 Welcome to another Vicki session tonight. Tonight we're talking about a very controversial yet a very current topic about Gaza, a city located in the very troublesome and recently troublesome area of Israel and Palestine. We have with us to lead the discussion to experts in this Middle Eastern turmoil. One is Mayor, the former Mayor of Burlington, Peter Clavel, who served, I don't know how many terms Peter, a lot of them, and who traveled to the Middle East in 1991 with Musa Asak when we established a sister city. One of the first sister cities in the United States have a sister city in Palestine, and that sister city has existed to this day. That's the city of Bethlehem. Also, we have a sister city in Israel. And Mayor Clavel facilitated that as well, being an incredibly educated and decent mayor. And the second person that we have speaking is Musa Asak, another very well educated person. I don't need to go into all his credentials. He is the current president of the sister city in Burlington, the sister city being Burlington, Bethlehem, Arad. Musa is born in Palestine here. And is with us tonight to talk about the current situation with Mayor Clavel, who has served and worked. Mayor Clavel served and worked in Gaza. So he knows a great deal about that city. Okay, so I'm going to turn it over to Musa Asak right now and welcome everybody. And thank you all for being here. Musa. Musa, you're voted here. I think Musa needs to be unmuted. Okay, let me figure it out. Unmuted now. Okay. Okay, I just want to start by thanking Sandy and Beth and the Vicky team for inviting Mayor Clavel and myself to comment on the tough and sad situation in Gaza in Israel and Palestine. I want to state from the outset that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has absolutely nothing to do with religion. You know, I always like to stress that it has everything to do with the domination and supremacy of one group over another, including land and resources. The fact is that Israel now dominates the Palestinians and controls all of historic Palestine. My father was born in a village on the West Bank and had only a sixth grade education before he had to work to support his family, but he was the wisest person in my life. He once heard a group of us in Vermont struggling to understand how people who had been abused by persecution programs and wars could become occupiers and abuse others in his simple way. So we were struggling with that. You know, how could that happen? In his simple way, my dad said that this issue has nothing to do with any of that. He said that Jews who came to Palestine beginning in the 19th century came as Europeans and they mistreated the indigenous people as Europeans did all indigenous people everywhere, whether in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the US, Canada or elsewhere. Indigenous people were portrayed as backward and savages, sounds familiar, not deserving sovereignty or independence. Their lands and resources were fair game. Does this sound familiar to us? It does to me. All these settler colonial systems justified their brutality with high-minded phrases that had religious overtones, manifest destiny, civilizing mission, God and my right. God and my right was the motto for the British Empire as it was occupying the whole world. Our topic tonight is Gaza and to understand what has happened there, we need to think about it in context. First, we are, who are the Gazans? When Israel was established largely with the help of Western powers in 1947, 1948 in historic Palestine, about three quarters of the Palestinian population were driven out, 750,000 of them and over 500 of their villages were totally demolished to prevent their return. Most of the people living in Gaza today, 2.1 million are Palestinians and their descendants who were driven out of Southern Palestine. People who live in Central Palestine were driven into Jordan and Palestinians from the North were driven into Lebanon and Syria. Some in the North managed to stay in their villages and we can discuss that if we have time how did that happen or and very very few returned and they are the basis for the Israeli Palestinian citizens today who number about 2 million people, about 21 percent of the Israeli population. And Gaza, you know, when you look at the map, so thank you Ian, when you look at the map you will see that Gaza is very small geographic area only about, I want to stress, 25 miles long by less than eight miles wide. It is from here to before Montpelier, it doesn't make it to Montpelier by eight miles wide with a sea coast into that small area are crammed 2.1 million people making it one of the most densely populated places on earth. When Israel withdrew its settlers in 2005 from the 21 settlements that managed to stuff in there it had established in Gaza. It set about a building a barrier around the territory and since 2007 there has been a blockade on Gaza by land, air and sea maintained by Israel with the help of Egypt. So Gaza does not control its borders at all. When you see Gaza being bombed the first thing we should understand is that there is nowhere Gazans can go to escape from danger. We saw this particularly during the May 21 Israeli offensive a couple months ago in which the bombardments were random and a new kind of bomb was tested. I really believe Gaza is being used as a test site bombing runs that caused the whole sale destruction for entire buildings. 