 Aloha. Welcome to the Think Tech Hawaii series Moving Hawaii Forward. I'm your host Tim Appachella and today we were going to look at looking with a promising future of hydrogen power transportation. Hawaii is striving to be 100% free of fossil fuels so it's it's vital part of that is the use of tech the technology of hydrogen. And with me today is our guest Dave Mollinaro who is a project manager that works for H-Cat and he's going to tell us what the latest is with hydrogen transportation and vehicles in Hawaii. Dave, thank you very much for coming to the show. Tim thanks for having me on the show. You're quite welcome. It's an exciting topic to get into. Well that's well yeah I can't wait but before I go down my list of questions how did you get in this business? Well H-Cat's been around since the 19 late 1990s. H-Cat really is a Hawaii Center for Advanced Transportation Technologies. My first foray into this was when I was in the Hawaii Air National Guard and the H-Cat director Tom Quinn back at that time approached at the guard on using some initial hydrogen fuel cell technologies and we had a truck and a what was known as an Mb4 Coleman it was a tow vehicle that was used to tow F-15 so I was very fascinated with hydrogen fuel cell capability and technology and that's where I got my passion with with H-Cat and really excited. What time frame was this? This was back in the mid 90s mid to late 90s and in fact let me take that back it was 2001 we first started that okay so but H-Cat is a department under D-Bed under H the High Tech Development Corporation and we are federally funded by the Air Force Research Lab and it's primarily to do hydrogen fuel cell technology for demonstration purposes for the Air Force we envision a flight line of the future that is really hydrogen fuel cell for many reasons not only for energy assurance and energy resiliency but also to help support the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions use of fossil fuels so on and so forth so really pleased to be part of the state they're actually great stewards in this and really appreciate the support that the Air Force Research Lab has given us in this project as well as D-Bed HTDC. I'm impressed on all the different sources that are are helping out in this in this area. I could talk about how the hydrogen market is developed per se this show is dedicated to transportation and traffic issues so I'm gonna kind of steer in that direction but how do you develop a market that's using hydrogen technology? Well that's a great question the market in Hawaii is still fledgling to say the least we're hoping that what we do with programs like HCAT and through AFROL and through the military to help I guess educate and expand on the understanding of hydrogen hydrogen in particular as an energy source and as a transportation capability. If you look at states like California they're heavily heavily invested in hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen fuel technology hydrogen fuel highways the state has spent I think close to 300 million dollars in the development of that capability where they are state sponsored hydrogen stations and really pushing that technology forward. Hawaii is not at that level yet and you could argue both ways that it could be state funded or I think the best approach is allowing the private industry private sector to develop that capability and that economic infrastructure to move things forward but so it's really at the fledgling from a transportation perspective. Tim I think you're aware of there's some major manufacturers predominantly Toyota has the Marai there's several here on island and there's a hydrogen fuel station that I believe is going up at the local distributor of that vehicle to help again gain entry into the market with hydrogen fuel cells. When I think of hydrogen you know I think of you know compressed natural gas and all the other different technologies that hydrogen is going to compete with as we as we move ahead in the future the first thing that came to my mind is well what's the best application or what market would be best for this and I kept thinking about fleet vehicles yeah but then I thought about well if the state's involved there's certainly a lot of state vehicles that could be part of a demonstration project and and then I thought okay well what else could have you know hydrogen technology obviously the passenger car yeah and things like that but is there other other areas that might be really receptive to hydrogen technology? Tim you hit on I think a really key point is with the industrial fleets like forklifts, short haul trucking like some of the major components delivery packages so on and so forth are already looking into that capability I think I've adapted in fact there are many companies right now that are using hydrogen fuel cell forklifts and and tugs throughout their application in Hawaii or not in Hawaii yet but I also can tell you that there are other companies other major tour companies that are looking at hydrogen fuel cell capability for transportation okay and there's tourist buses as well yeah and again there's an application that you can either apply battery or some other type of hybrid you can certainly apply hydrogen fuel cell technology as well too so but again it's just getting that initiative of hydrogen