 Thank you very much for keeping it why in the morning my name is Ram Maguko. You're just in time for the next conversation of the day. Now today it's all about discussing national values. As we talk about national values, we want to find out why is it that we talk about this. Are they enshrined in the constitution? What are the articles that are particularly mentioning national values in the constitution? We shall talk about why we have the national values in the constitution and where particularly they are. Do we have within the constitution any solutions to Kenya's current problems in regards to national values? Joining me I'm with Edward Nyongesa Afula. He is the acting director at the national directorate of national cohesion and values from the ministry of interior and coordination of national government. I'm with Edward Nyongesa. I'm sure that you participate with us. Thank you for finding time. It's a pleasure. Hope you have a good morning as well. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Kwaituwe. Sayin, I come from the Directorate of National Coefficient Values, which I said, some may not know that we are domiciled in the Minister of Interior and we are responsible for the government agenda on national values and principles of governance mainstreaming. Coming back to the question of national values, before I get to why the constitution, I think broadly the world is becoming a global village. We say we are all connected and related very easily in a short way. And therefore in a village we have homes and naturally you'll find certain homes, people want to go to certain places and not others because of what is in this home, who is in that home. And therefore in this world global village we are looking at Kenya as a home among many other homes and therefore we want to position this home as the home to go to when you want fellowship, when you want to sell, when you want to buy. Yeah, yeah, as the home to be. He is the home to be in that village. And so the drafters of the constitution had this in mind that Kenya is part of the world community of nations and how are we perceived, how are we relating on this. And so we look inwardly and look at ourselves and would want to turn out in a manner that will be very competitive for the world market. And therefore in the drafting of the constitution looking at positioning ourselves as a country where investors would want to go to, where people who are looking for excellence would want to go to people you want, people you can trust, you want to recruit from values were seen as a critical element of our being as a society. And there are four things that informed the inclusion of values in the constitution. One was to create a national identity for the people and the population of Kenya. A national identity and to exercise our sovereignty in a manner that feeds the picture that we want to be. So we are saying as a people, how do people outside Kenya perceive us? What is our identity and identity is not just the name. It goes further than a name to look at the character of the persons, the attributes, the way they relate to one another, the confidence. How they even treat each other, how they relate. So the values are intended to create a people that fit the description that is provided in the values. So this national values enshran in the constitution we are looking into offering solutions to current problems. Yes, as far as number one, our outlook is and you know your outlook is a product of what is inside of you. What you believe in especially is what you will say and what you will end up doing. That is number one. Number two, the values are in the constitution to help us and help Kenyans and every person resident in Kenya to realize the bill of rights, which are the basic legal and civil rights of every citizen in terms of how they relate to one another and relate to the state. We will be talking about some of this. Quite a lot of those values touch on the exercise and enjoyment of the bill of rights for the citizens. Number three, why we have national values in the constitution is in order for us to have good governance. In governance here we are looking at how do we manage the resources that we have vis-a-vis our national aspirations and our national goals of development. Where is, how are we benefiting the citizens in this country? So the values will guide us in exercising good governance and lastly, number four, in order for us to have sustainable development and government exists and even citizens will be looking at attaining certain expectations in terms of growth economically, socially, politically and then as we enjoy this development in the current time and dispensation we must not compromise the generations that come hereafter and we can only attain this when we have values that guide us that we are not eating at the expense of the generations that come later. So basically those four informed why they need to put those values in the constitution. Now looking at this particular constitution the Kenyan constitution now specifically are there any constitutional provisions of these national values because now as they exist the various articles of the constitution that speak on national values what are they, what do they include just to mention but a few. National values are mentioned many times in many places in the constitution if we begin from the preambo which is the opener in the preambo the drafters talking about we the people of Kenya giving unto ourselves this constitution then it states down there that recognizing the aspirations of the people of Kenya we are looking at the preambo in which Kenyans recognize the aspirations for a government based on the essential values of human rights, equality, freedom, democracy, social justice and the rule of law. That's detailed. That's the aspirations we are just talking about the people of Kenya aspire this is the dream of the Kenyan citizen and you've really mentioned that word aspirations aspirations are talking about the dreams the vision that Kenyans have what kind of society we want to have that must be driven or