 Say that this information will be relevant whether you're a multi-person agency or a solo freelancer or a solo renewer However, you define yourself. I think there's something that you're going to be able to take away from this talk But I do kind of want to gauge from the room. Can you raise your hand if you are a freelancer or work on your own? All right, awesome. And then can you raise your hand if you work with the larger team? All right, cool. We've got a good mix and then another question. How many of y'all have project managers you work with? All right, and then how many of you manage your own projects? All right, if you have a project manager, give them a hug when you see them. They probably need it For those that manage their own projects, I'm getting free hugs at the end of this. So just come up. I need one, too But seriously what I don't want to oversell what I do because I couldn't do anything I do without my team, but it can be hard dealing with clients can be frustrating and it's a bit of an art and a science so A little bit of context is the why this topic is important. That's where we're going to start Then we're going to walk through the parts of our process and ingenious And how we prioritize customer service at each stage So even if your process looks different than ours and it probably will and even if you don't have multiple Departments and teammates that are helping you out with all of this stuff The principles we discussed will be pertinent to you in your business We'll cover the importance of customer service during the sales process During the project itself once the sales closed when wrapping the project up and launching and then also Long after the website is launched and I think there's value to content there even if you don't provide ongoing support for your clients We will have time at the end for questions. So please if you have anything just hold it until then So I before I dive into the nitty gritty of customer service I want to provide a little context as to why this was something I was thinking about in the first place So about a year ago, we were doing a lot of inbound marketing a lot of content marketing And we were trying to figure out why do our clients work with us? We were making buyer personas trying to identify the trends across what were the major factors that sold them on us? And a lot of the things we were talking about was all based on Conjecture we assumed they like certain things and we weren't really just asking them and so we conducted a survey of our clients to try And figure out why they work with us and We imagine had to do with our great design work our awesome support system or maybe our competitive price point and While some of these if not all played a part in their decision to work with us The number one reason was because of our team They liked us and that was enough to drive their decision to work with us and this is a big surprise for us I mean, obviously we love our team. I mean look at us. We're adorable like we're great Like I love my team, but I never would have thought that was the number one reason that people were dropping thousands of dollars to work with us And so and I mean also the other thing is liking us is one thing, but it's not enough to retain clients and so I Started to think about other things that affect all this and things. I've been hearing from clients out of these surveys things that I wasn't really looking for they just kind of came up and One of the things that I heard over and over and over again with whether it was about an agency or an independent person They were working with is that they sucked at customer service. They were really really bad at it They didn't answer calls or they took weeks to respond They created timelines and then completely ignored them They made promises that they never kept and they disappeared as soon as the project was done and offering no ongoing support Or charging high costs to make simple changes Now people often come to you having some form of experience with an agency or freelancer and more often than not if they're coming to You it was probably a negative experience and no matter how great you are at your job You'll have to deal with these unconscious bias that they have towards you as a result of their poor experience They may respond more emotionally or more strongly than a situation warrants They may have trust issues and it may take more time to build up a healthy relationship It may start to sound like your counselor and that's kind of what you're doing to a certain extent You're having to read people and understand what they're feeling you have to have good emotional intelligence And all this really is to say that customer service isn't easy You can't please everyone no matter how good you are at your job, and it's impossible to keep 100% of your client base satisfied You can't control how people react All you can do is control how you treat people and how hard you're willing to work to satisfy them My boss has something recently that really stuck with me Which is this? Expectations don't really change regardless of how much money you have to spend if you're spending one million You're expecting a one million dollar return if you're spending three thousand you're expecting a one million dollar return The pressure to do great work does not change from small to big businesses And I believe this is indicative of why customer service can be so hard People are expecting the best no matter how much they pay you, but that doesn't mean you should lose hope There are ways to keep your customers happy produce great work and stay sane in the process So you're gonna find out how? all right So it all starts with sales customer service isn't something that begins once you have a client in the door It starts the moment you begin to interact with the prospect The relationship you form during the sales process has a big impact on the rest of the project So it's critical to make a good first impression Now the first thing to do is gonna sound really rudimentary to some of you But I heard this complaint over and over so I had to mention is make sure you have a sales team or make sure you Are responsive and available I've talked with clients before who tried to conduct research on our competitors Before like when deciding who to work with and sometimes our competitors wouldn't just Return calls I forget to return calls. They wouldn't pick up the phone in the first place So don't be that person pick up your phone and even if you don't have time