 Hello, hello, hello and welcome, I'm Miron Khalili and we are DM25, a radical political movement for Europe. This is another live discussion with our coordinating team featuring subversive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. And today, since it's Pride Month, we're talking about transgender rights. Let's be clear about something before we get started. DM25, that's our movement, right here, has always stood firmly against transphobia and against all forms of discrimination. We want to see a society that respects and affirms all identities and orientations. So there's no question for us here about the validity of transgender rights. If you're looking for that kind of discussion, you're probably watching the wrong video. Now with that said, in Europe, the quest for these rights has seen significant progress in recent years. 11 countries now have laws allowing people to change their legal gender based on self identification without requiring medical procedures like surgery or hormone therapy, hormone therapy. But in mainstream media and wider society, there's quite a debate going on around this topic, including the potential implications of self ID laws on women's only spaces, the question of youth transitioning and the impact on sports competitions. Now as a result, the trans community has been attacked not only by the right, but also by some on the left, and in the LGBT community itself. Some of these debates are a smokescreen for veiled bigotry, but some of these arguments are legitimate reservations in response to rapidly evolving gender norms. And if so, if that's true, how do we as a movement address some of these concerns and help get as many people on board as possible with the goal of equal rights and dignity for trans people. Our panel of activists and policy experts from across Europe will be weighing in on this quite a hot button and divisive topic and then there's you, you out there, watching us live on YouTube if you've got thoughts, questions, rants, comments, something just popped into your mind and you think it's relevant. Please put it into the YouTube chat and we'll put it to our panel. Now, let's move to Duchamp Iovic from Montenegro. The floor is yours Duchamp. Let me start by saying that trans people are who they say they are and they deserve to live their lives without being constantly questioned or told that they aren't who they say they are. The right to self-determination is an ultimate leftist concept, in fact, and one of our core values. Look at the decolonization process and how important it was not to let others define your identity, but to own it yourself. Trans people are fighting for all of us because if we can question assigned sex, then we can question means of production, capitalism, prisons, and other things that are seen as default. We cannot be free until we dismantle this cis-normative, heteronormative, white supremacist, capitalistic patriarchy. It's a whole set of values that need to be attacked, targeted. Utterly, it's also a class issue. Trans rights are also a class issue with so many trans and gender non-conforming people living on the edge of poverty because their family doesn't support them because they cannot find the jobs a place to rent and so on. But first, let me debunk some of the myths and some of the things that were mentioned in the introduction in order to clear everything up. Quote unquote, a lot of people regret going to surgery. Well, only 1% of trans people that underwent surgery regret that at one point in their lives with majority of those 1% are ascribing it to the external factors like couldn't find job pressure from family to the transition and so on. Just to give an example, many, many more people regret, for example, having tattoos or undergoing knee surgery even. The second myth is they shouldn't put transition on children. Everyone remembers of kids when there are certain rights that trans people are asking for. And to let you know trans kids are not undergoing transition operation. They can just take puberty blockers that are safe and reversible and they can be taken after certain consultations by gender specialists and psychologists. And it is proven that it's safe and sound. We can go into details if needed, but the point is that everyone starts to be biologists when trans people are being discussed just like whenever everyone starts to be nutritionists when animal rights are being discussed. The third myth is what about trans women in sports? Well, to note, sports is a capitalist notion. Now professional elite sports is a capitalist notion and it should be approached in that way. But besides that, there are nine categories of sexual orientation, sexual characteristics, sorry, such as shape and form of chromosomes, length of internal organs, testosterone and estrogen ratio, etc. That define either our biological sex and let alone gender. And even our biological sex cannot be measured because of those nine categories due to the financial and time constraints and privacy issues, first of all. Besides that, when you see a trans woman and cisgender woman, you can easily mix them up on who is more masculine according to your perception. The fourth myth is what about trans men using women toilets? Trans women using women toilets, more than 300 international anti domestic abuse organizations supported using toilets based on self identification because there are no significant cases of misbehavior. Trans people are however victims when they use toilets that are quote unquote in accordance to the sex assigned at their birth. So let's not lie to ourselves. All of the data points to this. So it was never about toilets. Just like during the segregation, racial segregation, it was never about who can use specific water, fountains, blacks or whites. Last myth is that it's just a trend. That it's just a feud. Well, it's not a new thing in India. There were three genders, while many indigenous tribes had five genders or more. Our thinking of gender is based on false dichotomy based on enlightenment era in the West that got spread due to imperialism. And now on a more practical level. Let me give you just to get out of the theory