2000 pound GBU-31 bunker busters US supplied F-16s and F-35s were used in all Israel mounted 1500 air strikes against Gaza in 11 days injuring 1900 Palestinians killing at least 254 including 66 children. Israel lost 13 people including two children to Hamas fire rockets. The economic damage to Israel is staggering some to Gaza I mean is staggering some 290 to 380 million with housing health education and social services bearing the brunt of the destruction. Some 1800 residential units were destroyed with another 14,000 1300 partially destroyed forcing tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza to take refuge in UN schools. About 30 healthcare facilities were damaged including the only COVID testing facility. The Israeli military term for this is mowing the lawn. So it hit at Hamas government targets periodically to weaken their military capacity. So the question is what happened in May 2021 two months ago to set off this latest round of violence? We have to go to Jerusalem for the answer to this. Is Jerusalem was annexed by Israel in 1980 after it was occupied in 1967. The United Nations is applying international law continues to regard is Jerusalem as occupied territories according to the Geneva conventions occupiers are not allowed to transfer populations in or out of the occupied territories. Israel has flouted this since its establishment. Today in Jerusalem Israel is building a biblical theme park. This is all to explain it's really simple to explain it's building a biblical part theme park on the southern part of the old city and it wants to appropriately expropriate and then destroy 1500 homes of Palestinians living in the area of Silwan. So remember these names you will hear them Silwan is one town where mad massive destruction is happening. In addition Israel is working to condemn and destroy the homes of a number of Palestinians who live in the neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah in an ongoing effort which is on the east of the old city. It's all an effort to due the eyes Jerusalem to this is ethnic cleansing and it is happening in real time. What is happening in Jerusalem today is the spark that lit the conflagration in May. Palestinians in Jerusalem the West Bank and even Palestinian citizens of Israel protested these actions. Israel brutally crushed these demonstrations and Hamas the Palestinian political party that governs Gaza took advantage of the opportunity and fired rockets into Israel. The Israeli army directed by a government that was on the eve of elections decided to move the lawn. Again Israel now controls all of historic Palestine in any meaningful sense. We should keep in mind there are as many Palestinians there under Israel's control that are Jewish Israelis about six and a half million of each six and a half million Jewish Israelis and six and a half million Palestinians. Some 21% of the 8.7 million Israelis are Palestinian citizens primarily in Galilee in the north. Roughly 4.5 million Palestinians live under Israeli occupation and have lived in these circumstances without political rights of any kind since 1967. That is I tell people 54 years how many more years before people are allowed to be free you know it's just is going on and on too long. As you can imagine it is extraordinarily difficult to live under military occupation as my relatives do in the west bank where you cannot feel secure on your own land or under blockade siege and bombardment as in Gaza or under the constant threat of expropriation as in East Jerusalem. It is also very difficult to live as a second-class citizen under an apartheid system where more than 70 codified laws privilege and this is for the lawyers and all people who really are interested they should check these laws. These are codified laws specifically to privilege one specific group that is the Jewish nationals over everyone else. This is the Palestinian experience today Israel has divided them into various groups in the west bank and in Gaza under military occupation in East Jerusalem under annexation in Israel as Palestinian citizens not nationals and that nationals remind me somebody asked the question about what's the difference between national and citizenship under an apartheid system. Although divided into various groups all Palestinians share the uncertainty of a future in which they are not allowed to participate fully in a free and sovereign system none of them are living under such a thing. As Americans who want to the best for both Israelis and Palestinians and whose government has a long-standing economic relationship with Israel 3.8 billion a year in arms sales alone and stands diplomatically with Israel virtually all of the time we have a special role to play in what happens next the expropriation and demolition of homes in Jerusalem and elsewhere that is happening now is ethnic cleansing and it is happening before our eyes it is what it is really you don't question it you look at it you know what it is we should make our voices heard if we do not support this to our congressional representatives the State Department and the White House most of all I urge you to educate yourself become acquainted with organizations such as Bates Selam the Israeli Human Rights Organization which just published a report entitled a regime quote a regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea this is apartheid and the quote that is the title of the report I urge you to read it another excellent source of information is plus the sign plus 972 an independent non-profit online magazine owned and operated by a group of Israeli and Palestinian journalists excellent source of information about what's happening daily according to Bates Selam and I'm very close to finishing here according to Bates Selam Israel uses four major methods to advance Jewish supremacy restricting migration to keep the number of Jews going you know if you if you have a an entity for one group that favors one group you will forever be engaged in engineering a population engineering taking over Palestinian land to build Jewish only communities draconian restrictions on movement the one of the laws there is the absentee laws we can check these in a couple minutes you know in the question and answer one law I really want to mention before I close Israel also passed laws from the beginning allowing communities with admission admission committees there are hundreds of them in every town in every Mushaf in every kibbutz hundreds of them all over Israel to reject Palestinian applicants on the basis of cultural incompatibility or socially socially social unsuitability if we use these language in our country here we would be not very happy supposedly any Israeli citizen can live in