 Hello everybody and welcome to our 42 courses speaker series. Some people are still just joining us you'll just get yourselves settled in today on what for me is it's Thursday afternoon for those of you who don't know me already I'm Louise Ward 42 courses and you can put your questions in the chat I'd love it if you'd chat to each other it's lovely to see everybody making comments as these events go on so as I say you're all very welcome and today Heather, if ever you are very welcome to our 42 courses speaker series thank you for joining us thank you for having me it's nice to be here nice to see all of you so for those of you who don't know Heather Heather is a brand consultant she's also an author of brain surfing in 2015 and as I was just saying to Heather when she joined me still receiving such lovely messages in LinkedIn of people and I'm sure from many other directions as well Heather people who are possibly just discovering your book and also what interests me so much is Heather's had what some people call a squiggly career she's branched off into healthcare into a very specialized subject of cranio sacral therapy in fact tell me how you pronounce that is that right you did it perfectly craniosyncopal therapy exactly yeah which super we'd love to hear a bit about that as well later on and I said to Heather we're happy to go in any direction she wants to go in so Heather just for those of the people who are joining us who don't know fully about yourself and your career maybe you'd like to just introduce yourself sure um thank you for having me it's nice to meet all of you um I'm originally from Texas in the US and I went to school and discovered this concept of brand strategy account planning early on in grad school and I've been doing that as a career ever since I worked in Houston I worked in Boston Richmond Virginia Miami and at that point I really wanted to live overseas and have that experience so I started looking into applying to the Foreign Service or doing you know some kind of other work overseas because it didn't really occur to me that I could keep doing the work that I love in another place but because I had done a survey for many years of people who do this kind of strategy work a few people knew me and that enabled me to get a job in Amsterdam and I worked there for five years at Tribal DDB and Strawberry Frog and you know it's pretty it's pretty cool you know growing up in Texas when like your meetings are in Dubai and Milan you know so it was a fun experience however after about 14 years of experience I still often would start projects and you know have anxiety and feel like uh you know the imposter syndrome kind of thing of like I don't necessarily know what to do and also there were there were just so many different doors opening to strategists so you can be a strategist in innovation you can specialize in social media digital transformation it's like what are what are the ways in which I want to be a strategist so um in study you know I already had a master's degree so it's like do you keep going to school do you just keep working and meeting people I had read a lot of those different books where it was a person doing an experiment for a year so there's like the book Living Biblically where the guy followed the rules of the bible there's Gretchen Rubin's The Happiness Project where she took different pillars of happiness psychology and applied them to her life for different months so those kinds of things got in under my skin and my brain and I thought you know could I apprentice with different people out there in the world and ask them you know hey can I work with you yes man yeah that's great saying yes to everything for a year exactly so I was asked can I apprentice myself to you work with you and oh by the way can I live in your house while I do it so that I can afford to make this happen and amazingly nine people agree to that and particularly like in a post-covid world and even you know that I genuinely see how being female was an advantage you know I don't think most of these families would have allowed a strange man to come into their house but a strange woman slightly less weird you know and I went to Hong Kong Singapore Beijing Shanghai three folks in London oh Brian Miller is one of the folks from London he's saying hi yeah also went to Scotland and Seattle and I worked in all kinds of different you know like Brian Miller is doing like innovation strategy and like other folks were doing social media strategy and it really opened my eyes and and really advanced my skill set too so it helped me develop these relationships with people that I continued to work with and have continued to be generous and be mentors to me in my you know the ongoing years since and then the book has really become like my you know instead of having a business card or you know it's something that I can give to people and they can particularly being a strategist seeing how someone communicates in writing is so important and this is 76 000 words of my writing outfit so I mean Heather you've touched on so many subjects there that I think lots of people will you know feel they relate to you know imposter syndrome is something that's talked about so much these days people are so much more honest and open you touch sort of on the subject of when do I become an expert you know you obviously had a lot of experience you were qualified with your masters but still there's this feeling of what is what is an expert and then I loved that this approach that you took is something that I think a lot of people don't realise which is that when you reach out to people most of the time they will they will say yes and people are often surprised about that were they surprised that so many people had agreed to your project the way that it transpired over time was you know at the time people read people's blogs more often so I just put out there in the survey and on the blog that I was interested in doing this and I wrote to a couple of people that I had a little bit closer of a relationship with like Rob Campbell who was at Wyden in Shanghai he's since gone on to he's in New Zealand now but them sending me back messages saying like I love this idea or you know having a few people having said yes made me you know I started it with only like four people having said yes so the