to talk provide clear expectations on when you can reach back out People don't like being left in the dark and setting clear expectations is always key to customer service success This is something you're gonna hear me say over and over and over again clear expectations. That's huge So once you have those basics down, you should be selling consultatively This is our approach to the sales process and we believe it's a huge part of what makes us successful Now selling consultatively doesn't mean giving away your business expertise for free during the sales process It really just means listening to your potential client now I know that can be a little hairy It can be hard to know how much time should I invest in this before I'm willing to just push forward and one day We try to look at it is think about the opportunity cost if you see that this could be a huge referral part Partner for you down the road if you see this is an opportunity to get a lot of ongoing services Then spends them extra time on the front end like really digging into it because it could pay off in the end Another reason that this is really important to us is because we decided early on that we didn't want to spit out websites and digital services Just because we could we wanted to truly be partners with our clients and help them achieve their business goals And this is something we really Reiterate over and over again from the sales process all the way through launch is that we want to be your partner We want to help you So we're gonna look briefly at the way our sales approaches evolved over the years to be always less always be closing and Less about touting all the pros of our work and more about solving the client's pain Initial sales meetings are often called discovery meetings. So have the hindsight that you're the one discovering things about them not the reverse So at this stage, there's not much to be gained by talking about how many pages the site should have or how you can digitize the PDF forms All that's gonna come later focus instead on the pain of the client Focus on what they're telling you and take lots of notes so you can figure out Solutions for this pain after the meeting. It's okay to share some broad ideas for solutions But don't get caught up in any of your details at this point For example, perhaps point to the past work you've done that solve a similar problem to instill confidence Don't start sketching the home page even if you can already envision it And these are just some of the open-ended questions that we'd like to ask from the sales process This isn't comprehensive This isn't all of them and we wouldn't necessarily ask every single one of these with every single prospect But I think they're a good reflection of the kind of information you're trying to get at this stage You're trying to find out. Why do you want to do this in the first place? What are your long-term business goals? What's going to be success for you? How are you going to be satisfied at the end of this project again? It's setting clear expectations. If you know what they want this early in the process It's going to make it that much easier to deliver it down the road So after you've asked all the pertinent questions and have a thorough understanding of your process business and challenges Write a detailed proposal by crafting a comprehensive proposal. You can demonstrate that you get the prospects business This also gives a clearly defined scope of work that will set clear expectations and keep the project on track from start to finish The importance of a clear scope of work cannot be overstated and I think this quote is a great job of summing up why We've heard from clients that when working with other agencies or freelancers They didn't know what was included in the project and what was suspected of themselves or the people they were hiring This makes it difficult if not impossible to keep communication clear and transparent think about it This is an industry where basically anything is possible But that doesn't mean it's included in the project if the client wants something That's out of scope, but you didn't have a clearly defined scope of work in the first place It makes sense that they'd be confused or upset when you tell them that they can't have what they want or that It'll cost extra and it can also be really frustrating for you If you feel like you're back into a corner and you have no way to defend yourself or explain why they can't do that Within your proposal also be realistic with your timeline Most people complain about their agency's missing deadlines and if the prospect wants a fast project But it isn't realistic given what they want don't ever promise It can seem easy sometimes to take on a project just because you need the money or because it seems like a good opportunity But if you tell them you can complete it when you know it's not realistic That's going to hurt you down the road and it would have been a better idea just to let it pass And last but not least be honest about what you can provide If you're a single web designer make it clear that you may be Unresponsive at times due to the demands of your other clients If you won't be able to provide ongoing support give them that information on the front end If you lock someone into an agreement without setting these expectations on the front end it's going to cause problems down the road So if you listen on the front end Identify your prospects needs and address them extensively in a quality proposal. It'll make the rest of the project much easier It's not gonna solve all your problems You're still going to run into issues But this type of sales process prepares our team really well for working with the client because we know their motivation for the project And it also prepares the client for our process. They're already starting to know what they should expect when they're really in the door So once you've wowed the prospect with your comprehensive sales process and convince them to sign your proposal It's time to get the project started at this point customer service becomes even more important Obviously the client is now paying you so they'll expect a certain level of service And your sales team has already started to set expectations for what it will be like to work with you So you'll need to be sure you understand those expectations and can't deliver on the promises they've made So start by sitting down with your sales team and getting all the information they've gathered up until this point Review the proposal