any city in in practice Israel I don't know how many people know this is 92 percent segregated 20 percent of the population is Palestinian it's 92 percent segregated eight percent about live in mixed cities like Haifa and Lud and Jaffa however those people in the mixed cities are living in segregated distinct what do you call it neighborhoods and when you have all the Mushafs the kibbutz 90 percent of Israeli towns are exclusively Jewish guess where the resources when when the state is allocating resources guess where the resources are going so the Israeli Palestinian citizens are impoverished they are stuck in towns in Nazareth basically with no room to expand and I will stop there and we'll discuss it further later in question and answer thank you for your patience thank you moussa I would love to hear from Peter Kovell who is the mayor who established the sister cities and traveled to the Middle East Israel and Palestine with me and with a colleague Roz Payne and Joe Bornstein if you all remember that right Peter anyway the mayor who did all that mayor Kovell so if if I could get a give a bit more context for my understanding of Gaza one is a disclaimer I don't claim to be an expert but on the other hand I'm probably one of fewer monitors who have spent more than a month living and working in Gaza in my first exposure to Gaza was in 1994 some of you may recall that after serving two terms as mayor I lost an election I took a break from politics and Gaza was my first engagement in international development I came back and was reelected a number of times after this in 1995 went on to serve an additional five terms but as it was during this break that I get my first exposure to international development it wet my appetite and after leaving the mayor's office in 2006 I went on to work for 15 years in international development for a Burlington based company Tetra Tech ARD primarily implementing USAID projects so in that role I returned to the Middle East and I spent a fair bit of time not in Gaza but in Jordan where I was overseeing and responsible for the management of two different projects in Jordan including including a local governance project so that gave me great exposure to the complexity of the issues and the challenges facing this this region and also as Sandy mentioned the Burlington Bethlehem ARD relationship began when I was mayor and was finally culminated when I returned to the mayor's office in 1995 and in that capacity I visited both Israel and the West Bank and our sister city of Bethlehem on at least four occasions most recently I was there about about six years ago so when I was in Gaza in 1994 a long time ago now but this was a time of great hope for Gaza this was the time when the Oslo Accords had been signed this was the time when Yasser Arafat was returning to Palestine and Gaza was the provincial capital of the Palestinian authorities and there was great hope that finally the people of Palestine in Gaza particularly would be able to live in a more steep peaceful stable and economically robust environment and that hope was never realized but when I was there I had the responsibility of assessing the capacity of local government and it was a pretty amazing it was in 1994 when I was there that they began the phase out of the of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and it took about 10 years but initially they left in very quick terms and they said okay it's yours and so they left nothing behind in terms of equipment and machinery or records for example the municipalities that I was working with at the time had had they had no idea as to how to tax properties and they had no records in terms of property taxation the Israelis took everything with them and so it was a very huge challenge for the people of of Gaza to begin the process of managing their their own affairs I remember once speaking to an elderly mayor I visited virtually all the municipalities of Gaza of any size and I remember once meeting with an elderly mayor he was not so elderly for me now but at the time he seemed elderly he was about 82 years old and his useful his youthful assistance was about my age now 72 and he says yes Peter he says I am the mayor I have been for six years I have a I have a full city council and I said mayor you're the first mayor that I have met that has a full city council in place he says yes Peter but the city council is 11 individuals and six of them are dead and have been for a very long time well that could sum up the capacity of local governments in Gaza and there was a saying in Gaza that continues to this day which I think is pretty profound and it said yesterday is better than today today is better than tomorrow because there is no hope and that says a lot about the psychology the spirit of the people of Gaza I mean I was just astonished as to what a hellhole this place was I mean you would walk through the streets of villages and cities and Rasuj was on was on the surface it was incredible and people have said it's an open air prison and to this day people say that Gaza is occupied and there's some controversy around this because the Israeli military forces are not actually in Gaza but everything that they that folk that the citizens of Gaza need to sustain their existence comes from Israel you know fuel electricity water is all controlled by Israel so it is amazing that there's a situation where ostensibly they are free of the occupation by Israeli troops but they have no control over their destiny you know and just for a moment if you could draw up this map of Gaza I'd like to draw a few analogies between Burlington and Chittendon County and in Gaza you know do we have that map of Gaza it's not a good one no yes that's good so as as as Musa mentioned this is a small piece of territory 25 miles long on average six miles wide the size of Gaza is 141 square miles the size of Chittendon County is 619 square miles so put that in perspective Gaza this place of 2.1 million people is one fourth the size of Chittendon County yet the population is 2.5 versus versus 165 thousand in