and numbers and stats because and pure theory because then it's easy to forget someone suffering to give you an example of my friend. He's a trans man trans man that had to underwent multiple exorcism in the chambers of orthodox church, which was forced to him by his parents. And when that didn't work surprise surprise, his own parents threw him out of the house. He's working since he was 17 and he never managed to finish his high school. And my other friend said something that still resonates with me until this day. Quote, I always feel so much safer with identity with liberals, rather than with leftists. Leftists tend to over intellectualize and over interpret everything while telling you what you don't know about yourself. The liberals see that it's self identification that counts. This friend of mine is an other he's by the way, and I think this notion is something that we should all think about. Ultimately, I'm sorry, but it's not on these people to educate you or us or anyone else while they are literally barely surviving through their trauma. At least please don't ask them for that while you are denying their identity. A lot of people are opinionated on this topic without having the right knowledge and imagine how many wounds you can inflict with some potential potentially aggressive attitudes. Just ask and discuss, but with a good intention, open heart and open mind. And remember that 41% of transgender and gender non conforming people attempt suicide at some point in their life. This is not due to some internal issues but because of psychological concept called minority stress, which states that mental health distress is often the result of hostile or stressful social environment. Progress of society is measured by the well being of most vulnerable people and not in any other way. Trans rights are human rights, but they are also a matter of class issue. Therefore, I call trans and gender non conforming people who are listening to this to join the M25. And those of you who are older DDMS to run for our coordinating collective elections this summer, and have your voices heard even stronger. Thank you Duchenne, can I ask you something it's very important everything that you've laid out there and I think you especially for sharing some of your personal anecdotes that you mentioned on the subjects at issue. So, we understand your position clearly and let me play the devil's advocate there's that expression. Second, what is your position on self ID laws with regard to single transgender people single sex basis. Do you think that the idea that certain giving rights to a certain group and can take away rights from another group in this case women or as I mentioned in the introduction, other, you know, gays and lesbians who do you think that's that's a total non debate, or is there a way through it that you would advocate. I think that that's actually the one of the biggest problems in humans history to think that rights are some kind of pool and the limited resources. Like if we give someone right that those rights should be taken away from someone else. I don't think that's that's the point at all. Look at some other emancipation processes like decolonization like racial liberation gay liberation and so on and so on. So you don't take away anything from someone else if you give someone the right certain rights. Okay, but at some point we have to decide like I mean the case of for example, what a big subject which is going on in the UK press, for example at the moment. And I mentioned these because these are like cultural lightning rods, whether I agree with these takes or not. There's a big debate about prisons where we put where transgender transgender women should go in terms of like which prison should be the advocate with its advocated to etc. Because of the risk of sexual violence. What's your, what's your view in terms of how to how to sew that policy needles thread that policy. I don't know why you're here but you get what I mean it's a it's a it's a difficult topic where would you fall in it. When you look at the data there has been a lot of problems with trans woman who are staying in men in men prisons as I said in in the parallel with the bedroom it goes the same for me. I imagine how molested they are going to be at the center of some patriarchal values as trans woman who is staying with cisgender men. Of course I'm not generalizing people in prison at all. They, a lot of those people are just the victims of certain systems but yes you get my point. Thank you. You did you've got your hand up and then if we can move to some of the other speakers that want to speak out you did first go. Yeah just on this particular issue I think it's also a bit of a red herring because most of these spaces prisons accepted, but most of the women only spaces like shelters for battered women and so on. They have their own policy they can decide who they will let in or not and if they get the impression that someone is a predator they're not going to let that person in no matter whether the person presents as a woman presents as man claims to be this claims to be the other has a passport saying they whatever they make the decision right they're not required to accept anyone who is going to be a danger, and they will want to accept anyone who has been battered by their husband so obviously. And they're also not going to care the other way or at least a very much hope that they wouldn't care if they see a battered woman and the passport still says that their mail because they haven't managed to to get this signed over legally in some countries it takes years and years. Yes, this should be up to these institutions, and in most cases, it is up to the institutions to protect everyone whom they serve. And the same goes in a way to with with prisons obviously if they have someone who is going to be a danger for any other inmate. This person separate from the other inmates and it totally doesn't matter what what gender the person is, according to their passport according to their own feelings. And this does not enter the equation. Okay. Thank you you did Lucas Lucas for borrow communications director. Yeah, just to, first