figure out the pain points of the client and why they're working with you and try to get a feel for the Personality this will help you anticipate their attitude and understand how to best communicate with them This is a small point, but I think it's really important and it's something I've kind of had to learn like stumbling through it as a project manager But people communicate very very differently and they'll respond very differently depending on how you reach out to them I have some clients who they'll send me one sentence emails that are super like blunt to the point And they like me to send them the same kind of stuff. They don't need paragraphs They don't need me to explain things. They just want short answers. I have other clients I need to send them an essay every email. They want me to explain everything They want to know all the details and that's okay like it can be frustrating It can be time-consuming, but if you know that at the very beginning and you start communicating in that way Then you're going to avoid frustration later on Also, this is a great ship. You haven't seen it gravity falls Okay, so now to some just more practical tips during the project itself that you can use So after you download the info from your sales team's brain, it's kind of really getting started and falling into some general tips So first and I've already kind of mentioned this be responsive. Don't make your feel your clients feel ignored forgotten Being responsive is critical at genius. We always respond to communication from a client within 24 hours Now that doesn't mean you should immediately react to everything to receive because being reactive Usually spells disaster and results and emotional outbursts instead of thoughtful responses Especially if you receive something from a client that's frustrating or upsetting in situations like this And when you don't have an immediate answer or solution to what's being discussed at least let the client know that they've been heard That will keep them from freaking out and thinking that they're being ignored or forgotten Send a quick email back saying that you've seen their message and you're working through it If you're on a call simply tell them that you don't have the answer now And you want to do your due diligence before telling them something This will give you the additional time to collect yourself and figure out how to move forward and will make the client feel heard And keep them from worrying unnecessarily This is something I do all the time if I get an email at the end of day on the Friday afternoon And it's gonna take a lot of critical thinking or maybe it just makes me angry because I didn't wasn't expecting that kind of feedback Or that kind of answer I just say hey, I saw this I'm gonna do a little time to sit on it I'll give you a response early Monday morning or something because really all they want to know is that you saw that and that You're thinking about it otherwise if you leave them in the dark They're just gonna start their imaginations are gonna run wild and to them anything could be possible So sell them down and make them feel heard Next honesty is key Be honest every step of the way if there's a delay that will slow down the project tell the client before they become concerned Addressing potential problems before they arise will keep communication and expectations clear and be honest about failure Studies have shown that the best clients and the biggest advocates of your business are the ones that dealt with the mistake that you made But we're delighted when you admitted your mistake and did everything you could to fix it Nobody's perfect and no one expects you to be but being honest about that is critical fail fast Mistakes are inevitable handle them with grace Failure and mistakes are what help us learn and they push us to acknowledge our shortcomings and grow That doesn't mean you should aim for failure obviously, but it does mean that you should be accepting of it Workplaces that severely punished failure or outright don't tolerate it are toxic and leave a stagnation If you want to get better you have to fall off the horse a couple times So you need to create a culture where it's okay to fail where it's okay to try something really hard and fall short a Culture that feels fear fear's failure will never take risks It also leads to dishonesty with your clients and as we just learned that's never the right way to do things So if you're a leader in your agency or freelancer, it's critical to create an environment in which there isn't fear failure and Tied up with this is the fact that the quicker you fail the quicker you can learn from the experience And that's really the key you have to learn from it I heard a quote on a Ted radio hour and I can't remember the speaker now of course But it really stuck with me where he said being bad with failure isn't being mad that you made a mistake or making the mistake in the first place being bad with failure is either not learning from it and repeating those mistakes or Not addressing the mistake in the first place and letting it run out of control because in the end That's just going to create more systemic problems and it's going to be in the even bigger headache for you in the end Don't be a yes, man Be willing to push back More often than not your clients will appreciate this They've hired you as an expert sometimes it will seem like they don't want to listen and sometimes that might be the case But if you're patient and talk through things with the client you may be able to convince them that using papyrus as their body Fond is a bad idea Now one caveat to this is that sometimes no matter how much you try to explain your reasoning or help a client make The best decision for their business. They won't want to listen Part of good customer service isn't just knowing when to push back But knowing when to concede knowing which battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't worth the effort You may have to make some decisions that you don't like as a designer But which will make the relationship much better and result in a happy client Keep in mind that this isn't about what you want as a designer But about providing a great experience for the end user i.e. your clients prospects and Customers so the client wants to do something that you don't like design wise But which won't negatively affect the end user experience. You should be more open to it And if you manage products on your own and don't have an intermediary to facilitate these