 Hey friends, welcome to behind the scene Divine Intimacy Radio to Dan and Jordan Burke, not Stephanie today, because we're going to be talking about something Jordan has some expertise in that people are interested in knowing about, the Enneagram. So hang out and do that with us. There's a couple of things I want to tell you about before we jump into the show. Oh, and the show title I think is Demons in the Enneagram. So we have a Divine Intimacy and Marriage Retreat coming up February 2023 at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament, amazing place of life changing retreat. The Avalos Summit coming in 2024, I think it's called the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, the Marian Mystery and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, that's going to be awesome. And then the last thing I want to tell you about is pilgrimage to the Holy Land. We have filled up for 2023, but we already have six people signed up for our pilgrimage to the Holy Land in 2024, and that is going to be a life changing experience. So go out to spiritualdirection.com forward slash events to learn more. Okay. Ready to roll when your mark set go. This is Dan and Jordan Burke. Welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, your radio haven of rest. He has no idea what to say now because Stephanie usually says the hermitage of the heart and I say monastery of the mind where we left our hearts and minds to heaven to draw ourselves to the wisdom of the saints, the teachings of the church. And in this case today, we're going to be talking about the wisdom of the church and sort of in the sense of keeping us from error and harmful things and that sort of thing. So Jordan is, of course, my son, he normally produces the show. We have our trusty Chase Stevens chasing it down on the other side today is backing up for Jordan. So he could be on the show. We have we have a, what do you call it? First class relic. First class relic of Saint Gemma, Saint Gemma. She's prayed for us, watching over us, watching over us on this show. And talking about things that relate to spiritual warfare. And you recently were interviewed about this on what show was that? It's a parenting podcast by Dr. Mary Ruth Hackett, I believe is who it was. And I wish I could remember the name of her podcast, but I well, folks can look it up. Mary Ruth Hackett, H-A-C-K-E-T-T. I mean, I believe so. Yeah. Great. And why did she have you on the show? What was it? What was what was her interest? Inneagram for whatever reason is, I think it's kind of has a cyclical nature within the background of our within the background of everything that goes on, but it's kind of reemerging. Yeah. And that has been since, I guess, the 60s, but it's really kind of coming to a head in the younger, like my generation in younger. Yeah. And so she wanted to warn parents about the dangers of it. She was coming. The show was great. It's worth listening to. She was coming from her expertise in psychology and explaining, hey, listen, there's absolutely zero psychological backing to this. So she's a PhD in psych or psychology or psychiatry? I couldn't say for sure. Yeah. But either one of those. She's an expert in the area. Yeah. Right. And so she was concerned with what she's seen out there and of course, from her standpoint, it's a problematic. Right. Right. So what is the Inneagram? What's the best thing we're talking about? Well, so the Inneagram, if you search it, it's going to pop up with something like a personality test. Yeah. People generally think it's a personality test. Pops up next to like the disc assessment. It pops up next to all these other popular, what's the other one that generally pops up next to you? Myers-Briggs. Myers-Briggs. Yeah. Things of that nature. But the issue is that it's not a personality assessment. And then when you start diving into the history, you start to see where it originated from, what purpose it originated for from the guys who made it themselves, from their own writing and from their own mouse. It is, it has a demonic nature, demonic backing from the very beginning. And that's why we were, we're, you know, I've been hammering it for a while, but more people are kind of picking up the call as well as they should. Yeah. Saying, hey, you guys need to stay away from this. So that's a big, bold claim. How do you prove your claim that it has demonic origin? Thankfully, I don't have to. They, I'm literally just repeating what they said. So if you look at, so the architects of the Underground is about to get into the architects. You basically have three guys. You have George Krojev, difficult to pronounce last name, Oscar Chazzo, and then Claudio Naranjo, who was a student of Oscar Chazzo. But it was primarily these two guys. What's interesting is that there are people who make, try to make the claim that it originated even further back to a vagus apontus, which is not true. Right. It can't be proven anyway. Yeah. And the, and further back to somebody else who I can't remember, it's on my notes, but they try to say, you know, it's been around for, for centuries. And it's connected to Christian tradition. Right. Right. They do the same thing with Centering Prayer and try to say it connected to Teresa Vaval and John of the Cross and the Cloud of Unknowing. And if you