 It's one o'clock, time to begin. We're very excited to have this special session for you today on the founding of the Mises Institute. We have an informal panel discussion set up. The panelists include some of the faculty that you've met already this week, myself, along with Professor Salerno and Professor Gordon. All of us were involved with the Mises Institute from its earliest years. We also have a special guest, Ms. Pat Barnett. Pat has been... Pat was one of the Mises Institute's first employees. She has served in a variety of roles at the Institute, recently retired as the executive vice president of the Mises Institute, but she still serves on the Institute's board and performs a number of consulting roles. And then the gentleman in the middle, I'm sure needs no introduction whatsoever, the founder of the Mises Institute, Mr. Lou Rockwell. I was asked to moderate this discussion given that I'm the most moderate person among the faculty. And the youngest, just barely, that's true. So I'm gonna pose some questions to the panelists and allow them to sort of freestyle their responses, and then we'll have some time at the end for you guys to ask some questions. Let me start, of course, with Lou. And Lou, you have written and spoken about the founding of the Institute many times, and some of the students may have watched those videos or read some of those articles. So they probably know how you were involved with the conservative intellectual movement in the 1960s and 70s, how you met Ludwig von Mises when you were an editor for Arlington House, which was translating and publishing some of Mises' works in English, and how you went on to found the Mises Institute in 1982. Now, Murray Rothbard was one of your co-conspirators in the early days, and Murray served as the academic vice president or the chief academic officer of the Mises Institute from the beginning. So could you maybe start by telling us how you met Murray Rothbard and what role Murray played in sort of shaping your vision of the Institute? I first met Murray Rothbard in the 1970s, when he was writing books for Arlington House publishers. Arlington House was the company founded by Neil McCaffrey, the great scholar-entrepreneur. So a great man, in fact, I'll never forget the day that he invited me into his office, and he said, how'd you like to be Ludwig von Mises' editor? Oh, he smokes, I thought it had to be tremendous. He says that three of his books were out of print, which was a terrible thing. We wanted to bring them back into print, and also he's got a monograph that he's written on the history of the Austrian school that we want to publish, and we want you to handle all that. I said, well, I'd be delighted, of course. So I did it, and I read those three books, and I was aware of Mises before that, and of course I knew he was a great man, and I'd read some of his smaller works, but this is when I really began to study him, and I'm near the great, let it read who was the founder and the president of the Foundation for Economic Education, which in those days was entirely an Austrian organization. He held the celebration of the publication of these three books, and at that event I was able to have dinner with Margaret and Ludwig von Mises. I'd dealt with them on the phone before this, and Mises, I must say this was a life-changing experience for me. Murray Rothbard later wrote about Mises. He said he was a representative of an older and a better civilization, and he sure was. And just the way he dressed, his manners, his manner of speaking, his table manners, everything about him, just astounding and made a permanent impression on me, and also his wife Margaret von Mises, who I later didn't have much to do with when I started the institute. So I went on to have several other jobs, but about 10 years later, I was concerned that it seemed to me that Mises' writings, his person becoming less and less interesting to people, he was getting less and less attention in the academic world and just in the general public, and I thought this is not a good thing, and this time I was working as the associate director of the Law and Economic Center at Emory University, which was a free market, but unfortunately, classical, not non-Austrian organization, and although Henry Manny was the director, like Mises had sympathies with Mises, unusual among those people. But one day I was looking around the room and it was a smaller organization than Mises Institute is now today, but it was still a big organization to me, and I looked around it and I thought, I could do this. So I applied for a 501 C3 status, which in those days happened quite quickly, and got that, and then I incorporated it in the District of Columbia, and it's funny, but this seems counter-intuitive, but DC is actually a great place to have your organization registered, and they pay far less and much less attention to you than if you were to be unlikely enough to be registered in California or New York or in most of the other states. So I set up the institute there and after about a year, I thought we needed to be affiliated with the university probably wrongly, but I was moving to Auburn, which I think was a good thing, and it, one of the first, after I started the institute, the first thing I did at a meeting with Margaret von Mises and asking her to become our first chairman, and she said, I know you just want my name, she says, you can have my name, but you don't want my input, otherwise I said, of course I do, because I knew she'd been, as Margaret had been late, called her a one-woman Mises industry, keeping his books in print and just promoting him all over the world. She was a brilliant lady, a great lady, and so I got to work with her for about 10 years before her death, and that was a great experience, but the first