 Just to give you a brief introduction to myself, I'm Morris Gleason, I'm a genetic genealogist I've been for the last 10 years, genetic genealogist by night and sometimes psychiatrist, pharmaceutical physician by day and I have been using DNA for the last 8 years or so and I'm a co-administrator on the Gleason DNA project and last year I made an attempt to connect my Gleason surname with the ancient Irish channels and came across some interesting conundrums and challenges along the way and I'd like to tell you a little bit about them. So my talk is going to be available on YouTube as indeed most of these talks will be and I'm going to cover a variety of different topics related to the Gleason DNA project which was started by Judith Klassen some time ago, about 8 years ago or so and we have a web page and we have a blog and we also have a Facebook group where we exchange genealogical information and there's various benefits of joining the Gleason DNA project but I'm just going to focus on two of them. You can see another version of this talk on YouTube and there's the link down there and that goes through all of the different benefits but today I'm just focusing on how the surname project can place you on the human evolutionary tree and also help determine your deeper clan origins. So this is the Gleason DNA project results page and as Robert Casey was pointing out you just have a lovely colored pattern here which signifies the genetic signature of lineage 1 and here are all the people of lineage 1 and you've got a completely different colored pattern here which is the genetic signature of lineage 2. We also have a lineage 3 in the project and again a very different colored pattern just indicating a different type of genetic signature all very distinct from each other but people within each group are clearly related to each other because they have the same broadly speaking genetic signature. Now we know that everybody in lineage 2 comes from North Chippuriri because their most distant non-ancestors are all from that neck of the woods. Everyone in lineage 3 is from West Slayer. Everyone in lineage 1 goes back to England specifically Suffolk, specifically Cockfield, specifically Thomas Leason born in 1609 so it actually brings you back to a named ancestor. We also have a group up here which is a US group maybe Missouri or Ohio there's two leases up there but it's possibly an NPE, you can even see the name NPE there, non-paternal event not the parent expected probably an adoption or illegitimacy somewhere along the way. Then we have a fifth group of all ungrouped people and there's a good 25 people in that group some of them might be NPEs or the results of NPEs not the parent expected adoptions or illegitimacies or they could be just rare branches of leasons that have just don't have anybody in the database to match with at this point in time. So that's what the leason group looks like DNA helps group people together, it helps identify a person's origin and it also helps identify a person's ancestor. That's what you get if you join one of these surname projects. Now we mentioned NPEs and I want to talk a little bit about the causes of NPEs they could also be terms of bits, breaks in the transmission and it basically means that the transmission of either the surname or the DNA has been interrupted along that direct male line father father father excuse me a second I'm going to cough excuse me. Here's an example of a break in transmission for example let's look at this lady up here supposing the children became estranged from the father and rather than carrying the father's name they decided to carry the mother's name. So what would happen is you have the father's Y DNA now being associated not with the blue name but with the pink name and that passes down through the generations up to modern day up to 1900s and the sort of things that could make that happen would be if the children take the mother's name either because they're estranged from the father or you will not marry my daughter unless you change your name to my daughter's name you will not inherit my land unless you change your name to my name and that was so it could be for legal reasons as well but it can also be to swearing allegiance to the Lord so for example supposing the O'Brien's were near where the Gleason's came from one of the Gleason's might say please don't cut off my head I'll change my name to O'Brien will that do and the O'Brien's will say no I'm not really happy with that off of his head in which case you get no more Gleason's but if they weren't happy with it then you know you'd have an O'Brien by name but at least by DNA and I think that happened an awful lot here's another example where a different DNA is introduced so you get a DNA switch rather than a surname switch along that direct male line and this could be for example a lady Chatterney's lover situation where the married woman is unfaithful and why DNA is introduced or it could be if there's been an adoption in the family that the couple couldn't have children so they adopted a child who obviously had a different father in that case why DNA is going to come in and that why DNA will pass down the line and that can be due to adoption or infidelity for example so this is a disconnect between the why DNA and the surname they're technically called a non paternity event or not parental event or as Emily coined the term not the parent expected I prefer to use terms like surname or DNA switch because I think it's a little bit less technical than NPE now there's very many different causes and I think one of the ones that we really have to think about when we talk about Irish genetic genealogy is the swearing of allegiance to a Lord or a Chief and that could happen by servants by soldiers by vassals tenants and slaves they took the name of the chief or the plan that they were subject to and I think in all of our discussions we do have to keep in mind that there seem to be often a lot of chiefs in Ireland and not enough Indians we can't we can't all have come from chiefs and the head of the clan or royal blood you know there's some of us that would have been the stock of Indians you know the service the vassals the people that did most of the work so we have to bear that in mind as well adoption fostering and guardianship are obvious causes of changes or switches in surname or DNA a young widow and remember in those days life expectancy wasn't very high so it might have been 30 or it might have been 40 if a young woman gets married she has a child with one man then he dies then she remarries the next year and the child of the first man might take the name of the second one so that probably happened quite frequently as well and it's something that James Irvine has pointed out as being a major cause of these surnames or DNA switches that we don't really think about a legal condition of marriage or inheritance we've talked about taking the wife's name upon marriage for social reasons Oliver Cromwell was not Oliver Cromwell he was Oliver Williams but Cromwell on his wife's side was a very very famous ancestor Thomas Cromwell and so because his wife was of higher social