 Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for being here with us today. On behalf of the Economic Times, it's my pleasure to welcome everyone to the latest edition of ET Conversations, our initiative to create awareness with the economic, social and sustainability. We all get embroiled in our immediate challenges, issues like the pandemic, the looming recession, the Ukraine war, the growing social unrest occupy the top of our mind. But there's a larger crisis looming ahead of us, the very sustainability of our planet for the future generations is at stake. While there's awareness on climate change, environmental degradation and global warming, this only form a small part of the larger picture. They saved the soil initiative being championed by Sadhguru as we saw in the video just now and Isha Foundation has brought the issue to light and shall have a profound impact on generations to come. It takes a spiritual master like Sadhguru, I did hear the video yesterday also, but it takes a spiritual master like you to take us to the realm of a longer term sustainability of the soil, the very source of our nutrition, our survival. The UN data shows that the human damage to the soil is accelerating with up to 40% now classified as degraded soil. Where are we going to find food to feed and sustain the 8.5 billion population forecast by 2030? The economic times has always spotlighted India's most pressing challenges. Times of India to its evoke initiative has created awareness on environment and sustainability. Today we are privileged to have Sadhguru himself who is championing the cause of save the soil. Sadhguru is the founder of the Isha Foundation, has touched the lives of millions, actually I should say billions now with the Save the Soil Foundation, Save the Soil initiative around the world over the transformational programs. Over the years he has also launched several path-making initiatives like educational health and community revitalization efforts like Rally for Rivers, Project Greenhands, Action for Rural, Regional Rejuvenation and Cauvery Calling. Currently the mistake is on a 100 day, 30,000 kilometer solar motorcycle journey. Today also he came in motorcycle if any of you want to know. 27 countries to promote the soil conservation movement. The driving belief behind the initiative is soil is not a resource, it is the very source of our life. Arundhati Bhattacharya, the chairperson and CEO of Salesforce in India and the first woman to be the chairperson of State Bank of India has kindly consented to lead the discussions this evening. She is the chairperson of Swift India and sits on the Reliance Industry Board. On behalf of the economic times and the Times of India group we are privileged to welcome Sadhguru and Arundhati. I once again like to thank everyone present here on the confidence repost in the economic times, the most-read business daily in India and also the fourth largest English newspaper. Thank you and over to our distinguished speakers. Thank you. Namaste, good evening everybody and thank you very much. And Sadhguru, my real respect and pranam to you for all that you have been doing. But to just kick off the discussions for today, I think let's go to the primary basic question which is you know if you look at corporates around the world, if you look at individuals around the world, a lot of people talk about climate change, they talk about global warming, they talk about air quality, they talk about lack of drinking water, they talk about a lot of things. But you know nobody has really lashed on to the concept of soil. So what led you to it? And why soil? Why do you think it's the primary cause for which you led such a huge movement? Namaskaram to everyone, good evening. I've been talking about soil for thirty years now and You need this? No, I have a beard. Okay. It's alright. For the last thirty years I've been talking about soil. I've spoken to ministers, I've spoken to heads of state, I've spoken to various bureaucrats, responsible people in the society. Everybody says, dhutgro, this is fantastic. We never knew this is great and they'll sleep on it. So I've been wondering what is it that takes for people to wake up really? And as I speak to various agricultural ministries around the world, I've found that everybody knows the problem. All the soil scientists know the problem. Most agricultural ministries in the major nations know the problem and they also know the general direction of the solution where we should go. So I realized they know the problem, they know the solution, they are waiting for an idiot to bell the cat. So here I am because it's always the tradition in our country and everywhere to bell the cat, to do something dangerous, to do something that could make you like an idiot. You always choose a village idiot to do it. So I'm somebody who's got nothing to lose. I have no election to win. I have no money to make. I have no salary to receive from anybody. So I thought I could do what I want and what is needed because you must understand even in large conventions where the entire world sits together. Just in January we had a large convention. I've spoken to many environment ministers who attended this convention for two weeks and they said, «Sadhguru, we were there for two weeks. We did not hear the word soil, why? I said, you must ask that question because I don't want to get into the politics of why because I need those people also for safe soil movement. So I'm not willing to divide those who have consciously avoided this. But you talked about water, air. There are many ways to put this into context with considering the time. Let me put it this way. Every scientist who studies this aspect knows this that approximately a billion years ago some one very smart algae or a fungi came up with an idea of wanting to cook their food using the perpetual energy of the sun. That phenomena today we call as photosynthesis. Before the phenomena of photosynthesis started the atmospheric oxygen was a shade over one percent. Today it is twenty-one percent. This twenty-one percent oxygen is not only keeping us alive right now helping us to breathe. It is the basis of our evolution. Complex life on this planet happened only as oxygen levels in the atmosphere went on increasing and that is a consequence of photosynthesis. But in the last thousand years we have removed eighty-five percent of the photosynthesis on the planet. What's our plan really? So how do I know this? What am I? Am I a soil scientist? Am I an environmentalist? Ecologist? None of these. I'm like a worm on this planet. I live on this planet. I crawl on this planet. Six-and-a-half decades I've been crawling around on this planet, feeling it. Isn't everybody doing it? No. They've built their own worlds in their head. I didn't build any of my own. So I live on this planet. Others live in their psychological spaces. They've built their own individual world. In your group I'm sure it's fashionable to say corporate world. So you have a different world. I live on this world. I think it's time everybody lives on this world because this is the only damn world we have to really live if you want to live. So, Sadhguru, I agree you know that the basis of life as you say, it's this world and this soil, this earth that we are talking about. We in the Eastern philosophy we talk about the Panchabhuta and obviously the earth is very much part of that. So just talking about air and water doesn't cut it. Ultimately it comes down to the soil. No. Water and air are products of soil. Right. Without rich soil none of these things will be available the way we know it. Right. And I think you said somewhere also as to the amount of water that can be retained in soil. It's besides the rivers and ponds and lakes, you know the mere capacity of soil to hold water. You talked about that somewhere as well I think. See the water, excess water should go into ponds and rivers but the water should be generally in the soil. Soil should be moist always. Only then the microbial activity is at its full scale. When we say microbial activity, we are not talking about