 It's like stopped, so I'm not sure, but I see that we're now on live on YouTube. So Hey Joe, thank you. You're welcome. Interestingly, I can't comment on streams like no streams the no js1 the open js1 I've tweeted at Google and YouTube and I can't Have you behaved badly have been putting the quiet box? Oh, you know what quiet box But I just I just tried it and it worked. So My penalty time is over. I guess Well, cool Anyway, good job Joe Joe Yeah, eventually Um, all right, so welcome to our standards working group meeting We did not have a meeting two weeks ago because we were in conflict with the Working meeting of the cpc and also we had some we've been gathering a lot of data from our projects and That extra two weeks gave us more time to talk with more people. So We'll be reporting on that today. But before we get started Um, let me ask if we have any announcements Uh to share Any upcoming tc 39 meetings for example during the first week of March There will in fact be one Pressions of you Um, I don't remember the exact dates though. Is there anything people should be going to I guess you could pop the link to the agenda and Yeah, um, I'll put the agenda link in there. But either march 9th and 10th. Um, we're doing this sort of weird alternative meeting schedule starting this year. So there's more meetings, but some of them are shorter Um, so two days instead of four Um, as far as I mean the agenda tends to like the agenda deadline is in five days. And so It tend things tend to cram up last minute on it. So it's probably best to take another look at it six days from now um the There's like a few needs consensus prs and stuff, but the main Stuff that's interesting One of them is uh an alias someone matias wants to add promise dot any settled as an alias for promise dot race So there's going to be some discussion about that and then some of the bigger things is there's an update about top level of weight And it's progressed to stage four And then a really big one is temporal. Um, it's up there for stage three It's got a 45 minute time box which seems very ambitious. Um But it's a very large proposal. So if you have thoughts feel free to review. Um And then there's also a resizable array buffer for stage three But that I expect that unless you're doing arcane things with typed arrays and array buffers You won't pay attention to that And there's currently a thing up for stage two and for stage one And there's a longer discussion about the pipeline operator and things like that. So I hope anyone has opinions Well, thank you so much Jordan. I hope it is a um productive and enjoyable two days of Two days of tc 39 meetings, which is a weird thing to say two days Um, cool uh, let's see Uh, similarly the, uh, debbie three c has I don't think they've announced the dates for like their their spring AC meetings, but um the CEO Jeff Jaffe has been doing these interesting community like office hours calls. Um, and so if you were interested in um meeting up with folks different members and also the the Management team at the w3c. They're doing these cool office hours And let us know we can let you know when the next one Is happening Let's see go ahead brian There will be a web components face-to-face sometime in april as well if anybody's interested in it Is that a real face-to-face or like a No, okay Those are fictional. Yeah A face not to face but actually socially distanced and mediated through a screen face Yes screen to screen Okay, cool Cool web components debbie three c javascript On that kind of line the foundation is doing a like a AMA panel for Like javascript trends. We've invited a couple of different Folks from the community to follow up on this thing we've been doing the last couple years Where we get folks talking about sort of like future trends and sort of things they're imagining For 2021 it's always an interesting conversation So Welcome your your attendance or your questions or your participation on that panel here in a week I think it's a week from tomorrow For friday, I don't remember it's it's next week and it's on the public calendar. So I will I'll refresh that uh, and then I would put out a last call for the open jasworld cfps, but that was actually yesterday Blanc Blanc So I hope everyone got their talks in on time Even at like 1201 Which is maybe what we did last night joe To get your your conference and proposed talk proposals in but there's still time to participate if you're interested in helping select talks so Uh, if you want to get involved with the programming Please please Raise your hand. We'd love to have you without help us about evaluate those proposals um Anything else? Big ticket. I guess friday is a board meeting um And we usually do have a public version of the board meeting that's on the public calendar as well I'm missing anything robin that's sort of like super timely I think you got it. Okay, cool All right, um Cool, there's always something is the you know tldr. It's always something All right, um, I think we have Uh, just a few items on the agenda, but they will likely merit lots of interesting discussion today. Maybe we can start with and the Shorter item that brian reminded me to add to our our chat which is changing the w3c and ac representative And that person has been brian cardell for us for for some time brian. Yeah And yeah, it's two two years. I think yeah, thank you for your service Uh, but brian is also the ac rep for agilia. Um, his new company and is interested in Spreading the love so to speak And so we're there's been a couple