Chittendon County one of the most densely populated places on this planet in most of the people in in Gaza not most this is not true but there are eight refugee camps and so a good share of the population of Gaza I think it's about 600,000 living refugee camps then you look at the economics it's even more profound the per capita income in Gaza is 3,559 versus Chittendon County 61,858 so on average the income of a resident of Chittendon County is 17 times more than than a resident of Gaza so it's a very very challenging place to live the unemployment rate in Gaza is about 48 percent compared to you know and it's a little iffy now because of the pandemic but as of February of this year Chittendon County was 2.7 percent so 48 percent versus 2.7 percent so and and particularly among young people in in Gaza is it has a very young population of the 2.1 million people that live there half of them are below 18 and among youth the population the unemployment is particularly high it's about it's about 70 percent so very very challenging situation they have little access to clean water about 800,000 of the population of Gaza have no reliable access to clean water the electricity in this place that gets hot so you know you can't there's no air conditioning in most places certainly but the electricity is on for only a few hours a day so you know I could go on but I'll stop there I think we had it could be more productive to have a conversation but an interesting issue in my mind is the relationship of Hamas to to Gaza and you know it's very complicated of course they've been declared to be a terrorist organization and but on the other hand they deliver many of the social services that the people of Gaza depend upon and I think that's the reason that the Hamas continues to have great support among the people of Gaza in a place where local governments are not delivering services and in a place where the economic challenges are so intense one of the few providers of services is the Hamas organization so why don't we stop there and open it up for conversation okay I'm Beth is there something in the chat that I should check Beth you're muted no okay all right any other any questions I would like maybe one of you maybe must have just what is Hamas we all understand that that has been declared a terrorist organization so I have a couple of questions Hamas is the government of Gaza is that correct yeah so here's here is the deal when you know to put it in the context of the history of Gaza when the Palestinian liberation organized the PLO Yasser Arafat and companies were secular people were asking for secular things a secular state so for Israel wanted to weaken the secular branch of the Palestinians they really nurtured Hamas Hamas has religious overtones they nurtured them they allowed money from Qatar to flow in as a counterweight and to fragment the leadership of the Palestinians that's where it comes from but most I do have a follow-up question if that's okay were the people of Hamas elected by the people of Gaza at some point you know just because what Mayor Clavel mentioned they because Hamas was supplying food and services and all of that they did run and the PLO leadership was corrupt compared to them and they did win an election and that's where the U.S. and Israel boycotted and is what you call it blockaded Gaza Hamas is the largest Palestinian militant Islamist group and much of the controversy around Hamas is is embedded in their charter which expresses a commitment to the destruction of Israel so the U.S. the European Union and many others look at them as a terrorist group but on the other hand they are the delivery of the most important social welfare programs to the people of Gaza okay other questions I do I do have a question about the blockade would it with both of you describe what that blockade is and who enforces it against Gaza Mayor Clavel go ahead um you know the uh the blockade what what year was the was was the blockade uh started 2007 2007 yep so you know Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and shortly thereafter the blockade was imposed and it was imposed interestingly enough not only by Israel but by Egypt as well yeah because the uh the situation in Gaza was so desperate that the flow of folks outside of Gaza into both Egypt and Israel was viewed as a threat to the national security of those countries so they threw up this blockade blockade and as a result of the blockade there is very little flow of uh people in goods into uh into into into Gaza uh so right now you know after the 11 days of bombardment in May of this year they're trying to reconstruct Gaza but they don't have the materials necessary for the reconstruction uh the cement the lumber that it's it's it's so critical the fuel they don't have the fuel going in so there was a time when people could could flow freely in and out of Gaza back when I was there uh you know many of the Palestinians uh worked in uh agricultural operations in in Israel but that was totally shut shut down so it's it's it's it's been a huge uh impediment to the rehabilitation and redevelopment of Gaza and if you look at the recommendations in terms of what needs to be done to support the people of Gaza one of the key recommendation is to remove the restrictions on the movement of people in goods uh to and from Gaza and and that is not in the offing is it is any kind of no discussion about lifting the Musa no if I if I may add I just want to stress uh you know when Israel pulled out its soldiers as Jeff Halper who's an Israeli citizen and activist says Israel said oh I don't need to be in there tackling it you know one by one I'm going to control the jail the so the police or the jailers control five percent of the jail the jailed the prisoners control 90 percent of the prison but the prison is still controlled by you know the perimeter of Gaza is totally the air the sea the borders is controlled are controlled by Israel the one side the one exit that is in Egypt is controlled by Egypt Egypt has two issues one is they are really afraid because Israel will