know those writers, you know, those, those, those claims are completely bogus. Right. Right. Looking at the architects of, or who I call the architects of the Enneagram, you know, George kind of started it himself. I'll stick with the first names because it's easier. George started it. He, when he started this, he was involved with all sorts of different things from the Sufis, which is like a Muslim spin-off type. You know, I don't want to give full. Yeah. Mystical, mystical kind of, because I've heard Father Mitch Park would talk about this, it being rooted back in that. Right. And then a whole lot of other different things. And in fact, I'm glad you mentioned that because Father Mitch Pacqua is probably leading. He's probably the foremost expert I would, I would venture to guess from what I read on this topic. Yeah. Because he was trained in it and taught it and then realized the issues with it. Then he repented. And he hammers hammers. He went from bad Jesuit to good Jesuit. I don't know. I don't know if he did that. He, he hammers it and a lot of what, a lot of what I'm repeating can be found in his text. Although there are some things that I have found from there, from George's writings, from Oscar's writings and even video from Claudio. So, no, you said from Father's writings, we're on EWTN radio. Of course, we're live streaming. But now, but this will end up on EWTN radio. What book are you referencing? Because I'm sure it's an EWTN religious catalog. I don't think it's a book. It's an art. It's a very long article that he wrote. OK. I'd have to, I'd sitting on my desk. I think it's Catholics in the New Age. I think you'll find it in Catholics in the New Age. I'm pretty sure. But if you look up Father Mitch Pacqua and Enneagram, you're going to find what he wrote. And he has, like I said, he's probably the foremost expert on this topic right now. But let's go beyond that, right? Because you can find that, but you've done some research and found some pretty damning things that back up your claim that it's demonic in origin. Right. One, I think it's it's important to start by disassembling the false idea that it's a personality system because George, who brought it to light, who created it, never intended it to be used for. There wasn't there wasn't even any typing at the time. So Enneagram, for those who are unaware, it's, you know, you you you take these tests and then you get a type in. So it's nine types. So any any is nine and then Graham is I forgot what points I believe is what it is. And so people will have, excuse me, they will have. Oh, I'm a I'm a type three with a wing for whatever it is, right? They're trying to associate with whatever the says it is. However, George never had those types. Those were developed later on. What he developed was he developed it for the use of essentially Gnosticism. His belief was that all of the answers, all of the mysteries of the universe, everything that you could ever want to know can be found within the Enneagram, which is Gnosticism, right? So when you say he never developed it, what you mean is he did develop the system to gain Gnostic wisdom, right, so-called wisdom, right. But then it was morphed into be used as a into as a person as a pseudo personality test. And the reason I bring that up is because when you when you tell people, hey, this isn't this wasn't made to be used as a personality test, it was made for something completely different. Their argument is generally, well, I've gained some knowledge from that. It's like, well, but that's not how it was made. It's like, I think I use the analogy of using cyanide for seasoning. It's like you can you can use it for seasoning. You're just not going to like the effects of what. Well, and you you might have a demon tell you the truth from Ouija board. Right. But the costs of that are pretty high. Right. Precisely. Precisely. So the and even Richard Roar had has fully admitted that the origin was never designed for personality testing. And that should be telling. And Father Richard Roar is a big purveyor of this. And he's a guy who's way off the rails in terms of being opposed to the Magisterium of the Church and the long standing teaching for the church. Right. His works are a poison. He hides it under spirituality, but it's poison stuff. But he's been advocating it for a long time and like and just to reiterate, even he says that, yes, this was never intended to be originally a personality test. OK, so we haven't got to the demon thing yet. Right. So now now we can get into that. So George, Oscar, Claudio, they all work together. Right. This is later on Oscar and Claudio kind of developed the typing. And you can even watch. There's even a video where Claudio admits to where he got the name. You know, all this kind of stuff, right? And what's interesting is they had even said that when they spent time with George, George really didn't spend a whole lot of time on the enneagram. It's something that they took and kind of morphed into their own uses. The problem with that is is that Oscar, George, Claudio, all of these guys were all involved in shamanism, all involved in spirit reading, all involved in spirit dancing, deeply demonic. And it just and the dangerous witchcraft junk. Right. Right. It just goes down the rails, talking to the dead, all