of folks that have been Sort of Watching ac chatter and watching different things coming out of the w3c like mike champion who's um Joined us and then myself and um think a handful of others so, uh We He'd like to to pass pass the the role on brian. Do you want to sort of? Summarize our our chatter about it um, well Being an ac rep for a lot of companies is um mostly like ceremonial there's very few that are like actively engaged and it just so happens that Open j s has a bunch of people who are engaged and When you attend Meetings to you represent if you vote you represent You you have access to a bunch of other sort of forums because you're the ac rep and So we reached out to w3c about whether Um Like we could have sort of a a joint ac rep group uh where Uh, we could make sure that the small group of very engaged people are getting You know the the news and updates and able to discuss collaboratively and That it should probably somebody else So they advised us that we can Like create and sign up a mailing list, but it it seems that that would have to be like a person of somebody Uh that officially spoke for the mailing list Um, so we suggested that should probably be jory and we have a couple of things to work out there, but does that Summarize it well so the the idea is basically um This you know small group of people would get all the ac updates and could help sort of spread the The discussion and and the work out a little bit But that in terms of having a representative it would be jory jory did I summarize that okay or Yeah, yeah, so just the tldr is we we thought we could maybe do a team team thing And just spread that info out amongst the group, but when it comes to being able to They they want to be able to identify a single person who can post um on behalf of Um the org That just sort of is the way their model is set up um, and so that has to be And they you know that has to and the person has to be able to email from The list which our list doesn't allow us to do so I for example can't email from standards at open jsf.org so uh We chattered about it. Um with brian being The agalia representative mic champion being a um Sort of an emeritus member of the ac um, which they grant to advisory board members who've Served long and honorably um, they mic and We drew straws and I got the shorter long one depending on which Well, I think the key thing there is like I said you you you gain access to other forums as well So if there's an ac meeting Like mic can already attend an ac meeting and I can already attend an ac meeting and like historically jory has been ac for like boku in the past But currently she can't attend an ac meeting. I think so That sort of works out well for everybody that everybody can have full participation The other thing we could do um is have like a nomination period, you know where we say we're looking for um nominees to serve as the open j s foundations rep um, which You know, we we we could absolutely Do that as well um, but just interested in how this group thinks we ought to proceed with this particular um Appointment because it it's one that for just historical purposes hasn't been And super formally handled when when the j s foundation Had a rep it was more of like a I think it really literally was who drew who drew the shortest straw Because there's a lot of email um, that's I think it's an important role. I'm glad that um, it still will be a team effort Um, we're also paid up with our dues. I think that's what we notice as well when mic champion joined is that we had not Paid our dues when it transferred from j s to open j s. So we're all up to date um, and I think when I look at like with unicode and I can't remember what else didn't you all self nominate Or when miles self nominated for osi. I think is how that maybe worked I think that's right. Yeah, and then um Emily we kind of did that too for unicode as well, but it was sort of like a Of course, it's Emily For for unicode. I mean to be clear. We're not paying anything because we are a was it a It's an affiliate Yes Yeah, and I'm not our generic rep for all of unicode. Uh, I'm specifically only for the message for what working group uh Grat name blocking on me Is the one we ended up picking for our generic unicode rep? Uh Let me dig it out from somewhere. It's like don't wait, Tony Okay, um, I think it's fine that we do nominations And both seems fine so we could just you know, um, we could do a open a nomination and then um Assuming say that keep that open for A week because it's a fairly small group of people that Um, but that would give us enough time to inform the cpc um, and then Do a Assuming that there's if there's no other nominees beyond myself then No need for a vote, but if there are then and do a do a vote among our group here Sound good sounds good Uh, ben michael, I think for you. Oh, yes Yes Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, and he was working on a really epic blog post. Thank you Emily and that is a great reminder to go check on that because he I've read the draft. It's really it was really good We uh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you You may record this action really quick action open nominations And then also action Paul, what's been about blog posts? awesome All right, moving to our next um agenda item, which is listed is the 2020 strategic 2021 excuse me strategic planning and goal setting and issue What we have today Is an update on some of the conversations that robin and myself and also, uh, michael dawson and have been having