 Okay, we're back. We're live. Energy 808. The Cutting Edge. Exciting on a Monday at noon. And we have Mina Morita. She joins us by VoIP, that's voiceover internet protocol from Kauai. Am I right about that, Mina? You are in Kauai, aren't you? I'm sitting at home in Honolay Valley, Kauai. Ah, we wish you were there with you. We'll have to engineer a show where we all go to Kauai and sit with you. Yeah, we could sit in the backyard and enjoy the view. Yeah, yeah. My wife is from Kauai. I know exactly what you mean. Anyway, so the last time I saw you, which was only two weeks ago, was at the Energy Policy Forum Steering Committee meeting under Sheryl and We, the new leader, if you will, of the Energy Policy Forum. And that's why we're going to talk about the Energy Policy Forum today. It's there's a certain new departure going on. And I thought we'd take at least part of this show, Mina, to talk about the origins of the Energy Policy Forum back in 2002. That's 16 years ago. And you were there. You were one of the founding members. I really wanted to hear the story. Can you tell us the story? Well, the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum started in 2002. And it was, I think, originally funded by Hawaii Electric Company, giving a grant to the Social Science Institute at the University of Hawaii to do to do this collaborative experiment in bringing stakeholders together to develop energy policy. And I think the forum has always had about 30 to 40 participants. And it was a real critical time because the energy situation in Hawaii needed to be examined closely. And there wasn't any real energy constituency out there. Basically, you had the electric utility and people suspect especially of Hawaiian Electric because Hawaiian Electric had some major issues that were being challenged on different islands. Oh, yeah, it wasn't there. There was Wahila Ridge, which was a big controversy over a power line over that ridge. And that was happening at the same time, wasn't it? Right. So you basically had Wahila Ridge. You had the Kea'o Hole plant on the big island on the west side of Hawaii being built. And on Maui, I recall it so slow. They were looking at building new power generation in the, I think it was the Maalaya area, which the community opposed and wanted more focus on renewable generation at time. And so this was in the late 1990s. So basically, on three islands, you had major challenges for Hawaiian Electric and its subsidiaries and opposition by the public, and especially with Wahila Ridge, where several key legislation on overhead lines were being proposed. And the other big issue on Oahu was Kamoku-Pukele transmission line, which is somewhat related to Wahila too. Yeah, well power, power has always been a challenge, you know. I got here in the fall of 1965. That's when I got here. And one of the big things that really was interesting was the big island, about half of it, the southern half of the big island, had no power. No power. Yeah. And that was in the early, again, the 90s, where they had rolling blackout, rolling brownouts on the big island. And that was something else that, you know, had stirred the pot earlier. And, you know, I believe it was one of the reasonings why they were looking at building the Keohole power plant. Yeah, so the energy policy forum gets in there. And I guess, correct me, but the big issue with the outset was, is there room in this landscape for renewable energy, for green energy? Yes or no? Should we do anything in green energy? Or should we not do anything in green energy? Am I right about that? Right. I mean, you know, the importance of the energy policy forum is you were bringing together a larger group, stakeholders, together to define a combination for energy as we move forward. You know, rather than just participating through the utility IRP process or something like that, you know, how do we get people on board to work for the common vision? Yeah, and people, people includes an awful lot of stakeholders. She was saying before the show, the forum has always had 30, 40, a one point almost 50 stakeholders, but the stakeholders are very diverse. You get you get the refineries have been a stakeholder since the beginning, you get the utility. You get activist groups have been stakeholders get industry in general. Go ahead. I mean, there are more. I know there are more. And they're every walk of life. Well, you know, in this, you know, you had renewable energy developers as part of the independent power producers group. You know, like you said, there were there were community activists that wanted to see a different vision for Hawaii. And, you know, because of our energy system in Hawaii and how the refineries were developed and why they were developed and their what dictated their output. I mean, that was a careful synergistic sort of system that you have to approach carefully because, you know, you, you do one thing. You might have unintended consequences. So all of these issues have to be thought out in a real careful, deliberative way, as well as controlling costs as you as you move forward. So I saw the forum as a not only bringing together these important, diverse interest in defining a common energy vision, but also making sure that the information