conversations Just keep asking yourself questions like who is my target audience and will this affect their experience? This will help keep things in perspective and make it easier to concede when necessary This one is really top of mind for me because I know I work with a designer on my team And he's super brilliant and I appreciate everything he has to say But sometimes we'll get pushed back from a client and he really disagrees with it And he feels strong when he wants to talk through it and I tell him to be honest from my perspective If I was this end user I wouldn't even notice that change It would make no difference to me and I understand and appreciate your perspective But trying to convince the client otherwise and go through this conversation one It's going to hurt the relationship and two it is going to be wasted time in the end because it's really not Effect the end user anyway, so that can be really hard when especially when you're the designer and managing your own projects You want to you know, you want the work to be a good representation of who you are, but again, it's not about you It's about your client and really it's about your client's prospects and customers Handling scope creep there was a really good talk earlier today on scope creep if you didn't check it out I highly recommend you watch it once the video comes out This is going to be really just lightly touching on it So if you manage a project you're probably intimately familiar with scope creep Even if you craft an extremely detailed scope of work on the front end of the project Chances are the client will try to add some additional features or functionality down the line Like I said before we work in an industry where nearly anything is possible Working through the project your client will naturally start to have new ideas and input as they think through things more thoroughly Navigating these conversations can be complicated and difficult, but they're critical for success in keeping clients satisfied So when clients start to ask if something is doable don't feel the need to give them an immediate answer If it's clearly in scope tell them so and if it's out of scope tell them and offer to estimate any additional cost And if you're not sure tell them you'll get back to them This is directly tied to not being a yes, man If you immediately agree to anything your clients ask you're bound to agree to something out of scope The other reason is important to address scope creep is because it prevents you from doing free work and Helps clients understand the value of the work you do Offering discounts or making exceptions may seem like a good idea in a moment But it often results in clients appreciating and value your work less and they bought they've actually done studies on this when you make Exceptions and give discounts and stuff they value what you're giving them less They see it as being cheaper and not worth as much So stand by your process and your team and make sure you get paid for the work you do I really believe in this this is something we struggled with as an agency and we faced a lot and it was really Prevalent because our hearts really in the nonprofit world that's kind of where our agency got to start and We offered full grants for a while where we would build a website for someone from start to finish for local nonprofits in our area valued at around ten thousand dollars and a lot of clients were great But we also had a lot of clients that really took advantage of us. They didn't have any buy-in There wasn't really a clear scope of work So anything and everything was possible for them and the project dragged on so long and they kept adding more and more and more And we felt like we didn't have a leg to stand on to say otherwise So we've adjusted that now where we do partial grants So let's say we have someone who's five thousand dollars that they can spend on a site Then we'll do the other half of the work for free and we've seen it works much better people have more buy-in and more engaged It's clear what's actually included in the project and it's been a huge help for us So I really can't emphasize that enough the work you do is valuable to make sure you get paid for it Outline next steps again. Don't leave your clients in the dark At as always communication and setting clear expectations is key after every meeting or conversation Outline what will come next if the client won't hear from you for a few weeks because you'll have your head down building their site Let them know if you need something from them before you can move forward. Make sure they know that too Follow up after meetings and phone calls with an email which outlines the next steps And whether or not anything is needed from the client Over-communicating is better than under-communicating and ultimately your clients will be thankful for it It also ensures that you have a record of what you've told the client if they try to claim They didn't know you were waiting on something Having a clear record of what you asked for and when will give you a leg to stand on during those conversations Now people mind this isn't about being defensive or playing the blame game It's just making sure that you have a written record of what's been discussed so that you can clearly show them What hasn't hasn't been said It is to I mean it is to defend yourself if you are in a situation where they're trying to tell you Oh, we're behind track and it's your fault. You're like, well, no, I've asked for this for two weeks ago, and you never responded So that's why it's important And then out of these tips last and certainly not least is patience is a virtue Be patient. You're going to be asked questions that you think are common sense and annoying You're going to deal with frustrating and frustrating individuals that contradict themselves and go back on their word And you're going to deal with trust issues A lot of people have been burned by web designers and agencies in the past and they're going to carry these old wounds into the relationship with you recognizing this is important because Someone may get angry or upset with you for no reason other than they're having flashbacks to that past experience The key here is to always make sure your clients feel heard Even if they're responding inappropriately to a situation making the client feel understood will help immensely and defusing the situation Sometimes clients just want to process things verbally. I've experienced this firsthand where a client will call me livid They're