with different projects around Getting their input and their, um preferences for those six Possibilities and robin, um And I made a deck mostly robin made the deck it's because it's pretty um And let me just open it up so that we have this um easier to talk about but as I get that um We showed this deck with uh And kind of talked through sort of the setup Um, can I find the deck? There we go um the setup of like, you know Just context and that kind of thing um, and then Got them to sort of give us questions and feedback on which of the approaches they liked the best So let me share My screen With uh There's my keynote share So y'all should see my ah this keynote thing See pretty deck that robin made and We walked folks through like who we are um Setting up a little bit of like, you know, what is the work and that sort of thing and then we jumped right into Those six ideas that we summarized in our notes and also in that hack md brainstorming doc um, so just to recap everyone because y'all have probably not been thinking about this as much um in the last couple weeks um with the six ideas were um focused on number one um like filling the filling the cracks creating more of a space for standardization activities to arise by um filling gaps between different and Specs and work streams that are happening um elsewhere So this is where like for example, brian's other issue on our repo around the The polyfills would arise um idea number two Becoming a really strong and and safe form for discussing proposal needs so leaning into the um Just feedback process and helping shape and get some community pre-consensus and that sort of stuff idea number three was Really keying off of some comments that Jordan had made around just sort of doing audit and discovery and research Finding those common things that we're all doing. We're all relying on and finding opportunities for um improvement in those spaces uh idea number four was focusing On the projects themselves specifically where a project may identify that it has some standardization activities goals and creating process and mentorship and support Perhaps through the joint development foundation, which we heard from a few weeks ago um so that they can Move those things forward and then we help them celebrate and surface those those wins um and then number five was uh that we create a forum to help People on board and learn about standard standardization activities Perhaps curating um great content many of much of which already exists on the web and we've got lots of great examples But none of it is is super well surfaced in one spot We could do that. We could really help Perhaps create more Diverse and inclusive environments and working groups because we were doing that mentorship and support there And then last but not least the no jerks plan Which is where we would perhaps invest our time and energy in not just, you know, supporting people who want to work on standards but also to Help them like with their DEI activities internally so office hours and you know Feedback and training and that kind of stuff. So those were our six things and obviously in sharing those with the Project we went into further depth and we took questions along the way that I hope that that quick characterization You know accurately reflects y'all's memory as well about what we did and why So, uh, all right. So that's what we shared And then we got some feedback about What was uh, what was good what they what people liked Let me go pull that up real quick and I'll share With all so we still have more people to talk to so the thing I want to say There we go We've talked to dojo amp web web pack We've talked to a couple of different groups in amp We're planning to talk to node Probably that will end up happening in chunks because not everybody can be at a single time um, we still need to Get input from jQuery, which we will probably do this coming or next friday And Who else am I missing? Web driver and web Hint are we're also ones that we wanted to talk to this go around So electron. Oh electron. That's right, and I'm missing their tallies So I need to go get those Thank you. Yes um, so Basically, this was like a Here's here's the thing and here's the here's the um, here's the options in here here What what do you think and by the end of it most folks gave some kind of like my gut take is that I like Option one and five for example, and so we've just sort of like recorded that um And as you can see there's a lot of sympathy for options five and six sort of around that you know kind community helpful, you know, um inclusive community work But also a lot of folks liking Option number two Which is the discussion and the input on proposals and that community preconsensus um, so it's still early to say that we have clear like a clear preference Um, but this is sort of where it's trending so far based on who we've talked to Um We're also getting some interesting notes and you know, robin if you want to speak to some of the comments that we've gotten so far From folks. Yeah, I think it's interesting on on number two I'm hearing a pattern like it actually is sort of happening on some level But it's only happening because somebody knows somebody who knows somebody So it's kind of like who you know, it's not um, and it's always last minute so Bringing being more programmatic about it and transparent. I think will help um We had one comment. I thought was interesting saying hey our is the standards group. Are you working On just momentum or do you really want to spin something