these other different things. So basically, if I were to summarize it, if you want a personality test from hell, right, that Satanists would love you to use and witches would love you to use. Right. This is it. So if you if you want a fake personality test, right? No, it's way worse than that. So that's my point, though. Right, right. It's way worse than a fake personality test because when you use or pursue things, I mean, scripture calls call, it uses the phrase doctrines of demons, St. Paul and the New Testament. When you go and you try to seek wisdom from demons, you are in some sense subordinating yourself to them and opening yourself up to them, which is why it's so stinking dangerous times 10. Right. Right. But keep going. Tell us more about the work. So they're involved in all these different occult practices fully admitted to it. They're all about it. And one of them at one point, I don't remember who it was. I think it was actually George was was trying to be an Orthodox or wanted to be an Orthodox priest and basically just rejected all religion and sought to find truth elsewhere, which is what kind of brought about, you know, his dabbling and shamanism in witchcraft and all these other different things that have that have been condemned, expressly condemned by the church. So you know, so why do we say that? Because we you cannot have good fruit from a bad tree. Right. And they're involved in things that are mortally grave and sinful that are condemned by the church and creating this thing that there are many in the church that are trying to use. So you can't you just can't that that doesn't mesh. It doesn't work, right? So what's fascinating is and I have all of these links and resources on my website and the research library. What is that? So do the harder thing.com. Yeah. If you go to resources at the bottom of that page, there's a research library where I where I try to hold on to all these links, including videos so people can find it all easier. Great. But the video specifically that I want to talk about before we go to the break is Claudio, who admits twice color, color video that he used automatic writing in order to to to to define the the types, the personality types. And it's so no, we were we need to head into a break. And why don't we cut it there? When we come back from the break, I want you to talk about automatic writing, if I remember right, even John at Bank of it. Yeah, women of grace, women of grace has covered that pretty well. She's got some good stuff against the New Age movement as well out at women of grace. But when we get back from the break, what's the big deal? Automatic writing, who cares? Jordan's going to tell us and you're listening to Divine Intimacy Radio. We're talking about the demonic origins of the Enneagram and we'll be right back. So 12, 12, 15, do the exact same. Yeah, we can do the same. OK, and you're back to go. Welcome back to wait, stop, reset. Come on, now. How do I get rid of all that? OK, very good. Thanks. And you're back to go. Welcome back. This is Dan and Jordan Burke, Divine Intimacy Radio. Jordan's a special guest today, taking Stephanie's chair. Of course, he is my son of whom I am very proud. He is a great ministry, works for the Abba Foundation. He has he helps us with email, social media, with what else do you do here? You go out and drive a tractor. You drive. He works on that. We have a home base, a retreat center, so he manages the property. But all right. So back to the Enneagram and we were talking about for the break, automatic writing. What's the big deal? So I will preface with I'm not an expert on automatic writing. I have a very I have an understanding, basically, from from the help of Women of Grace, who their article is probably one of the only ones that you can find on the process, however, from a Catholic perspective. Although that being said, if you search automatic writing, you'll find it on a lot of new, not even New Age, I mean, witchcraft type web sites. And there's even a popular book that I've seen in Catholic Church circles called Jesus Calling, I think that was came out of automatic writing. I was going to say, that's the first time I had heard of it was some writings from some saint or what was attributed to a saint was not permitted by the church because of automatic right. OK, so the church is aware of it. Yes, as condemned it. Yeah. But it's essentially if I'm giving like a very nutshell explanation. It's you're opening yourself up to some sort of spirit so that they essentially write for you. The idea is just kind of flow through you and some of the definitions people have described, you know, the pen is like moving on its own. So it's very different from like a creative writing process, which is just you using your brain. Right. Demons or demons added is quite a bit different. Right. Right. That's the problem. It's I think the most accurate comparison that I've seen is like a like a Ouija board where the spirit moves the, you know, whatever the little thing is. It's the same thing with the pen, which is why the church has said that it's bad. I mean, if I'm going to give the most clear definition, it's essentially saying, hey, some unknown spirit, come right for me. Yeah. And that's I mean, we know, we know the differences between the levels of possession. But