you had was well developed based, in fact, on good economic practices as well as environmental practices. Yeah, I think even from the outset, it was it was a forum in the fullest sense. From the outset, and even now today, it's actually it's embedded in the University of Hawaii in the Public Policy Center, as it should be because this is a very important area of public policy. You know, the idea is you have to bring everybody together on something that affects everybody. There's nobody who's exempt from the effect of public policy on energy. We are all touched by it, sometimes profoundly. Business and residential all alike. So that was that was really interesting. Now, just to dwell on you for a minute, you were in the legislature at the time. I was the chairman of the Energy and Environmental Protection Committee, and you know, in the early the first couple years of my committee, it was really hard because there wasn't a cohesive energy voice out there. And there was so much to learn. And so, you know, the reports that were developed, the viewpoints that were agreed upon by the Hawaii Energy Policy was really instrumental in taking the first step towards cleaner energy future. You know, it was, you know, we as you know, we mentioned earlier, this is a collaborative effort. And so a lot of stuff was consensus building. And so people might see this as baby steps, but these were very fundamental baby steps moving forward. Yeah. And you can't you can't only see it in light of turning around and looking back, you have to see it in light of the way things were at the time. There was not a whole lot of photovoltaic out there. There wasn't a lot of green energy out there. No, you know, basically you had the electricity as some monopoly calling all the shops. And you hardly had any independent power producers at that time, you know. And so it really was a key way to look at energy issues comprehensively. And you know, like one of the first things that the policy forum did was try to identify all the barriers in moving towards clean energy. You know, one of the things that we had to do as a stakeholder group in describing our common vision was to make sure that our vocabulary was consistent, that when we talked about certain ideals or concepts that, you know, we were talking about the same thing. So a lot of stuff we did was fundamental. But early on, I think when the major issues that they did was find out what are the barriers and really delving into the taxation and regulatory construct of energy. Yeah. And just to take a look at those times that the landscape in which this happened, the PUC in those days was simply regulating the utility. And energy that you bought for your house was being generated, for the most part, nearly all by diesel oil. And there was really not a whole lot that the PUC was doing in those days to deal with the possibility of green energy. And it was as it had been for 100 years. Everything was still kind of 100 years old. And for that matter, the utility company was about 100 years old, too. So we were still living in another chapter back in those times. But what I think is worth mentioning is that deep in the culture of the Energy Policy Forum, as it was established 16 years ago, is the notion of consensus. You were there. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So consensus building is awfully hard. I mean, you have to go in and build consensus. And part of that building of consensus is educating people. So bringing in diverse viewpoints, having these critical discussions, because if we didn't achieve consensus, the issue wouldn't move forward. That actually has worked over the years. I mean, that happened to be an inspired design point. You could say, well, we could have votes. We could make resolutions and vote for them and see what the majority feel in a voting environment. But the forum never did that. The forum always held onto the notion is, yes, we can be friends. We may disagree. And we try to convince each other of a given proposition. But we don't need to actually have a vote. I always, when I came into it, which was, oh gosh, in the late, well, I guess around 2008 or 2009, I was really amazed that that could happen. I mean, you wonder about consensus. People criticize Hawaii for too much seeking consensus. But in fact, it has worked, hasn't it? It has worked. And I think, you know, especially for these kinds of issues, which are multifaceted and very complex, I mean, it really takes effort from people who may not have the same views to at the end come together and say, yes, I could live with this. And it's all a function of good faith and good will. And in the same notion, you know, we're going to take a one minute break now. That's Meena Merida from a chair of the PUC and a founding member of the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. We'll be right back and we'll go further into modern times after this break. Hey, Stan Energyman here on Think Tech Hawaii. And they won't let me do political commentary. So I'm stuck doing energy stuff, but I really like energy stuff. So I'm going to keep on doing it. So join me every Friday on Stan Energyman at lunchtime, at noon on my lunch hour. We're going to talk about everything energy, especially