keep bombing him until they go somewhere and Israel is afraid that they will end up with all of Gazans you know flooding into Egypt escaping and the situation is really awful you know the water resources are depleted and the other one the Egyptian government is a anti what do you call it Muslim Brotherhood Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood organization and they do not like them so it's so Gaza has a double Egypt is is not the controller but also remember our the US government pays Egypt big bucks 1.08 billion you know it's it doesn't compare to the 3.8 billion going to Israel but we bought Egypt they better you know do certain things like for example I'm sure it's behind the scenes to help Israel and so Gaza is in in a terrible place as Mayor Clavel said I wouldn't want to live there want to live there I actually as a free citizen I would not want to live in Israel you know as a second or third class citizen and I wouldn't want to live under occupation in the West Bank so it's really a horrendous situation and that is the big picture you know the who controls what you know Hamas to me is a side issue in the sense because they exist only because Israel helped them come into existence and I really believe they would go away if they if things improve you know if the economy improves if as Mayor Clavel said if the borders are open for free movement you know in Gaza they cannot go to university they cannot get out of Gaza students they want to go to Egypt or they want to go to Jordan or the West Bank to universities they can't in other words they can't travel they can't travel they can't travel anyway it's called an open air prison yes I mean that's typically how Gaza is done you can't get in you can't get out not only can't you get in and out but electricity does not flow water does not flow fuel does not flow more than 60 percent of the people in Gaza are living a life of food insecurity they don't have enough food for their family it's a very youthful population it's one of the most youthful populations of of anywhere but you know there's just no hope and then you know there's there's no great wonderment that there's such despair and they revert to violence and responses to the Israelis it's it's a very very challenging difficult situation Ian Ian yeah um so Peter mentioned that roughly two-thirds of the population of Gaza are refugees and are recognized by the United Nations as refugees and one of the main demands of Palestinian people I think is the right of return of refugees I mean those refugees in Gaza they were people who left what is now Israel in 1948 so according to international law those refugees have the right of return but I know that Israel is trying hard I think maybe with the help of others to declare that the descendants of refugees of those 1948 refugees should not be classified as refugees so this is maybe Israel's attempt to get a sort of a time expiration on the the issue of refugees so could the panelists comment on that issue of the potential resolution of this problem of of Palestinian refugees? Peter you want to? No you go ahead I mean the the challenges that are faced by the people of Gaza and to a lesser extent by those of the West Bank are so immense that the whole notion of the right to return is so far out there that it's it's uh it's a faraway dream at best I mean there's no steps that are being taken to actualize that right to return and you know the first time that I went to the West Bank and visited refugee camp I see all these keys hanging out there I says you know what does that mean well that's that that's the key to my home and I'm going to return one day and people were fervent about about it but this was 50 years ago that they were forced to have more than 50 years ago now that they were forced out of their home and there's no indication that they're ever going to be able to return of all the issues that are the challenges facing the region the right to return is probably the most difficult and the one that's least likely to to to be achieved that in the status of Jerusalem as a as the capital and the idea that this would become a Palestinian capital at least East Jerusalem is very very challenging you know I'll just add very quickly I'll add to from day one Israel did not want any Palestinians to stay in Palestine they wanted all of them out and they immediately enacted the law of return which applies only to Jews so now I am a descendant of Palestinians my Jewish neighbor in the United States we live equally under the law in 12 hours we can get on an airplane in 12 hours we land in Israel we are equal and buddy buddy here we get there the person who's Jewish will be treated like a king and queen and I will be treated like even with an American citizen not very badly and will never be allowed you know I was born there my ancestors go back to time in memorial they will not I will not be able to stay more than three months and that will be monitored very closely as an American citizen I cannot stay so these laws are crazy you know they are and eventually many Jews are opening up their eyes young Jews are finding out about all of these laws they did not know about I really believe on the long run it's not sustainable and the only solution is equality you know I'm not talking about one state two state or whatever dignity for both people the only way and then it will be you know people flow in and out and Israeli Jewish Palestinian you know there are millions of Palestinians out who will not be able to go back ever the way it's constructed now but that's not sustainable and that's what I believe it's in Musa you may know the details of this but there was hope that the new government of Israeli now that Netanyahu's out of there would would would be more favorable to granting certain rights to Palestinians but there there was an a vote just this past week before the Israeli parliament which would have extended a law allowing Israeli Arabs who were married to stay in Israel or to enter Israel and the parliament refused to right extend that law so they are