they want to yell at me. They want to blame you for something and I just let them get it out I say I just sit back I say tell me what's wrong. Tell me why you're upset and I literally just let them get it all out Sometimes the result is they're totally calm afterwards other times. They're still angry and so I say hey I hear you. I don't think this is going to get us anywhere right now Let's continue this conversation next week trying to get to someone and have a constructive conversation when they're already heated You're probably not going to get anywhere and you make make things worse So know that you don't have to resolve it then you can make them feel heard, but you can address it later And another thing to keep in mind and I'm going to get kind of philosophical here But everyone is living complicated lives so a client's attitude could change Immensely depending on countless factors a deadline that the boss is pestering them about a fight with their spouse Having to clean up dog throw from their bed that morning As I mentioned earlier try not to be reactive give your client space to express express themselves And do your best to provide calm and collected input There's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist monk. I love her name's Pima Shadron and she talks about how You don't have to play the character in your head of this drama. You've created stop telling yourself stories about why the clients angry Stop saying oh, they want free work and oh, they just don't understand Let go of those assumptions because you're just making yourself angry and it's going to make the conversation that much harder Give them some space. Give them the benefit of the doubt and be patient so after launch The way your agency runs will have a big impact on how you handle customer service after a website is launched But whether you're retainer based or project based closing out the project and following up with clients is an important part of the process So often when we launch a website, this is how we want to react But even if you don't provide ongoing support for your clients There's some steps you can take to make them even more satisfied once the project is done So I mentioned the beginning of all of this that one of the main reasons I started to think about the importance of customer service Is because of the surveys we conducted Getting input from your clients is huge because otherwise you left guessing at what parts of your process worked Well, what could have been improved and what could be added or removed? Having consistent surveys that you send to clients immediately after a website launches will help you continually refine Improve your process. It's also another step in the process where you can make your clientele feel heard and valued Now honestly survey making is a science in and of itself and there are tons of great resources online you can use When I was crafting all these surveys for us I just did a ton of research and I was able to get a 50% response rate Which is pretty unusual and there's a lot of there are a lot of steps You can take to do it but just some practical tips I can give you now keep the survey five to ten questions long Any longer will deter people from completing it and any shorter will limit the amount of valuable feedback you can get When you send a survey provide an average for how long it'll take them to complete it Even at this stage setting clear expectations is critical if they know only the number of questions without knowing how Comprehensive they are again their imaginations are going to run wild and they may not even open it to see it in the first place And limit the number of open-ended questions you ask try to get the user options to choose from Again making the survey easy to complete will increase the likelihood that your clients will actually fill it out and make sure that you Send this right after the project is done You want to be really fresh on their minds because I mean even a week or a month down the road They're going to start to forget what went well what went poorly and what the feedback they give you is going to diminish in value And then some other things that I was doing to try and increase our response rates included sitting really personalized emails for each Client choosing clients that I knew we're going to be more responsive just on how they engaged with us already So kind of read your client base as well and think about who would one who would give me good feedback in the first place And not good as in you did great job of good as in can actually help you improve And then to who's just actually responsive and you know gets back to you quickly Another part of our process that we really like is the fact that we train our clients on how to use their websites The training is usually pretty rudimentary and covers things like changing text adding images or adding new portfolio items But it makes our clients feel empowered to update their sites One complaint I've often heard is that after someone's website was launched They had no ability to make simple changes so the information on the website would quickly become outdated They felt like their hands were tied and their site was being held hostage by their agency or freelancer Don't make your clients feel like prisoners because the ultimate result is that they'll leave you for someone else and Finally conduct a formal debrief with your team once the project is done This is more so for the benefit of your team, but it will help you provide better customer service in the long run By conducting debriefs, you can discuss what went well what went poorly and how your team can improve as a whole You can address parts of the sales process that were unclear and led to an insufficient scope of work and Find inefficiencies within your team that caused delays or resulted in mistakes You can find out how profitable the project was and devise a strategy for improving this in the future or replicating what you did well Debriefing this way helps repair you for your next projects and equips your team with the knowledge necessary to do an even better job and Last supporting clients post launch not everyone has the ability or the desire to provide support for their clients post launch But it's a big part of our business and we think it's beneficial While you may want to disappear after the website is finished The reality is WordPress requires regular maintenance because updates are coming in like crazy And those updates are important just get them long enough and