some creatures. We are talking about the source of our life. Sixty percent of our bodies today are still microbes. Only forty percent is genetic material. Sixty percent are microbes here and the same is true with the soil. So what is happening in the soil, these fifteen to eighteen inches of topsoil is a magical material which has generated every other creature on this planet. Whatever you've seen as life, whether it's a worm or an insect or a bird or a tree or an animal or human beings, every one of them are a product of the life that is happening within fifteen to eighteen inches of topsoil. To create one inch of topsoil, it would take six hundred to eight hundred years. That is if there was no human footprint. Today with the present level of human footprint, to create one inch of soil it would take thirteen thousand years. But nearly fifty percent of the soil, topsoil is gone. And which reminds me, Sadhguru, you know of one of the experiences I had when I was in my earlier organization and I was looking at some cane farmers and these cane farmers what they would do is, in the night they would switch on the pumps and in the morning they would switch off the pumps and in the meanwhile the whole place would be flooded so they were doing what is called flood irrigation. But as a result of it, much of the topsoil was getting drained out into the ponds etc. along with the fertilizers and things. The ponds were silting up. The topsoil was eroding and they were using more and more fertilizers. These fertilizers going into the ponds in turn were creating more weeds and things like that and silting it up and therefore the water, the capacity, the retention capacity of those water bodies was going down. The topsoil was going and yet you know, they had no understanding of what they were doing and that is my question that you know, when we are talking about soil you are creating this awareness all around. But if you look at the poor farmers today in India they have these very small holdings and they want to maximize their production. So they use resources which they feel will give them better production because they need more income. So how is it that we are going to raise the awareness of such people who you know are really dependent on the soil and who feel that the only way of getting more out of it is using practices which are not really the right kind of practices. How do we bring about that awareness in all of them? When it comes to the farmer preaching and teaching is of no use because farm economy is so fragile if you just touch a little collapse it's in that kind of condition. You have obviously heard about the suicides people are disputing the numbers is it three hundred thousand, is it two fifty thousand we must be ashamed whether it's quarter million or three hundred thousand is a big debate going on. Even if it's hundred thousand people even if it's one man committed suicide because of soil degradation that he's not able to farm the way he wants we must be looking of how to change this. So there is no point preaching and teaching the farmer. The whole economic policy that we have done we have prepared hundred and ninety-three documents which are handbooks for making policy for one hundred and ninety-three nations unique documents depending upon the latitudinal position the soil type the economic condition of a given nation and its agricultural traditions. Why agricultural traditions are important is even if you have all the science with you still you cannot change the agricultural practices overnight which is what you're talking about. So the important thing is it has to be incentive driven when I say incentive driven can I take a minute or two please? Yes of course, of course take as much time we want to hear your ideas that's the main thing. When I say incentive driven see right now in the in the marketplace people are talking about organic food. This is a word coined by urban populations who do not know one thing from the other when it comes to farming. I'm sorry I'm speaking like this but this is a fact because people are saying farmers should do organic farming you don't know what farming is. I want you to understand if you remove all the pesticides and fertilizers from the world today tomorrow our food production will be twenty-five percent of what it is and that will be the worst disaster you will unfold in the world. So it's very important to understand that farmer doesn't enjoy throwing fertilizer like this as people are imagining fertilizer is very expensive every handful that he throws it hurts him because it costs him lot of money he's throwing it because soil is in that condition if you do not put that much fertilizer nothing will come out of it. The practice that you said of you know flood irrigation flood irrigation has essentially come to us because of canal irrigation where the government says you will get only three hours of water so he wants to get all the water he can get and he's also dug one open well next to his field so that his well also fills up he doesn't want to lose out the water three hours of water whatever he can get he wants to get which will cause a lot of damage to the soil of course, but you must understand his condition because once in fifteen days or once in a month three hours four hours when the canal opens up for him he wants all of it all that he can get it is like a hungry child trying to eat up three meals in one meal when he stout out when he's not sure when the next meal is coming this is the condition of the farmer so the important thing is there has to be an incentive right now the shameful thing in the world is not a single nation not even one nation on the planet has the minimum three percent organic content UN goes about to say if you want to call soil as soil there must be three percent organic content otherwise it's becoming sand but not a single nation has that the highest the average that you have in the world right now is northern Europe which is one point four eight percent southern Europe is one point one percent United States of America is one point two five percent India is zero point six eight percent Africa as a continent average is zero point three percent in the last twenty-five years ten percent of the world's land has turned into deserts ten percent in twenty-five years so this is where we are going so what is the solution because fifty-four percent of the world's arable land is formed and another eighteen to twenty percent is marginally or partly formed nearly seventy-one percent of the land is underplowed another four point two percent is paved because of urban developments so totally seventy-six percent of the land is either plowed or paved so where is the photosynthesis just look at our lands look at our farms what do you see you just see brown soil and machines do you see any vegetation do you see any animals no there are only two sources of organic content in the world not only in the world in the known universe plant life and animal life there is simply no other way there is no other way that you can bring organic content from somewhere else it is only plant life and animal life both have disappeared from the farms if you farm like this in twenty-five to thirty years your soil however rich it was it will be degenerated that's what has happened now we need to set up an incentive this is what we are pushing for with all the governments whatever the percentage is right now if you get it to three percent you will get a certain incentive if you make the incentive attractive enough most farmers will go for it in a country like India eighty-four point two percent of the farmers are small and marginal farmers that means below five acres of land but they cover only forty-seven point six percent of the land area but these are easy to bring fruits because they were willing to do it for small incentives even a small incentive is a big incentive for him so we could go that way how the government makes its policies left to that but I am just saying one thing is the incentive to get them there next thing is in the hands of all of you the corporate world in the