up and get something going? I think jewelry you and I talked after and probably both perhaps. Yeah so Those were sort of my big takeaways from a consistency across our conversations But yeah, I think definitely to the um On number five, I think a lot of demand there's they may have people in their community It may not be the people we spoke to but just sort of getting that pipeline And succession planning of the projects for people who are interested. I think is important One of the comments also that we got was that number six really felt like something we should be doing is sort of like a sub routine, you know, um that that in getting involved in these groups that That six was something that we could do just by Virtue of the fact that you know, we're we are awesome people, you know, we we we try and behave and Model the behavior that we want to see in in these communities, which I'm sympathetic to but also, you know, I think it's the difference between saying we're showing up and we're gonna um, you know, model great behavior versus we're showing up and we're going to get involved perhaps in um A w3c dei Effort for example, those are sort of different things Um That's also reflected by the scope between the first and second choice places for number two and number five Right. Yeah. Number two is you know in in creating healthy spaces for productive community discussion, you know, that's sort of like modeling of of The behavior we want the standards behavior we want to see in the world Is is there hopefully that's well, that's the goal. Anyway, that's the plan and Yeah, so it's some of the The early pieces the other thing the other group that we shared this with actually was um some of the community Michael champion and and brian also we all did joined one of those w3c um office hours that I mentioned in the announcements section and Previewed this and just let them know What we're doing and a lot of people at the w3c are really interested in in number one And seeing how we can help with number one. Um, they're also interested in kind of a sub idea of number five that um brian And I kind of talked about around like helping people on board more effectively and more um in a more supported way to To the w3c. So, you know, uh, it's a big organization There's a lot to sort of grok and learn in terms of process and that kind of stuff. So if there was some way to pair a new w3c Participant with a buddy and maybe those are open jsf buddies. For example, you know, we can help people um Like on board a little bit. And so that was another like Thing that the the w that the the standards group thought well that would be really helpful So that's cool. It's cool to see that they would um That they like us Yeah, we got some some kind words so I think that that's actually really important because like I said the early on the For a lot of companies the ac roll rep and even participation is like a lot of it is ceremonial Like if you look at the ac or if you look at the w3c participation, most organizations Have one person to one working group And they're not necessarily active. They're just following and maybe for some of them. That's what they want But in a lot of my discussions Like people just kind of don't know how to participate and how to engage well And wind up sort of checking out so um, you know or end up sort of You know doing things that are not conducive to Making them a productive member of participation and everything so Yeah, I think that would be a really big deal like I feel like everybody could use a sort of buddy system help them find find their way and Participate well I'm curious if you know as in so far as like this is tracking with some of the projects that we're getting feedback from um Have has anyone here sort of and and also kind of re hearing the the six Possibilities again after a few weeks You know as you're thinking on any of these changed. Are there ones that you know, should we do a quick uh assessment of things that we're perhaps um More or less excited about uh Just in our group so that we can kind of Think about Which direction we might want to go with different things I think it's a good question. I again, there was a lot of interest from the w3c in that ac thread to work with us And i'm like, oh, that's great. What are we working on? You know, there's so much great stuff. So it would be good to start To start thinking about where we want to or where we'd like to focus Well, I'd almost put more value on the input we get from the community at large than than what we determined It's kind of like being your own therapist. It's better to get the input from someone else I did find the feedback from the w3c list super helpful because it's like just connecting I mean part of what part of why we're here is right to like Make the threads between our orgs like stronger and more productive, right and to hear them say, oh gosh Yeah, this would be really helpful if y'all could can help you know, that's phenomenal in my opinion But it's also got to work for our project communities too so um, so dom from the w3c is Proposing a a chat next week. Um, I'll I'll share details in the standards Slack channel for anybody who might be able to make it but this would just sort of be a continuation of the Brainstorm chatter just kind of get to know convo that we started at the ac office hours if y'all would be interested and available To attend and sort of bring perspective from the open js foundation You know, we'd love to love to have lots of folks thinking about it To robin's point. I