fuel cells as a or that capability as a viable transportation entity so to circle back to that answer yes I think industry warehousing operations fleet vehicles that is definitely on board and that's certainly taking off throughout the mainland very much so in Europe as well too and they keep the technologies are coming along with that I know certain states in the mainland are doing you know different technologies I know Washington State was heavily involved with having a lot of the transit buses with compressed natural gas what's what's the mix here in Hawaii is it more electric vehicles or is a more compressed natural gas or is hydrogen kind of coming to the forefront I don't kind of climb its way up or it is it's gonna take some time for hydrogen again you're talking in infrastructure that's not there yet right that will be in the next few years and so again you if you build it they will come I think that's the key that we've got to deal with so as far as if there's gonna be a predominant capability whether it's hybrid or electric or fuel cell or some combination there I think in the next you know a couple of decades it's gonna be a combination of all the above you're not gonna see a dominant way shape or form and I don't think it's gonna fit in all applications either so right you know worldwide even Hawaii just look at why the number of vehicles on the road right now there's there's no way it will be able to convert all the vehicles to hydrogen fuel cell or battery for that capability you know in the next five to ten years it's gonna take a long time but the key is starting now and as we talk well I mean if you look at the electrical you know recharge stations I mean that would there a few in far between and then now that you know you're going to love malls and you starting to see them although I am seeing some some editorials in the newspaper saying that a lot of these stations aren't being maintained and they're not operational so that's that's not always good so what would it take what's it take to bring a hydrogen station hydrogen refueling station online as a station Wow there's a lot of permitting and licensing and just in general education about hydrogen fuel cells hydrogen safety hydrogen technology and again we're working through that Hcat has taken a big role as it has the state in helping facilitate the discussion of hydrogen fuel cell implementation there's a as you bring new technologies on and in fact we're competing with petroleum based petroleum based industry that's been around for what 125 150 years changing that mindset on this is a viable alternative to fossil fuels is the battle so well you said mindset and I think when it comes to hydrogen there is that mindset about combustion and nature and I'm not gonna say the word I promise I won't say Hindemurg but I mean there is you know one comes to thinking about safety issues but I understand that hydrogen is probably one of the safest safest technologies out there because it's so light and it's if there ever was a leak it escapes at a very very fast rate so can we talk a little bit about safety there is a lot of again I'm gonna qualify this I'm not an engineer I'm not a safety expert but I do know enough that hydrogen is safe in the spec in the respect that it is not inherently flammable unless you've got the right carbon and oxygen component there as you mentioned to in the design of some of the tanks and the facilities it is extremely safe it does dissipate quickly as opposed to not heard I don't correct me wrong yeah I heard that if hydrogen it does leak it it's the velocity is 45 miles per hour which is to say in one second you've gone up six six stories or something that's that's about it doesn't it does not settle on the ground like a fuel leak or so it's not a heavy it's not extremely light it's very very safe and the fact that it does dissipate to yeah some of the technology that goes into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for example that they're steel stainless steel wrapped tanks that are wrapped in carbon fiber carbon fiber extremely strong there are security valves blast valves if you will if you will that would dissipate the gas in the event of a fire or major impact in fact that we've told people you know go online take a look there's great videos out there fuel cell safety work you know car that's been hit or damaged in an accident with a hydrogen tank the flames propagate pretty much in a vertical manner there's no big spread compare that to a 20 or 25 gallon fuel tank of gasoline or diesel it's a huge conflagration compared to what the risks are too so how did how do you folks begin to even address you know the public's misperception of hydrogen technology I mean that has to be an uphill climb all the way there's some that's a great question and you know by educating the public and talking to them talking to legislators and we've got some really strong advocates not only at the national but the state legislators as well and through proponents like the state energy office done a fantastic job in helping communicate the safety issues or the lack of problems with hydrogen so it the potential is there it's just educating people again you're bringing new technology on board that people don't understand and worse yet in this situation you've got a misperception because