person that I talked to right after I had, I took Margaret to her favorite restaurant in New York, which was the Russian Tea Room, and then I, at the appointment of Murray Rothbard, and I said, Murray, would you become our academic vice-president of our inspiration? So he, the only time I've ever seen anybody do this, he actually jumped a little bit in the air and clapped his hands. He was so happy, so until his death, you can't imagine what a blessing it was to be able to talk to Murray every day, and to, he loved what he called sociology, which was gossip, with the libertarian movement. So just, and also Murray was like a comedian, he was like, you weren't around him for more than a minute before you're laughing out loud, just so funny, so interesting, so brilliant. I remember once being at a used academic store in New York City with him and a couple of other people, and people started sort of teasing him to see which books he'd read and what it was familiar with. It seemed like he was familiar with every single book in the bookstore. I'm sure that's not actually true, but probably pretty much true. I mean, in the areas that he was interested in, he just, what a great genius. And unlike Milton Friedman, not at all arrogant, unusual for somebody that brilliant and that important, entirely non-arrogant and happy to talk to anybody, always looking for smart students to do their dissertations on important subjects and he just, I must say I miss him every day still today. He just was the most extraordinary inspiration for all of us at the incident when he was here and even since his passing. Murray looking down on us and saying, Attaboy Lou and Attaboy, all you guys, it's just, you must be very, very pleased at what's happened to the Institute and to what we're doing because of course, what we're doing is even more necessary today than it's ever been in what's becoming almost a Marxist country, almost almost a Communist country. It's just unbelievable, but we're here to hold the flag of liberty and one of our most important programs is this one. Joe mentioned the other days, this is our 39th and more than 4,000 students graduate from this and they've had a tremendous effect on the profession and other businesses that they've gone into. So we look for that sort of thing from all of you too. We look for great successes and I must say this has been the greatest thing of my life to be able to be involved with the Institute all these years, just magnificent and we've got great plans ahead to be better and more successful, more influential and just keep an eye on us. So Lou, to many of us it seems like an Institute founded and operated by a visionary entrepreneur like yourself with a creative genius like Murray Rothbard also at the helm. That sounds like a no-brainer. I mean who wouldn't want an organization like that to succeed? I remember myself when I was an undergraduate student considering going to graduate school and I had already discovered the ideas of Mises and Rothbard independently but I saw a piece of paper on the wall. This was the pre-internet era and it was just a flyer that said Mises Institute, apply here for scholarships. I mean I was completely floored. I don't think I did the Murray dance clap thing but I was shocked to find out that someone had founded an Institute and named it for Ludwig von Mises who I thought had maybe been completely forgotten. At the same time we know that when you were getting the Institute started there were other individuals and organizations within the libertarian movement more broadly who were not totally enthusiastic about you starting the Mises Institute. Could you say just a few words about that and maybe how the landscape has changed thanks to the influence of this organization? I should also mention that I remember getting your letter. I phoned Murray Rothbard and I said Murray I've got this extraordinary letter from this student and I want to send it to you and I think you should phone him. Murray will read your letter and he did phone you. Yeah so that was... So I had a good friend who at this point was the head of the Koch Foundation and all that Koch was doing in those days academically and I wrote him and told him I was going to start the Institute and I liked his support and they had a lot of money of course. So he called me up and he said what the hell are you doing? The whole thing was a lot of bad language. What do you think you're doing? Do you realize how much money we've spent trying to get rid of Mises? He said we want to make... Hayek the key guy, we want to entirely forget Mises. But he realized that everybody hated Mises, that Milton Friedman hates Mises. He said well that's like a medal on Mises' chest if that's true. He said we're going to oppose everything you're doing we're not going to support you, we're going to oppose you. I said well it's too bad but okay. Because that actually stimulated me to get even more to really get going the fact that this huge enterprise that Murray Rothbard led up the Cotipus was going to oppose us but all their organizations, Reason Magazine and Raketa Center and so forth they've all been in opposition to us but it's okay. I must say it's probably unusual that when a multi-billionaire hates your guts and wants to get rid of you and you're still able to succeed it's pretty good. I think actually the fact that they did that was stimulating it actually it is more dedicated to getting to succeeding. That's true of Murray too of course. They had earlier Murray had been one of the co-founders of the Kato Institute and this was an unusual organization it was a stockholders organization even though a non-profit and Murray said let us keep your stock in our safe so that they can happen to it. So then later they took it and tossed Murray off the board