if it begins with the word hydrogen. We're going to definitely be talking about it. We'll talk about how we can make Hawaii cleaner, how we can make the world a better place. Just basically save the planet. Even Miss America can't even talk about stuff like that anymore. We got it nailed down here. So we'll see you on Friday at noon with Stan Energyman. Aloha. Hi, I'm Dave Stevens, the host of Cyber Underground every Friday here at 1pm on ThinkTechHawaii.com. And then every episode is uploaded to the Cyber Underground, that library of shows that you can see of mine on YouTube.com. And I hope you'll join us here every Friday. We have some topical discussions about why security matters and what could scare the absolute bejesus out of you. If you just try to watch my show all the way through. Hope to see you next time on Cyber Underground. Stay safe. Okay, we're back. We're live on Energy 808, the cutting edge here on ThinkTech on Monday at noon. And our special guest is Meena Morita. She's actually a co-host of this show. And she's a former chair of the PUC. And more than that, she was the chair of the Energy Committee in the state house for many years. And she was a founder of the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum in 2002 when we're ruminating about that now. And during the break, you know, we're talking about going down memory lane, how interesting it is to look back and see yourself in the context of historical events which happened over the past 16 years, Meena. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people, this is such inside baseball, though. A lot of people don't know, you know, the backstory to how some of these legislation was formed and the reason behind it and stuff. And yeah, there's a lot of backstory here. Well, I'm saying during the break that, you know, a lot of our progress, and we have had progress, we had remarkable progress during the period from then until now, was a function of the fact that you were there. You were a founding member of the forum. And at the same time, you were the chair of the Energy Committee in the house. This had to have a huge effect on both sides of that equation. It helped the forum because they had, you know, a person in the house who sympathized with them, a kind of advocate, a kind of a connection. And then on the house side, the house had you sitting on the forum, which was an educational experience for everyone, and which was an organization trying to deal in, you know, evidence-based public policy. So wow, you were the greatest connection they could have had. It must have been interesting to- You know what? At that time, the legislature was just one part of a larger kind of system, ecosystem that had key people in key places that were moving the ball in the same direction. Myself at the legislature and on the Senate side, we had Senator Kalani English that was instrumental too. In the state energy office, we had Maurice Kaya, who, you know, has been putting heart and soul- Oh yeah, very instrumental in development of energy in Hawaii. Maurice Kaya. And then on the research and development side, you had someone like Rick Roschlow who now was coordinating all of the research money that were coming to the state. And a lot of it was airmarked through Senator Inouye at that time, but really thinking strategically on how this research money should be spent. And so you had, and then, you know, you also had Carlito Calaboso at the Lingo administration for a while that was willing to delve into some really thorny regulatory issues. Yeah, he was your predecessor on the PUC. Yeah. And so, you know, it wasn't just me and the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, but all of us together, you know, research money, energy policy through the state energy office. You know, my counterpart on the Senate side, the PUC willing to delve into some regulatory issues, all of this was in play at the same time. And it was very exciting. Oh, yeah. What's interesting is that the people you just named, and we'll touch the more of them, you know, largely is still around. They're still involved in maybe in different roles in energy. In different roles, and we were all members of the Energy Policy Forum. Yeah, it has been the center. But let's take a moment and talk about Sharon Moriwaki and Mike Hamnet. You were there when they got to be the co-chairs, I mean, successfully, the co-chairs of the Energy Policy Forum. How did that happen? What was the, you know, series of events that led to their involvement as co-chairs? I think, again, you know, I wasn't a founding person of the organization. I just was a member that participated since the beginning. But I believe the story is that Hawaiian Electric approached Mike and said, you know, we've got to look at how we develop energy policy differently, and how we can engage better. And as, you know, we've talked about before, Hawaiian Electric was under the gun, right? With all of these controversial projects on every single island, almost throughout the system, the service territory, you know, being opposed. And so they were looking for a better way to work with the community and stakeholders in the development of energy policy. So I believe they went to Social Science Institute with