other yeses came in over time so and for those who don't know the book it's basically visiting and learning from what would be now and at the time the top sort of marketing strategies strategists in the world and again that concept of learning from people as opposed to sort of textbook learning the value of that to to like to maybe sort of touch on how you felt you learned differently in that way. The book The Craftsman by Richard Sennett was really impactful toward me and where they talk about how people learn their different skill sets and the way that it used to be apprentice then journeyman and then master and that's how you become a master so this idea of a journeyman going around and watching different masters and you know taking up whatever works for you and casting aside what doesn't before because that's really what being a master is is finding the lens of you that's what I ultimately learned is that you have to figure out what kinds of things are you not only good at because you can be good at things you don't like to do but it's what are you good at that you also enjoy doing so. And again you touched on talking about the subject of strategy the way in which it can cover so many diverse subjects is that something that you think you've seen a change in recently or do you think people still need to be covering the skill set? I think people still do specialize so I think you have to figure out there are people who are more generalists and they're skillful at that and then most people choose some sort of niche in some way and it's usually based on what they like to do so I'm not the strategist who wants to really dig into the do quantitative that much you know I'll do it here and there but I really love doing the qualitative primary research so I get more of those projects. And of course it is very much has very much been a journey for you lots of people talk about their journey but yours really was a physical journey as well as as well as a mental journey and I wonder again how much you think that really helped you with the travel as well as the diverse people that you spoke to? I mean maybe since learning more about the brain actually going to different learning things in a geolocated placemaking way of like oh I learned this in Hong Kong I learned this in Soho in London versus and you know I learned this in that space because have you heard of the concept of a memory palace? Yes do do expand for anyone who's not familiar with the term. Just the idea that you can use your imagination to create a space where you then attribute different learnings or you're remembering things and attributing them to a place so I've gone through this life experience of placemaking and learning so it is I think an advantage in terms of how you learn as opposed to if you always stayed in one place. Well we're all in favor of wide learning and learning from other people there's you know there's nothing like it and then if I understand correctly your subsequent interest in the craniosacral therapy came from a personal health experience is that right? Exactly yeah while touch on Chris's comment first like he was asking if there's a strat processor model that I loved the most or all kind of the same they're all kind of the same man like you know the four C's are kind of a classic and everybody is kind of doing those but there are different ways of you know I see it as we do some sort of discovery we do some sort of analysis and then there needs to be some sort of activation of action based on those that's what strategy is and that's what everybody's doing but there there are definitely different flavors to get there so but then the the help aspect was you know from partly I had an abdominal surgery to remove a benign tumor and just in many cultures are like this but in American culture they don't particularly give you advice on how to recover from such an experience and then on top of that now that I'm where I am I understand like if you curl up on a laptop all the time your body will stick like that there's a property called thickstropy that the body shares with like marmalade and motor oil of like getting thicker you know and stickier if it doesn't move and that that can happen to us and we have all the we can have all these restrictions in the body that I personally had used massage as a tool to manage my stress over the years and after I was just experiencing this pain in my shoulder and my hip for a long time I'd paid a lot of money going to practitioners because at least in the U.S. a lot of the things that are more holistic health are not covered by insurance and those were the things that seem to be helping me so along my journey I mean I also when I moved back from Europe to the U.S. I felt like I didn't understand the U.S. anymore like when Trump happened having grown up in Texas and feeling like whoa who are you people what are you doing you know so at the time I was married to a Dutch person who also hadn't had much of an experience in the U.S. and so we wanted to travel around so we live nomadically and you know I worked on a cannabis farm for six months I went to the national most of the national parks I went to the red pill conference which is like a right-wing conspiracy theory conference sat in the back you know and learned just a lot more about the U.S. and you know and giving me the opportunity to to see where do I want to live here in the U.S. is a lot like Europe and we were each state is like its own country and has its own culture in a lot of ways so there's a lot of of permutations to consider and be able to you know work over here so it takes a long time so that's been sort of my meandering past eight years of working in all kinds of different places and in the meantime I had these pains and it was it was parallel the the journey of of working in strategy and trying to figure out and sort out the pain and so ultimately decided to live in Portland for a while needed to be in one place and sleep in my own bed and I decided to go to massage school just because I wanted to you receive about three to five massages a week in massage school you have to be willing to also do that with your fellow students and after the massage school is broken up into three month chunks for a year after three months I still had pain I'll keep going so after five months I still had