you'll see things go to crap So it really helps to develop a plan or train your clients on how to do updates So whether you provide ongoing support to your clients and want some practical tips on how to do it Well, or you just want to know how providing ongoing support can help generate more business Listen on So first off some practical ways to provide awesome customer service after you've launched the site at this point You should expect this first one You'll need to set the right expectations You should have started this on the front end of the project during the sales process But this is another chance for you to reiterate yourself make it clear how your support system works Do you use a ticketing system? Do all the support requests go directly to your cell phone? Do you provide support 24-7 or only certain during certain business hours? How long does it usually take for you to respond to a request? How long does it take for you to resolve a problem? Making these details as clear if you want. I'm sorry Make these details clear if you want to minimize frustration and maximize satisfaction Speaking of frustration keep in mind that your clients will often become frustrated when working through support requests Unlike the web design process when clients are more focused on design preferences, which sometimes are arguably more subjective Support will often all be technical or mostly be technical and since the client likely doesn't understand these technical aspects They'll often become upset or frustrated simply because of their lack of knowledge to understand the problem and how it will be fixed It's beyond preference. It's just over their head. So you need to be prepared for this attitude Sometimes they're going to blame you even when it isn't your fault or do a really poor job of explaining the problem in the first place As with everything else try to remain patient Transparent and do your best to solve their problem without causing more confusion in the process So also have a list of trusted vendors that can provide additional services to your clients Even if you don't provide ongoing support or any other digital marketing services know who can your customers will love that you have Suggestions since that means less work for them and if they trust you they'll trust your recommendations If you do this they'll be more likely to come back to you for other services and recommendations in the future And this is something even we do even though we offer a ton of digital marketing services We don't do branding. We don't do photography. We don't do videography So we make sure we have a running list of vendors So we trust who we like kind of different ranges of price and stuff because we know we have a different range of clients and make Sure that we have options if they have ever have wants that we can't deliver on One other thing with this slide I forgot to include a little blurb about it But one of the things that we've been doing is we've been providing ongoing education to our clients for a while now And it's it was kind of a combination of marketing effort and ongoing engagement effort And so they're kind of similar to talks like these some of them are much more basic and going over the basics of things like SEO and SEM and Google analytics and things like that. We'll probably get into some more advanced stuff down the road But we have a lot of clients who attend them as well as potential clients and they really appreciate it They love the fact that we're willing to share more of our knowledge and put time into it And it also gives us a chance to just continually re-engage with them and continue those conversations So support is huge for us because as I stated earlier We want our clients to see us as partners in their business and we don't want them to see us this way Now don't get me wrong providing support can cause headaches and definitely adds another layer of complexity to our business But it also provides countless touch points for us to communicate with clients and sell additional services when they need them Starting conversations about redesigning a website or starting SEO services is a lot easier when the client is already coming to you With a problem related to those things It also doesn't feel sales your force It feels like a genuine attempt to help them reach their goals because that's what it is. That's what it should be and This is an important point that ties all of this together Providing great customer service will keep the clients you already have and naturally get them to recommend you to others Having referral partners and strong word of mouth marketing is indispensable And the only way to strengthen this those relationships is by providing stellar service and listening to your clients and prospects Yes Yeah, so the question was do we have like a template for the surveys that we send out once the websites gone live and then the second Part of the question was we use something like SurveyMonkey or another service for sending those surveys The question is yes to both we have a template that we use whenever a client launches And then we do you survey monkey for that makes it really easy to analyze the results and send them out mass I will say for the surveys. I conducted last year We did kind of two surveys one was like a competitive pricing one and one was digging into why clients worked with us I those were very different and anytime I would do a survey like that I'd make it extremely tailored based on the kinds of information that you're looking for And again to speak against survey making really is a science in and of itself So the kinds of questions you ask the format that you put them in Those systems should all be driven by what information you're looking for in the first place Honestly most of our clients don't have a ton of Difference in terms of those sorts of features. So so we haven't had anything like that yet, but that wouldn't be a bad idea to include Yeah, so I don't know if you have experience with this But sometimes you sell the client on wanting to be a partner and then they don't How do you How do you explain to them? Yes, we run into that all the time. There's no doubt about it I mean we'll have people who during the sales process like yes, absolutely like I want to be a partner And I trust you and you know you're the experts and I want to rely on everything you say And then you actually hit into the project and they don't want to do any of that I mean really they don't and so I don't think there's an easy answer