I mean, it's like that's borderline possession. Yeah. And folks don't know the reason he's referencing that is because Stephanie and I have been involved in ecstasy and ministry and continued to be involved in deliverance ministry and work with ecstasy across the country. And and the the the sad part of all this is people blow it off and they think it's no big deal, but not everybody ends up possessed. I guess if everyone did, you know, people would be more afraid. That doesn't mean they're not influenced significantly by these things. So so I think if I remember right when you were you did a funny or a well thought out Instagram posts on this at due to harder thing, you talked about a dream or a vision. One of these guys had you said, oh, yeah, demonic origin. Yeah. So so Oscar or I believe it was Oscar, Oscar Chazzo. I'm referencing my notes real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His concept of the enneagram that he took from George. He developed while high on mescaline. So and so people. So you're going to go use this. I mean, there's no way that make it's saying to use this precisely as a Christian. Right. It's it's one of the most clear. So there's a lot of squishiness with some of this New Age stuff, right? Because it's hard to narrow down because the goalpost constantly changes. But this is one of the most clear that I've come across. And in my study of New Age, where it's like everywhere you turn, there is a deep black pit of problems from from from the from the shamanism and the witchcraft to the high on mescaline. And and he had to to hire beings, give him the information to write out to put to describe this is what the enneagram. Yeah, this is what it should be. And then his buddy, Claudia, our student and friend who used automatic writing to help create the types. This is what the types should be. Again, another spirit influenced or demonic influence is more appropriate of the definition. So I want to just before we end the show, we got about half six minutes or so with this. I want to speak to one issue I think you've heard over and over now, you and I haven't talked about this, but I know you've heard it. Right. It helped me. Right. Right. Right. So here's the thing. If there was a donkey that got that helped Balaam did not get killed by an angel, right? Balaam was off off the rails and the donkey is trying to help him. You know, you don't go to look into the donkey for wisdom. Right. Right. Right. I think I did a video on YouTube called Beware of the Donkey. Whether it helps you or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's a good thing. I have a buddy. I always talk about him because he was he came to Christ at a Grateful Dead concert. And what happened is I actually had somebody write in and what they justified that Grateful Dead is good. And all that. It's like, oh, wow. So what happened at the concert is the Lord lifted the veil and he saw clearly what was happening in all the demonic activity at the concert. And then he somehow was led to the answer of being Christ, right? So so the so another analogy is you don't need to go to Grateful Dead concerts to get to know Jesus. But when you the thing that happens is if there's good that comes out of these things, it's because of James four, seven and God's promise. If you don't need to God, he'll draw near to you. But that doesn't justify the use of these things. It's just that God loves us and he will in any way he can draw us to himself. But sorry, editor. But he will he will draw us to anything. But that doesn't justify the means. Right. You know, I've heard, you know, I think Richard Roars, the guy who teaches false teachings, I've heard people say, well, he helped me into the church. Great. I was helped by a heretic into the church, too. Right. By Molenos, who taught. It was a quietest, you know, taught false teachings about the church, but he helped me understand eridity. But really, who helped me? God helped me. So when I figured out he was a heretic, I I found I took the book and shredded it and used it in the bottom of the bird cage. Well, and even in my own conversion story, right? What was the major downfall of my conversion story? Pornography use, right? So porn. Yeah, porn. And you don't use porn to come to Jesus. Right. It just doesn't make any sense. And that's not even that's not even touching on the subjectivity of help. Right. Right. You know, the examples that you gave were very clear examples. It brought somebody to the church. Right. But when we're talking about the use of the enneagram and self knowledge, right, and personality tests, which is very loose anyway. I mean, the doctor who interviewed me was very great at explaining this. Now, Myers-Briggs is solid, though. I don't know. By a ton of research. Yeah, I'm aware of that. She mentioned the Big Five had about 40 years of testing. Yeah. So it's very valid. Yeah. So something like that, right? But this self knowledge, how do you determine whether or not it's good? It's very subjective. So when people say, yes, it helped me. I'm like, yeah, tell me about how you think it helped you. Right. Right. Yeah. If you're already in the church and here's the problem. If you are already a Catholic listening to this and you're utilizing this despite all of the history that they they write and