some pain and a friend of mine said you know you should go see my neighbor I don't know what he does but people travel from all over the country to see him and he also sees locals so I go to see Dave and this was a therapy where you wear your clothing he didn't explain that much about it you know so you lay down face up and then he gently touched me you know in inappropriate ways but gently touching me and I'm like what kind of bullshit is this this is a job you know and I did feel more relaxed after the first session and I trusted the recommendation so much like this is a man who Dave Monette had been a famous you know a skilled musician he worked with other musicians he had gotten himself into pain and he got himself out through craniosacral therapy and that's why he practices it but he also builds trumpets and commissions you know for famous musicians you know so he has a squiggly career as well so I felt like he was a substantial person like he had put all this effort into learning this what I now call an assisted nap you know that is the not over promising version of selling it you know it's like an assisted nap but the second time that I went I felt relatively even keeled but within five minutes I started experiencing what's called a somatic emotional release so I was crying for an hour and I very much was experiencing and could knowingly that I was experiencing I have lost a couple of uncles to suicide a friend in high school to suicide very sad things have happened you know I lost a mentor to an aneurysm Reuben from the book died five years ago from cancer you know so those very sad things can get stored in our body maybe you've come across the book the body keeps the score it's pretty famous so that idea of you know you can process some of these things mentally like I did go to to therapy and I highly recommend EMDR if this is something you know if if trauma is part of any of your experience but that may not necessarily do it so craniosacral is another kind of therapy where you don't necessarily need to talk about it and it's about finding where restrictions are in the body and they can be either physical like if you've had a head trauma like you play football or something or it could be this kind of emotional trauma where the restrictions can't get stored in the body and then it's craniosacral so cranium or more familiar with the cranium we're not as familiar with the sacrum which is the bone just above the tailbone so from head to tail this is kind of head to tail therapy and you see these different colors of bones here they used to think that the adult skull many of you probably have children did any of you notice their skulls as as babies they go like this yes well that's the soft spot but did you notice the movement of the skull like it slightly would expand this way and this way have I got any anybody noticing that so that actually still happens as an adult but it's almost imperceptible there's still living tissue here in between these sutures of the skull and they didn't really know that because most of the time when they would look at a human body a deceased human they would look at preserved cadavers and that destroys this tissue so folks like myself who study this particular therapy we do dissections and we study bodies that are very recently deceased they're totally fresh and they haven't been involved at all so it's important to know that these bones still have a slight bit of give in between each of them and there's a lot of them and particularly the pink one can you see how the pink is behind the eyeballs and it touches a lot of other bones that bones called the sphenoid and it's kind of like the keystone of the skull and what's also important to know is here is a model of the membranes that are inside your head so can you imagine your brain around here okay and that these membranes are more like balloons and your brains are more like yogurt or sabayon one of my favorite desserts and that you've also got the membrane around the brain and down the spinal cord and it's a it's a semi hydraulic system hydraulics you've probably heard from your car you know so thinking about hydraulics of smoothing the ride there's a little bit of fluid in between these membranes you've heard of meningitis that's the three membranes becoming infected so there's a very close membrane fluid another membrane fluid and the outer membrane so that's what and these with these protect your brain so that when you turn your head your brain doesn't get scrambled when you jump and land you know that's why it exists this way it's designed for purpose but if you get hit in the head if you you can get restrictions on these membranes so if you can imagine this inside of the head and you're like gently like a tugboat on the ears that is stretching these membranes you know and so that that's what's going on inside the head there's other moves for the the spinal cord and then the extension of it is that this cranial sacral rhythm this this three to five ounces of fluid around the brain and spinal cord is in this hydraulic system it's going kind of like a lazy river around bathing it in neurotransmitters and it gets reabsorbed and and and uptake and then new fresh stuff comes out about like several times per day and that rhythm gives us information so most of the people who practice this kind of therapy are like myself i consider myself a highly sensitive person i'm going to be able to hear a conversation from farther away than maybe another person i'm more bothered by bright lights than maybe another person so the same way that we could line up according to height we could all line up according to how sensitive our nervous systems are so if i'm able to put my hands and they're also trained now i can tell the difference between your circulatory system your respiration and this thing the cranial sacral rhythm and as i put my hands on different parts of the body underneath the heels on the tops of the thighs on the hip bones on the ribs your feeling can you feel the rhythm or not and when you can't feel it there's some restriction there and we should go work there and then there's some other phenomenon like i've done hundreds of hours of training now of this you know there's other phenomenon as you get deeper into it of when the rhythm is not perceptible to the therapist the person