world can I call you that corporate world in the world so there is something called as carbon credit market last seven years we've been trying hard to get some kind of carbon credit benefits to our farmers it's an impossible maze just not able to get across we have not had an inch of success because it looks like the whole thing is designed for industry the same template is being imposed upon the farmer there is no way we can get that so we are pushing with the central government in India and also some of the world bodies that you must make the carbon credit scheme for the farmers very simple not in the usual measurable way as it's with the industry with the industry you can measure with land how much carbon dioxide it emits when it's in a certain condition or methane it emits or how much it sequesters it is different from moment to moment or at least minute to minute early morning if you go there when the sun is just coming up it will be one way two hours it will be different way if it's a humid day it will be one way if it's a dry day it will be another way nobody can ever measure it exactly but we can arrive at a common number that if somebody has minimum three percent organic content he will get so much carbon credit because generally we know how much a certain type of land would sequester so if you put up such a number then for today there is discussion in the UN and also in the economic forum about fixing somewhere between $10, $28 to $100 for a per acre if that kind of benefit comes to the farmer definitely the second level of incentive will work the third level of incentive again could come down to you all of you is that the market should recognize this right now if you go to the marketplace they are saying this mango is organic what is the other one is it inorganic hello is the other one inorganic anything now people are talking about no certain amount of fertilizer, pesticide when to it this is all false when did a farmer apply the pesticide when it was flowering when it was fruiting or after it is fruited what has he done which time has he done all this will decide how much has actually gotten into it or not gotten into it the same goes for fertilizer when did he apply the fertilizer so these things to measure in a given mango or a vegetable or a fruit or whatever he is a very complex lab affair this is why it is very important we just measure the organic content if you measure the organic content the measurement can happen on the farm in ten fifteen minutes time this is very important otherwise if you make lab process compulsory or requirement mandatory then as in courts we have some one point two crore cases waiting many of you in businesses you must know you have cases which are twenty five years old and every day you have to push it and it doesn't go anywhere the same will happen with this whatever kind of lab infrastructure you build you will end up with a backlog that you cannot clear so it's important that it is settled on the farm it can be done like this there are simple instruments with which if you put a solvent you can through the video I'm saying online you can make the farmer say okay take this sample take that sample ten different places in your land measure in front of me if you measure there right there in ten minutes you can certify okay this has three percent organic content if you do this only then incentives will mean something otherwise incentives will end up in the backlog so in the marketplace if this mango is coming from three percent organic content we already have enough science to tell us how much micronutrients are present in this three percent organic field mango so what are the health benefits what are the preventive health benefits what are the benefits in terms of you know lack of loss of my mandates what is the benefit in terms of health and creativity of the human beings and how the state will benefit by reducing the stress on the healthcare system there are many things all this data is there we can put across all that so if it is three percent if it is one percent you are paying let's say ten rupees if it is three percent organic content farm you are paying maybe twelve rupees or fifteen rupees if it is six percent maybe you are paying twenty rupees but instead of eating six or twelve mangoes you can eat one mango and it fulfills your nourishment requirement and one important thing that will happen is once the micronutrient level is higher in the food the volume of food that you feel like eating will come down significantly Satguru frankly speaking you know it's a fantastic idea regarding carbon credit for farmers something at least I had never thought of at all because the idea of carbon credit itself is so complex and to actually employ it like you know the way you described it it's almost like you know the people who supply milk to the amul depots you know you come put it in the machine it asserts the contents and it immediately credits the money into your account so if something like that could work I was in Banas you know on the way I was in Banas where this is a super success probably this is one of the most successful cooperative movements in the world the way the life in that desolate land has changed for people this needs to happen everywhere we are running FPO's in southern India 23 FPO's we are running one of our FPO has been awarded as the best FPO in the country and incomes have gone up in the last twenty seven years we have worked with about 1.3 lakh farmers incomes have gone up anywhere between 300 to 800 percent because soil has to be rich this is very important and the important thing about soil is nobody is in disagreement till now I have not met one person who says no it's not necessary whether it is oil industry coal industry, automobile industry whatever industry you are running fertilizer industry doesn't matter who rich soil is it good for you everybody says yes so when you have such a thing one important thing that I am pushing for in the world bodies and also in the Indian government and the state government sees to address soil separately from other environmental concerns if you mix it up with that this will go into endless debate decades of debate has been happening not moving anywhere because always environmentalist means he is trying to hit some industry this has become the norm go out on the street and scream against this person or that person and say pull down this industry, shut down that industry industries are not built overnight it cannot be shut down overnight if at all if wrong things are happening when I say wrong things we have done out of ignorance we have done certain things if you want to correct if you want to transform the industry certain amount of time and a certain incentive otherwise it will not happen if you are practical if you want a solution if you just like debate if you like conferences that's a different matter because a whole lot of people are thriving and conferences this is what I see really they just like to go to conferences their profession is to be in the conferences you know you talked about all the corporates and you know there are a number of corporates here I personally am part of the corporate sector as well you know it's true that there is a lot of awareness amongst corporates so policies are in place budgets are in place processes are in place but the big problem I think is that we are still struggling to make this a part of our core functions how do you ensure that this awareness of sustainability or whatever we are talking about in respect of helping the environment or ensuring that we have a better environment how do you make it part of your core functions I think that's where corporates struggle how do you means what would be your suggestion as to how we can get that done what I say is very unpopular the more unpopular the better so please I already told you I am not trying to win elections so what's my problem business is set up for certain purpose their business is just to run that business for that purpose it is not their business to start a school it is not their business to start a hospital it's