Israel is so you know this is population engineering you know if you are if you have one group favor you are going to be forever engaged in population engineering which is evil so what happens is if an Israeli Jewish or Palestinian citizen of Israel marries a Palestinian from the West Bank they cannot bring their spouse into Israel to live they would have to leave the country period end of story and what the marriage level is talking about they were trying to pass a lot to ease that restriction so it is when you study the laws you will see it's all calculated and aimed at eliminating the indigenous people pushing them out not allowing them back in and bringing as many of the desirable people in that is if people really understood that would not be very happy with it and the Jews or otherwise if if we take these laws and just say oh this country is superior the nationality is for the whites and citizenship is for everybody else people would be would not accept that and that's exactly what's happening in Israel by the way I just want to mention this citizenship in Israel supreme court of Israel many times was tacked they said nationality is superior to citizenship so citizenship grants you being there nationality grants you resources and you are number one and study that please the lawyers amongst us study those laws they are discriminatory big time I have a question about that most of but maybe other people there are other people you know I noticed I don't know I don't see them so Mark Estrin yeah can you hear me yes you can yes just a comment about Peter's characterization of hopelessness there's a wonderful line from Mahmoud Darwish the great Palestinian poet and he and he talks about the incurable malady of hope as characterizing really Palestinian that's yeah I hear that in what Musa says in the way he thought or the way Musa talks about it but I would also just like to ask about I was under the impression that in the Hamas Charter the the demand for the disappearance of Israel from the map was changed that that's no longer in the Hamas Charter and that people keep talking about it as if it is they keep that as an accusation and that is no longer the case is anybody know if that's correct I mean I don't I don't think I made that up I think I think you are right yeah I did too you know before before Hamas came into existence with the help of Israel I want to stress that the they attack the Israel accused the PLO of the same stuff and so it doesn't matter who's there the project goes on and I don't think it can I really don't think it's sustainable it really isn't because you cannot hide all of these laws from from people forever you know good people Jews otherwise people are going to find out and they are finding out that they are saying this is not good and I I believe in transformation I really believe it's sooner maybe not in my lifetime I hope it is that the whole thing will be transformed into a good system a state for all of its citizens where everybody is equal under the law not the way it is now I think the melody of hope yes I have that melody we all Robin yeah okay I'm wondering when it was that the people of Gaza voted to support Hamas how many years ago that was can there be a new elections and I want to say that our my organization the women's international league for freedom will has our our platform is our and our effort is to take Hamas off of the terrorist list that how can there be you know international uh efforts at peace if the government is viewed as a tear the government which was elected by the people is viewed as a terrorist organization and we have not gotten much traction on that I think people are are afraid to say that they that Hamas should be taken off the terrorism list but the charge there the main charge is about the the Hamas call for Israel to be no longer on the map meaning the government of Israel and that is no longer there unless somebody knows differently I'm pretty sure that that's not in the charter anymore so it's funny I'll tell you I'll tell you this even if you remove Hamas now they disappear totally out of Gaza nothing will change the way Israel is constructed they do not want those Palestinians anywhere near Israel they want them stuffed where they are and if possibly you know I asked always question why would anyone continue to harangue the people in the west bank 600 checkpoints making their life miserable every second of the day going to the hospital going to work going to anywhere you are confronted by Israeli soldiers who control everything you do and they can mess up your plans every single day why would you do that why would you do that to a population if you are not intended intending to drive them out you know that's really and I don't think it's gonna work you know Israel is stuck in a situation where they want you to get rid of all the Palestinians they are not able to it's it's not I told you that I was looking and then as I said that I was like well I'm looking for somebody I don't know what that is Beth do you does anybody tell who it is can somebody yeah anyway yeah anyway I really believe the only way to solve this problem and start shoving it in the right direction is international pressure like happened in South Africa to transform it into something better than it is now it is the only way you know people don't give up their privilege very easily as we find out here you know in amongst us in the United States we still are struggling with people who believe they are so supreme to everybody else and so the only way is to for the Palestinians and I think they are there they believe it will never be homogeneous Palestinian country and for the Israelis to believe to come under pressure to believe that it has it will not be a homogeneous Jewish country and when we arrive at that and then everybody is respected and treated equally under the law a state for all its citizens good things will happen but I don't see good things happening the way it's constructed without the pressure of the international community but do you support taking Hamas off the