 Thank you so much for keeping us company and if you just tuned in, this is why in the morning my name is Dereva Hillary, time for politics. We look at the stillment in the count national or the senate assembly. We're saying it's a game of numbers. I'm speaking to kendim by a political analyst. We want to understand or to put things into perspective what is happening in the senate. Can't they make a sound decision on this county allocation funds? Why do we have to wait? Why are they postponing meetings after meeting sessions after another? Today there's a meeting convened virtually by majority leader Irongo Kangata to try to bring or to whip numbers to make sure the formula passes but there are people who don't want it to pass. The reason we do not know. Kenyans we only know what we've been told but then we blame ourselves. Do we read? We have the constitution. Have you gone through it? Send us your comments or questions to our social media platforms at Y-254 channel on Twitter, Y-254 channel, Facebook and Instagram. My name is Dereva Hillary and my handle is at Morani Hillary. We go straight to our conversation. Good morning kendim. Good morning Hillary. It's been a while since you were here last. Yes, thank you. Now what do you make of the current state of our senate? Because the same thing was happening a few days ago that could be last month or maybe June in the national assembly and of course even in the senate. So the whole house has been the house of cards and now the game of numbers. Do you think the senate has been holding counties at ransom if they do not pass this formula? The same thing that has been going on in this country where we politicize everything even the most important things because like this CRE formula should not have gone on as long as it has gone. You remember this formula was introduced in senate in 2019. We've had a whole year of discussing it, amending it and doing all these things that they're talking about. So right now what they're doing is a game, is a power play game. Even senators whose counties, actually every county is benefiting from this formula. Just that it has been framed that we have losers and gainers. There are no losers and gainers in this formula. But the biggest question or the biggest worry is why has it taken them all these while? This will be the seventh time they have found the point. The current formula that we are using, it was about the land mass. Now we are using the population and do you think the members or the people from the Motkanya region of course I know other regions will be benefiting if it passes. They say one man, one vote, one shilling. Do you think they are selfish in their thinking and in their method? Actually Hillary, the one man, one vote, one shilling is a concept that has been introduced by politicians. When you look at the proposed CRE formula, it doesn't have the one man, one vote, one shilling. What it has concentrated on is where functions are followed by funds. Like for health you're told that you're going to spend 17% of your funds and the current formula that you're using now, the second generation formula, allocates 45% of your population. So this one is even more one man, one vote, one shilling than the proposed formula. It's a concept that politicians have introduced to make it more political so that now it looks like Muntkanya because if it was one man, one vote a county like Nairobi County will get around 29 billion shillings and they are getting around 17 billion shillings because other factors have been considered. Poverty index has been considered. Development, land area, population, all those factors have been considered but we have decided to measure on where politicians have directed us. One man, one vote, one shilling, which is not even in the CRE formula. It has not been factored in the formula. True has been, this settlement has continued because these personcies, these and the other one refuses. We have seen the factions of those allied now, now to Deputy Ruto and it has been alluded, it's an allegation when Senator Murcomen speaks, he speaks the voice of Deputy Ruto. If another person speaks, he speaks the voice of the president. Now we have these two people trying to fight and it is alleged that most of these senators want to be governors. What do they have to lose? It's all they have to gain that when for example I campaign, let's call it campaign, for my county to get more funds when they become the governor, I have more funds at my disposal and as we have confirmed in this country, being a governor is not about development, it's about having more money to eat by what we have and again another factor we are not looking at in the proposed CRE formula is the mechanism they have put in place for to avoid corruption and embezzlement of funds. They have proposed that counties have internal audit mechanisms. That is one thing most of the senators were aspiring to be governors will fight. As they are allude that they are fighting the one man one vote one shilling, it's the mechanisms that have been put in place to make sure that money cannot be stolen from counties that they are fighting. Now with this continued rango we have counties that do not have even the equalization fund which they see a council of governors chair or Paranya has been calling on the government to disperse it. It has never been used for nine months. I think this is enough money but we have people who have not been paid in the counties. We are trying to fight Covid-19. The Nazis have not been paid their dues and other devolved functions will stall. Where do you think we are heading as a nation? Actually if this impasse goes on for longer than this counties are going to collapse. You can imagine counties have been running without money and as much as as long as a formula has not been passed or rather as long