think finding something really atomic That we could help with and and And just iterate and practice with would be really good especially if it fits within one of our Buckets like bucket five or bucket six or something for two any of the buckets I like them all so like I couldn't This is a bad idea for me to vote because I would vote for all of them so There's only one of you that we can Was like I would that would be eating the whole elephant as my pal brian likes to say so And that gives you indigestion and that's bad so So we'll continue this conversation with the projects. Hopefully by our next meeting we will have gathered All of the input from from those who are at least interested in providing it some projects are not not as Interested in this work just yet. That's totally fine Um, so to that end I I suppose also if you happen to be The folks on this call if you happen to be talking with folks from Other open jist project communities feel free to give and please do give them the elevator pitch here and and Gather their thoughts because it's just good to have more That feedback has found them and pointed out um and I think with that we can kind of make um more of a set of concrete Decisions about what some of those atomic things might be um And write some proposals for projects we can move forward on that fit All right other combo or question or Ideas also kibitzing Cool. All right, I'll stop my share and then I'll share this spreadsheet with everybody too. It's not That's made it. Okay. Oh I Uh, can someone upgrade? Mike champion I just clicked off the screen share and saw he was cool I uh, I don't let's see Hey, Mike, did you I'm not sure when you joined Did you have anything else you wanted to add about the w3c and Chat Oh, hi, jerry. Um No, uh, I think the the call dumb is organizing next week Is more w3c centric. They're trying to figure out how to deal with the The reality that a lot of the the standards work the standards are Basically ratifying work that happens in the open source community, but that's um, mostly in like chromium especially uh There's another call that I think you schedule you're working on that I think is more You know our six points that we want to get engagement from some of these w3c people There's a little We got a lot of we good response From the reach out we did saying here are six, uh, you know strategic goals or whatever we're calling them and Uh, but figuring out what exactly different people want to talk about is is where we are now So make sense Yes, and thank you. I did I did cross wires on the two and That that conversation was so fruitful that it did spark a couple of different threads. And so you're right. I did just cross the the meeting topics. Um, so Very good. Thank you for that clarification um But yeah, I think I think the invitation would still um perhaps stand for those in our community who would be interested in Yeah, but yeah, right, but there are two conversations one is more us asking them about You know the the things we talked about earlier in this call um, and then there's the other which is a point that uh Dominique he's Whatever his name is however you pronounce his name, um You know has has picked up especially Because of he was the uh, whatever the team conduct with web rtc which took forever to get standardized and the standard is really just the um What sort of the byproduct of the open source work? The coa and so he's he's trying to learn from that and hopefully Yeah, because w3c has to basically use an exception handling mechanism to Deal with things like web rtc and there's something else called the the web font That are what really have only one implementation and Uh, I think they're trying to learn they're trying to find a middle ground between In just having The the the code get developed and then the standard get written down as the Sort of all here's the apis where you eventually came up with Versus, you know the thing that really doesn't happen anymore, which is a bunch of people getting together in a room and designing an api and then going off and implementing it in in clean rooms And seeing if their implementations interoperate, but that's just not that just doesn't happen anymore. It's too inefficient and that reminds me of A series that that I should surface to this group if you find that That space kind of the meta space of This kind of process interesting as Michael champion, I know you you and I do The open forum europe Group is having these ongoing um sort of brown bag lunch series that About the intersection of standardization and open source and they they've been getting different representatives from Organizations, I think the jdf will present IETF w3c oasis others And you can sign up and attend These these talks and they've been so they've been too so far and they're very very very interesting on on this point specifically um I can share that in slack too. We've got lots of things to share with y'all in slack today So just just on a related note to a thing that mike said about things that don't happen anymore Like a lot of the early browsers tim originally made his Uh htp library available Like as free software and a bunch of early browsers use that So it's not like even from the very beginnings There wasn't some of that happening No fair point. I mean, I think I think that's that this is a little bit of a tangent But that's like kind of a whole sub theme which is for some folks This feels brand new and then for other folks like like brian your Remind like it's it's actually quite old like