terror you know to me it's a side issue it really is you know I'm not I'll tell you me personally I'll just tell you this honestly I'm not into any organization that has religious overtones but Hamas is not the issue you know if somebody if they decide to do that that's fine it doesn't impact me I don't for example Hamas would like an Islamic state I'm not into that so whatever happens you're not into a Christian state I'm not into a Christian state or a Jewish state by the way because elected by the people right people want that right yeah it's able to have it that's my point you know if you elect a party we it happens to us all the time we elect a party you know somebody gets elected and we don't like them very much like what happened and if you have good elections you'll get rid of them eventually and so yeah I am for free elections and whoever gets in gets in and then hopefully it gets sorted out with good elections and good system but we don't have a good system and we don't have elections you know it's not it's not allowed can I just say we had a question that came in to me today that I need to ask from an old friend of yours Eric Jacobson okay remember him um from years back he now lives in Montpelier anyway his question was to you directly Musa because he knows you and is a friend of yours what hope do you have in the young Jewish population in our country a great deal it's changing big time you know here I'll tell you what what is happening Israel now is and this is the dichotomy Israel now is I'm talking about the the political elite they are aligning themselves with the fundamentalist movement in our country because they believe they are more the the fundamentalist Christian movement in our country and the supremacist because they really believe they are more loyal to Israel than the young Jewish population so I have a great deal of hope in young Jews it's already you know look at the Jewish voice for peace and many organizations uh that are Jewish who are battling the old establishment of let me call it tribal establishment you know my tribe or your tribe and I'm telling you no tribe will win I tell people if you are dependent or hoping your tribe will win no tribe will win the only way we are going to win all of us is by transforming the system it's much bigger than Hamas and Israel and the PLO transforming the system into a good system where it is based on equality that's the only way out of this mess how about you Peter do you feel hope in the younger generation particularly of the younger Jewish generation of our country Peter's still there yeah I'm still here yeah I think there's cause for hope yes tell me what it is Jane had a question in the chat okay Jane uh Jane do you want me to just go ahead and ask yeah I'm sure sure um sorry I'm trying to work at the same time yeah um what has it been the um first first I wanted to say that that that I put this out on front porch forum and got and and got to and got two responses somebody wanted people people thought I was sandy I put her name and number and people a couple of people email me back so so this is something of it of of interest in the community and I hope that anyways then I um I have to call I have to call someone back I sent the other one your website the um and then okay the question is what has been the position of the United Nations on this and anyway you know comment on that United Nations sorry United Nations has been absolutely solid on this 67 borders must be restored including East Jerusalem still considered unoccupied territories Gaza and the West Bank all of the West Bank now the West Bank and the Golan Heights by the way we forget about the Golan Heights but Israel did the Golan Heights there were 97 villages they destroyed the only three left that's what they did in 1948 to Palestine and we forget about the Golan Heights we shouldn't but yeah I mean it's United Nations is clear that it has to be negotiated and the result it's occupied territories there's an annual vote there's an annual vote in the United Nations every uh in the Security Council the United States blocks any movement and uh or vote uh about Israel yes and in the General Assembly the votes are usually 180 to 3 like that US Israel uh about ending the occupation and all of that it happens it goes around and around and we are able to block any action because of our veto power in the Security Council right right okay I I have I think we have time for a couple more questions and and I guess I have it so in terms of any kind of peace process um what do both of you think is there any possibility of a continued peace process what yeah Peter Peter yeah it's probably that question is probably beyond my pay grade but it it seems like what the immediate focus needs to be is to provide humanitarian aid and rehabilitation aid to Gaza to help them to recover from those 11 days of bombardment in May so I think that before you talk about peace I think there needs to be a restoration and there needs to be financing from donors for the reconstruction of uh of Gaza there needs to be efforts to remove the barriers that are preventing the the the exchange of not only people but of of the most basic goods you know fuel and food and reconstruction materials there's a lot of discussion about humanitarian aid which would provide direct cash assistance to the residents of of Gaza to help them in that recovery then also there's a great need for uh providing medical assistance those who are in in need of medical assistance uh they need to have the right to transfer uh to places where they can get that that assistance Egypt or even Israel but I think that those immediate issues need to be addressed before there is broad talk of uh of of peace yeah the the blockade has to end I mean that's what Merck Levelle is saying the blockade is what's talking Gaza and as many Israeli uh peace people say Israel is actually measuring how much is needed to go into Gaza to keep them from totally starving just barely enough that's what the calculation is and as long as that exists so uh no there is no peace