people always think of Enberg or the hydrogen bomb and but it's a it's an education piece that's just going to take time well the fact that you have now Toyota you have Hyundai you have I'm not sure if you have Mercedes Benz in this I think Mercedes and BMW are all starting to go into that I mean it would seem that if they're actually adopting this technology and actually starting to manufacture it and actually selling it on retail value it seems to me that they're probably really good at creating perceptions in and correcting misperceptions I don't know to what degree I've ever seen that on TV or or any ads or anything like that but is there any do they get involved with any kind of that marketing I couldn't specifically address the marketing of the OEMs but they have a best in interest in helping the public understand yeah the safety of hydrogen and and the benefits of it as well too I think most people know that oh my gosh the only off gas is oxygen and water and that's all it is there and I think that's a that's a huge selling point I think if they understand the by generating hydrogen using renewable energy or even through other renewable energy means it's a much much cleaner gas as far as carbon footprint and gas the exhaust I mean for me to think it was a natural when it came to a lot transit buses that actually have to go through tunnels and you know they have to idle inside a tunnel and there's you know the carbon monoxide issues and things like that so or in the tourist bus if they're just you know into a warehouse and they just keep their their vehicle running it just seems there is a huge advantage to not having to shut things down keeping their conditioner on in hot climates and it just seems like a natural for some of these bigger tourist vehicles or or you know bus vehicles so just kind of still kind of scratch my head why more transit systems haven't gone down that road again I think it's just people understanding the technologies and where they are and you hit on a key point some of the tourist transportation businesses here looking at the fact that I mean I don't have to shut my bus off I can keep their conditioning running whereas right now I think handling laws and rules that they have to shut everything down so it's a definite plus and it's really a much better environmental sales pitch if you will for them for the companies as well too it's like it's a good marketing tool for them to say or greenhouse gas free yeah well Dave I'm gonna take a break right now so we'll be back in a minute this is Tim Apachele moving Hawaii forward and we'll be back after a few seconds. Hey Stanley Energy man here make sure you tune in on my lunch hour every Friday from noon until 12 30 at least maybe I'll go a little long if you got good stuff to to share with you but we'll talk about energy all kinds of energy my favorite is hydrogen and my favorite other favorites transportation and hydrogen but we'll talk about all kinds of energy be with us every Friday at noon Stanley Energy man Aloha. Hello and Aloha my name is Raya Salter and I am the host of Power of Hawaii where Hawaii comes together to figure out how we're going to work towards a clean and renewable energy future we have exciting conversations with all kinds of stakeholders everyone who needs to come together to talk about renewable energy be they engineers advocates lawyers utility executives musicians or artists to see how we can come together to make a renewable future Tuesdays at 1 p.m. Aloha welcome back this is moving Hawaii forward and I'm here with Dave Mullen Errol who's with HKAT and we're talking about height hydrogen technology and transportation thanks Dave appreciate it thanks for hanging out with us absolutely enjoy this appreciate it hey one question I wanted to ask before the break and I didn't get a chance to do that is you know recently there's before the Obama administration actually exits there is some very strong air quality regulation that has been trying to been pushed through and they're trying to keep it in place before the incoming administration does something about it and one of that that outreach to industry is the capture of methane gas and of course as you can imagine in the natural gas industry when you're when you're drilling for natural gas you'll a byproduct is methane gas and I understand that methane gas is really compatible with hydrogen technologies and maybe I just ask you to just jump in this conversation for a quick second to say how easy is it to try to capture methane gas and actually convert it to hydrogen it's gonna be a quick second again not being an engineer but yeah methane or many of the gases can be converted into using steam reformation into hydrogen and that is a very practical solution in the production of hydrogen for distribution worldwide yeah so allegedly what I hear is that you know a lot of the you know natural gas companies that are drilling they're not fighting the the regulatory action per se they're on allegedly they're on board it just seems there's a natural partnership there that's waiting to happen between the hydrogen development technology and you know trying to prevent the methane gas which I guess does have one of the worst carbon it does carbon footprints that when methane escapes in the atmosphere it's it was not one number one it's