status he took his wife's name so we should have really been had Oliver Williams coming in to do the conquest of Ireland but it was Oliver Cromwell customary coupling with powerful people now this was a this is a concept that I struggled to get my head around it was customary in ancient Ireland apparently for the wife to be coupled if with an important visitor and they would go away and they would find a room or something and then the wife might get pregnant as a result of which on her deathbed there was a naming custom where the wife would say I love you very much darling but our eldest is an O'Brien for example just plucking a name out of the Irish random and a thanks to Dennis O'Brien for a wonderful presentation the other day on my ancestors so they're very very strange custom I think it was came under Brehyn law and people say that we should bring the Brehyn laws back not to sure about this one but under Brehyn law infidelity and illegitimacy were very very different concepts to what we consider today so and I think Brehyn law almost bent over backwards to avoid any kind of concept of illegitimacy in their society so we should bear that in mind as well that there probably was a lot more DNA switching going on back in the good old days that would not have been frowned upon in the slightest another big cause of surnames or DNA switches is anglicization of the surname so for example the Irish word for green could be could be a reason why Hoonies fahies and even Gleason's might be associated with the surname green so and that happens with a lot of surnames as well that you get this anglicization so so two words that are completely linguistically on associates with each other can by translation become associated and there's many other causes for these switches and surname or DNA that we have to bear in line in mind and if we think that the surnames of Ireland came into existence about a thousand years ago that gives us an awful lot of time for these type of switches to take place so much so that there's roughly a 50% chance that the surname that you bear today doesn't actually go back to the person who originated that surname a thousand years ago 50% and the reason why we say that is that the NPE rate is about one to two percent per generation so if you assume there are 25 years per generation that's four generations in a hundred years 40 generations in a thousand going back to the beginning of surnames so that's an NPE rate of 14 to 80% if you choose 33 years per generation it gives you a 30 to 60% chance so all in all maybe a 50% chance a half half chance that you will not share the same DNA as the man who first held your surname but half of you will so we can expect many different genetic groups to be associated with a given surname so let's look at where DNA places with leasons on the human evolutionary tree well when I talk about the human evolutionary tree there are various versions of it available that I use in this type of research family tree DNA have the most comprehensive for new snips Wyful is another company and it gives the advantage of Wyful it gives the dates of the branching points which I find very useful isogs tree uses the old terminology it's least useful for this type of work but it is the most definitive of the various haplotry versions you'll find on the internet and then for or 1b only people Alex Williamson's big tree is indispensable and it's wonderfully presented graphically and then a variety of different haplotry projects and we have the L226 project administrators here where they have a very specific tree on their website and that can be the most detailed and the most up-to-date drilling down to the most downstream snips the most the snips of the the furthest downstream on the human evolutionary tree if you think of genetic Adam back in Africa as the furthest upstream then the most downstream ones are the ones that the haplotry projects are most interested in now the optimum tree would be one that has all of the snips the dates for the branching points the surnames associated with each of these DNA markers and the locations associated with each of these DNA markers that doesn't exist yet but like we were saying during Robert Casey's wonderful presentation that is coming hopefully in the next year or two we'll start to see some of this automated versions of these trees so let's look at least in lineage two and last year we took up some took out undertook some extensive big wide sniff testing and the big wide measures 50,000 snip markers on your Y chromosome and it gives you much finer scale detail of your position on the tree of mankind the human evolutionary tree and when we started this and these graphics are from Alex Williamson's big tree this is where we were in January 2015 we had three leasons not two leasons in the project of Prandorgasa Phelps a creamer and a Miller and a Carol over here and this gradually grew so that in April the leasons were joined by a third member and split into two branches Carol Prandorgasa Phelps creamer then in June we had some more members of the decent lineage to joining we then had a listen joining in which is a very exciting moment because he was almost missed he was so far distant from the rest of the people in the group he only appeared in the 25 marker results and I said I'm not really sure we should include you in the project this is by email you'd really have to do the big why and you just spent a hundred three hundred dollars and a hundred and eleven tests and it's five hundred and seventy five dollars I just kind of digested and just leave it for a while half an hour later I get an email from Family Tree DNA your new member has just ordered a big why test in June of 2016 then we're having one two three four five six seven eight nine members of lineage to test it and we've got two Carols now that then still the Prandorgasa Phelps creamer and the car thing Miller Tracy Tracy the tree is really beginning to fill out you can see that there's these blocks of snips here there's now four branches in Gleason lineage to and there's a snip progression going back up to Z two five five which is up there which is one of the more upstream snips and then August 2006 a lot of the previous ones and if I just go back one you see these are just positions when you've discovered a snip it doesn't have a name it just has a position on the chromosome and then it they get them named about three months later on average so this is all cutting edge this is all cutting edge science this is what happened up to August of this year and then I went on to why full and I collected the base of the branching point so I was able to put branching dates on each of the branching points the brown ones are calculated by Susan Hadeem of the Z two five five project the blue ones are from why full and the red ones are the time to most recent common ancestor so for example these two people here their most recent common ancestor is estimated to be about fifteen hundred AD but the snip that they share started around about a thousand and fifty AD so again there are huge ranges around these time and dating estimates but it you can see where we're heading we're