as the senator has not agreed which formula is supposed to be used counties cannot get money. So what happens now who pays the nurses and the doctors it's the counties right now we have a crisis the Covid-19 crisis. We cannot have hospitals where nurses and doctors are striking every now and then for something that the governors cannot can do nothing about. Again they are they are delaying the development. We all know in this country once campaign period once you get to the campaign periods there will be no developments. So this is 2020 where we delay development until maybe December before counties get funds so when do we have developments in these counties? When do we have services being delivered to Mwananchi in these counties as we are having power plays in Senate? I think the Senate is being unfair to the citizen because they have had this formula for one year where they had to make amendments they had they had time to do all these things they are telling us about they had a whole year to do to do that and then the CRI committee they they went through consult consultations this this formula was taken for public participation people passed it then it goes to the Senate and Senate decides we're not passing it right and they don't give us a reason the reason they're giving us is counties are losing but they're not telling us this counties are just saying are losing accounting like wajir what did it gain in 2000 and when did it start devolution in 2013 how did it gain how was it gained up to now one is talking about these counties have been getting funds and how much they have been getting we have some going to a total of 70 billion that they have gotten but now the conversation right now is how they are losing how are they losing from the formula when now they when we started devolution to lisema punda kimi e kwanza then now we can have the horses run after the pundas have run and at least doa pattern ini doa ways a pu kufika halfway true yeah i'm trying to look at the what you've just mentioned about the gaining and losing it is believed and it is according to this particular formula kirinaga will have 538 million shillings baringo will have 537 now that is central and now in yanzah bomet will have 456 million west pokot will have 444 million kaka mega which is now western will have 402 million bungama 400 million machakos 367 of which basic share is 14 percent population 18 percent and health 22 percent where these politicians they have dealt so much on the population and we are trying to look into do you think uh for the longest time do you think the counties that uh were getting the revenue according to land mass were riding on others like say kiambu county which has more people compared to wajia which has less people but because of the land mass they had more do you think it was unfair the the the current formula no i don't think it was unfair the current the first and second formula was supposed to correct historical injustices in these areas where places have stayed for so long without hospitals they have stayed for so long without they they didn't even have headquarters so what the first and second formula we're doing is make these counties catch up with kiambu na irobi counties that had the advantage of being developed before them so it wasn't unfair they were not trading on any county but now by now they should have caught up by now a county like marsa beach will have a hospital the land mass they're talking about they should have built roads or at least made the roads passable if they haven't done that by now then they'll never do it true yeah so by now what the formula was supposed to do is give them a head start like sasa kumbini then let the horses stand right as the horses wait now the horses now the third generation formula is telling the horses now you can start the your race and now punda when i say mapana horses was yanzi research assistant in the leku kimbia and you see that is not how you how you develop a country you cannot stall the developing counties so that the undeveloped counties can can catch up with them you need to develop both itpa because now this town has its functions in this country that is where we have pastoralism but can you bring pastoralism in na irobi county na irobi county has other services that it offers when you go to kiambu county it has other services that it offers you go to nakuro it has every county is unique with its functions so we can now say to nataka wajiri if you can irobi that will never happen true i've i've had an argument why why would the government build in highway uh northeastern parts of kenya and not build roads in our rural area like mont kenya the western region where we grow food people are arguing why do we have an iwi there and it is it is sake because of the infrastructure we need to to match they need to have something they can be proud of and it's something you're trying to mention about trying to catch up of which they we could say they are late but now coming back to the senate do you think the senate is independent in their decision making or they need they will always need an upper hand no the senate is not independent it's it's wishful we would like it to be independent but it's not independent you can see a lot of politics you can see hodiyam politics jubili a jubili e jubili b you can see kawai pa politics so there is no independence in jubili in senate every even that's how you find that people like murkomen whose counties are gaining in quotes from the formula are still opposing the formula because he's not talking about his county he's talking about his political affiliation which whether i am surprised that he's even opposing the formula considering that his his affiliation has been going to montkenya so when the formula is told to be benefiting montkenya i'll expect him to to really rally