number two definitely detrimental you know with with the oil producers and some of the other distributors I think this is an opportunity for the future and I think the really smart companies are seeing that we've had some really great partnerships with some of the producers here in Hawaii they get it they see it and they want to move forward with the advancement of anything they can do to reduce the footprint of what kind of industries are you looking at some of the oil and gas producing industries as well they've been really supportive they've been actively involved with what we're doing and are seeking solutions to and I think I don't know where you stand or what regardless of what your stance is on on global warming you know gas is it produced by man is it accelerated by man or is it just a natural occurrence bottom line is we've got a problem we need to address it and identify it now and it would be foolish for us to not move forward to the new technologies and capabilities that we've got right here and Hawaii is really well positioned for not only the legislative advocate advocacy but we've got the military here we've got some great corporations large and small that really are grabbing onto the renewable energy mandate and and see a way forward so it's really exciting I think Hawaii again not to be redundant is really setting pretty you know what I heard is you know music to my ears was you have an end an industry that has been somewhat resistant to a lot of technologies for a very good reason you know they have you know they're their their properties to protect in their profits to you know safeguard sure but what I heard you saying is that they're actually trying to move forward with this technology and they see it as beneficial so I find that really very encouraging here it is rather than it's very obvious to fight this technology is that the yeah they're coming to the table again I think Hawaii that many industries here that we've dealt with or are collaborating with on all different levels personal and professional really understand the need to move forward out move move out with the technology and the capabilities to so you mentioned the legislative body is very supportive tell me a little bit about Hawaii Department of Transportation or some of the state agencies are you involved with many in any interaction with those folks we are we actively engage with the state energy office they've done a remarkable job in helping identify a way forward with renewable energies and some of the mandates that are there education not only general public but the legislature providing studies and just a lot of advocacy with the Department of Transportation we're working with them to develop a hydrogen infrastructure at the airport at or near the airport there is a standard proposal that's going to be going out to develop a hydrogen station and again at the behest of DOT we want to develop some hydrogen fuel cell capability buses in particular for the airport would that be like the wiki wiki or not the wiki wiki right now I think that the premises to work with the rental shuttles that are right there right now okay so but that's a great initiative by the DOT they're very forward thinking on on that capability as well and again that's going to get hydrogen fuel cell technology in that that where with all that awareness out into the general public you get to the airport and you get on a bus it's hydrogen powered you may get on the wiki key you've got a hydrogen bus or some other type of transportation form that's hydrogen capable there that's really does a lot to sell the RFP is just now going out it will be going on yes so come time frame do you think there might be something that's exciting to report on I I wish I could tell you it's again that's all dependent on the legislature and they have been very very supportive very supportive so I'm gonna ask the tough question where you getting pushed back from who's not on board there really isn't anybody that's on board right now again I think the general understanding of you know what we have to do to move forward if you look at Hawaii writ large in the mandate to do renewable energies island-wide that's a huge challenge you're taking again 150 plus years of centralized electrical distribution using traditional petrochemicals and now you're saying we're gonna do it renewables that's a pretty gutsy goal that's one of those moonshots and it's just it's a difficult perspective to get your hands around and again as you educate folks and we move forward with certain projects and initiatives people will understand it so there's nobody that's saying not my backyard yeah help me you're shaping values and attitudes but thank goodness you're not trying to reshape beliefs and I think sometimes when it comes to the fossil fuel reliance yeah some of that actually gets into the heavy belief system rather than a simple value or an attitude that you're trying to change so that's the good news is you're trying to you know work on on the easy part of persuasion rather than the real tough part yeah and let me illustrate one example one of the things that we're doing in age cat and I'm the project manager for renewable energy microgrid it's an Air Force research lab directed project but we're going to take a big portion of Hickam Air Force base or joint based