actually gonna have a tree with dates for when the various branches occurred and that's really exciting what we can say from this is that based on these snips this Blesen block here came into existence somewhere before 1125 so I brought the Blesens back to at least 1125 possibly one thousand and fifty maybe even a little bit before then and that's really getting back to the time when surnames first began in Ireland and that's really a very exciting graph and tells you the beginnings of the genetic structure of the Blesens surname in Ireland going back to its origins and then we have a block up here that formed somewhere between 490 and 1050 and a block here that's 170 AD and we can go back to that two five five which is roughly about 2000 BC so a very exciting graph now that's like the key message is that DNA can actually date your surname and characterize its evolution and can also define the branching structure of your particular surnames family tree and this is what it kind of looks like there might be a pre-surname connection with the Carols the Phelps might be a recent non-paternity events going some type of the last 300-400 years what about the McCarty's and the Kramer's well maybe the Kramer was a recent non-paternity events the McCarty's they might have been an ancient non-paternity events are somehow related with the traces but but which came first who is related to who and of course MPEs happened before surnames as well there's the line of about a thousand AD when surnames happened so this is what you have to try and figure out is which came first the O'Brien egg or the Blesens chicken so that was placing us on the human evolutionary tree and it's told us a lot already but let's look and see if we can determine the deeper clan origins of the family what have we found via DNA and what would we expect to find based on the genealogy so one approach is you're taking the DNA and you're saying what does this tell us about the genealogy the other approach is you're taking the genealogy and you're asking well what would we expect to find in the DNA if the genealogy is correct the ancient genealogy's so let's look at the DNA first we've seen this already quite clearly let's put it in a graph and then it's just looking at the project specific DNA we'll come to the haplotree DNA later but then project specific DNA tells us there's these four groups the English north ticker area the West Slayer and this US group and the DNA marker for the English is well-defined the north tick goes z255 and all the way down to z16437 and then branch out into Gleason specific snips West Slayer Gleason's are Dalcassians L226 is the defining marker and the defining marker in the US group is J terminal snip M172 the time to most recent common ancestor yeah we've defined that 1609 for the English somewhere around 500 for the north tipped ones 1750 for West Slayer and the US ones about 1800 most recent common ancestor probably a Thomas Leason for the English leason's lineage one lineage two we haven't identified a person for the most recent common ancestor but we have possibly for the lineage three in West Clare it's probably Cornelius Leason born about 1750 and we don't know who the most recent common ancestor says there is for the US group the location Suffolk north tip West Slayer and then Ohio or Missouri is it an NPE the English one I don't know we have no idea the north tip is probably a pre-Surname connection with everybody else there might be a recent NPE for the West Slayers you know a Brian might have been around in the 1500 1600s and the Leason's I took the Leason name for whatever reason and the US ones probably a recent NPE because they suspect that from their own personal family genealogy as well a possible plan association just for the West Slayer ones L226 suggests that they would be Delgache so that's what the DNA tells us about the genealogy what would we expect to find in the DNA results based on the genealogy the historical evidence the ancient text so it's taking it the looking out of the other perspective well there's a variety of different sources for the ancient genealogies we can look at John Graham's certain distribution maps they're very very useful certain dictionaries like Wolf McLeish's and her heart can be useful and all the ones with a link here are available online there's general sources like Google that you can find on Google such as the plans of Ireland and Wikipedia the font of all knowledge be very very careful that there are lots of errors lots of errors in Wikipedia there are various learner texts and for us leasons there's Dermot F. Leason and the Reverend John Gleason who've published a lot of local histories there's David Austin Larkin who wrote a book on the Irish sets back in 2007 and he's Australian I think have you come across him no no and there's various academic journals as well a lot more available online the Journal of the Cork Historical and Archaeological Society for example and to query historical journal North Monster and Aquarian Journal as well some useful articles in those journals and then the ancient animals the thousands of foremasters is available online the linear Antiqua by Roger O'Farrell is online as well Kelts which is a project down in Cork has a lot of information online Barty Ascii's thesis on early Irish kingship and succession that is available online you just Google that and that he has included 76 pages of tabular genealogies for all of the major Irish lineages but it is incomplete and he did not use the last reference Lauer Mornen and Naloch the great book of Irish genealogies written in 1650 and edited and published by Naloch O'Murilla from University College Galway in 2004 that's where I found my North Tipperary Gleason's and Gerard brought it in the other day I did my lumbar spine trying to lift it up off the table it's a massive volume the six volumes and I think it's about 18 hundred pages are more than that so it's absolutely huge but Gerard very kindly has loaned his copy to the genealogical Society of Ireland and they have it in their archive in Dunduri and so if you do want to go down and consult it go down look at the index first for your surname and then you will actually go to the relevant page which is in Irish with an English translation on the other page will it be digitized well it be digitized the project we're working on however all of the original text is in the UCD online so you can access the original so you can access the original in the UCD in Gaelic and we know your fluent in Gaelic is my 12-year-old grandson alright okay very good so once more the grandchildren are showing us what to do fabulous so I used these sources to see if I could find Gleason names in the ancient annals starting off with John Grenham's wonderful maps and here you can see in the 1850s Griffith's valuation there's a blob of Gleason's generally concentrated over north Tipperary which most people would assume was the traditional homeland of the Gleason's and when we look at Pender census from the 1650s and the titulados the title of people you see some titles leasons again in that area of north Tipperary so we're looking for an origin in north tip