and stole his stock so he talked to a lawyer and said you've got a good case but he said there's no way you can fight the Cokes they can spend incidents amount of money higher incidents than other lawyers and so Murray had to give that up but Murray eventually won and of course today I think Murray Rothbard is far better read than maybe even the Milton Friedman it's just a tremendous people all over the world read him and it's translated to Chinese and many many different languages and so Murray you're still our leader. Thank you. Let me turn to Pat for just a moment. Pat you were one of the first employee of the Mises Institute maybe Marty was first I'm not sure but could you tell us a little bit about what the institute was like in those early days did you ever imagine back then in the early 80s that we would eventually grow to the level of size and influence that we are today? Well it's hard to describe to you nowadays what things were like back then first of all I want to recognize I met Lou in 1982 when he was at the law and economics center and this was an idea that he was formulating and we have with us today one of the first board members who was still on the board Debbie Ayers who worked with Lou to help found the institute but when I met Lou the Mises Institute was literally his kitchen table he and Marty were moving around all over the place trying to get all of this started his wife Marty Rockwell who is with us today an unsung hero so Lou met John Denson who is also here today Judge Denson has several speeches that are on Mises.org but about the founding of the institute and how he and Lou met and how he was on the board of trustees at Auburn and brought Lou to Auburn but the very best one I think if you look up John Denson in the Mises library birth of the institute a speech he gave in Vienna in 2011 in great detail about the institute coming to Auburn so my first memories of the institute coming to Auburn Lou and Marty rolling up in a U-Haul with everything they owned and they booked a room at the heart of Auburn motel downtown now the heart of Auburn motel to say it was a dump is a luxury it was awful but Lou knew that I had worked on a database for another a non-profit organization in the years past and he said to me I think we've got these donations coming in I think we need to create a database could you come to Auburn and work with a programmer at Auburn University to create a database to keep track of our donors and our students and he said it shouldn't take but a few weeks so here I am 40 years later how's the database we donated the institute Lou had an arrangement with Auburn University where we sponsored economic students the first one was Mark Thornton who was getting his PhD at Auburn which meant they had to carry a lot of boxes I mean we were this was as Peter said pre-internet no websites everything was done by paper we had the university allowed us to have an office on campus in Thatch Hall very old building and so we were literally Marty and Lou and I in one office we had probably the first computer with a hard drive on campus Lou by the way very important for everyone to know he started the institute with his own savings this was his personal savings he had no grants he had no government money he would take a dime has a sense and won't so this was a huge investment and he had a child to support this wasn't just something he did on a whim but we had so we were crammed in this one room everything was done by paper so it was you wrote everything you wrote you had a typewriter I think we kept a typewriter in the archives here thank you letters were typed and everything we were on the Auburn campus so if you wanted to make a long distance call you had to dial the Auburn University Operator and then give them your department code and they said they would say they knew us all by name just from our voices they would say oh Mr Rockwell I'll patch you out to an outside line so that was when Lou called Murray Rothbard you had to go through the operator it was just everything was very very different but the faculty in the economics department at that time were very friendly to us we even sponsored the softball team for the department of economics we were called the Mises Mahlers we played teams like the biology department who were the fungus among us and somewhere in the Mises archives is a picture of a very young Mark Thornton and I on the softball team so it was great fun it was so exciting people we would open an envelope and there would be a hundred dollar donation with a note the way to go Lou get things started and it was so exciting in those very early days and it was all by the way a lot of the hard money people in those days donated their mailing lists which were like gold to Lou fundraising letters to get the institute started that's simply because of his reputation they wanted to see this movement get started as far as the conferences the summer conferences go if I'm not mistaken the first summer conference for students was held in 86 here at Auburn the first the next year we had a small conference at Dartmouth and one at Stanford and then we started here at Dartmouth and it was just amazing that the students and I must say here our students to us are family we still get phone calls and emails from people from 1986 who say let me tell you I've got this publication or this career change or these are pictures of my children and now pictures of my grandchildren but because Murray was such an integral part of this and he was so he loved the students he would stay up until late at night and they'd go to Denny's and have a patty melt and he would talk until 2 or 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning with these students and then the poor students had to get up the next morning and be at class