might be going into the somatic emotional release so we will then say you know are you experiencing some kind of memory or thought just now was that significant to you it's called the significance detector and and we work together as a team of we use a projective technique that this is actually something that is very similar to brand planning if any of you have done the kind of projective techniques of if your brand were a party what kind of party would it be would it be a backyard barbecue or a fancy cocktail party in this realm it's imagine you have an inner wisdom an inner physician somebody that has seen everything that louise has been through her whole life everything that has happened to louise is on louise's side what would they say about whatever health issue that you're experiencing you know so somebody that's experiencing cancer might have the revelation of shit i just need to relax more about life you know and then their whole body relaxes so that's a long winded but it's it's so fascinating to me and it it helps me down regulate my nervous system and handle what is a stressful career advertising you know marketing branding but it's something that i love and i love engaging in the cerebral interestingness of it but by doing this work a little bit too to the soft hot you know whistling read music and and knowing that i'm helping people you know that's a nice balance for my life it's a fascinating subject and a fascinating story really of the way in which your career changed and i mean i went to study as a mature student rather late in life and what interests me is what impact do you feel this subsequent learning as you know on who you i mean we change with each new thing we learn and as you said possibly it's helping you now deal with stressful situations that you wouldn't have been so comfortable in when you were younger and i'm really curious as to you know where you think you are now with your sort of all this new acquired learning well in the past year i've also started working with a natural path to you know really improve my health so there's a little bit of a you don't want to get obsessed with it because there are a lot of toxins in the world that you know you can get really obsessed with how you eat and all the movement and getting enough exercise so i'm a little bit too obsessed and i'd like to dial it back a little bit but let's see well one one thing i think about is like i definitely have a vision of where i would like my career to go that is weird you know it's not what is normal for today but i think that there have been cultural signals that it it could be possible and let me explain what i mean by that have you seen the tv show billions by any chance yes right okay so it's pretty popular tv show set in a hedge fund and there's a character called wendy rhodes who is both a psychologist and like a performance coach is how she's portrayed but she's also the head of hr and you know i'm i do see that more and more where there's like director of wellness yeah you want to one day for your company i want to be a one day because there is conversation that happens while you're on the table it's not always completely silent and an assisted nap so and the things that are bothering you and your work the problems that you're not able to solve in that moment those are the things that you're thinking it over and that you know create tension patterns and constriction patterns in the body so it very much could be in my opinion you could do both you could do strategy work and hands-on bodywork and guided fitness instruction i i'm becoming a pilates instructor too but let's not you know like we should be moving all the time like if we're moving our spines while we do this like i'm arching and curling my spine what would you call that role i would call it probably wellness director slash strategy director or performance coach i don't know but like all this movement stuff we could be it just it feels weird right like why is she doing but i wouldn't have been in the pain that i was in you have 33 vertebra and all these different muscles and connective tissue around them and they need to move in their full range of motion every day so when we sit still we're inviting pain into our lives fascinating it's so interesting hearing you talk about these subjects i've just seen a nice question pop up from uh susanne now i can read your question susanne but if you've got uh camera with i could ask you to unmute yourself and maybe ask your question to heather can you hear me susanne she's like get back to the brand strategy susanne hi hi heather hello hi christ nice seeing you in person but it's really rude to be without camera sorry about that i'm a little sick so um i decided not to put that on you so hi that's me you know not on the best of health so i'm glad to hear about um how you cope with your you know with the stress level and it's always good to hear that we're all the same boat but um i would love to hear how that affected work as a brand strategist and also i'm really curious you've worked with so many great brands to hear a bit more about um you know how you uh approach your creative work or you know maybe some some interesting projects that you can um tell us a little bit more about thanks so much susanne that'd be really great i think the way that it's affected me the most is in the kinds of you know i'm not i haven't really been suited for full-time work for a while so being a freelancer has enabled me to do all of these things and design my life in a way of where i can go off and do a four-day training of craniosacral and then come back and do this work um and then some of the work that i've done more recently i really love like i said doing that primary research so stakeholder interviews um thought leaders in a category customer interviews and then figuring out what are the personas of the different types of buyers what are the persona or personas of the most possible growth audience and then what are the journeys that those people go through in terms of discovering brands and you know analyzing and choosing having the experience and then you know using and continuing over time so an example project would be uh i did a project with venables bell with discount tire and tire rack so those are discount tires are very large tire retailer in america and