maybe one main DNA signature with a couple of smaller percentages of other DNA signatures over time the surname dictionaries tell us that Gleason means the descent of Blossom which is a diminutive of gloss or gray in other places it'll be green it is a found in Corkland right Tipperary and Kilkenny and in Kerry it is anglicized to the same the main steps was located in lower Ormond exactly in that area of north Tipperary when we look at McLeis and Irish families he says they belong to the era okay so who are the era and immediately you have this problem of translation and pronunciation and people spelling the same thing in different ways it's very confusing and you can get easily misled the country was counter-tipperary between Nina and Lockdurg again that same area that you see on the maps the Barony of Era so the era Barony of Era was named after the era but they were originally from Muscaree County Cork so now we're being translocated to County Cork we're in different areas of the country completely they lived in the Mach-Evry in Arrows country so now we have a named individual they were of the same stock as the O'Donagans now remember the O'Donagans because they've caused me a lot of trouble now there's also they were not Dan Cassians according to McLeis and what else do we have there yes so that was that was what McLeis had said but there's no sources mentioned now you can find McLeis at sources apparently if you go to the National Library but that just gives you an indication of how disparate the actual sources are so another surname dictionary shows that from Reverend Patrick Wolff that there were McFlashins in Ulster and it means green some of Flashin diminutive of gloss made in Greater Green a West Ulster surname and certainly in the 1911 census we have McLeish and McLeish and McLeishan in Down, Leitrim and Dublin so this raises the question is some McLeishans become a Glashin and then Gleeson are they a separate genetic group do I need to I need to test these people to find out if there's any kind of similarity with other Gleesons maybe some of the ungrouped Gleesons belong to this group the surname dictionary is for the to also talk about Gleesons in East Cork the name of the family who were anciently seated in the barony of Immokili but long dispersed through Munster now very rare so and O'Heart kind of confirms this he says or Glashin or Gleeson were chiefs of Immokili he McIlly now the barony of Immokili in County Cork so this is separate genetic group to the ones we see in North Tipperary and Ulster are there in fact three distinct groups of the Gleesons spread across the island of Ireland how likely is a multi-origin surname how likely is it that the name Gleeson sprung up spontaneously three or four or five different places throughout Ireland at around about the same time the answer is very likely because gloss means gray or green Gleeson is the diminutive little green how likely is it that in ancient Ireland there were lots of little green men where the Gleesons leprechauns are Martians also if you look at the index of lower morning and a lock loss was also used as a forename so as all you could be gloss on O'Brien for example so the surname evolution is this a theory we had the must the Donagans are associated with the Gleesons and Muscri County Cork they moved up to Ara so we are told but did they originally come from Immokili in East Cork and then move over to Muscri and then up to Ara so are we looking at several mass migrations of an entire group of people or are we looking at two to three different possible origins for the surname are we looking for two to three distinct genetic signatures well we can add a little bit to our chart we now know that the North Tickrary people according to McLeis's and Dermot Eftley's came from Muscri and we've added two more groups in an Ulster group and an East Cork group but we no idea if they have a DNA marker a most recent common ancestor we have some idea of where their ancestral location might be but we don't know anything else about them because no DNA no information so here's a couple of slides on what the analysts say so now this is going back into Ljavar Morn and the Nalock and remember this is not online in an English format so you have to go to Dunleary Library take out German book open the book it's also the National Library go to the index and then go to the appropriate book and find this little blurb and the Ulster Gleisens are descended from the Fir Ulla the men of Ulster the Thal Fiatok and again apologies to any Irish scholars in the audience for my probably appalling a pronunciation of our Gaelic language which I didn't learn enough in school and the men of Ulster are descended from Fiatok Fjön and there is the whole lineage there ending up with Devon and that his son was Lausanne and from which the kennel Lausanne came from the kennel being kind of a sep or a mini clan if this is true if this ancient genealogy is not propaganda then there should be similar DNA signatures with related surnames so for example Lausanne was the son of Devon but here's other sons as well who possibly gave rise to other surnames looking at the DNA signature of those other surnames we should see some kind of relationship with the Gleisens in Ulster so that's further research that needs to be done I need to find out what are those associated surnames and then try and target those people for DNA testing but there's no Ulster Gleisens tested no distinct group found and there's no evidence as yet that these animals as written are correct as yet if we turn to East Cork now or more than an alex says Lausanne from who are that we Gleishawn son of Braem son of Mescal son of Urhala Devdontua and Conor and these are I so I put that into an Excel spreadsheet and gave rough timelines for when that might actually occur because it'd be very interesting to find out just when these people were supposedly born and then Brad Abortyasi actually has this in his publication as well and they're supposed to be descended from the E Mexicala which is the set of the E Leohon there's the E Leohon up there accepted the Dora Caraba Dora Caraba up there related surnames were the O'Donagans hold on the O'Donagans were mentioned in relation to North Tipperary not East Cork are people getting their people getting their wires crossed you know because we have no idea what these earlier scholars had access to they certainly don't have access to the digital online resources that we have today so this is research that still needs to be done to try and dissect out the various mistakes that previous researchers have made as well and references like Wikipedia said that they're related to the O'Reagans as well and again where do they get that information from it's not written on the Wikipedia editor page so I cannot tell but at least has given me some clues I need to look for O'Donagans of Dwyer's O'Reagans to see if they have similar genetic signatures to the Blesons of East Cork and this is the East Cork Bleson here's a map from the Cork Historical and Archaeological Society Journal and you can see Cork here and I'm superimposing a modern map this is the Barony of Immokili and