to that But I think on a very basic level one just reminding them of what they said in the first place saying hey Like you said you wanted to be a partner like I have records of the things that we talked about in the first place Like why is that different now asking good questions is good to just asking why why why why is your has your opinion changed? Why are things different now? Why is your perception of our relationship been altered things like that? And I think sometimes you know you can you can bring client I've had the experience where some clients I've been able to convince them of you know Yes, originally what you said is true and I agree with that now I have other clients where eventually I just have to concede and I have to kind of balance like how can I get this project out The door while still remaining profitable and creating a product that's decent sometimes you result with something You're not super proud of maybe you don't want to even put your name on it. I mean honestly But in the end it's going to save you so much time and money if you just push it out And it's not about delivering like a poor quality of service or a poor product It's just it's delivering what they want what they're paying for essentially So I think all you can do is do your best and one thing that we always try to do is Even if they're pushing back on something and they don't agree with something we're doing What we always do is say hey, these are the reasons you should do it We can do whatever you want But we just are recommending against it right now so that if for some reason they come back later They're upset about the decision. We're like hey We told you all the reasons you shouldn't have done that and you still want to move forward So they really can't say anything at that point Where were you gonna say something to that too? Yeah, yeah, let's go pretty talk really good definitely recommend you check that out if you're interested in this Yeah Well Yeah, I think during the sales process It's it's a little more challenging. I think you need to be willing to make some be a little more flexible You know like I think once and again, it's because during the sales process That's when you're setting those expectations So if you know if you have someone who's like oh, I have to hop on the phone now It's like okay. I can do that don't expect that when you sign like that's not the level of service It's again. It's just being honest being transparent telling them hey right now I want to be there for you and it's because you want to sell them like but even at that point tell them Hey, I'm happy to help you now, but we we have we don't have this kind of bandwidth to do this all the time We're busy. We have other clients and typically if you try to be honest, they'll be okay with that But if their reaction to that is that's unacceptable Probably don't want to work with them Yeah any other questions It also he was talking before I work with Cody, so Our sales people are really good about telling us that kind of stuff to like this guy You know he was in the sales process, but he's not going to be your main contact So you don't you worry about it or he really needs you know a phone call on an email that kind of thing So that helps again with that knowing upfront how to communicate with people so that you can just go then get set Not that we should drop everything to call them that second But if you know phone call it's better than email going to have that yeah Yeah No So the way that she does things a little different from us And I'm definitely going to bring some of her ideas over and kind of talk through with our sales team some because I like a lot of what she said Our scope of work is included like when we in the whole proposal like what I assume most people do And I don't know which one would be better, you know, it's kind of it's really tough to say So the way she does things is She has the person like sign the proposal with like an estimated cost essentially like a range and then after that They agreed to the contract she creates a full like statement of work a scope of work with an accurate price assigned to it And then the person signs it and then she also includes whatever the budget for the project is she sets aside 30% of that for like changes So if anything is out of that statement of work, they pull from that 30% budget That's already been established at the very beginning of the project another idea She had that I really liked that I really want us to implement is having a scope of work is great But she also says that she itemizes like what's out of scope And I think that's a really good idea because again because everything is possible here, you know People just assumed so much so even if it isn't include the scope of work I've had clients were like wasn't that normal isn't that on every website? Isn't that just include and that's like no, it's not but they don't know that and you know You can't expect them to and so I think outlining those things as well is really really helpful. Yeah Because there was so much documentation Clearly she was that much larger client because I can't imagine Just sign off on everything. I mean she was literally saying they want to make a change and it's a hundred dollar change I'm not doing until they okay it and I'm just like in my world I don't think that's really realistic, but she's probably it's probably very beneficial and lucrative to her I'm just going to have you handle changes along the way. Do you actually fault and force them to okay something and then move on or do you just send an email like this is to Make you aware that this is happening in the chart of the apps and then they just think yeah Well, I mean how formal how detailed you have it's it's we don't have the solution I'll start by saying that we are definitely still trying to figure that out One it kind of just depends on the scope of the change if it's super quick and simple and I know I can knock it out in a couple minutes Yeah, like I know for our process we typically try to hold all changes till the very end We actually have like a feedback process so that if they do have any like specific preferences and stuff We can make sure we take those into account But look by like keeping it within that very end of the project We tell them you have 12 hours allotted for these revisions and I'm super explicit every step of the way of okay All those changes you gave us they're within this timeline or if I know it's gonna go over I'm like we're gonna estimate how long