of all, I just wanted to on this particular issue just a second tuition and in unit as well and to say again that if you look at the data. It shows that trans people are actually more vulnerable than cisgender people in spaces like prisons as well. And which, you know, kind of mirrors the situation with other, you know, public spaces that are often mentioned such as public restrooms as to try and put in his isn't in his introduction as well. I wanted to just quickly draw attention to two pieces of news that came out yesterday. You know, coincidentally here with our with our discussion. First, a former female football player from play with the Swedish national team Miller Fisher said that during the 2011 World Cup, the entire team. And I believe maybe the of all of the teams present at the World Cup at that tournament. All the players were at some point forced to show their genitals to prove that they were women, because there are accusations of transgender women, or even men disguised as women playing and in one or some of the teams. And then the other, you know, even more unfortunate piece of news coming from Canada doing track meets at a small city I don't have the name in front of me right now. A girl, a nine year old girl. Some grandparents of a classmate of hers who was competing in the same event fight to force her to show her genitals to for in order to prove that she was that she was that she was a woman she was assigned female at birth identifies as a woman. Nine years old. So that happened, you know, last week I'm presuming. So just to draw the point here that these discussions, you know, a lot of people who come into this discussions with bad faith, in my opinion, they're trying to claim that they're defending the rights of women. Whereas, I think this this whole. This fever pitch that we've reached on with this public debates on on on transitions and that the bigotry that's that's rampant these days, that actually hurts, you know, to gender women as well, not only trans people as is obvious. In terms of, what can we say and, you know, what can we do so that people out there who aren't bigots who are just as you said in your in the beginning man who are just confused at the, you know, everything that's going on how things have changed so rapidly in the past few years. Look, I think that things have changed rapidly because, unfortunately, in our society, up until recently, it was taboo to even discuss these things, you know, to even identify yourself as Esther and Jenna. And as a matter of fact, not long ago, you know, for, for gay people, non trans, you know, gay people that was also, you know, it was unsafe still is in a lot of places. As a matter of fact, you're risking death penalty in some in some in some places, if you dare to live your life freely as as a homosexual not only imagine as a trans person but also as a as a homosexual. So, you know, I come from a background in a culture and that, you know, when I was growing up, I was, I learned that, you know, homosexuals, transgender people creepy when general that they were deviant that there was something wrong with their behavior. And what happens is you, you grow, you inform yourself, you start asking questions, you, you start seeing the humanity in these people, you start to ask yourself, why shouldn't they have the same fundamental rights that that we enjoy, you know, why shouldn't gay people be allowed to marry, for instance, and leave their lives openly and freely. And I think the same goes here. I know that things are changing rapidly but I didn't have the day, you know, trans people just like the rest of us, just like cisgender people, just like, you know, gay men just like lesbians, they're just trying to live their lives to the fullest and not be afraid of expressing themselves. And, you know, risking the stigma that comes with it, risking violence in a lot of cases. And I think it's our duty as the left and as progressives to support that and to dispel those myths. Thanks, Lucas. On that topic of transgender women in sports. I saw who was it. It's one of you sent it to me was a Neil deGrasse Tyson. He had a, he had a proposed solution to this and I want to know what you think about it. What he argues is look, we've categorized sports already by male and female. Okay, in the beginning I think it was just male sports and then female sports that came about for obvious reasons. Once there was equality equal rights between men and women, we had male and female sports for reasons of different, different biological and different physical strength. So, why don't we now that we have this issue with regard to transgender women's sport. Why don't we measure what we create more categories for example, like hormone levels, or the if in tennis the speed at which you can serve etc. I mean what he's saying is using the model that we have in sports already which is that that you don't you don't put a heavy weight together with a featherweight in wrestling or boxing. So, his solution is like more categories, I think that makes sense. And I think it would make for a fair competition which is I think what's that issue here, at least for most people that are enjoying sports and are crying foul with this idea. What do you think about that. I know it was my turn but I would let Dushan answer because he just put his hand on. I think he will have something to say about it. Dushan, what would you say to Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just a short one. Yeah, it makes sense and we can make a bunch of categories. Also, I don't know, on average black people run faster than white but no one proposed right segregation in sports. You know, that's why I want to say and that's why I said I don't think it was really about women's sports. I did a little social experiment when I posted the story about trans woman in sports. A lot of women, cisgender women liked the story and I got four replies all by males, of course saying that it's not fair towards women. And I can bet that they never watched a single women's sport game. I can literally bet if they watched, maybe they watched volleyball in order to sexually objectify women. But I don't