Pearl Harbor Hickam off the grid and use renewable energies as the primary source of energy energy distribution and we're gonna have a heavy focus on photovoltaic we certainly want to use hydrogen in new and unique ways to demonstrate that capacity of that capability and you work in tandem photo tech and hydrogen it can because you can use the curtailed energy from PV to produce hydrogen to store hydrogen to be used to provide time or absolutely absolutely so with the grid though and it's by the way it's called the Pacific Energy Assurance and Realism Resiliency Lab Pearl for short interesting but we want we think that that is going to be a great demonstration project not only for what the Air Force or what the Air Force is intended for which is energy assurance and energy resiliency we think it's really going to be a great template for the state to look at those technologies and that concept and apply it to some of the challenges that we've got island-wide and perhaps even throughout the world there's some really great other technologies we've got a waste to energy 10 ton per day waste for energy project that is will be connected to the grid very excited about that produces a great amount of electricity and also gets rid of potential waste products not going into our streams and not going into streams the contaminated waste as well too so but we're also looking at unique battery technology battery storage capabilities other distribution controlling mechanisms as well too let me back up yeah battery with hydrogen yes as part of Pearl is going to be comprised of six grids so they're all going to be interconnected and again in theory we can island that portion of the Hawaii International Guard campus completely off the grid for demonstration for really again energy assurance and reliability from mission critical infrastructure so it's really unique product project yeah and with applicability for the state of Hawaii what time horizon do you envision this this demonstration project all goes well we should have our first shovels in the ground by late spring early summer of this year for the first of the two grads so we're really excited about it got great support again kudos to the state kudos to the legislature locally and nationally we've got great partnership for the Navy Facilities Command has done great work in helping move this project along I can't say enough about the primary engineers we're doing a pitch here for Burns and McDonald and are they any firm that does a primary contractor for this and they've just some remarkable engineers and talents to help move this thing forward so but all goes well we'll have it in first shovels in the ground by in the next few months great anytime you do a demonstration project there's always a community impact yeah and that's my next question is how's the community perceiving this this this demonstration project are there any concerns are they all supportive of it or we think again generally the we've had great support people are really interested in the capability and with the mandate in 2045 people are really embracing it I've yet to run into anybody that's a bad idea not gonna work not my backyard what more can you ask for no it's it's fantastic win-win and well you're in a great business yes we all are and it's important very important yeah let me ask you this where do you see new horizons or new frontiers of this technology other than just vehicles and great well great the big one yeah are there any out of the box frontiers that this could be applicable to absolutely if you look at hydrogen fuel cells as a motor or an energy source you can apply that anywhere in fact early on early early on in the inception of age cat I know there were some forays in design and development of hydrogen fuel cells for boats and fairies hydrogen fuel cells could certainly be applied in aviation at some point time in fact I know many manufacturers are looking at that R&D technology right now so where you have a internal combustion engine right now or a huge battery pack you can stick in a fuel cell and apply the technology just about anywhere so and as time moves on energy and design become more efficient more compact it's just only going to get better I don't want to say there's a Moore's law tied in with right fuel cell development but who knows yeah I mean some of the stuff we've seen in the last few years has been really remarkable and we are out searching through those technologies and those industries that can commit to making that happen well one of the things I love them I like about this show is I bring on guests that can open our horizons in our mind and open us to the possibility of new frontiers and I really appreciate your time coming here today and thank you for enlightening me about this new technology really didn't think of much about it here and there I did but now that I know it's a lot more accessible and it's a lot easier than in previously thought I really appreciate that I'll appreciate it then thanks to the opportunity to come on and talk and that's why it's great appearing on ThinkTech so we'd love to have you back give us an update on how the demonstration logic is going so thank you very much yeah well that's all for this week and this is Tumap Achela your host and this is moving Hawaii forward and we'll see you next week