funding and a proposal and say, going to Sharon and Mike and, you know, help us do policies differently, the development of policies differently. And that developed into the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. Yeah. And the rest is history. I mean, so many events, so many things, so many companies that came and went, some of them went. So many initiatives, so much legislation, so much betting of legislation over these past 16 years. And then Sharon decides she wants to run for office. And she runs for the state senate. I guess she couldn't resist it. She's really a perfect senator, in my opinion. And she won the primary and now she's looking for the general election. And she's no longer, she can no longer be the co-chair of the Energy Policy Forum. So we are in a new chapter. Can you describe how that is evolving, Meena? The, I guess, Social Science Institute went out looking for a new convener for the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. And recently hired Shirley Lee, who, I believe she's an economist by profession. She's a PhD economist, yes. Yeah. And she, for a short time, worked for the Consumer Advocates Office. Yes. And now is back at the University of Hawaii. So I think her position is part-time convener for the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. And she also teaches. Yeah. She's a member of the faculty there, yeah. Right. So this is, and I suppose that was a case with Sharon Moriwaki, who was, had a law degree and a degree in public policy as well. So it was a perfect fit. And this is a continuation of the same connection between the convener, if you will, and the Public Policy Center. And I guess the chair of the Public Policy Center now these days is our old friend Colin Moore, who we've had on the show many times, and who is an expert on Hawaii Public Policy and Politics. So there have been meetings. This is going forward. The standard calendar pattern over the past several years that I'm aware of has been a legislative briefing for the members of the legislature. Legislature interested in energy in January, just before the session starts every year, every single year. And also an energy day program in the summertime to bring out the community and have the community brief the public on what is going on. And both of those are an opportunity to gather and to exchange ideas. And finally, there's been a lot of outreach, which I think is a significant, a central part of the energy policy forum, as it has been for a long time, including making movies on network TV, making of these talk shows with us for several years, where we introduce members of the community, the energy community to each other, and have them share ideas. And we have them reveal their thoughts and their points of view to the public in general. And I think it's really been very valuable. So the question is, where does it go from here in terms of these initiatives that the policy forum has been interested in, including vetting of bills, by the way, over all these years? Where does it look like it's going to you, Mina? I don't know. And that's why the forum is meeting in another month. And to have this discussion with its members, no, we have new leadership now. And as with everything else, you know, you have to kind of relook your objective and kind of reevaluate the organization. And we will be going through that process. Like I said, in about a month. And I think that's really healthy. Because especially the energy situation in Hawaii, nothing is static. And, you know, I just want to point out, you know, just a small thing. You know, for over a decade, you know, our focus has been on renewable energy. But when we talk about renewable energy, it's so limiting, you know, you know, we forget all of the other components to an energy ecosystem that are just as important. And so I think this is a good time to, you know, have those kinds of discussions about, you know, how do we move forward and think about energy in broader terms? Because, you know, no matter what, you know, the ultimate goal is emissions reduction. You know, and definitely renewable energy plays an important role in that. But there are other ways that also lend itself to emissions reduction. And we have to be aware of all of these components and act on all of these components and not be focused on one single issue, thinking it's the panacea. Yeah, and as you said before, you know, it's always in change. And the world is always in change. The economy is always in change. The way we live together in these islands, whether we realize it or not, it's always in change. And so energy must, it must be evaluated and re-evaluated from a public policy point of view all the time so we can invent and test and invent the best possible arrangement for energy and therefore the economy. Anyway, I'll be there with you, you know, watching and participating and enjoying the delicious issues that come up in and with the energy policy forum. And in any event, I'll see you in two weeks from today where we will continue this discussion. Hopefully we'll have Marco back again and it will be Marco, Mina and me or Mina, Marco and me for more of the same. Thank you so much, Mina Maria. Aloha. Thank you, Jake. Take care. Aloha. Aloha.