not their business to save environment I don't think so it is in the policy that it has to be done that how businesses are done in this country without causing too much damage that should be returned to the policy the law book I think they will follow it if they don't follow it there will be a penalty but it is not in the law and you say why are you not building a hospital India needs hospitals India needs schools why don't you build schools schools hospitals must be done into another kind of business we are expecting somebody else to do when I spoke even against the 2% corporate social responsibility I say when I start the business you tell me 30% is tax then if I start making money you say you must pay 2% more because you have another responsibility if I make more money you will make another 2% more stop doing this because this is not good for the nation's business once you set the conditions don't change the goalpost no matter what you change the policy in such a way that it is not about taxation it is about making a more creative business the very way we structure the business has to be this is the question you are asking but I am saying that is not in the hands of the business individual business people may do it but tomorrow if the conditions in their business get a little harsh they will roll it back hello yes you need to do that to survive you just that point of time survival is the main thing in the business there are various challenges of their own every business every institution has their own challenges people who are outside will not understand this those who are running the stuff they know what all challenges they have so don't tell them to do all the service on the planet let them run their damn business well and that is the service as long as they are paying the taxes don't ask them anything more I am saying those other things must happen in the policy and if you want to raise taxes it must be however once in ten or fifteen or twenty years when there is substantial time gap then you with consensus you raise the tax if you wish but I feel government will make much more money if it lowers the taxes then raises the taxes really I am sure you know a lot of the people over here should have actually clapped for that they probably aren't because they don't know who is listening I don't know no it doesn't matter who is listening it is a very important nation if people don't express then all the time see why are we approaching the nation like this well there may be some past experiences rest is all just fear syndrome oh they will do this they will do that it's not true here and there such things have happened I am not saying it's not happened but rest is all just fear mongering going on oh they are going to do this they are going to do that nothing like that straight forward if you say ten percent this is how much I pay because this is the kind of business I will do if you make it five percent I will you know multiply ten times over because I am competitive in the rest of the world and you will get this much money rather than that much money I don't see why government will not come to its senses it will sure they have in fact reduced taxes that's a fact so let's see I am saying in a country like India we have not done too badly in spite of the reductions no in a country like India with the level of disparity we have we cannot eliminate taxes we cannot go in that direction not yet at least that is accepted but I am saying business is an agile process bureaucracy is a sedate process all right if it has to be agile people in the policy also must be dynamic enough all the time so right now agriculture if you want to see it as a business we need to do some things quickly which has serious ecological concerns every business no matter what kind of business you are running it doesn't matter whether you are digging coal or you are running electronic stuff it has an ecological impact more or less is a question mark that's all everybody as we are breathing we have an ecological impact on everything around us so every one of us are partners in this destruction the only way around is every one of us become partners in the solution there is simply no other way if we have to become partners in this solution this particular aspect why I am focusing on agricultural soil because everybody is fashionable to talk about rainforest because they have never seen one most people with rainforest you don't have to do anything if you stay out of it it's fine it doesn't need your management it doesn't need environmentalist to go there and manage a rainforest it has managed itself for a million years it will manage itself for another million years without our help if you stay out it's fine but agricultural soil is that piece of geography where every day human hand is tending to it but this is in a horrific condition where not a single nation has the minimum organic content as an average so if you can't fix that place where every day men and women are working upon it you talking about rainforest and oceans is just a joke and it's just for conversational material it is not looking for a solution Sadhguru, you know the numbers that you gave regarding the organic content in the soil obviously it's the poorer nations that have far less organic content from the numbers that you said you know just looking at it from the other side don't you think it's really unfair that you know these developed nations which actually are far greater users per capita of resources and who have actually exploited a lot of the resources in order to get to that developed status without any thought of the environment at that point of time because the awareness wasn't there that you know they are actually at a far better position than those nations which need to develop but which currently are most impacted so you know in a way don't you think that this is very unfair and that we need to do something about that as well because otherwise you know this problem about you know while we are talking about this Come on you've been heading one of the biggest banks in the country and now you're part of sales force do you expect the world to be fair? we expected to be fair but shouldn't we strive for it to be fair so life is not fair I agree with you not only the world life is not fair life is fair world is not fair but the thing is you know but the burden of now ensuring sustainability or ensuring that our ecosystem is better the bigger burden is falling on the poorer nations now how is it that we can make the more developed world understand that at the end of the day it is one world so something impacts us will impact them as well it has to and they are realizing that when you know because of the Ukraine fight they are not getting the wheat so they are realizing that but having said that I still don't think you know they have internalized this or they really know they need not internalize it because they have solutions for that say Ukraine war right now 30% of the wheat is coming either from Russia or from Ukraine one country is being bombed another is banned whichever way both have stopped wheat so I think bread prices in some of the European nations have gone up to 70% escalation they will cry a little bit and eat still but about six nations six to seven nations are going into serious famine this year already two nations are in famine condition it's expected in the next four to six months 350,000 children below six years of age will die in these countries because everybody is focused on looking at Ukraine and the whole narrative is on Ukraine who is going to care about these nations so that's not happening last year the world food program spent nine billion dollars distributing food this year they want 15 billion dollars next year that is 2023 they want 22 billion dollars how long will you go on distributing food like this food must grow where people are otherwise it's not sustainable over a period of time this is something that we've always known there's nothing new about it but this is happening but about they will also realize no, no you must understand when there are food