think that it was the problem of sports. I think that is just something that we are trying to find some needle in. How do you say that? Dushan, before I bring in Maya, can I take issue with something and push back on you a little bit here? Because there is this thing in this debate. I know it's a very charged debate but what you've just done there to my mind is you've assigned bad faith to the people who you're arguing with rather than arguing the subject on the merits of what they're saying. You're supposing that that's their background and therefore of course they would say this. No, I'm not saying that for all the people. I'm saying that for those four people. No, for those four people. Okay, but you're making a general point by using those four people as an example. I'm not criticizing you personally. I'm just criticizing this debating tactic on this subject because what ends up happening then is you end up not being able to argue things on the merits and no one is any the wiser. People just dig into their positions. Things become polarized. What do you think? I can always debate with logic as well. Like only two trans women ever went to the Olympics in swimming in the professional sport and they didn't win anything. So that's why I say it's just a point of mid-busting. It's not really about this, I think, but let's see. Okay, okay. Maya Petrovich from Serbia. Yeah, but you're based in Montenegro now, aren't you? Yeah, from Serbia and Montenegro. Well, for me, it's interesting. I have to say actually that we are talking about this issue in the 21st century. And I started thinking about trans rights because I really thought that we were in a way done with it, like with the LGBTIQ. Of course, it is these rights we have to think about and in a way we have to fight for them all the time. But in a way, I thought that this was one fight. But then with all the new conservative, I would say models of thinking and ideologies that have been going around Europe and the West, which is odd in the last, we can say, 10 years. I would say that this question that we're talking about today has to do a lot with this kind of right-wing ideology and that we should look at it in this way. So why are we talking about transphobia today at all? I think that this rising transphobia and even turf movements and hijacking of this kind of discourse by a movement that calls itself radical feminist. And it is, I know that you said that we would not talk about these kinds of things, but I think we cannot not talk about them because it's very important because these are the issues that are happening very wildly all over Western Europe and America as we speak. Also, I think that it has to do also with the rise of the right-wing movements, the anti-abortion laws, and I think that it goes all together because we're talking about, for me, a red line when I talk to somebody on ideological points because I can sit across someone that's right-winger. And we can agree on a lot of stuff. We can agree about some anti-globalist issues. We can agree on sovereignty. We can agree on privatization. But my red line is always LGBTIQ issues because there is going to be a point where this person that I'm talking about is going to exclude another person because this person is different. And I think today the attack on trans people, and of course we know a lot of people like JK Rowling that has been an advocate, maybe one of the most famous advocates of this kind of movement. And I think we should talk about this because I think it's very dangerous actually because I think that hijacking feminist position and using it to talk in a very exclusionary way about another group of people that is very vulnerable is, in a way, for me, fascistic behavior because you're excluding and talking about people that, as Dushan mentioned and all the things he said and also Lukas, are very vulnerable and have lives that are already hard enough. And I think the last thing that they need is somebody excluding them after all the fights we had. And this alliance that actually happened between something that is called radical, which for me should be something that is progressive and probably, I don't know, a third or fourth wave of feminism has to do also with this kind of feminism that we're also talking about that is very much a white middle class feminism that is completely not thinking about these decolonial issues. So we're not talking about the feminism that has to do with class issues. And I think that trans issues are very much related to class issues because a very important thing that Dushan said is that most of the trans people because they have to, because they're kicked out of their homes, have to live on their own and are mostly in this poorer spectrum. So they mostly have issues that are class related. So for me it was also I would give an example from my country, from Serbia, it was very interesting that the 10th movement actually was mostly not so much related to the right wing movement because of course they are always not just there but they're anti-LGBT IQ at all. So we don't think about them at all but for me it was very interesting that it was also related to radical left movements and it was related to feminist movements. There are two organizations in Serbia, one is Marks21, had not the whole organization but one person from the organization and the other one is Women's Solidarity. We're both related to the tech movement and they were very vocal in this issue. And I think that this is what we should think about why has a very, I can say potentially radical movement like the left and like the feminist movement. Why did they hijack the freedom of people to be what they are and are now invoking the things that the right movement should invoke. In a way we were used to the right wing talking these kinds of things but why are we today looking at the liberals and the left talking about this kind of exclusion. For me it is an essential thing that we should talk about when we talk about that. Can I push back on one thing that you said I mean I certainly didn't take anything off the table from the beginning of this conversation because I mean anyone can say