for the formula so that montkenya can benefit and in in view of this do you think it it's a strategy for them to appear to be against the formula uh to favor uh their man in the light that in the event that this formula goes through he will have something to tell them i was for you but what will you tell what will you tell the people who voted for him you see when you are voted as a senator you are supposed to represent the interest it's supposed to be very selfish you are representing the interest of your county that is why you understand when people like kindiki are opposing the formula because his county is losing in the formula but when someone like murkomen opposes the formula what is he opposing who does he represent the people he's representing are supposed to be gaining so he's supposed to be speaking for his county not his party now and when they all do this do you think we will have lost at the spirit of equality if every individual will go there to vote in the in the basket of my people because this will happen later on they will say i'm i'll vote because my people this is what they want i'm crying for my people the the montkenya want the one man one shilling one vote and then the other regions they marginalize will say we need more cash so at this point will it really pass but you see i don't understand that these we need more cash in marginalized places because i'm going back again to kiyambo how many how many people does the kiyambo referral hospitals have then okay let's say the equality that you're talking about what you mean by equality is if you're building hospitals let Nairobi have 300 bed capacity kiyambo has 300 bed capacity wajia has 300 bed capacity marusabit the same 300 bed capacity but is that is that fair to Nairobians and kiyambo where they have more people you see 300 bed capacity in wajia means that there are no people there so at times you're going to even have empty beds but you have when you have the same 300 bed capacity in Nairobi how many people are using that those beds in Nairobi Nairobi has more people so Nairobi will require more beds we can't say that hi parenting kiyambo know pacha we are gettingege Huake was saying that an equal that because we're not equal we are not the same number of people then we have places where people are a pastoralist where for example you build hospitals in a jeer the northeastern the benefit other countries more than the benefiters when you build a hospital link in a place in Nairobi People are referred to the hospital in Nairobi from other counties so it is better to improve the infrastructure in Nairobi than the other one make it standard where people can go there but they can be referred to this other place or go back to the system where we had the name provinces have referral hospitals in those places where they are the level of K and H where a person in all these times they have the hospital but don't say that in every county we have a referral hospital it's a waste of resources because if we have a the size of K and H in yuajir who does it serve there exactly what you're trying to put I think it's an argument that has has been highlighted by Hon. Bore Gathie from Nyeri he was saying the the CDF the he from his constituency what is given is the same amount that it will be given to an MP in the northeastern region now what happens according to him he says we we got the national schools in our counties coming this way we have national schools but no kid from those regions go to those schools not because of anything but because they never passed and there is no money to take them to those schools so they end up going to day schools this the the CDF can only cater for few people but them they have fewer people with more money so they are able to educate their people through big schools take them even to universities how we speaking of equality no we're not and again you see that's another angle that no one is talking about because when we're talking we're talking as if this this is the only funds that those counties have you're forgetting that these counties are getting the marginalization fund has not been removed for the marginalized count they're still the only thing that has been reduced is a the utilization fund and that is because now they are factoring the population of the 2019 census the marginalization funds still stand they're still receiving that money where that now they're supposed to catch up with other counties but now they still want to receive funds as you are receiving them by the 2009 census results then we're not even talking about the gaf the funds for the women rape we have CDF we have a lot of money going to counties but now when like Krega they were saying when in my county CDF comes to my MP because we are many the maximum I can get is 3000 shillings then when it goes to marisa bit a student there can get as much as 35% as it's even possible for the CDF to pay for that student national school it's not even about passing it's about if I'm called to alliance from my county and they cannot afford and the CDF gives me a maximum of 5000 shillings you see 5000 shillings is not enough to take me to alliance so I will opt to use that 5000 shillings to go to a discol there well this other person will be fully funded and done for shopping to go to alliance which is in each county and of course even in the same spirit brings me back to the question are the people in the Moutakanya region and other regions calling for equality are they selfish in their thinking no it's not about they're not being selfish they're being real you see devolution is a new concept in this country the reason we didn't have this conversation in the first formula is because they didn't even know what you are talking about then as as we go on now we get to understand devolution we get to understand how it works