just over here on this side but just west of Yol is the E Glasheen territory here you can see it on an old map there is Imaketir Imakala and you can see some of the other sets mentioned on the map as well and again there may be a genetic connection with some of these people so the point is that there is information out there even the pipe roll of coin it describes these East Cork Blesons as being betas and I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that correctly better but these were local land stewards they controlled the land for the local gentry and Larkin associates from the Bally Blesane House and Rath Cormac and Rath Blesane and this is a quote from the pipe roll pipe roll of coin the Atlassian were the original name of the Manor of Inchequin which lay in the Inhinterland of the town of Yol was substantially based on the native territory of we Glasheen evidence of which were one of the regnal families of Imakala and ancestors to the many Bleson families found in the district today that was written in 1939 well we need to test Blesons from East Cork to see if their genetic signature is anything like the signature from North Tipperary so and here's a summary of the North tip information we have McLeish it's surname dictionary saying the originators of muskery they were the same stock as the Adonagans but we saw the Adonagans mentioned in relation to East Cork crossed wires there possibly Waelid Al-Kassian the Reverend John Bleson said yes they were but then his nephew Dermot F. Bleson said no they're not we all said Larkin saying their associate would plonk, concorb, ara, sept and again I need to get more information on the ara and their associate with Bally Bleson near Bally Roan and Leish. Dermot F. Bleson who did a lot of very very good research and has it's very well very well referenced said they descend from the pre-calctic race of the muskery or Aeron or Ara and again I need to get more information on what that actually means but the associated surnames and it's not clear this association is a genetic one or a kinship one or a non-kinship one includes the Malachnese also known as Malachna, Maloni, Maloni, the Fihiles also Fili, the Ahogans but the non-Darkassian branch of the Ahogans and the burqueries also known as Baragra. Are there any Malachnese in the audience? Does anybody recognize any of these three these names among the list of their ancestors and what name is that Maloni and that just goes to show how rare these other names are and how difficult it is going to be to collect DNA to see if there's any association genetically between these associated families and the clistens of North Tiberary. Oh, Ahogans, yeah, Ahogans would be the exception but burqueries is still is quite a rare name, Tiberary, very very Tiberary, Fili and Fili, North Tip. Are there many of them around? I'll be coming to you later, Michael. Lots of Ahogans, definitely, but a lot of the Ahogans will be Dalkassian rather than non-Dalkassian. So that North Tiberary signature is established, I think we've 99% happy that it has been established by the DNA project, but there's no evidence that the annals are true unless some of the matches that we're getting with the clistens are called McLaughlin and McLaughlin. So I'm wondering if that's a corruption of Molochni, McLaughlin, McLaughlin, Molochni. Again, an interesting theory that will lead us down to further DNA testing. So now we can add in a few more bits of information on our chart. We know that the Ulsters are associated with the tribe of Dahlfiathok, the East Cork clistens are associated with the tribe of the Iliahon and the Oedonican is possibly a link between the East Cork and the North Tip. So that's where I am currently with that particular theory. I might have to do a PhD to actually complete all this work. It is a huge amount of work and not enough men have been tested from East Cork or Ulster at this point in time and there's no evidence that the annals are true as yet, but at least we have access to the annals in a way we did not have previously and we have pointers for further avenues of research. So we've looked at if the annals are true, what percentage of the Gleesons would you expect to share the planned DNA signature? That's an interesting question. Do you think that if the annals were true, how many people think that the Gleesons would share the planned DNA signature, the North Tip Gleesons, how many of them do you think would have that North Tip signature? Just over 50%? Less than 50%? Okay, the majority of people are saying less than 50%. Here's an interesting slide from Brad Larkin who took a look at just how many people, given a certain surname, have the DNA signature of that actual surname. And if we look at the O'Brien's, and we have Dennis O'Brien, Dennis Rice and Robert Casey here in the audience who are intimately associated with this information, only about 19% of people with the name O'Brien have the planned signature L226 as their DNA signature. So only 19% of the O'Brien's have the definitive DNA marker for the O'Brien's. Only about 6% of the Kennedys have the definitive marker for the Kennedys as part of their genetic signature. The cases are a little bit different. 50% of the cases have that genetic signature, possibly because Robert has actually gone out and swabbed all of them. Hogan's as well, only 31% of the Hogan's have the definitive signature associated with the Hogan's. McGroud's a 23%, the Carey's a 17%. And what this clearly tells us is the vast majority of people will not possess the DNA signature of their originating plan. Some plan DNA will have filtered through, but only some, and in relatively small quantities. And therefore, many men will need to test their YDNA in order to detect this relatively weak signal coming from our plan originators. And that's a very important point, because we need more men to test. Absolutely we need more men to test. You might think, oh, you know, you got 19 Gleason's in Lineage 2. Isn't that enough? No, it's not enough. We need 1900. So we need many, many more men to actually do their DNA testing, the YDNA testing. So we've looked at what would you expect to find in the DNA results based on the ancient texts. Now let's go back to the DNA again. Let's look at Hapler Group DNA. If the history is wrong, does the DNA tell us anything? Does it give us any clues? Supposing the history is all wrong. Who does the DNA tell us we are related to? And that's when you look at the Hapler Tree DNA data going back and asking if it doesn't tell us anything about the genealogy. And you'll see this picture before. This is the big tree. What I've managed to do now is, well, first of all, this is Alex Williamson's big tree, which only contains NGS data. Next generation sequencing. This is only people who've tested with the big Y or the 1000 genome project and have done those very extensive and expensive tests. It's not comprehensive. And what I did was I went to Nigel McCarthy's website, the Z255 project, the Oral 21 Hapler Group project, and the Ireland YDNA project. And I included people who have single SNP tests or who had downstream SNPs tested on SNP packs. And what I was able