shortages when real food shortages happen in the world whoever has the biggest guns will get the food those who don't have will not have food it's as simple as that so it is a very unfair world as you were saying there is no doubt about it but coming back you know to your trip we have to learn to live in that right I suppose I don't think there is a way out but probably you know what you were saying about ensuring that we ourselves do the best we can for ourselves that is probably the way out means there is really no way out other than helping your own self when we are talking about agriculture there is a certain power in this for example India we have a latitudinal spread from Kanyakumari to Himalayas we have a latitudinal spread that we can literally grow just about anything you want anything that grows anywhere in the world we can grow from Kanyakumari to Himalayas if you choose the right place to grow and the right kind of inputs so when we have such a thing and another thing we have which very few nations have is or no nation has actually is nearly sixty percent of the population know how to do farming when I say know how to do farming this is something that educated and urban populations have ignored is see even you may be an MBA from the best university I will give you ten acres of land for Thailand you grow me five different types of crops and show me you will fail utterly you may be an MSc in agriculture you still can't grow believe me because farmer has such an intrinsic knowledge which unfortunately we are not valuing because there is no degree to it there is no PhD to it but he knows things that others don't know he knows intrinsically just by living there so when we have nearly sixty percent of population still informing we will have to reduce it a little bit but still that knowledge is there and we have a latitudinal spread like this we can grow things in that quality and quantity if we raise the organic content in our lands as it used to be at one time the whole world will want to eat our food because one thing that most people may not be unaware of is see a handful of soil in a rich land has anywhere between six to eight billion organisms especially in the Deccan Plateau and south south of Deccan Plateau the soil has the number of species present is the highest in the world we don't know for what reason there is no scientific reason as to why this is so a handful of soil can have fifty to seventy-five thousand species present in one handful of soil so this is a soil which will respond very, very quickly and it can grow food of that quality which if the whole world will want to eat we have that power we have people in agriculture we have the land we can easily do this it takes a determined effort it doesn't take any rocket science to do this we know how to do it it doesn't take enormous financial outlay to do this all it takes is face in the right direction and a resolute action not deviating here and there just staying on why I am insisting on this is after Rally for Rivers policy handbook that we wrote became the official you know recommended policy for all the twenty-eight states only six states began to act upon it others of course they were waiting for a disaster and disaster came in the wrong form it came in the form of the virus or the pandemic because the pandemic came all the six states who were doing this also suspended whatever they were doing because they have other things to do now so like this we get diverted from basic things because soil is not just one more problem it is an existential thing it is of existential significance once the nation loses its soil which we are on the verge of if you don't understand what I am saying next time you fly from Delhi to Chennai every five minutes look out and see the whole country looks like a brown desert except for western gods and the northeastern part of the nation the whole country is a brown desert there is not a single cover crop anywhere during summer just fifty years ago every farmer used to have cover crops on the land now there is no cover crop if you plough the land and leave it open these days the machines are ploughing twelve to fifteen inches deep if you plough it and leave it open this is murder of the soil the simple thing is you are all in industry I don't know what all types of industries we have to rapidly bring in robotics into agriculture because right now we are using massive machines we just rip off everything if you leave robotic machines they will do action in a specific way doctoring the soil the way it needs to be done only if we do this we can keep the soil the way we want and still feed not only one point three billion people we can feed another two to three billion people on the planet we have that much soil strength and that much agricultural knowledge because we have over twelve thousand years of agricultural history in southern India but twelve thousand years we managed our soil in a fertile condition but in last forty five years we have kind of turning it into a desert so lot of things to think about so in order to change that particular stream of thought let's go to your trip you know I am sure we are going to get a fantastic book out of it we look forward to it but just as a preview of that you know could you share with us three things during the trip that surprised you three things that disappointed you and three things that elated you so if you could what's your next profession you being a journalist or something not at all don't tell me you are going to run economic times after this not at all I am sure they are never going to call me again if you say that this is the last time I don't know how to say three things three things one thing you can choose something that surprised you something that disappointed you and something that you really felt elated about I stay always elated I know that I am always elated no matter what's happening around me elated plus I should say maybe so there have been challenges in terms of weather well two wheels and snow doesn't go well together it could become very dangerous on the road more than anything the most dangerous thing has been the winds sometimes winds were gusting around sixty five knots so literally my front wheel was just lifting up like it's a balloon up like that so there were many dangerous moments and also in Arabia there were continuous dust storms blowing at maybe thirty knots like that I was riding a much lighter motorcycle in Arabia because there was a little off-roading to do all that and because you know I didn't the temperatures on the road were over fifty four degrees centigrade literally my bones were melting out and all the teams were exhausted they all falling apart because of this they're just keeping on because I'm keeping on there were there were many many moments which are super dangerous but I did this because as I said I've been speaking for thirty years and people have been sleeping on it I don't hold any position of authority I'm a minister I'm not even a CEO or anything the only thing I have is the love and goodwill of people so I thought I will play with that a little bit I just pulling at their heart strings putting myself to risk and it's worked that now the social media metric leaving the WhatsApp without the WhatsApp it is now right now reading at two point eight billion people have spoken about soil since March 21 three point six billion is what we want with all of you I think we can get there fantastic if that is not cause for relation I don't know what is so the last that was a plan so that was not done so so you know before I think we can open it to the rest of the audience they may have something to ask one last question I'd ask you and this is something that all Indians want to hear because do you really think that you know the coming century will be India's century do you really believe that you know the next decade or two decades that we have in order to take advantage of the demographic dividend of getting the youngsters to be really involved in all of this that that will come about and if you don't think that that could happen what