whatever they want on this. But when we talk about turf for example which stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist that's essentially a slur there's nobody who would identify as tough. Okay, and for me, what that does is it, it kind of shuts down debate, it shuts down any, any conversation any any outreach towards any group of people that you're that you're labeling in this way, which no criticism of you but I don't find that. I don't find that constructive. I don't think it's it's going to help us reach people that feel that don't identify as toughs but may also have some questions about how things are changing which is the subject of this of this live stream so how would you respond to that. Well, I would respond. I think the basic thing that also Dushan mentioned is that if we are talking about freedom today and we're if you're we're talking about freedom in a radical left way we cannot exclude somebody because this somebody wants to be what he thinks he is and in and being a trans person does not in any kind of way. It's not in any kind of way a problem to another person it's not like you're being a trans person you're attacking somebody else. I'm not taking issue with that. No, yes, the official is very well I think that it is when when we have a position of radical feminist include excluding trans people. I think turf is something that completely goes with them. They are radical feminists they say they are radical feminists and they are excluding trans people. So what is the problem calling them turf because they are actually identify. No, no, no, but okay we can then we can call them radical feminists that are excluding trans people so we're never going to call them turf again. We are calling them this new kind of way that it's completely different than turf that might be a little more constructive. Okay, I don't think it's going to be constructed and I don't think that people I think that matter and you're trying now it's the same as trying to make somebody Trump be somebody he is not be Bernie Sanders. It's like a really odd what you're trying to do so you're saying we're going to have people that do not identify as turf but have problem with trans people. And we by identify identifying them as terfs are going to what they are not going to they are not going to be in dialogue with us at the first place, because I think that what you were talking about like with prisons. I do not think that the problem with prisons by by putting a trans woman in the prison and thinking that this person, because she was a male sometimes is going to attack somebody. Just because she was a male is really odd because it's in the presence it's a question of power and dominance, like everywhere in life so you will have women being violent against women by dominance and hierarchy not by sex in the prison. Okay. Okay, I think you and I agree on the on the substance I just I just don't like alienate you don't like turf. I think this is what the left does it alienates people with terms to fascist, etc, and it ends up reducing the number of people that it can appeal to. And it ends up preaching to acquire which keeps the left marginalized. I want to see equal rights for trans people. The goal of this conversation is also how we can, how we can do that. You and I are having an agreement on strategy, but maybe a disagreement on tactics. No, just just one one one sentence just one sentence on this, because I think that the big problem you are saying is that you think we are excluding some people but I think that we are excluding these people by saying the sentence. That trans rights are right. With that you're going to exclude JK Rowling, because she thinks that trans rights are not right. They should not have the same rights because three dots. Well, I would agree with you that bigots are not our target audience here. Yeah, but with you that JK Rowling would include that from her public statements that certainly not what she said but anyway I'm not here to defend or or criticize Can I read out some comments from the chat interesting exchange they might wish we should come back to it. Oxana to keyness is I believe self ideas a policy creates more problems than it solves women are the ones that are overwhelmingly paying the price for it. Andrew JB says sex is what's between your legs gender is what's between your ears. It's difficult to compare one subjective feeling of maleness or femaleness to another's and control data says disagreeing with aspects of gender identity slash theory slash queer theory is not necessarily bigoted. I think maybe he or she is putting on their finger on something quite important there which is the academic or they the academic way that left people talk and how that can also alienate when we really talking about very practical issues about how we can all live together and thrive. Let me bring in Ivana Ivana and out of itch also from Serbia we're sort of staying Serbia Montenegro area at the moment in terms of the order but go for it about. Thanks. Someone in the chat said that this is a difficult topic, and it is, especially to find the words and not to offend anybody and not to say something that will be interpreted as stir or any label that can be given very easily I feel these days. So, after this heated discussion between you, Maya and Mehran, I would like to go in that direction that I mean, for DM I cannot speak for the public for the left and so on. I would like DM to be this safe space that Dushan was mentioning before for transgender people and so, but not just them I would that I would like DM to be safe space for everybody to express themselves and to ask an honest question, if, as you said, in introduction, the life is moving too fast for some people, and the topic is so divisive and it's bringing division within the LGBT plus community. So, let alone people that, you know, studied biology in school and they know that there is xx chromosome and xy chromosome, and we need to approach them in less intellectual less theoretical way I think I feel, because I'm also, you know middle aged I also have many many questions that I am intimidated to ask, because I am afraid that I