build with national values at the core and do you think we have really worked on that when we talk about human rights equality, freedom, democracy social justice and the rule of law it's a journey Ram the realization of that aspiration is a journey I'm happy we are ready on this the journey if it hasn't started we have started this we have started the journey of a thousand miles begin with one step we have done more than a step in this case for us as Kenyans first of all having made that declaration having documented it in our constitution further than that having set up infrastructure and I'm talking about the institutions responsible setting up institutions responsible like ourselves we have commissions and like we will be talking about that again in the constitution and we have already begun this conversation when you come through the government operations we will be talking about this later on every year there is a report on the progress that has been realized which the president gives to the nation we outline a number of things that we have done so on this journey we may not have attained what we want in terms of basic rights in terms of enjoyment of those privileges for every citizen but we are on this journey and we will not quit until we get to where we ought to be as per the inspirations that Kenyans have so we are talking about constitutional provisions on national values and it starts all the way from the preamble heading over to the different attitudes now when it comes to article 4 which is now in the chapter on the Republic of Kenya a declaration of the Republic of Kenya it says that Kenya shall be a multi-party democracy founded on the values the Republic of Kenya shall be a multi-party democratic state founded on the national values and principles of governance referred to in article 10 that is a declaration again for the Republic of Kenya that is how we will be founded on the national values and principles of governance which we will be outlining in article 10 so that this is how we will be and this is what we will guide and a lot of you talked about how far we have got if you have listened to court rulings in the recent past even the judiciary any violation of these provisions have attracted punishment we have seen people punished even among the rulings you will see they are cited you violated this section of the constitution on national values so they are beginning because like we said in the first discussion that national values are the principle the main beliefs of our people that guide how we relate how we do our business and among the business we are doing is governing ourselves so that is how it is that these values guide and that's why the declaration of the Republic shall be multi-party democracy one founded on national values and principles of governance that outline to the constitution and based on this we can even conclude or depict one particular idea that these national values started being promoted back then when Kenya was getting its independence we are looking at when Kenya became a multi-party state because we are saying that Kenya shall be a multi-party democratic state so it means it didn't just start now we started promoting these national values when we started promoting the multi-party democracy yes and no is that true to analyze it yes and no yes in terms of multi-party because at independence we had a multi-party democratic arrangement later on it became a de facto one party until 1992 when multi-party is rain reduced but in terms of national values the national values are not new in themselves exactly they have existed as cultural values they have existed as religious values they have existed as community values some of these have like the Bill of Rights a lot of it are universal rights exercised and observed internationally but having them documented and outlined as national values for us as Kenyans that begins with the constitution of Kenya 2010 interesting so this is an amalgamation and a realization that going back a little bit in our history given our experience in early 2008 following the disputed presidential result that is when it came as a wake up call for us in Kenya that we take our nationhood for granted a small trigger like that is agreement a cluster flare up over our expressions and people were up in arms against each other for no reason that pointed to an underlying problem that we have been brooding over since independence our nationhood the fabric that holds us was missing so that is why now in the constitution 2010 coming after the experience that I just mentioned the drafters found it necessary for us to look internally you know we have done so much in terms of our hardware we put up good infrastructure we do mega development projects but we have forgotten to work on our networks our diversity celebrating and harnessing the strength that is in our diversity as a Kenyan so that's why now the proposal that we now have national values and we clearly define who we are like I said earlier to shape the identity of the Kenyan person which is not superficial like stated like done but felt in the heart because its values must be believed you know we cannot enforce values like you would the regulations which say do, do not, do not values are a matter of believing you instill into someone instilling is the word and instilling is a conviction that indeed this is right this is okay so it will not be overnight but as we continue talking about this as we continue rewarding and putting boundaries for ourselves and holding ourselves to account we will end up now then gravitating towards but unless we stated like it stated in the constitution of Kenya 2010 that these are the national values then we know this is what we are and we begin telling ourselves and telling our children through the curriculum through other avenues that we have for each sector then we begin to define and know who we are and we hope that over time we are beginning to gravitate and to change and become the people we have declared ourselves to be in that article 4 and remember to those watching remember we were