process aslo was a fake peace process and as I said the only way it's gonna change and transform is for all of us to work to raise our voices that this is an unacceptable system it's a supremacist system it has to transform into something better you know stop the ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem we have to speak to our representatives the State Department and to the White House which are always you know in our our reps are fantastic by the way I must say that uh Senator Leahy, Senator Sanders and Representative Walsh they are very good on all issues you know and but we need we need to raise our voices as American citizens to transform this it's not you know people tell you oh it's a complex issue stay away from it it has religion and this has nothing to do with any of the above it has with one group dominating the other like South Africa we have to end it we have to transform it that's the only way it's gonna happen that's what the BDS movement that's the BDS movement that's exactly is exactly like what happened to South Africa that's when they transformed when America especially and the last to come when with the South Africa by the way the last to come to the boycott was America and Israel to the table you know with South Africa to support the boycott to support yeah so I I really believe my hope is is large you know in young Jews in young people everywhere and us you know I'm not giving up hope on our age people we have to raise our voices and you know move things along peace process there is no such thing and it has to be forced it has to be imposed I really believe that on on both sides if no somebody else have a final question because we're running out of time but I do want one question in the I read a New York review of books article this week about stating that this last bombardment of Gaza was more or less a victory for the Palestinians because all of the past Palestinians seem to be joining together in their resistance and in their resistance to the bombardment of Gaza in other words the Palestinians and Gaza on the West Bank and also the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel or second-class is there anything to that did Israel suffer at all in its image and in any way in this last bombing of Gaza yes I believe I believe I wouldn't talk about victories on any side because this is a disaster for both the Palestinians and the Israelis Israel every time it does these horrible things it it does end up losing some of its image polished image that they worked very hard on polishing so I I believe as I said before it's not sustainable and it has to change you know that's yeah there is a question by Hamid somebody on what's the question oh yes thank you Musa thank you can you hear me all right yes right I just have a very brief comment on on the new Israeli government and their drive to peace or lack of and on the peace and justice thing I I see that there's a huge attempt by the media here to try to paint bright picture of the new Israeli government as potentially the government that will bring peace and resolve the issues now I mean as we all know by now Bennett is is more extreme than Netanyahu I mean when Netanyahu was on the far right Bennett was far that to the right he's the guy who says I killed so many Arab and there is no problem with that so his government is is the one that opposed the and insisted on the restrictions on you there was a question about easing the sort of Palestinian marine the relatives from outside Israel bringing them in there is a law that says no and there was a drive to ease that law and his government was the one that pushing for the law to stay it's the government beneath government so it's like you know you know I know the hospital is trying to paint the bright picture of that man and his government but I think we should be careful about that because the reality is is different and I also you know the question of peace and will there be a peace or not I've always maintained that I still do and I know history will do that will you know has illustrated to us over over and again and again that there is no peace without justice you you know and the Israeli government has never been interested in peace I mean since 1991 they started negotiating 1993 Oslo and since Oslo onward we are asking the Palestinian commons on the table Israel is not interested in peace that will not be anything but subjugating the Palestinian population enslaving the Palestinian population taking the land having the Palestinian population as free labor and cheap labor for them and a market for the Israeli for the Israeli economy that is peace for the Israelis nothing else so if we are talking about you know peace I think justice has to be realized and I think someone said you know PDS is the way to go I think PDS is the way South Africa apartheid regime was brought down into its knees and it was not the government of the United States it was not the government of Britain it was a people who did and the people who forced that it was that the cultural movement the scientific movement the academic movement the people in them you know going to the markets for quitting the South Africa products and I think you know that is what is going to bring justice and peace and yeah and that's that's all I have to say thank you thank you I think we are out of time unfortunately this is a discussion that I believe has been incredibly important and I believe it really should be extended and more conversations like this should happen I think with that does anybody boost our Peter have final comments and then I think we'll close for the evening and hope we can all get back together again sometime soon Peter Peter no thank you for the opportunity to participate it gave me an opportunity to to reflect on the challenges before Gaza and their immense their immense thank you Peter and thank you for establishing our sister city so many years ago and lusa also thank you yes thank you all for vicky for getting us together on this important subject and we'll continue the discussion thank you