will be labeled turf or whatnot. So, I would ask our comrades, who are, you know, from all of the spectrums to be free to be vulnerable, because when we are vulnerable and when we are sharing stories, like Dushan's friend went through hell, because of his self determination to be anything, but that also happened to gay people to drag addicts, speaking about the same church, right, because it's not exclusive it's not just for trans people, and it is the result of the patriarchy. And there is a whole spectrum of victims of patriarchy. And we should encourage and create this safe space for the victims to share their trauma, because then we can identify then we can understand why this person feels like they feel, if we couldn't, you know, comprehend from it from our background experience, education, and so on. We need to understand that we are talking to a bubble, and that we need to explain to our moms, you know, to our parents, whatever gender, what is this now, because it's new for them. And it in USA, it's even more extreme. And all of these questions that are coming from the sports and toilets and very, very young children being allowed in US, I don't know about Europe, but in US to go through the hormone blockators and so on. And it does make irreversible changes, for example, for the voice strings, right, you cannot reverse that without the surgery. So there are things that are confusing. Okay, that's what I'm trying to say. There are things that we should be able to explain, we should be able to bring a person with this kind of experience, none of us is trans here. So we are again talking about intellectual academic point of view. And of course, we should embrace our differences and make them a value that they are and not split the differences even more, and do what the right likes us to do, create more divisions. Thank you, Ivana. Something that I would like to share with you, I called up a friend of mine before I did this debate, because I also was feeling a bit like, oh, what's happening, it's live, how are we going to think about this, what if we use the wrong terms, etc. And I asked her, she's not an activist, but I would consider her a very clued in, an old friend of mine. And I phoned her up and I said, what's your take on this issue, and she's progressive. And she said, you're the first person who's asked me this. I feel very uncomfortable. She said, these debates. For some reason on this topic, you've very quickly get categorized. There's a big category, there's an ally category, there's no, hey, I've still got questions. And I think that's a, that's a fair position to take. And do channel so you outline that in the beginning so long as it's done with an open mind and open heart. That should be totally legitimate. I think probably one of the problems with this discussion, and maybe one of the reasons why there's been so much backlash and so much rage going out there in the media is because there has been no space allowed from proponents of this cause this very political cause for those kinds of debates without the charge of bigger being thrown around. I'm here. I'm here. Yeah. What do you think. Hi, greetings everybody. Let me first answer the question and then come back. I want to start my own thoughts. And the question about how to ally with the cause of the trans community is, you know, as it always is with anything else in a sense. We talked about public education, the earlier part of the, of the call of the live stream, but also active solidarity and also involvement with the causes so it's, it's always being on the trenches, cross pollinating, working together struggling as with, as we've been talking about before. So that's always important. And as well as cross pollination between people because that's where the ideas and also the heart to heart happens, you know, we talk about the head a lot, but the heart to happens in the struggle on the street. And that also sometimes opens up the space to talk to the trans community as well in a positive way about their tactics to because some one of our concerns, for example about militarization and the war industry is you see the war industry is really quite within the pride community, you know, in terms of the weapons manufacturers are marching with the rest of the trans activists and so on and then this is maybe something to discuss in a sense because we don't want to, because you know weapons don't discriminate based on a person's gender identity and if the pride community is well about inclusivity and we need to save lives. So those those kind of discussions and matters can also come about through transporting it happens by a common struggle. So that was the case by the way when I was researching I also saw people standing in front of the prior recruitment center of the US Army protesting and saying drop love not bombs and things like that so it's not of course exclusive. And we, maybe the second point I wanted to make was there's a to add to the table is there's a lot of deep knowledge within the indigenous communities throughout the world. Because the indigenous communities didn't necessarily have this binary system of male female throughout their tens of thousands of years of development cultural development. For example, in First Nations in North America, the head is a cultural practice and belief and very strongly held belief of two spirits people and that's a blessing that's given to them, where people can see things through more fluid gender perspective. And where people of Ethiopia, for example, the Dogon tribe of Mali, and so on and so on this multiple examples of how in within the first native first nations and indigenous communities this, you know, this, this, it's part of, it's a normal thing, you know, it's not an unusual concept. In that sense. And in fact, I'm on the research that I was doing for this live stream, the shaman from the Dogoba tribe, folks about the fact that gender is not dependent on sexual and autonomy, but it's purely energetic and other tribe. We don't assign gender until way off the puberty and so on, you know, very different from how we do it. So there's a lot more to unpack here and we don't always