people have been doing this for a very long time and sort of Understanding the mechanics of it and like The benefits and when is it the right thing to do and that kind of thing is like super duper interesting Which is another reason why I think going with option number two the kind of Or number one, I'm sorry, so we'll just mixed up our Options there going with option number one would be really interesting for us because that would be a space where Open j s is part of that process in a formal way so um Cool other um any other thoughts or comments before uh Next agenda item nopers, okay cool um the last agenda item is um The issue 106 which is the home for reference implementation poly fills um Brian this was uh, this is one of yours We had tabled it but go ahead Yeah, I feel like it's part of the larger discussion that we're having because it had a lot of the same questions even um So we were tabling it while we waited for the survey results But I think that also these conversations we're having that that mic was just talking about and you were just talking about our also relevant here, so like if there's something to do it's A ways off still I think we need more information and discussions to know but um I think there's potentially something interesting there Should we should we remove the agenda label and perhaps put like I I think Can we put like a future long-term label or something? Yeah, like like I don't even so I was gonna say I don't even want to put like a backlog label on it because it's not a backlog it's like a pre-planning Kind of label that it yeah, so too should possibly Alter this discussion a bit. I've got one I I I think I I maintain the only current polyfill in the implementation of infill dot plural Should that Be one of these that we get considered Um, I think it's good food for the discussion that mic was having and for For our discussions, but I'm not sure how Like I don't know what the parameters to a solution there are like if you have a puzzle then I guess we could talk about it, but like Somehow we need to dig into this conversation with the w3c For that I think But I but I mean to to give content to any of this if this whole thing starts going somewhere I do literally have a polyfill implementation that is The only polyfill implementation of infill dot plural rules And I would be very happy to move its ownership of control under under The open js foundation or whatever if that starts making sense And it's also something that is actively relevant Given some of the proposals in tc 39 that are going to be adding more functionality to With the number format to be three proposal Going in and stuff like formatting The plurals of ranges for instance, that is functionality That is currently not supported by anyone and that's going to need first a polyfill that this can provide so Just thought I'd mentioned it I think it would be awesome to me. It makes perfect sense it particularly like as like the atomic project that we go with if we're going to kind of Proceed with the half number one like and also the development of some of these Continuation of some of these conversations with the w3c. I would love emily for you to Assuming that you're available and all of that that for it for you to Join some of those chats if you're able because I like not not gonna promise anything but Can you invite me specifically to things and then I can see if I can fit that in? Sure. Yes Because I know it's already so late and I'm always so grateful that you stay up and go on nice Snowy walks with us It's like I'm traveling, but I'm not I Jory, I hope I can be included explicitly on those as well in case I have time Yeah, I have like I've expressed some hesitation before on this topic primarily because like Like I think that it's totally fine if a polyfill should wants to move into the foundation great it's just a project like any other and I think that if a standards body wants to Incorporate into its process a polyfill requirement and Prefers to have an official place like our foundation here For that then great. We should work with them to do that But absent an official recommendation like an you know an official partnership with the standards body It starts to be a tricky You know landscape of you know competitiveness in the market and Implementations and like saying this is good and this is bad and so on and And that's why like white tz 39 has explicitly tried many times to stay out of that arena um Yeah, that that like goes right to some of the conversations like brian and I have had over the years kibitzing on this too um Sweet, I'm excited. I think we have lots of cool things that we could be kicking tires on just like jordan and emily Hit me up in slack. Just if you want to Get more details on calls, but I'll also put data in our standards slack channel So that you can opt in if you would like um our next meeting is Two weeks from Today, which is not april 2021. What hello? What month am I in? Skipping ahead to the spring already clearly um Is at march the ninth at two p.m. Eastern so Be there be square. I'm showing a conflict with the cpc on that time Yeah, if you're gonna march ninth. Oh, yeah, I am seeing that now as well on a different calendar. Um, cool We'll fix it. Yeah, we'll fix it. We'll we'll send um We'll square with the folks in In slack so we don't have to take up time, but All right, so attentively march the ninth Either now or perhaps in an earlier time um same day Groovy any other business All right meeting adjourned pretend gavel gavel gavel gavel Thank you