when we were in campus guys were being flown from Turkana County to University of Nairobi by the count by their by their governor because they could afford it but from my county you get your 5000 from the cdf because actually the the county the county government cannot even give bursaries because they don't even have enough money for bursaries so used to get the money from the cdf and that is around 5000 shillings to come to campus all right so by by by all means what i'm gathering here the formula should pass now as it is not you see what failed is a is a committee formula okay because what ceare does is it recommends gives recommendations to the senate then the senate can go and improve but around the recommendations given by the ceare so i think the formula that should be passed is what ceare had given as it was they don't amend anything let them pass it as it was and now at this point do you think uh the president should come in and Honabu Rail Holding as it is believed he will he will help the sheep from sinking do you think they will have so much to do with the the standoff in the senate in the spirit of the handshake the president you see how we are talking about these these kasiare formula i saw people on social media celebrating that formula may fail uhura may fail but but we have national government and we have the county government the the function of the senate is actually protecting the county governments it's not the function of that that will be the president going out of his constitutional function to come and protect the county governments from the senate that he's supposed to be protecting the county government i don't get him nika mawite nika mawite watch manuakutokamalipengi nakuji apkalisha watch manuako this is this is this is a function of senate the only reason the president will come in is to save devolution because as the way we are going the senators don't care whether we have devolution or not they don't care whether the county governments have money or not because they cared this thing will not have gone long will not have gone on for as long as it has gone on through yeah and you see it has taken them six times to sit down and try to see actually last last time wali toko siku and now i don't know what will happen tomorrow even with the weeping of votes this day i don't know what the result how the results will be but also looking into how they have been behaving in the past those a few meetings do we even still expect that they will pass the formula and if they will do is it because they will have been manipulated again because we say they are not independent and as we have said it's not even about for them it has stopped being about the formula for the senate it's now it's not even about the formula anymore it's about political interests and showing which which faction is more powerful than the other it's about odm showing that jubilee a and jubilee b we are more we are more powerful than you are we have more numbers it's about the political factions showing that we have more numbers than you it has stopped being about the seari formula it it has been alleged by a few um where she me was that uh honra boraila to the public he said the formula will pass as in he told his people you pass the formula but when he went to the closet he said don't and now we have we have other the jubilee party trying to tell the president please come speak to us help us to understand then do you think in the long run the spirit of handshake will lose meaning no the handshake the handshake i don't think the i don't think form up here would like to to do anything that will make the handshake shake i think there is one thing that you would like to protect very much so when when it comes when it comes to passing that revenue formula and it becomes about the handshake and that is where the handshake is anchored he will pass the formula he will tell it his people lick it to petition but you see again that's what i'm saying this is where we are losing it because it's not about odm it's not about the handshake it's not about the president it is about the counties and these people that we sent to Nairobi to go and represent as insane they're not representing the president that is why i don't understand why my my senator needs to be called by the president to be told to pass the formula he's supposed to go look at the formula is the formula good for my county pass it if it's good for my county does not matter what the president tells him if the president tells him don't pass it and it's good for my county who does it serve who voted for him is the president or is it me so and the other senator goes and looks at the formula thinking about you see that is what the north eastern the north eastern senators are doing then they are looking at the formula and they are looking at their interests how is my county benefiting from this how will which formula can benefit my county let's say land mass that is where we have land mass that is how my county benefits we we have we have poverty that is how my county benefits that is how we get more funds so that is what they're looking looking at now when we go to the the other senators from rift valley and mount kenya they're not looking at that they're looking at nani anasema to pete shagani they have stopped representing the people then they are representing their masters who is the wrong master all right and the reason I'm bringing the spirit of handshake here is because as we finish in february the mod kenya region met I remember the meeting at kinoru stadium it was about the mod kenya region uh the eastern kidogo but they they wanted this to pass this is our problem they feel they have been contributing so much to the national cake and it's about time now they have it uh I'm forgetting the name of this politician I wanted to quote him