have to only rely on our knowledge and our cultural practices and so on we can actually go to other cultures and learn a lot from them on this issue. Because a lot of these indigenous cultures have been much more heart based and are able to have come up with mechanisms to work with each other because at the end of the day it's about the heart. You know, thank you. Thank you very much for that. I'm here. Some comments from the chat. Salim use CFG says trans people commonly face bigotry and life threatening situations asking them to keep calm while we continue to debate the terms of their existence is a bit much. I don't think we're debating the terms of their existence but I take the general point at 23 straw bale says I'm far from right wing but I wanted discussion about women spaces that doesn't make me a fascist. And Mickey mix says, in relation to our discussion on prisons, a bullish prison. What the hell I thought you were radicals. Johannes Johannes fair from Berlin. Thank you. Yes, well it's prisons. When I think that's that's the end goal. And we want to live in a society at least I do that doesn't have prisons anymore. I think I want to share that I have a transistor. So close family member. And that came out quite late in her life. I spoke to her several times about this and I think that's actually also it has been mentioned here before but I think that's the best way, you know, to to go about this topic is try to reach out to someone personally, not necessarily on Twitter, or in YouTube comments personally, and speak about their experiences, how it was for them. And you will probably hear things like you know, that person was told in school and everywhere else. It was basically never, you know, never knew that to be a trans person is not only happening to her. It's happening, you know, it's happening to many people and then the whole society and the social circles around you, tell you that, you know, you're wrong, you're sick, you know, this and that. And I think that's a really, really hard suppression that we all have to learn about that's still happening in our societies. I think it's just, and I'll keep this very short. And that's just my call for everyone, you know, it's very important to have discussions on that because I also know, you know, in the social circles around me, how the reaction was from different people to this revelation that there was, I can gladly say that there was no, you know, no, no hate or something coming up, but a lot of people being uncomfortable with it, which I think that's my personal evaluation of this. It's not based on education, but from my experience, it's, it's putting also questions to yourself to your kind of, you know, identity sometimes or you're like, you know, strict as we are teach mostly still that, you know, there's to this man women. And I think it's really important that we break this up to give also space for those people that, you know, don't see themselves as those two and I don't think that's any, you know, loss for anyone that sees themselves as a man or a woman. And, but maybe that's something that we all have to work through a little bit. And so, you know, when these questions are put to us and we are comfortable about something let's try to open up let's try to personally speak to people, maybe not necessarily start a Facebook discussion but you know personally reach out to people that Thanks. Thanks for that you have some very important point there because just by virtue of where we all are today with a smartphone in our pocket. A lot of this debate is happening online, which makes it, you know, it flattens debate, you end up adopting very maximalist positions. There's kind of a craziness about the whole thing and I don't know what the answer is in terms of like circumventing that just face to face discussions are difficult to scale, but I know it's certainly need much, much more of that. Okay, David, David Castro. Well, thank you. Sorry for interrupting. I'm feeling a bit sick so I hope that what I say makes some sense in some way. First of all, I just wanted to say that, obviously, people must be able to express themselves as they want. We shouldn't want to live in a society where this is not the case. That's something that we absolutely have to stand behind. And we need to move to a culture of acceptance and not just tolerance because I think as. As Giseg has mentioned in the past, talking about tolerance is just an horrific thing, you know, you don't get people who never ask straight people to tolerate their existence, you know, in the same way that black people are not asking white people to tolerate their skin color and so on and so forth. It's about accepting people for who they are. And that's the kind of society that we need to move towards, you know, where there's more acceptance and speaking more personally about the question that we're discussing right now. I do actually personally know people who have transitioned as well and now I know exactly how difficult it is to for somebody to go through that process, even though of course I haven't done it myself. And at the same time, it's really important, I think when we talk to people who have reservations who have simple questions about all kinds of topics, not just this one, that we shouldn't be absolute absolutists in any way shape or form and so quick to label people X, Y or Z, unless they're effectively that, you know, and unless there's proof that effect, you know, why am I saying this I'm saying this because I grew up in the village of 800 people. And I can tell you guys that 99% of those people there today have questions about all sorts of things that they're not used to, you know, they haven't socialized with, you know, people gay people they haven't socialized with with trans people they haven't socialized with the leftist most of them, you know, they haven't socialized with the people from all kinds of backgrounds from different nationalities from different backgrounds and so on and so forth. I can also tell you for as a fact that grow having grown up in the small villages like I have a really great time and these people are very lovely to me they were very nice to me