tire rack is an online seller of tires so discount tire had bought tire rack both companies have very interesting histories of you know long term here in the u.s both founded by immigrants who'd come into the country looking to make their way in the country and but had different audiences you know we came to discover they know i did like 28 interviews with uh the leadership of those two companies and then we did different interviews with folks who had used those different brands and had also bought at places like casco or you know firestone those kind of places and um came to find out that like the person that's going to the discount tire store is more of the person who wants to be guided they want a sort of basic tire you know i want something good enough you know whereas the tire rack person is more of a car aficionado and they can tell the difference between an aggressive looking aesthetic of a tire they can you know they care about how the road sound of the tire and the feel and so they actually have all these different folks that you can call up and talk on the phone as you're debating which they're tire experts they really truly are tire experts so the all that to say is like figuring out those personas figuring out those journeys having a workshop experience to to fine tune it and come to consensus together one of my favorite activities is coming up with platform concepts for positionings and then having the respondents tell me like if i gave you a thousand dollars for this and you you were going to give advice to this company how would you invest it would you put it all in on concept a or would you divide it up between a b c d e and then i have the my colleagues that i'm working with do the same the client and the in our you know agency folks and we come together and compare the difference of where maybe the client sees the energy and the growth potential is different than where the customer sees it and that can be a really eye-opening thing and then going to the end taking that that insight and coming up with a final brand platform and then ultimately like a creative brand brief is you know the kind of that's a more complete project that i really like to do i also last year an agency hired me that i had freelance with before they had a large strategy team of mostly folks with less than two years of experience and the head of the department also needed to be working and couldn't be training all of them so i came in and designed a multi-month training program where i interviewed them one-on-one and i would say like this is another place where my therapeutic relationship skills come to play of being able to use my skills and abilities to focus on another person and help them see insights into themselves about what kind of strategist they want to be and where to put emphasis in their career and and then designed the course in a way that was bespoke to that group of people and we worked together and then they did an example brand platform and and creative briefers for a brand that they picked of their choice so that's another example of something i've done pitches helped helped venables win an electric vehicle account after losing outies that was a nice win what else fascinating stories there heather and i think we're really interested in the techniques that you're describing and i'm just looking there on the customer persona work okay you did i'm kind of curious as to how you think that's that's changed recently they used to be quite strict um uh stratification say in terms of you know social class and age group and it's much more fluid now isn't it in terms of maybe yeah there may be a talk a little bit about that because i think that's very interesting yeah because i do think that's a shift like where businesses still will do a big quantitative segmentation study but i found it's it's faster and better oftentimes to do it qualitatively so just in a matter of you know 16 25 interviews with people depending on how many categories that you can learn and and have a pretty good understanding of you know of the sorting that matters like what are the reasons why this person is in this category what are the reasons and thinking and emotions around um the way that they buy and that we could tap into and be meaningful what did we do when we were pitching to find the right insights to help the teams get that right answers so that one yeah we absolutely did not have huge access to the client in that case it was a i think it's okay to talk about this you guys are in the UK but the brand is international scout it's in the press so it's fine um and Volkswagen purchased this brand and it existed here in the states between um like 1950 to late 1970s and it's it looks a lot like the Ford Bronco Ford Bronco was inspired by international scout so there's a lot of nostalgia of this being connected to international harvester this was a sub brand of international harvester and international harvester makes combines and other tractors and agriculture heavy equipment so it has that kind of connection so you've got the nostalgia you've got the americana you've got the roots to um to agriculture but then we did some interviews with folks who were you know people who buy pickup trucks and SUVs and who would consider electric in the future and by talking to them and really you know understanding that um partly the the client came to us with this idea of we want to target middle americans and i found a stat where it was 86 percent of americans consider themselves to be in the middle so if so many people if everybody thinks that they're in the middle then it came down to what's some sort of psychological mindset thing that connects them and and the thing that bubbled up was this idea of respect it came from a particular think tank quote that i can't remember it but you see respect you know when you watch a reality tv show of like you're disrespecting me of like respect is something that we talk about a lot in the in the us and it's a um you know something that can be really quickly triggered here so the way that we're making meaning in this case is like this is an electric vehicle that respects the earth this is an SUV that respects mother earth and that really became the idea of like how can we show that this is about respecting nature and that became um respect your mother became the