at 8 o'clock but one of the funny stories was at Dartmouth back in those days the faculty had to stay in the dorms with the students because that was all we could afford and at Dartmouth it was a very old dorm and Hans Hoppe was on the faculty and it turns out there was a bat in his dorm room and he didn't discover he kept hearing something and he made the mistake of turning the light on so the bat just went crazy and started attacking him but you can just imagine how Hans Hoppe relays that story it was a Keynesian bat no doubt I can remember a story from those days when it was when the summer conference was here but for some reason I think the faculty were all going out to have a meal maybe at John Denson's house and I as a student was the driver somehow and so I'm driving this van in which is Murray Rothbard Walter Block, David Gordon Joe Salerno, Hans Hoppe basically the modern Austrian movement is in the van and I didn't really know how to drive this van very well these constant visions of plunging down a cliff and having the Austrian school end with me let me turn to David for just a moment let me just mention one quick thing about the softball softball team that Pat mentioned I was like Roger Garrison's title which was rejected unfortunately he wanted to call it the Vienna Ordinals so David you had met Murray Rothbard in the late 60s or early 70s and could you talk about how your relationship with Murray how you met Murray and how your relationship with Murray led to your involvement with the Mises Institute well I had read Murray quite early on I remember when Manny Economy and State came out in 1962 when I was in junior high and I read that but I didn't actually meet Murray until the late 70s I knew a libertarian in Los Angeles George Smith who was friends with Rothbard and he invited me to meet Murray who was visiting and I remember we went to Cantor's restaurant in Fairfax and I'm still going to that restaurant and then after I met Murray I was invited to a conference held at the Cato Institute in June 1979 I met I met Murray again was talked to and I met two of his greatest friends Ronald Hamaway Ralph Rayco they were the two of them Ronald Hamaway and Ralph Rayco were two of the three most sarcastic people I've ever met so I I got along with Murray very well and afterwards Murray got me a job at the Cato Institute and then after Murray was pressured out of the Institute I went with him and it was Murray recommended me to Lou Rockwell and one thing I just mentioned when he was talking he mentioned that when he was founding the Institute there was an employee of the Institute who was very opposed to him so one funny story about that the man's name was George Pearson he was nicknamed the peanut and when I met him many years later he really did look like a peanut so when Pat was mentioning the first conference at Stanford I remember in one of those early conferences at Stanford I was sitting next to Murray someone came up afterwards and said oh you two seem to be having a good time what was so funny and what we couldn't tell the one who asked was we were making up a list of which students should be kicked out of the conference so it was really it was really a lot of fun in those days and I also remember going to bookstores with Murray and seeing him go through all the books and he would know all of them so those were great days let me turn to Joe for a moment Joe was also an early disciple of Murray Rothbard and Joe you were involved in Libertarian organizations in New Jersey in the 1970s you had met Murray you became affiliated with the institute very early on since the beginning could you talk about what were your impressions of the Mises Institute in that day what attracted you to Murray and to the institute when there were lots of other Libertarian organizations and groups you could have connected to well it was experience with those other Libertarian organizations and groups so when I got my first job I had a small college in New Jersey and then I was called up by people representing the Koch Foundation they were starting an Austrian program and I was told it was going to be very hardcore and this was going to start up at Rutgers University subsequently moved to George Mason University so I was very excited about this I accepted the job and so the two people one of whom was a professor who I was going to be working with and the other was sort of our mentor I had just read and it had just come out and Mises takes his gloves off in that and criticizes those people who deserve to be criticized and praises others who deserve to be praised so in our first meeting before the semester started for this Austrian program I spoke to my colleague who was an Austrian and the other Austrian was sort of a mentor in the liaison with the Koch Institute and I said isn't this a great book Mises really comes out swinging he tells a lot of good stories and they just looked at each other and smiled and they said it's a disaster the book is a disaster Mises is uncompromising he's intolerant intolerant of error he comes across a cranky old man he says in our program this Austrian program that I was going to be part of of course we'll use Mises' works we're going to emphasize Hayek we're going to downplay Rothbard we're going to be Rothbardians with manners in other words you can't really criticize the mainstream so Hayek was much Hayek was a great economist but he was much more acceptable to the mainstream then I also was associated with the institute for humane studies I would give in fact with Murray and a few others I would go into conferences like these conferences in the early 80s and they used to be called Liberty and Society which is a great name straight forward and then a year or two later a year or two after they started it suddenly