they're very what they're very educated in many ways. And maybe some of them probably the likelihood is that some of them are transphobic or homophobic or a bunch of other things. But many of them aren't many of them simply have some questions that they want to talk about they want to have a start a discussion. And so if I go there. And, you know, coming from my life experience and if I go there and I start telling them about, you know, if they ask me some questions in response to something that I'm saying doesn't matter what the topic that they they're like, Okay, I've never heard of that I didn't know you could that was the case in in Belgium I didn't know that was the case in England or whatever that I need to be able to talk to them in a way that doesn't make them feel stupid and doesn't make them feel as if like, they're just silly and uneducated and whatever whatever whatever you know I'm not saying that some of the views that there might have are not transphobic and homophobic I'm just saying that we have to be able to talk to these people. Otherwise there will never be any kind of progress. And that's the point that I think we need to need to make an ultimate leisure to finish off what I wanted to say here. We need more love obviously you know and less hate, we need to be understanding with people and so on and so forth of course with some people you can't. They're, you know, quite honestly beyond saving in my opinion you know there is like a fringe for a very fringe section of society that is just difficult to reach with our ideas. Public opinion is not static public opinion moves, and we have to be able to change people's minds and hearts if we don't do that, what is the point of us even existing as a movement, you know, what is the point, honestly. So that's what I wanted to to finish on sorry for taking so long, I know we're almost on the limit. But yeah, thanks for thanks for giving me the opportunity and if I said something that is a little bit weird. I don't mind sticking on the illness but thanks for that. And I like that that's a common humanity rather than a common enemy approach. I think it's what you're getting at the which I think could be very useful. Let's bring you back in to close because we're at the top of the hour. Yes. First, let me say that we need I think we need both the intellectual, the knowledge, not the intellectual actuality but the knowledge about these topics and emotions and contact with these people. For example, my girlfriend works in the trans right organization my best friend works in the same organization as well. And I've been writing a lot of research and regular articles about trans people and last but not least I'm a non binary man myself. After having so much contact and knowledge about these topics. I need to emphasize one thing that we are we are sometimes as a left making substitution of thesis you know talking more about the victims of labeling of transphobia, then the victims of patriarchal regime. In terms of trans people that are experiencing this this normative forms that are very very oppressive. And besides that, why I say that we also need knowledge. Well, because people are like attacking on the base of knowledge but that's not that's knowledge based on the old science that was based on 50 years ago, quote unquote evidence as you know science is progressing every day. So, there are a tons of variation in chromosomes, like none of us actually know what our chromosomes looks like, how big is our X chromosome how big is our epsilon chromosome do you really know what they look like and none of us actually can learn that we are somewhere in the spectrum during our whole life because we never check those things I bet one of the people here in the call are somewhere on the intersex spectrum at least, at least one. At the end of the day, like David is writing in the comments it doesn't even matter what this chromosomes look like. And when you, when you want to, when you are afraid of certain change, and when there has been some debate like, yeah, but we cannot trust this new research or whatever. What do you think has more money to fund false research trans people and small NGOs fighting for human rights, or the oligarchy that wants to portray gender minority as the threat, and not the global capital is which is the real threat. Therefore, we should keep in mind that the only dangerous minority is the rich, not trans people, not gay people, not women, and so on and so on and so on. Thank you for that. Let me close with something I'd like to, I'd like to share it's from a leftist writer and some of the topics that we've discussed today, especially with regard to the more kind of academic topics. This is his take on how to, how to advance the cause of trans rights, which I think is worth thinking about he says the question is not whether to defend trans people, we have a profound moral and political duty to do so the question is how best to defend them and he's advocating something what he calls a normie trans politics he says a normie trans politics would emphasize equal rights and dignity, rather than academic conceptions of gender identity. He wouldn't get bogged down in abstract questions about the gender binary, which can sound extremist. And I think there's something to that it's definitely something that we should debate again, and there's so much more to discuss on this topic. But we know we've hardly touched even, you know, we didn't even really address the three issues of where there's there's a clash here but I think this has been a really important conversation and I want to thank all you guys for, you know, doing it with with open hearts and open minds, and including you guys on the chat and if you out there would be interested in advancing the cause of transgender rights and joining us to do it if you like what you hear. So please just join us we have a address it is dm25.org slash join and within a few minutes you can be a member, and you can help very quickly to get involved in our policies, whether it's for trans rights or whole array of other aggressive issues. Thank you again to the panel. See you again at the same time same place.