could be an action plan of action for us to get there see Indians have this problem they always want a prediction it's an Indian problem no we must stop going for predictions and start evolving plans that we can execute those who are incapable of making a plan and executing it always look for predictions they're looking for the positions of the star not knowing most of the stars that you're looking at don't even exist they're gone long time ago so this prediction business we must leave is this going to be our century well there are certain potentials in the country if we can harness that yes as you already mentioned one is the demographic dividend I think we are overly exaggerating this in my opinion because you are looking at the numbers only in the newspapers that this is the number of youth that we have but you have not gone around the country and seen the condition of the youth both physically mentally in terms of education and other capabilities where they are you can easily discount 50% of being able to do anything worthwhile really I'm not being pessimistic but even with the 50% if we educate if we haven't educated inspired and focused population people we will be the greatest miracle on the planet definitely if we if we do that if we leave them uneducated unfocused uninspired or we will be the greatest disaster on the planet so which one will we do is in our hands this is not subject to predictions this is subject to our commitment our conviction of how far we will go each one of us and what are the actions we are willing to do what are the comfort zones we are willing to cross and do what we have to do well as a generation of people when there is a possibility I think we should push for the full possibility and for all this I'm not just being adamant about this for all this one thing is there must be food security in the country if three days in this Mumbai city I want you to just visualize for three days if forty percent of the people have not had anything to eat do you believe you will go to your work hello the civilization will collapse just like that in three days time it might have taken thousand years to build it but in three days it will collapse once the food shortages so we should never go in that direction this is not new to us just two generations ago we had severe famines in this country 1942 famine took 3.2 million people but we have such a short memory for sixty, seventy years we ate well and we completely forgotten we think everything is fine we are dreaming how to dominate the twenty-first century we must ensure the food security of the population this is most important without that one thing none of our plans will succeed yeah so we have I think about fifteen minutes or so so if there are any questions yeah probably you know this mic yeah if you have a mic please my namaskar I wanted to know what we can do as corporates in the last years we have put up two forests one in Vikroli, Mumbai of 25 acres with 40 feet trees maybe in lakhs numbers and we took another one near Khandala which we have built also a forest and now we have taken 50 acres of land in Ali Park to make a forest we are trying to do that my question is when you say save the soil from the corporates point of view what is your recommend specifically to the corporates we are doing this do you suggest anything particular about it or do you suggest something else that you think we as corporates can do can I speak sir honestly can I frankly tell you what I please see this 25 acres of forest or 50 acres of forest or even if you make 200 acres of forest around Mumbai it will definitely impact the quality of life for urban population definitely you need to do that that's very important but it will not do any ecological service to the world we are always misunderstanding our civic responsibility as ecological now plastic bags are floating around in Mumbai this is not an ecological problem this is a civic issue this is a question of social irresponsibility with a little bit of law and strict enforcement this will get fixed in no time but we are trying to project that as an ecological issue it is an ecological issue at another level plastics that's different but these are all civic issues there is not enough green cover in the city in the urban area this is a civic issue if you want to live in a reasonably pleasant atmosphere every road should be lined with trees this is something all of us understand but we have not done even now it can be done in spite of all the development it can be done however this public transport has to increase the number of vehicles have to come down on the road all these things have to happen it's all coordinated effort for Mumbai development you can do those things if you want I'll sit with you one day for that how to do this urban thing because right now we have made these cities these are all old cities did not happen in a planned way in the morning you see are also in the evening traffic is busy on both sides of the road what does this mean people who live there work here people who live here work there what is the point of this we just doing it all wrong most people need not get into your car every day we can build a city like that oh can we do it now yes even now it can be done maybe not for everybody if you do it for fifty percent of the population your requirement of the road and how much space you need for walking how much space for trees dramatically it can be done you are in the business building business I will sit with you and talk about plans that I have I have proposed this to Karnataka government now to the UP government they are all looking at it but nobody acts upon it there are a variety of things but I feel corporates can act upon it businesses can do this I have proposed a proposal called one building city I insist on calling it a city a single building say you move out if you move probably fifty kilometers the land price could be ten percent of what it is here am I correct at least okay you go little further where it's ten percent if you have fifty acres you build one acre anyway you have two FSI you can bring hundred floors if you want anywhere between fifty to hundred floors remaining forty nine acres you turn it into forest because you like that and people need it it's very important residences, offices a small school theater little shopping everything is right there for six days in a week you don't have to step out of your building if you step out you are in a forest if you want to use it for little bit of organic farming that you are advising the farmers ten, fifteen acres you can do that kind of farming instead of simply sitting in the car and driving for two hours three hours a day you can do something else most important thing is today our cities are like this especially in India Mumbai, Bangalore, anywhere you see children step out of their home they are straight on the street this situation of a child cannot freely run can't climb a tree can't fall where he wants can't lie down where he feels like this you will pay the price in another fifteen to twenty years the amount of psychologically disturbed people will rise in a significant way because up to twelve years of age if you have not done those things it will act we will pay back it will happen to us so it's very important if a child steps out there's a open space where he can run and do whatever the hell he wants if he breaks his bone falling off a tree it is okay if he does he broke nothing because he is afraid of stepping on the street that is not a good way for a child to live so we will have serious psychological issues in cities simply because children have not known what it means to be care free what it means to labor their heart in such a way that you almost felt like dying this needs to happen otherwise neither physiologically nor psychologically will you be healthy nor will you have any strength of life right now you see people are asking me during the pandemic Swadguru were you clustered in the ashram? No I was traveling all over the world only thing is I switched to the motorcycle because they said keep social distance