became the spontaneous order I mean what students going to be attracted to the spontaneous they know what Liberty is and they know what society is so this was sort of the background that I had I didn't bother me at the time I figured I could still teach Rothbard and Mises as long as we pretend that we're Hayekians and so on so when I was first invited to a conference at the Mises institute in 1983 I think it was the gold conference I went down to Washington because it was located in the house in Washington and I went to the quarter where they were quartered I think it was downstairs or no maybe it was the first floor but anyway I noticed that everybody the staff was Marty and Pat and even Lou were all sitting at the table stuffing envelopes doing work I spoke with them this is the first time I had really I met Lou once before they were all dedicated not just Lou but Pat and Marty to the mission of it was clear disseminating Rothbard's and Mises' ideas to students and others and doing it in a way that was uncompromising so I was hooked right away and then we had the conference the gold conference and at the gold conference were all Austrian economists now I had been involved also with Cato and they had a conference on money maybe the next year or around the same time and most of the economists there were monetarists or even worse there were only a few Austrian commentators and they started off initially again as sort of following the Austrian school but the message was watered down so I was thrilled to be associated with the Mises Institute I must say when I came down for the first time to Orbert in 1991 and I had been associated by then with the journal and with Murray I mean Murray I met in 1972 but I thought they liked me but then they booked me in the heart of Orburn Hotel someone in particular on this panel it was a test of my fortitude but the reason why I think well let me mention one other thing Murray Rothbard was again downplayed in the libertarian movement in the late 70s when the Kochs started to fund a lot of different organizations and conferences and after the break with Murray Rothbard Murray Rothbard really didn't have an intellectual home that is an organization where you have others that think like you talk to them and bounce ideas off them you can disseminate your own ideas he didn't have any way of promoting his vision of a free society and a free economy and the Mises Institute provided those resources I mean the old Austrian school would have never really gotten started unless they had had traditions which they did have at the University of Vienna but academia in the 1980s American academia in 70s and 80s it was closed to Austrians so I think the founding of the institute really kept the Austrian movement alive or at least kept Murray Rothbard's ideas alive and then we were able through the conferences like the Mises University started in 86 to spread that to younger generations and now we're two generations past me so that's really why that's why I I'm so committed to the Mises Institute I'd like to make a remark about the institute's strategy you know Murray Rothbard used to describe his approach to political activism in terms of a belief in what he described as universal rights but locally enforced so he believed in timeless principle and truth but the exact implementation of a specific policy reform was very dependent on local circumstances I think the Mises Institute in a like manner has always emphasized and promoted universal truth we're about understanding and preserving and developing and extending and disseminating the ideas of the great thinkers from Carl Manger you know on to of course Mises and Rothbard and more recent writings so we're not trendy and contemporary in glomming on to the latest fashion in you know in intellectual circles or in higher ed however we've always been extremely flexible and adaptable in you know the means by which the message is developed some of you if you're my talk yesterday I showed a picture of the first Mises.org it was even something else before Mises.org but I remember going to Lou probably in 1993 or 94 I had been exposed to the the internet and a web browser on something called NCSA mosaic on a Unix machine probably around 93 and you know I could sort of not that I'm some kind of super caster but you can sort of see the potential as a means of disseminating ideas and the only organizations that had a presence on the worldwide web as it was then called were you know the Smithsonian institution and maybe a university or a museum here and there and I remember showing this to Lou and saying hey what if we could take some articles from Mises publications and put them on there it's really easy you can convert the text into this code called HTML and I learned how to do it and we could have like an article from you know the Mises newsletter and some links with information and Lou was very receptive and enthusiastic even though nobody really knew what this was and I think from my perspective in the decade since you know in terms of you know really embracing the ability to use the internet to deliver content you know putting books articles lectures online we have the live stream for all these kinds of events the use of social media I think the institute has always been at the forefront of trying to find the latest technologies and in some sense you know the way that ideas are packaged to appeal to contemporary circumstances local circumstances of time and place as I would put it without ever compromising the core message and to me that's a very nice extremely effective strategy of the institute and one that I certainly expect to continue we would like to take some questions from the audience Alcon has got a mic there yeah so just raise your hand and again no speeches but short