to find was two carols in the Z255 project, two more carols, they fit in there. Two McMahons who were Z16435 positive, one of them from Z255, one of them from Ireland YDNA. I also found a couple of McCarthy's from Nigel's project. I found two more McMahons in the McLaughlin, one branch further up from the Z255 project. I found an O'Keeffe in the L21 project. I found an organ, or that might be a Hogan or an organ Hogan, in the Morrison in the Z255 who were tested up at Z16437. So there could be anywhere downstream of that. And I also found a Bowman and Nicholson and McConnell on the Mac. And then what I did was I looked at surnames and I did a surname analysis. And I found that just based on SEO data, there was an additional list of surnames that could be associated with the name Gleason. I think that's a very dangerous analysis to do because you don't know what you're dealing with and there's going to be huge amount of convergence potentially in that SEO data. And I would say the majority of these names, if not all of them, are red herrings. But I spent two days doing that analysis. And there is the days again. Now just to give you an idea of Gleason territory, here are the of Gleason's here. This is Loch Durg. The Shannon is out here. The mouth of the Shannon. Nina is round about somewhere up there. And the nearest neighbors would include people like the O'Carrolls of Edie, the Elio Carroll. The Macmahons over in East Plare. The McCarthy's in North Cork. So that gives you an idea of the topography of the area. And what we find and remember, one of the close matches was Phelps. I'll just go back to that tree. Here's a Phelps down here. So the question is, why do we have these surnames as close neighbors? How do you explain a Phelps being related to the Gleason's? Maybe 500 or 1000 years back. But how do you explain it? Well, Thomas Phelps was a Cromwellian soldier from Gloucestershire, Granted Lands and County Tipperary. And these are the lands he was granted. There's Killis-Gully. There's Bell in the Hinge. This is exactly where my Gleason family lived. So, you know, Thomas Phelps was Granted Land right beside where the Gleason's had a stronghold. And probably what happened is that Mrs. Phelps couldn't have a baby, so they adopted a local child who had been fathered by either a Gleason or a McMahon or a McCarthy, or one of those names from the surrounding area. And that's why there is a genetic association between the Gleason's and Phelps. Phelps, which is most highly concentrated in Gloucestershire in England. And there should be no reason at all why that particular group of family in Gloucestershire are related to the Gleasons of North Tipperary. Another example is Bell. Bell was a very close match. And this chap here is Z255, his most distant non-ancestor was Percy Bell, born in 1912 in New Orleans, Louisiana. And he's African-American. How does an African-American get related to Gleasons of North Tipperary? Probability is that it's a legacy of slavery that at least an or a McMahon or McCarthy or a Carol went over to America and fathered a child. And these are his descendants. So it's very, very important to look at the genealogy of the people that you're matching. It always comes back to traditional genealogy. And that will tell you a huge amount of information that may change your theory on how the various people are connected. So looking at the North Tipperary Carol match. And here you see Z255. So there's quite a match. The Carols are on the immediate adjacent branch. There are 16 members in this group. So it's not likely to be a recent NPE. If it was a recent NPE, you'd probably get much smaller people. And if you look, and if I could, but I can't because I'm not the administrator of this project, if I could look at the time to most recent ancestor of the most distantly related, it would give me some indication of when this group arose. I can't do that. The administrator of the Carol project can. And one of my tasks is to write to that person and say, can you tell me how old this group is? And he'll probably come back and say, oh, it's somewhere pretty old, around about 1300s. That's my calculation just based on the number of mutations you see among the members of that particular group. So it's not a recent NPE. We're not looking at the 1850s. We're looking at way, way, way back. So the proximity of the Elyocaryl to the Blesons makes me think that a lot of these people here are probably carols by name, but Blesons by DNA, perhaps because an ancient Bleson swore allegiance to one of the Ocarols. An ancient Bleson was adopted by the Ocarols and inherited the surname that way. Or this could be an example of fostering back in the 1300s. So these are various theories that you can come up with as a result of this analysis. But there's no clear indication of which came first, the Ocarol Bleson or the Ocarol chicken or the Bleson egg. Similarly, with the Mac Mannes, here's the group that we match. And you can see also that there are 16 members in this group as well established. There's many mutations among this group. So it's not likely to be a recent NPE. It's probably pre-1300s. People are coming from Galway, Limerick, Clare and Kerry. So it is quite spread out, not really around the Tipperary area. But the proximity to the Mac Mannes of Talmont, which is just across the river in Clare, suggests that there was a close connection between the two. Maybe these are Mac Mannes by name, but again, Blesons by DNA. The Blesons swear allegiance to the Mac Mannes. They did a Mac Mann couple adopt at least in child because they were barren. You know, these are the kind of theories that you can come up with. Lastly, the McCarthy's with whom we have a quite a close connection. They were kings of Desmond and Cork and Kerry. Mac McCarthy's by name, Blesons by DNA, possibly, Elio Keefe was also an offshoot and Creamer, because we had a Creamer among our matches, is an Agnomen of MacArthur. A Westcourt MacArthur family known as to the writer, which took Croman as an Agnomen in due course, became the Creamer family following migration to London. Again, coming back to the traditional genealogical techniques gives you an explanation for what you're actually seeing. So that's the technique that I've used to try and link and explain why my Blesons are related to Carols and Phelps and Bells and Creamers and Macarthies. And maybe this is more what it looks like. The Phelps and the Bell were probably recent non-paternity events in the last couple of hundred years. The link between the Blesons and the Carols and the Macarthies might be ancient MPEs or even pre-Surname clan connections. At this point in time, it's still too early to tell and we need a lot more people to test in order to answer that question. And we also need associated surnames to do that test as well. So that's the current status of the spreadsheet summarizing the DNA and our deeper origins. So some clan connections have already been well established. And we've had wonderful presentations today from Dennis, Dennis O'Brien, Dennis Wright and Robert Casey, talking about the Dalgosh and Irish Type 3 and also the L226 projects. We previously had