claim and speak themselves, these architects who created it, you know, what what good can it be doing you? You're already in the church. Yeah. Where why are you looking for self knowledge in this? Why are you why are you utilizing tools that are outside of the church? Yeah, you don't need demons to help you to Jesus. You don't need Buddha, as I say, about mindfulness to help you to Jesus. You don't need Sufis to help you to Jesus because the church, you know, the entire divine economy, my favorite quote from the catechism is ordered to bring you to union with God. You need nothing outside of the church, period. And people who lead you there are people you should ignore. You should resist. You should not buy their books. You know, you buy stuff on mindfulness. You're going to damage your soul because it comes out of Buddhism. Right. No matter what the author claims, no matter even if the author is orthodox outside of those claims. Right. And so the question becomes, well, why can't we use tools outside of the church? My answer has always been, have you read all of the writings of the doctors of the church? Right. Have you have you read through all of scripture? Have you exhausted all the means? Right. Have you already have that's the perfect way of saying it? Have you read all of scripture? Have you read all of the catechisms? There's more than one. Most people don't know that. No. Now, it is true, of course. There is legitimate science that we can leverage. You're not speaking against that, like the Myers-Briggs, which I've used in the past and has as the PhD you were on her show said, has 40 years of testing behind it. The big five does. I don't know what Myers-Briggs has. It's one of those. OK. Yeah. So, but what you're saying is when it comes to things that, you know, the church is not lacking in its resources to help you gain self-knowledge. I'm basically warning against the draw, because there's some draw that this that new age, putting Enneagram within the realm of new age. Yeah. There's some draw that it has that has people constantly going, I want to look over there. That's because it's demonic. Right. It has a power and a draw to it because there's crap in you that's drawn to the demonic that you need to get rid of. Right. And the fact that you're drawn to it is something you need to be healed of, not to fall. Right. Precisely. So that's what I'm warning against. There's more than enough within the church that that can give you that knowledge that helps, you know. So that's that's that's kind of what I'm trying to say. So if folks want to find out more, they can go out to do the harder thing. Tell tell folks about your. Yeah. If you if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, I'd like to look into it myself. I'd probably start by just Googling Father Mitch Pacqua and Enneagram and read what he's written. Yeah. After that, I have even the I always get this wrong. It's Jesus Christ, the water bearer of life. Jesus, the bearer of the water of Jesus Christ, the bearer of the water of life. OK, I always get that. Yeah, that talks about it as well on the Vatican's website. Right. And I have that link along with links to the videos along with links to all sorts of things. And you did a funny. Would you call it a funny, funny video that you did? I thought it was hilarious. Yeah. He has a funny video you can share on it's on Facebook or social media. Do the harder thing, Instagram, because Facebook is a cesspool. Yeah, but you can evangelize. Yeah, it's true. It's true. So anyway, if you want to read this for yourself, if you want to confirm it for yourself, all those links are there. And bear in mind that I'm just repeating what these guys have written and said. It's it's as I said, this is one of the most clear cases of any new age thing out there that I've seen so far that is just everywhere you turn. It's just bad. There's just demons wrapped around every aspect of it. And you don't have to be Catholic. I mean, if you've got non-Catholic friends, this is really growing in evangelical Christianity. That's been a surprise. I was really shocked because they historically, I mean, I'm a convert from evangelicalism. Historically, they've been much more suspicious and discerning on these things than even sometimes Catholics than in my experience. But it's like growing like crazy in those circles. Yeah, it was introduced to me originally by a counselor or Christian counselor that I was going to. You're kidding me. No, no, that's where I was interested. Have you gotten back to them and said, hey, this is not good? I don't think they're receptive. OK, I have thought about it. And I'm just concerned it probably wouldn't be the smartest thing to do. Yeah, yeah. So unfortunately. So all right. Yeah. Well, I appreciate all your research and the good work you're doing to get the word out on this and many other things about our faith. Check out do the harder thing dot com. Yes, the website and Jordan's always fun and interesting. He's a much more fun version of the of the Burt clan. Depends on how much sleep I've got. Right. That's true. All right. Why don't you take us out until next time? May the God of peace make you perfect in holiness. May he preserve you whole and entire spirit, soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. For that 14.