questions directed at one or more panelists would be appreciated hi thank you thank you guys so much for sharing when you look at Murray Rothbard right you hear how he was really a happy warrior fighting in the battle of spreading austral libertarian tradition and I was wondering well a lot of as fellow students like we can see the march of the state and we can get really pessimistic what can we take from Murray Rothbard's life so that we can apply that and be happy warriors like he was when we're spreading these ideas one thing he was a short term pessimist but a long term optimist thought that we would win in the long term and that if we didn't everything was gone so he believed we would win because we had to win and I think we all feel that way too today I think also the lesson you would take from him is that he never gave up he was he was amazing he just kept going and this is totally an aside but I don't think this panel can leave without mentioning Joey Rothbard Murray's wife who was as he said the indispensable framework just one last thing Murray Rothbard also to use Austrian terminology held liberty very high on his value scale he said that it was the right thing to do it was right to have that high on your value scale so as I said he just never gave up Joey was a brilliant she was an unbelievably brilliant woman and Margaret from Mises always blamed Murray that she didn't get a PhD but I never dared to say to Margaret well actually she did exactly what you did for Mises she dedicated her life to her husband and that was a good thing for Mises and it's a good thing for Murray but Joey was absolutely indispensable framework and also somebody that an intellectual partner for him she was so smart so funny so interesting and we had a couple of our speeches online that I highly recommend you listening to just so funny so interesting what a great lady one thing about Joey also she was a great expert on the Civil War period she gave lectures on it after Murray passed away so she she could have been an outstanding historian she was also a great authority on opera Wagner alrighty so this might be primarily directed towards Dr. Salerno since he certainly seemed the most energized about the subject just to you've been implying this throughout the panel here but just to set the scene about how bad things were could you give us a description of the heart of Auburn Motel let's just say it's been demolished and for good cause yeah it's where the there's a CVS and what's that burger place burger pie down there on South College that's where it used to be mercifully it's been replaced oh yeah other questions can I stand up I thank you all for taking the time to speak to us this is mostly directed towards Ms. Barna and Mr. Rockwell but towards the early days of the institute what was one of the biggest struggles you guys had to overcome and was it unforeseen or did you guys expect it well the there were in the early days it wasn't a struggle I mean it was so I know I sound like I'm making this up but it was so exciting and so much fun Lou Rockwell was writing ten press releases a day and we would run them over to the Auburn University print shop and say we need five thousand of these in two hours and then we would stuff them in envelopes and send them to every tiny radio station, television station newspaper in the country every week I mean this was like that was challenging but there was a very lean financial time that the institute went through in the very early days the first couple of years and I think Lou got very discouraged and a gentleman from Texas a very humble gentleman walked into the institute in Auburn and handed Judy Tomason a check for a million dollars and he said I'm doing this because you save paper clips and he had seen what the staff how frugal we were and how Lou was working so hard and that turned the tide for the institute and Mr. Perry Alfred there's a biography of him on the Mises dot org site great man great man did just kind of a general question did any of you kind of in your early days as you were developing and getting involved with the institute did you have like a moment where you sort of not necessarily with the institute itself but with the Austrianism and its ideas did you have a moment where you can think back to you can realize that oh this was the moment when I changed my life course or it changed how you fundamentally thought about the world and what was that moment? That happened to me before I started the institute so it it was based on that from the very beginning and I thought that it was the only economic school that made any sense whatsoever the rest of it just seemed to me very much a nonsense and I think that's continued to be the case of course it happened to me when I was a junior in college I had taken principles of micro macro intermediate macro, intermediate micro and other courses and someone I had heard about the Austrian school and I mentioned that to somebody who was a member with me young Americans for freedom which was a conservative organization at the time they gave me a little pamphlet called depressions cause and cure by Murray Rothbard and so instead of going to my macro class I sat in my car because I was looking at it before class and I just read it in 45 minutes and by the end I knew I was an Austrian I realized that there was more sense and wisdom in that pamphlet than there was in any anything that had been taught up to that point well yes I think I had this moment when I read Human Action and Manned Economy and State back in the early days and I said this makes sense I really enjoyed the deductive approach I thought this is really the right way to go and I've never changed my view since then okay well we are out of time thanks to the panelists and thanks to all of you for coming