it takes to do each item and then you can choose what you want to do What you want to hold off on what you're willing to pay more money for so that has worked pretty well for us But even then it's hard to get people to understand why things cost what they cost and to get them to agree to those changes Suddenly they want some kind of custom form or map or you know something that is several hours worth of work We will we do change order. Yeah time to time Yeah, if I know it's gonna be like thousands of dollars that have a huge like a really gonna alter the project Yeah, yeah, if it's more than a couple hundred bucks. I'm gonna do a formal change order for sure Yeah Mm-hmm That's something we do to yeah Yeah That's a really good point buddy brought that up I actually adjusted that with a client this week If I know that their changes they can easily make and it's just gonna be tedious back and forth the other thing with tiny changes like that is they really have the They typically snowball where it's like and she kind of mentioned that in the scope creep talk where it's like Oh, yeah, I'll make that one quick change and switch out that image But then that turns into switching out 50 images and now you've spent hours doing this Yeah, yeah, so if you say hey like I understand you want to change that but you're probably gonna want to change other things down the road That's something you can easily do when we train you and it's gonna take you a little bit of time to do it Because otherwise, I mean like I said, they're gonna keep having more ideas They're gonna want to be creative as they start to see the finished product So telling them you're gonna have the power to change that it helps helps that Yeah Yeah But what kind of client are you going to be? Are you to have champagne chased and you want it like you want it? Oh, that's an extra $2,000 And I'm gonna have to pull it out of you that's an extra $750 are you going to be collaborative And we're gonna get this going with that doesn't add anything to the ultimate price and it's funny They laugh and they know who they are. Yeah, and so Actually going through it actually asks every question about what they want what they have and they realize that there's what do you want one Content form that's included. Do you want a whole a Compliant, you know, oh, that's extra, you know, and so they feel like you didn't just go out to parking lot And see what kind of car they were driving But the best thing about it is because you've had that conversation you can easily go back It kind of breaks the ice about going back. Remember, you didn't get the champagne taste We're getting into champagne taste territory. So should we either do it later? You can add this later or you can, you know, but you know, 40 divisions That kind of thing it allows you to get a funny way to bring back what they said for and they know it Yeah So we tailor it depending on the client depending on what plugins and features their website has and kind of what their skill level is with WordPress already We do have a template that we kind of omit and add things to depending on it But essentially I send an email to the client when I'm scheduling the training I'm like, hey, what's your level of experience with WordPress? Do you need training on really basic stuff like photo resizing so that you can make sure these images fit in the right sections And then what sections of the website are you going to be changing most frequently? And then I make sure that during the training we're honing in on those things. I was actually talking to one of the No, it's in person they come they come to our office I set up a user account for everyone in the training before they come into the office and then I walk through How to make those specific changes with them walking through on their computers as well and actually heard someone I was talking to please Sarah one of the organizers here And she was saying that she actually creates Like videos of those same exact things that she can give to the client so that they have those to use We have something like that But we call it our knowledge base as a part of our support system where it's the same exact thing It's that screen recordings of how to make those changes So we have we try to give those many resources as we can so that they can make those changes if they want to Yeah It depends Ideally we do it after the project is launched we like to be that kind of be the wrap-up of everything But like I said, I have a client where they this week literally they were over the revisions time And I told them and I was like you can definitely make these changes and I can train before we launch So the bill be ready by the time we do go live. So kind of just depends on what needs to be done still with the client refers our own agency And then we do it and then they have changes they want to make and all this stuff Yeah And Yeah, and I think too again It's about setting those expectations like if you tell the client really early on like hey We train you but if you're unavailable for months like don't expect us to then be able to make a bunch of changes You know like they may be you know upset or frustrated about it But I mean if you make that clear on the front end, there's really nothing they can say we also in our monthly Feed charge Well, we charge the clients each month includes like X number of hours for the year of us doing the stuff so Some clients don't want to get trained and they'll they'll even buy the extra support credits So that we just do it. Yeah Our clients really run the game and some some are like lawyers at no time at all And they don't want to look at the site and they trust us implicitly and other people don't want to pay As a dime because they're a nonprofit and they have Yeah Right, yeah, I think it's really case-by-case. Yeah Anything else? Yeah Yes, so I Is Yeah, so Documentation documentation documentation documentation we have we use HubSpot CRM and so we typically Every email we send is logged there and we can organize in chronologically and search for anything Any notes from phone calls or meetings go in there for anything pertinent that was discussed The sales team puts all their notes in there for us to check when we're starting the project And then also I typically carry all that over to Google Drive where we keep all our build assets and stuff so that My team can see that as well. They need access Mm-hmm and HubSpot CRM is free so Anyone else? Awesome. Well, thank y'all so much. I'm really glad you came