so it's a simple way to keep social distance if you ride fast enough nobody is with you so I'm saying but till now I'm not saying I'm some kind of a super human being I'm saying this is possible for every human being I have not viruses ignored me somehow people whatever you tell them they'll come and fall all over me they will speak straight in my face they will breathe over me all this but virus is not interested in me for some reason okay I'm saying anyway the scientists are telling you even if you allow the pandemic to run free it will kill only twenty percent of the population not that we can allow twenty percent of the population to die that's not the point I'm saying why isn't the other eighty percent being affected shouldn't the hundred percent of population become like that hello should we not do that for this you need strength of life that comes only by your connection with nature being with various things because life on this planet is not happening exclusively it's a phenomena life on this planet does not mean your social life life on this planet means microbial life because they outnumber you by a trillion times and they are the foundation of life without us they can exist without them we cannot exist for a moment thank you yeah maybe yes sir this is more of a thought than I would like to hear your thoughts on this you said something very pertinent you said there's no robotics in agriculture well you know data sets exist today there's data from satellite information satellites are sending this data which is really free you go to ISRO website you'll see all of this data about agriculture about soil content the nutrients in the soil everything is available for free I don't think there is a profit incentive for people to take this up and convert this into something that's robotics and AI driven or a profit driven or a profit issue or an incentive issue in this case see if the policies are not favourable you cannot make any profit it's as simple as that making profit becomes impossible if the policy is not in favour of that so policies need to think much larger and more intricately than ever before because the challenges are very different we would have faced a hundred years ago above all they're just the population we have four percent of the world's land and seventeen point six percent of the world's population that's not easy to manage if you want this to be a successful country policy has to be super intricate yes this is the lady there maybe so we have the knowledge and we have the wisdom and you have spread that message all across the world despite that things are not happening because maybe of misgovernance or economics we are living in an economic world if it's profitable as we said people would be you know manufacturing soil also so like water on the table so how do we get the economics involved so that because love fresh air and sunlight is free but that somehow we just you know destroy it thank you can I tell you a story sir this happened in twenty sixty a few scientists sought appointment with God they got it they went there and they told him hey old man you done pretty well with creation but everything that you can do we can also do today so each time you retire are people telling you this no so God said is that so what is it that you can do so they dug up a little bit of soil made a vague image of a human child and did certain things and the child came alive God said that's very impressive but first get your own soil that I want to tell you this there is no replacement for soil not on this planet not in the known universe there is no replacement for soil to make one inch of top soil it takes six hundred to eight hundred years if there was no foot with a human foot print with the human foot print at the present level of human foot print it will take thirteen thousand years to make one inch of soil so don't ever think of manufacturing soil that's never ever going to happen because it's life it's a fundamental life apart from that are the policies in the way right now I'm saying the same thing I'm sorry I'm repeating myself we're addressing agricultural soil because that involves our nourishment our economics our survival many things forest are there we must leave forest alone we've come to a point the meager amount of forest that we have first thing is we must get rid of this term forest produce from our vocabulary this is what we have done in the southern India with some policy changes and everything it's taken years to get these things done today most farmers are growing trees along with their crops which has made it extremely profitable for them their incomes have gone up significantly every twelve years even they make a partial clearing of this timber that's grown they're getting as much money as they would get if they sold their land so every twelve years they can sell the land and keep the land if you don't make farming that lucrative at least if you don't make it in such a way a farmer will earn as much as a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or whatever else is driving people into the urban urban centers if the farmer doesn't earn the same in another twenty five to thirty years you will have no farmers left we've done some kind of a basic survey what we see is not even two percent of the farmers want their children to become farmers in another twenty five years where is the food security for this country you have to make farm very very lucrative super lucrative you have to make it otherwise nobody will stay there one simple way of doing it is that forest what you're calling as forest produce you can start growing on your land if you do not know this sandalwood for example there's a lot of demand for it I'm just taking one precious species because we were busy tackling Veerappan Veerappan was freely cutting whatever sandalwood he wants in the forest and they exporting it wherever he wants because of him we made a policy nobody can grow sandalwood in their land you cannot grow so we are importing sandalwood from Australia how is that I'm saying right now 1.25 lakh crores worth of timber we are importing in our country why can't our farmers grow it everything that you call as forest produce can be grown on the farm land isn't it right now everybody is stuck with perishable items they are just growing either grain or vegetable or fruit and they don't have the power of scale in any way they are at the mercy of the marketplace if they had multiple crops variety of things if they had trees once in five years if they cut he would have enough money to do his life the way he wants and once there are trees on the land he will not leave it and go to the city it is expected by 2032 220 million people in India will migrate to urban centers I think Mumbai share should be at least 30 to 40 million out of this all the best you think you can build infrastructure for another 40 million people in ten years time it will be a mess already it's quite a mess a few people have managed to carve out a niche of well-being rest are in quite a mess isn't it today I was at Daravi well they are trying to make it spirited life out there but that's not the way human being should be living living conditions that's not how it should be but that is how it will become entire cities will become like that when there is an influx of population from somewhere where it's not an organic growth of population when there's an influx like this nobody can build infrastructure for that you have just one more question here please Prasunia Namaskar you are introducing yourself Prasunia first of all seeing you after what you described your journey has been you don't look absolutely fresh and out of such a long travel it doesn't show at all so congratulations and compliments on that first of all I know your belief in the native wisdom and you talked about leaving it to the farmers and their wisdom and benefiting from it it seems sustainability is an afterthought when you say development now we have started saying sustainable development development which was supposed to be sustainable to begin with in a native wisdom and I