presentations about the Munster Irish from Elizabeth Adonahu-Ross, who is in the room somewhere. And there she is there, see the hand. And Nigel McCarthy and Finn Barrow-Mahoney. And Brad Larkin gave a wonderful talk last year about the DNA and its association with the Irish annals. And that's well worth while looking at as well. It's important to remember that most people will not bear the distinctive DNA signature of their surname. And we need to do a lot more wide DNA testing to try and tease out all these various components. Connecting to the ancient clans can be very difficult, especially for the lesser clans, the Indians rather than the chiefs. And we may not appear in these ancient annals, these ancient texts. So that's another challenge as well. Next generation sequencing is really changing this whole landscape. And we will be getting a lot more information from these NGS tests and these new SNPs that we're discovering all the time. The haplogroup administrators are a boundless source of information, advice and support. And I encourage everybody who joins the surname project to join the corresponding haplogroup project as well. You saw that for my chart, my descendancy chart, I had to go into various haplogroup projects to get the members who had not been included in Alex Williamson's Big Tree. And that's one of the big challenges is that a person who's tested might join one haplogroup project. But there's others that he could join that he doesn't. Or there's other geographic projects like the Munster Irish project that they don't join. So you really have to look at a variety of different sources, try and harvest all of the relevant information for the analysis that you're doing. Luckily, many of the annals are now online. And we can make use of that. Do we have a wiki page for the ancient annals, Debbie? No. Wow, you've got great homework when you go back, don't you? Somebody else can do that. Okay, I'll volunteer. So we will be able to collate them. And as more of these annals become digitized and become available online, we will be able to use that as a great resource. And I think also with the advent of things like Richard III, we'll be using more profound and in depth statistical analyses like Bayesian statistics or correlation coefficients to actually link the different surnames with specific genetic signatures. And John Read, who's in the audience, did a wonderful lecture last year on how they use Bayesian statistics to identify the remains of Richard III with 99.96% probability. There's more than that. I think there are a couple of extra .9s there, wasn't there? Yes. So that's all I have for you. Thank you very, very much for listening. I'll answer any questions you have. I'll turn off the microphone for you. Debbie can be kind enough to do the rounds. Then we've got a few moments for a few questions. Oh, thank you. That was a fantastic talk. I'm a bit over excited. So I've got two questions. One is, while we're quite romantically and excitedly looking backwards, it just seemed amazing how far you've come back. Do you think in a brave New World kind of way there might be wrong for when you've given birth to a baby that you took its DNA? Or is that a bit sinister? Oh, no, I think that's coming. It's probably going to be here in the next 10 years. You'll do a Heel Prick test and instead of just testing for the inborn errors of metabolism, it'll do the whole genomic sequence and it'll also give you 50% of your DNA of your ancestors. So do you think that's dangerous? I think that is a topic that will have to be discussed by society. Just to give you an example, when the phone book came out in the 1950s, people were in uproar, they said, this is the end of privacy. So, you know, the concerns they had in the 1950s about the phone book are exactly the same concerns were happening today about Facebook, people posting everything teenagers posting things on Facebook that are going to come back to haunt them. You know, if you think Hillary and Donald are having trouble, just, you know, wait another couple of years. You have a second question. Yeah, my second question for excitedly got much more contested with the Ancestry 70 pounds-ish DNA test, but I want to do all that you've done. So, not advocating anybody in particular, but where would you recommend that we get the why DNA test? Why DNA is only done by family tree DNA. So if you wanted to get your male children tested for their direct male line, father, father, father, father, father, father, then get them to do the Y DNA test. Right. Well, you don't have a Y chromosome, unfortunately. Well, do you have a brother? Do you have a first cousin? No, no, I'm adopted. I haven't got anything. All right. Well, you simply have to find your birth family and then get one of the males there to do the test. Okay, I'll do that now. Yeah. But which tests would you have and cross defective? For adoptees? For people generally. For people generally. I think if you're going to dip your toe in the water, do an autosomal DNA test. So and you can do that with any of the three companies. You're interested in the medical ask for the things you would want to treat me. If you're just interested in a general test, then Ancestry or family tree DNA would be absolutely fine. Thank you so much. And there are several of the questions, Gerard and then Ed and Great. Thanks very much, Maris. Very interesting. The good news, of course, is that the three names you mentioned, McMahon's Jim McMahon, is the administrator. X and they have extensive research on McMahon. On the Eli O'Carrolls is probably one of the best research projects. And that's Peter Biggins. And we all know Nigel McCarty. Sure. I've been in touch with all of them. Yeah, super. So and the McMahon and the Eli O'Carrolls are linked. This is via the Sun College, a broader fan grouping. So it's possible that this is maybe a broader one about it. Sure. Sure. Before too many people escape, I'd just like to thank Maris for organizing such a wonderful conference, and for inviting Dennis O'Brien myself. And Robert Casey to speak on behalf of our particular thing, but take about well done. Thank you. Well, going back to Eastcourt, have you considered surname substitutions for the Eastcourt game? The reason why I'm saying this is because we've got the O'Donovan plan on that side of the country, but they are actually recorded as Donningham's in records. And that's quite an aspect to help you do this. Very interesting. And we've also got a good clutch of Hogan's as well on the Goldwood with Oxford. I'll be coming down to you for a weekend. We've got similar surnames in the Macquarie as well. So other surnames from North Titlary. So there was a migration? There's something going on there. Yeah, but obviously, so they only come back to 1790 soon. Thanks for that. I mean, this illustrates how important it is to get local history to actually inform your research as well. Just, just more as a kind of a follow on from previous question, anything in the the annals or any explanation for such large migration? For example, that one from Eastcourt to North Titlary? How far back would it have taken place? That's a very good