but he was like depends with who actually it's um Meru governor he says it depends on Kiraito Kiraito he said uh the cake sharing depends on so much who is holding the knife it's not even so much about the cake but who is holding the knife and that's why they knew we have to pass this formula for as long as the president is there so at this point do we need the president to make the senators to pass the formula the formula depends you see what what you're discussing right now not saying that you're going around this c r a formula debate the wrong way we are thinking about sharing the cake but who beg to the cake we are first supposed to see who beg to the cake what did each county contribute mod kenya is saying we have been contributing so much for years kuna kuna kuntiyan bai may contribute a pinch of salt but they want the same measure with the county that contributed flour to the cake so we are supposed to look at the bakers then distribute the cake according to the bakers what did you bring? we can't say that i bring flour another one brings eggs another one brings a keji of sugar and another one brings baking powder a pinch of it another one a pinch of salt i love to say it is equally each person has to be given according to what they have contributed that is why the formula goes back to rewarding the fees called discipline and responsibility that if you guys collect this amount of revenue you get more money because you have contributed this amount see i'm seeing an analogy of a family where the parent has to decide who gets what and what and what atuake so this is the president wondering how to solve this problem is there so much thing that other than the president who else other than the individuals again themselves who else do you think will make the senators to understand particularly actually where is the committee if the senators have been unable to decide for themselves should the committee this year committee come and explain what it means by the formula they came up with but they have done that since 2019 then our senators are feeling us yes the committee maybe the committee is not even supposed to be in senate their work is give them the their work is to have professionals who go to each counties discover the problems in each county then come consult go back to the people consult to the people then get the best they think that works best for the people give it to the senators and tell them work with this so they have this year committee have done it but the problem now is in the senators who have this thing that they understand whether the senators understand the they understand the proposed in any formula but now they are going back to power please all right brings me to the final recommendation what do you think the senate should be doing to ensure that we do not store the projects that are ongoing in our counties the the salaries of our nurses won't be stopped because they need to be paid otherwise they will strike and we are trying to fight kofi 19 and the are the frontliners we have given power to the wrong people right now it's the vote it's not even the president who shall be asking the senators to pass this formula it is the voters the voters are the ones who are being denied services they're the ones who are supposed to be telling the senator why we're to li kupigia kura what are you doing there why are you even arguing about this this is something we need money in the counties governors themselves need to speak out because they're the most the voters are the most affected but the governors are the ones who are feeling the heat because when nurses strike voters don't care that siarei was not passed they're looking at the governor li kula pesa ya li kula pesa and now they being they still have the pressures in kofi 19 so the governors should speak out to and speak to their senators and tell them to take it because they need the money in the counties again when they're given the money we know the senate is not even talking about what it should be doing the senate supposed to be overseeing are they being doing their oversight role to the governors they're supposed infarting ya kwachnongi about we are giving you this money but you want to see accountabilities if they were talking about the formula not not needing so much on accountability like what is what has a formula done to make sure governors don't steal money that is a conversation that we will be willing to have seven times but now it's not even about the mechanisms put in place to make sure that money does not leak out the which is their role to protect governors counties and protect the stealing of funds but now they are talking about one man one vote one shielding against one man one vote one shielding which is not even in the formula so they shall pass it all right thank you so much kendi for coming and trying to put things into perspective so senators the stop holding counties are transom you in the power you you are put there by the electorate to go and speak on our behalf so if this formula favors your people please pass it if it doesn't i don't know whether we will reject majority don't want majority want it so remains a 50 50 thing if it passes well and good if it doesn't then we need a solution because we are looking we're looming at a problem if the Nazis strike and we're trying to fight COVID-19 and it has spread to the communities then as a nation we'll be falling down and falling badly thank you so much for keeping us company you'll be taking a very short break after this interview i'm coming back with another segment trying to see how we are fearing on with COVID-19 especially young moms she has been my guest kendi umbaya political analyst it has been a pleasure thank you so much have yourself a very good and back home good morning keep it why in the morning my name is dereva hilary