 Think Tech Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav, and I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going across the sea to talk with broadcast journalist Emily Chang about her recently published bestseller, Brotopia, and maybe a few related topics. And I'm going to kind of switch the roles on Emily and ask her questions, and she's going to have to answer for a change. Emily is the anchor and executive producer of the television program Bloomberg Technology. She was born and raised on Oahu. Her mother, Sandy, was a teacher in Honolulu, and her dad was the local attorney, Laban Chang. Emily is in San Francisco right now, where she lives with her husband and three children. Aloha, Emily. Glad to see you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Well, my pleasure, and thank you for making time. I know you have another show coming up, so we're going to hit some questions right off the bat and get your answers. And my first question is really two questions in one. What is Brotopia? What's the meaning of Brotopia? And what is your book about? I have read your book and I've learned a few things about it, about Brotopia, but please tell us. In my mind, perfectly encapsulate this idea of Silicon Valley as a modern utopia where anyone can change the world, break the rules if you're a man. But if you're a woman, it's incomparably harder. And it shows in the numbers. I mean, Silicon Valley women hold 25% of jobs across the industry. They represent only about 7% of venture capital investors. And companies led by women in Silicon Valley only get 2% of funding. And I hardly believe that because women have only 2% of good ideas. And so, you know, the industry has been historically very male-dominated. And that's a problem for an industry that is so influential, that is changing the world in so many ways and changing the way we live, we need to have women better represented in this world. So, Brotopia, is that your words or that a word you came up with? Is that your invention? Yeah, the book was originally called The Valley of Opportunity in my original book proposal. And my publisher about a year in said, how about Brotopia? And, you know, at the time, I thought that maybe it was a little too strong. And I've been covering Silicon Valley for, you know, seven years, and I didn't want to be run out of this place. But, you know, I think the last year has really shown, you know, that it's not an exaggeration. We've seen a lot of investors exposed for bad behavior. We've seen, you know, a brighter light shine on systemic discrimination that exists not only in Silicon Valley, but in business in general. And so, you know, I know it makes a strong statement, but I think people get what we're talking about right away. And now I love the title, and I don't think it is so much of an exaggeration. And, well, you know, how long have you been, how long did you work on the book? And why did you, I mean, why did you feel it necessary? And you knew, I mean, you obviously knew you're going to get a reaction. It's going to be a controversy. Yeah, even a half years ago now. So this was before Trump was elected, before me, too. And, you know, the representation of women in the industry has always been a problem. But it certainly could have been like a tree falling in the forest. This climate really changed over the course of my reporting. So I certainly benefited from that momentum. And I'm so grateful that the cultural conversation has made it pop like this to break through, because, you know, sexism exists everywhere. Sexual harassment exists everywhere. But in Silicon Valley, you know, this is a place where people talk about changing the world. And in many ways they have. But in this way, Silicon Valley is behind so many other industries. And I fully believe that the people who are, you know, taking us to Mars and building self-driving cars and connecting the world and hire women, pay them fairly, promote them, and fund their ideas. And the source of your information, was this your own investigation or your interviews? Or how did you, is this something that kind of played on you over time and these ideas came up? But a daily technology show where I get to interview influential people in Silicon Valley every single day. And as the years progressed, I became more bold about asking these questions. What are you doing to hire women? What are you doing to promote women? What are you doing to fund women? And sometimes the answer surprised me. In fact, there's one investor I quote in the book who said, while we're looking for more women to hire, but we're not prepared to lower our standards. And you know, there are a lot of people, a lot of companies out there that think they have to lower their standards to hire women that aren't. It was really the spark that was the fire under me to write this book. I realized this wasn't an issue that could be tackled on television that this was something that really had to be explored in greater depth. And I learned so much that surprised me that I think will surprise a lot of people about how and why we got here. And only once we understand how and why we got here can we figure out what we can do to change it. Okay. And the subtitle of your book is Breaking Up the Boys Club of Silicon Valley. And you know, I have a question. You see billions of dollars, at least to us who look at Silicon Valley and the tech industry, billions of dollars come in. What do you need to break it up for? You know, what's the answer to that? I mean, is it broken? Because look at all of the great things Silicon Valley has created. Look at Facebook. Look at Apple. Look at Google. Now, you know, the women who never got a chance to start the next Facebook or the next Google or the next Apple and how different the world might be. You know, I interviewed Evan Williams, he's the co-founder of Twitter. And he told me that he thinks if there had been more women on the early Twitter team that maybe online harassment and trolling wouldn't be such a problem. They weren't thinking about this when they were building Twitter. They were thinking about wonderful and amazing things that could be done with Twitter, not how it could be used to send rape threats or death threats or propagate abuse. And so I wonder if the internet would be a friendlier place if women had had a seat at the table 30 years ago. If porn would be so ubiquitous, if video games would be so violent, if maybe we'd have better parental control on things like YouTube. There's no way to definitively answer that question, but we shouldn't have to wait another 30 years to do so. How have the brothers and the sisters in Silicon Valley, how have they reacted to Brotopia? You know, this book would make some people uncomfortable and no good change comes without some people feeling a little uncomfortable. I'd say there certainly is a minority voice out there that doesn't understand why this is a problem, doesn't think that anything needs to change. But the vast majority of people have been very supportive, have been very responsive. And I wrote this for the majority of people who may not understand how big the problem is, but want to help or know it's a problem but don't know what to do. And I really just wanted to start a meaningful conversation. And maybe not everyone will agree with what I have to say, but