question. I don't know why would there be such migration? Surely it wasn't lack of land, the data of the population of the country was very, very small. Well, there would have been several migrations like the Azulim there. Wasn't that a major migration? The population displaced people? Yeah, but should we know that leases were in October area back to 1400? I mean, right. According to government leases and so it must be well, well back before that. I think it'd be very interesting to test the Eastcourt leases and just see if there is a genetic connection there with North Titlary. There seems to be a lot of overlap and criss-crossing and some of the animal evidence. And so we need to do the DNA testing to actually find sorted out. Who sponsored the Lower Mourn and Nealock? I'm sure it was written to the favourable source, the writer. The Franciscan was sponsored Lower Mourn and Nealock, yeah. Hi, I was a great presentation up there, really. You're welcome. Thank you. You mentioned Nigel McCarthy there. I'm interested, you know, would you try and do the same methods that Nigel is doing in his DNA testing? Because I'm part of a group actually, two of his groups. Would you be interested to do the same sort of thing for leases? I have done it and there is a YouTube video where I built a mutation history tree based on Nigel's methods, which is basically anchoring the upper branches of the tree, more upstream branches with SNP testing. And then using the STO's to actually try and do the finer branching more downstream, bringing you up to the present day. And how do you find that? Is it major? It's challenging because it's not automated. So I'm using an Excel spreadsheet and doing like lines and coloured boxes and all that kind of stuff. So it takes hours. But it is interesting at this point to see that the Gleason then goes back to at least 1200 genetically. From this analysis, it goes back to at least 1125. And again, those are broad estimates. But you know, we are going back to very close to when the Gleason surname began. I think in the future, when we do have a little bit of automation, we will have a better definition. Currently, Nigel is only using 67 marker, YDNA results. I think he's right because certainly when you don't have a lot of branches within the surname project, you do need that higher level of definition and delineation. And I think 67 gives you that 37 probably is not. And I'm finding it difficult to plot my 37 marker members on the tree. 67 is much easier, 111 much easier again. One of the things I want to do is go through Nigel Z255 family tree and calculate the number of back mutations and parallel mutations that you see below Z25 and actually put a percentage on each of those types of mutations. I think Alphabre and I are expected to like. Yes, now Nigel has done some fantastic work and in many ways he's a pioneer of this technique, certainly in Ireland anyway. And he's done some fantastic work with Elizabeth and I will draw something more manly from the Munster Irish project. So I always point to people towards Nigel and his wonderful phylogenetic trees. Certainly in my presentation on YouTube, I use his phylogenetic tree quite a lot as well. We have time for two more questions and then we'll have to leave and move on to Ed Gilbert to tell us about the Irish DNA Athos. Very good. Thank you, Marcel. It's wonderful. I'd prefix my one question with a request that you display the page that had a listing of the various textual sources. Oh, sure. So I make notes. My question relates to that first question asked by the lady up front. Am I correct in thinking that the Irish Health Service Executive for our maternity hospitals had the reservoir of 100,000 or 200,000 DNA samples? And was that reservoir destroyed or sustained or put in storage? I don't know, but I imagine that they do have a reservoir that they will not have a consent from the people to do anything with it other than what they've already done, which was check those babies for inborn errors of metabolism at every, you know, the helicric test. But Ed might actually have an answer to that. But I think it's a very, very good question. Is there a reservoir of DNA that we already have available in Ireland? So for the metabolism diseases that will most certainly just be a biochemical test. So if we test them with DNA, but it won't have a test with also. And also you won't have the ethics to be able to do that. Exactly. You just won't. Cool. One last question. How is it established? That is a major question. We have people here like Dallas O'Brien who would love to answer that question. It takes a lot of testing. So you have to test a lot of men and you have to compare the DNA profile against each other. Those that have a similar profile are grouped together. And you get enough people in a group, then you've got a DNA signature for that group. Now what Dennis Rice did in his 2009 publication was he took all the Dalcassian names that are identified from the ancient animals. And he said, okay, well, if this genetic signature is to make the genetic signature of the Dalcassian families characterized by these various surnames, Dalcassian surnames, do we see this genetic signature more commonly in people with Dalcassian surnames than people without Dalcassian surnames? And if I'm correct, it was like 40% of people who had Dalcassian surnames had that DNA signature and only 10% of people with non-Dalcassian surnames had that DNA signature. And that was a significant difference. I hope I've summarized your life's work. I know it's late but I just want to make one small comment that I think is worthwhile. Sure. You've got a number of surnames that are related to the Alcades. And yes, they are not all L2-6. But a number of them are also Irish type 2, the CPS-466, which is a very major monster surname as well. So that genetic history is going back well beyond L2-6. And it's split in there all together, they're intermarrying, and it can sometimes be next to impossible to figure out what the true story might be. Absolutely. Because a lot of those signals are very, very weak. And you have to remember that families died out, families' daughters out. And so sometimes you only discover very, very late in the day that you actually have quite a rare DNA signature that has managed to sneak through. That happened recently with the chairman of the Deason Plan Gathering, Michael G. Gleason, who was sitting there trying to look invisible. And he also had a bag from the Deason Plan Gathering. He was in the ungrouped, possibly adopted, section for quite a long time, until I looked closely at the snip markers of his matches. And I noticed they were all Z2-5-5, like the North Tipperary Deacons. And I thought, let's do a single snip test to be on the safe side. And he came back as Z2-5-5. I said, OK, now with the Z2-5-5 snip pack, he matched all the Gleason's and North Tipperary, but he is a genetic distance of 18 out of 37 to the other snip confirmed Gleason on the far side of the Deason Plan. 18 out of 37. And on that note, I will leave it. Thank you very much for your attention. We'll be starting now with Ed Gilbert and the Irish DNA Atlas Updates.