have often spoken with you on that so where do you think there is a need of intervention shouldn't it be left to the farmers a native wisdom to be protecting a land and soil which will organically have if you left alone the intervention of the modern science and policies be there and could you throw some light on that please see we have passed the time where individual wisdom could deal with the problem we have come to a place where on an average according to UNFAO on an average 27000 species yes you heard it right 27000 species are going extinct per year it is a slide it's going down like this if you allow this to continue probably somewhere nobody knows exactly somewhere between 25 to 40 years from now what is sliding right now will go into a tumble once it goes into a tumble there is really nothing we can do we are talking about the life infrastructure which is microbial collapsing if that collapses we must understand 60% of our body is microbial life and that will also collapse a serious collapse of life could happen will it happen to everybody will it happen all over the world these debates are going on but is it even worth debating we are heading towards a disaster should we think okay will you go to first or I go first is this the debate it's a silly debate to get into so are we heading in that direction definitely we are heading times and calculations may be slightly off but are we going there definitely we are going there what will be the outcome of this it is predicted by 2035 there will be dozens of civil wars in the world this is what the world food program says by 2045 we will have 40% less food than what we need because our populations will be 22 billion people and we will be producing 40% less which means whole world order will go into chaos and 2045 is not too far away it's not another century or another millennia no it's right here many of you may live long enough to see 2045 so can we leave this to individual wisdom whether native or otherwise no you cannot we definitely need a policy the policy is incentive how one revives is left to them we produce these handbooks where technically what are all the things you can do there are hundred different ways of fixing it there is not one way each farmer can do it in his own way or knowledge can be disseminated how many ways you can do it traditional wisdom is there but traditional wisdom is largely gone for one to two generations why I'm saying this is we must understand when 1947 we became an independent nation we were in the fear of famine openly some of the British politicians at that time predicted you just watch this country it will go into chaos it will go into famines they will kill themselves this is the end of India because we know what kind of confusion damn country is I'm paraphrasing but they have spoken something as harsh or harsher than what I'm saying they openly said it because they thought this country cannot go anywhere they are going to fight among each other and they will go into famines and they will die in a horrible way but we have disproved that we've turned this around we created what is called as green revolution what green revolution was born from the fear of famines so these are emergency steps that we took it was a bridge to cross that problem if you get on to your bridge you're all very proud of your ceiling kai I believe only one bridge in Mumbai what you must be building hundred bridges so if you get on to your bridge somewhere you have to get down if you stay on the bridge for too long that means you're on a bridge to nowhere this is our position we climbed a bridge did it help? definitely many of us are alive today because of green revolution a generation of people have eaten well because of green revolution but in the process we also damaged our soil seriously this is not only because of green revolution many other policy mistakes were made I don't want to get into those policies or the politics behind that leave that we have done what we have done but can we correct it? we can as a generation today we have this great challenge in front of us at the same time we have this tremendous privilege that we can be that generation which turn back from the brink of a disaster or we can be that generation which slept through and fell into the disaster I'm saying this because there is a habit of walking into disasters and then grieving over it this is unfortunate habit with humanity we keep walking into the same things and again and again crying about the same thing and then we will of course philosophers will come they say this is your karma this god's will is like this this happened that happened explanations for silly things or stupid things we have done to ourselves alright? for example world war one happened everybody said never again nations were formed within twenty two years or twenty years time once again world war two happened more terrible than the first one as if it's a natural progression since then so many wars, so many nations wiped out, so many millions of people killed now we are talking about number three as if it's a natural progression when we do one, two we must do three hello as our capabilities and competence in what we can do enhances if we are not conscious about what we are doing our intelligence becomes destructive right now this is a case of human intelligence turning against us intelligence is a solution it's the only solution but unfortunately that has become the biggest problem because if all of us had the brain of an earthworm as lot of spiritual teachers are saying the only goal of your life is to achieve peace of mind you would be definitely peaceful if you had the brain of an earthworm and you would also be eco-friendly so right now the problem is your intelligence intelligence is a problem because we are addressing something so potent in an unconscious and compulsive way that is a problem so this is why save soil moment is under the banner of conscious planet it's not under Isha foundation so with that I think we will end today's session Sadhguru we take to heart your save the soil save our soil movement we also realize that we are the generation that needs to you know help the world get off that bridge I think that is a very important message that it is something that we all must do and it is our responsibility to do it In a democratic nation we must understand as our vote is valuable our voice is equally valuable I want I request all of you to use your influence your resources whatever you can to keep the conversation the soil conversation up this is not about me this is about soil you must keep it up till proper policies are made right now every state that I have passed through have absolutely promised that they will do it but we must understand governments are not elected to do fantastic things governments are elected to just fulfill people's mandate where is the mandate you have never asked for a long term anything in the country you ask for two percent tax benefit you want reduction in petrol prices you want this this this benefit you are getting those things it is time responsible citizens ask for longer term well-being of our nation future well-being of our children we must ask for that it is time to do that please use your influence resource to keep this conversation up as I said about 2.7 2.8 billion people have spoken about it we want at least four billion people to speak about it and keep it up for some time till policies happen globally because our state borders our national borders mean nothing for soil and soil ecology these are our problems that we think planet is a cake that we can cut it into pieces and take my piece and throw it somewhere you can't go away anywhere we come from the soil we thrive of the soil when we die we go back to the soil the question is only will we realize this now or only when we are buried that's the only question thank you very much Thank you Satru Nandu for engaging in insightful conversation ladies and gentlemen thank you for being a wonderful audience please join us for appetizers and drinks dinner will be served in the Malabar in the room across the hall