line so and it was like you know your mother taught you this and it's really gritty kind of language and tone and but you know and then of course like lots of beauty shots of the SUV driving in mud and stuff of like yeah by being in nature you're respecting your mother as well it's fascinating to hear the journey of how how that was created there seems to be so much emphasis still on you know always got to appeal to gen zed or but but we were really trying to find the the core person as opposed to the age and the social class and that's a real core value that you established then but I think it's also the balancing act of the four C's and I call it what is the imperative what is the customer imperative what is the category imperative like imperative meaning you know what what must happen like what is this because of this particular time and space and history of this brand for these people what is the imperative and so and that also attunes a little bit with the craniosacral of energy I used to think being like growing up in Texas that energy was a very woo-woo concept I have I have a visual aid here louis have you ever seen a toy called an energy stick what's going to happen I haven't know oh can you explain can anyone in the room explain how this toy works please feel free to unmute yourself and jump in if you know what Heather's doing is it just static electricity or something from and I just want to jump in there this is just creating a you're not just creating a circuit from one side to the other side yes exactly so with this toy what I couldn't see the person who said I think that was Chris okay good job Chris your your our bodies are conductive and the way that we send messages from the brain of like we should do this the motor control center is like do it like this do it now you know that those messages get sent with salts and electricity through water basically and in other words you're the lemon yeah they are conductive yeah and so being able to see something like this and when the first time I saw this toy it blew my mind you know because we did it in class and so louis if I were to be able to reach through the screen and let you hold this end it wouldn't turn on we would need to do et phone home with our other hands and then it would turn on so you're holding this end and then that that finger we're touching okay if we held hands with everybody in the room 50 people a thousand people it would turn off that's amazing so it turns off and it is kind of amazing so back to that idea of energy energy is real energy is being able to hear my voice energy is is the light photons being able to allow me to read a word on a piece of paper and energy is around ideas that are powerful so that's another place where I see it connect fascinating I totally did not know we were going to going in this direction during the conversation today and I can assure you Chris loves toys and I feel that he's going to leave this event and be on eight pounds on an order one of those little toys maybe to be used in a video in one of our courses in the future maybe so you can all look out for that when I'm doing these interviews okay well so if it's cheap and cheerful on a new business pitch it's usually through connections so that is another benefit of having a squiggly career of I'll tell you the folks that we interviewed one person was a former group strategy director when I was an intern in Austin he's since had left the advertising business and gone back to Midland Texas to run his family's oil and gas business and so he owned several big trucks and buys expensive trucks and was considering electric one of the other people was my ex-husband's boss in Florida who ran a bike shop you know so he also had a big pickup truck so it's just I happen to know people and more and more I like that way of recruiting based on through people that we know that have these particular profiles that make them a really great customer so one of the innovation companies I've worked with called Takeout in the UK I don't know if you've come across Judith Clegg runs that company it's really an amazing company and they're very very good about deeply finding recruiting and like contacting people on Facebook who might be the right kind of person so like one project I did with them was for Samsung with a high-end range of kitchen appliances so we wanted to go to see very fancy people's homes who had spent over I think they had to have spent over $150,000 on their kitchen renovation so we were in really nice really nice homes talking about how they chose between Miele and Wolf and Viking and you know those kinds of brands and would they ever choose a Samsung if it were nice enough so but sometimes we do use recruiting companies they you know like for the tire one we had a list of customers from the client and then like finding the folks who'd bought with Costco and others they have a database that they start from and and find them well it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you Heather and I really do appreciate you joining us today to share all of your stories and I think certainly it's been an example of a never knowing in which direction your your life and your career is going to go but also seeing how your learnings however diverse they are and always loop back and and reconnect and contribute kind of to what is your your core interest and I think that really shines forward from you Heather that you've got a you know a passion for your new learnings but we can see as well you're always drawing them back to you know what are your original interests there's only final messages that you want to leave to the the people who have joined us today what's your leaving parting message go to iahp.com and find a person near you iahp.com find a therapist and go experience the assisted nap that is crazy it'll make you better at whatever you do i wonder how many people joining us today will this will be recorded so you'll be able to any nap and maybe take a nap while you listen to it again i really appreciate you joining us I think everybody's so much for taking your time in your busy days to join us and to hear the wisdom from from Heather and I hope that you will all join us again for a future speaker series thank you very much everybody and thank you for joining us and thank you so much Heather thank you