hopefully they're willing to listen. And I'm willing to listen to them as well. And it is about starting a conversation and having a healthy debate so we can get to a better place. And I've been very encouraged by companies like Amazon and Microsoft and LinkedIn and Google who have invited me to speak. And they could just as easily say, you wrote a book called Brotopia, no thank you. But in fact, they're actually open to having these conversations. And I think that's really important. You know, I learned a little bit, obviously, that I didn't know. I learned a lot actually. And a lot of background and it made me think, and I've talked to some folks about this, about the background of Brotopia and how we got there. I was wondering, do you have some words of advice? How about, I know you have three children, you have a family and you live in San Francisco. What words of advice would you give to the sister who wants to have both a family and a successful career based on what you've learned and what you've written? And finding your allies and finding people who will support you. And in fact, industries like Silicon Valley, the tech industry needs incredible women, needs smart and driven women. And so I do think there's a certain amount of leaning in and speaking up that, you know, all women have to do. But on the other hand, you can't lean in if the door is nailed shut. And so there are a lot of systemic changes that need to happen in the business world. And so if you have a company, if you run a company, change starts from the top. We need CEOs and prominent investors to make this, make building diverse teams a priority. We all need to listen to each other more. Men and women, we need to mentor. We need to advocate for others. You know, if you, you know, are in a room and you see your colleague being interrupted or being mansplained or whatever explained or not getting an opportunity that you believe that perhaps they should have, say something about it. We can't always expect the victim to speak up for themselves in that moment. You know, there's a certain amount of advocation that needs to happen by everyone so that we can lift each other up. You know, I think if you're wanting to build a diverse company, this is not just about this being the right thing to do, which I believe it is. This is a smart thing to do. You know, diverse teams build better products, have better results, are more innovative, make more money. There is a business case to be had here. You don't want to miss something because there were no women in the room or no people of color. You don't want to have that blind spot. We all bring different perspectives to the table, no matter where, where we come from and those perspectives are really valuable. And that advice would go to the brothers too, right? I mean, that advice I hear you talking about, that applies to everybody, brothers and sisters, as we say here in Hawaii. Right. You know, the reality that I think that, you know, men need to go out of their way to find high potential women in their workplace and mentor them. And, you know, we can't be scared because of Me Too. I think we all know where the line is and the lines that shouldn't be crossed. And so, you know, we need to be part of this conversation together, men and women. But, you know, I do think it is incumbent on men at this point to, you know, be, you know, a more active part of this conversation. Be aware too. I'm so encouraged by the Me Too movement and the women's marches and the women speaking up louder than ever before. We need men to listen. And be aware, I guess. I mean, I think it's easy for... Absolutely. I could bring 300 pages about the problem. We can no longer say we didn't know. Maybe you're into this point. Okay. Yeah. We have a few minutes left. I know you have to go to a new show that's coming on very soon. I guess you have to get prepared for that. You have any other words that you'd like to say? I mean, I know you attended the Mark Zuckerberg congressional hearings, and you've also spoken very highly of Cheryl Sandberg at Facebook. And is that a good example? Do you have something to say about that? Testifying before Congress. You know, unfortunately, I think some of the lawmakers didn't ask the toughest questions. And it was a bit of a missed opportunity. And I do think Zuckerberg performed fairly well. But they are asking themselves some tough questions as they should. You know, they have responded. Unfortunately, in some cases, it's a little too late. Cambridge Analytica has already happened. The Russians have already meddled in the election via Facebook's platform. But that's not to say that Facebook isn't now bringing into action. And Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg have an incredible partnership, which is very unique in Silicon Valley because very few women have cracked or shattered the glass ceiling as Cheryl Sandberg has. What's interesting about their partnership is that Mark made as much space for Cheryl as she made for him. And they really do bring different perspectives and different skill sets to the table. They both have some hard questions to answer right now about how Facebook is going to continue to leverage our personal information for monetary gains. And I think that Facebook, rightfully, has had a bit of a wake-up call. Not as a result of any bad intentions, but as a result of the evolution of technology. And I do think that Facebook is a perfect example of why we need different perspectives of people, men and women, people of color, people from around the world to be building these companies, because they are so incredibly powerful. And you mentioned I have three children. This matters because Silicon Valley is only changing our lives more every day. And facial recognition technology is already to a certain extent sexist and racist and doesn't recognize women and people of color as easily as it does white men. And these technologies are only going to become more influential. So this is an industry that needs change simply because of the power it has over our lives and over the next generation. And as I said earlier, I'm optimistic. I don't think I could have written this book if I didn't have hope. I'm optimistic that the industry will change and will improve. And that the products and services that we all use every day will be better as a result of it. Okay, Emily, I think we have one minute left. And I just would like to ask, is there anything about Hawaii that you brought to your business and your understanding and to your work that you'd like to tell us about? And the companies that I bring on to this show, and I think that's so important when you are a reporter and you are telling stories and sharing them with the world. And I'm sure part of that has to do with growing up in such a wonderful and inclusive place. And, you know, Hawaii is in a way, it's a great model of so many wonderful and colorful cultures coming together. And I think that's probably part of the reason that I've always been interested in this topic and why I believe diversity of thought is so important. Well, Emily, thank you very much for your time. Good to meet you. I look forward to you coming over back to Hawaii someday. And I also have to thank your auntie for getting us together. So, aloha. Still there. So thank you so much and aloha.