talking about constitutional provisions on national values and from home based on your perception are there constitutional provisions on national values do they exist are you aware of any or are you aware of none you can ask those questions we had a conversation before we went on air but things are still in my head the hashtag is why in the morning at Ramaguka and at Y254 channel ensure they engage with us in regards to this particular conversation I shall mention just a few articles and then you can be able to talk about them let's go to article 132 1 Patzi of the constitution and I remember you mentioned it here when we started and it's in this article 132 which provides that the president shall each that shall once every year report in an address to the nation on all the measures taken and the progress achieved in the realization of national values referred to in article 10 the president is further required to publish in the Kenya Gazette the details of the report let's dispense of that particular issue first and that is important like I said we did not have these values before in 2010 and like was defined previously when we talk about nation of values they are the beliefs of a people they are part of a culture that we ought to be but in 2010 we were not and up to now largely we are not exactly those values that we have said we have agreed that we are on that journey we are on a journey so the drafters realizing the gap that we ought to have been from 1963 which we are not then we must do something to get to where we are because we are having challenges we must work overdrive and nothing less than committing the head of state the president with the responsibility of driving the agenda of values that's why in article 131 132 that 132 commits the president that every year so that we take stock so that we don't lose out the president is expected constitutionally to state to report in an address to the nation the measures that have been put in place to realize this nation of values and what progress have been realized so every year we are not forgetting it we are not glosing over this matter we have to keep reminding ourselves and therefore because the president must report then he must cause action as the head of government so if the president reports to gives a report in an address to the nation how is it done what is the role of the different institutions in building up towards that report now and luckily our directorate is the agents responsible for collecting and I would say here the approach we have taken is to mainstream promotion of nation of values within government through the performance contracting platform every year each government agency commits to attain certain milestones in their area of deployment by their mandate we have succeeded to get all of them commit on certain targets of nation of values because they are mainstreamed so every agency of government of public we do agree on what will be the target in this year kaskedat to all government agencies and they commit to implement those measures within their areas of operation it begins at the beginning of every financial year every financial year so at the end of the year while they are reporting if you are responsible for the agricultural sector crop production in the crop production sector nation of values can be mainstreamed and do this is when you are talking to farmers about the best practices in banana production that opportunity can be mainstreamed where we can bring in nation of values of good governance of social justice they can see how this growing of these bananas is helping us attain a certain value within that setup and we document these measures each sector documents and the sectors always at the end of the year they give us a report in this sector this is what we did and this is how far we have gone in terms of awareness creation this is what we have done and this is the number that we have reached out so we collect all this data and enable the president once every year we place the following measures and they are documented and there is evidence to that effect so that is what is done every year we do have measures being implemented and that is documented the president reports when you have seen the state of the nation address every time the president reports that is what part of what he does the state of the nation address is about nation of values he says my government put in place what has been realized and it's quantified either the quantity of what has been done in contributing towards the realization of those national values and it's gazetted you can see it in the Kenya Gazette any person can access to evaluate and see indeed what it is that was done this is something that you just can't cook you cannot cook if you come to us again we have our evidence we make reports from institutions to say this is what we have done and we believe you you have to give us a proof a proof that indeed you did this then we would collaborate that and that's what we document the president talks about facts powerful keeping the nation accountable indeed according to the constitution and it is published in the Kenya Gazette these particular details you should be looking forward to the next report the last report because of COVID the last report was given in November when the president addressed the joint sitting of the house we do hope that the next one should be coming out anytime now we are just waiting for confirmation of the debt but that should be anytime around this time so the president keeps us in check say president your government should do this he gives a report of what the government has done yes every year there are certain mentions that are put in place interesting and the question is did you know that that is in the constitution that the president must give a report according to article 132 1 of the constitution let's talk about article 174 yes which provides for objects and principles of devolved governments now our system of government is a devolved government and it's not enough to commit the president because directly is responsible for while he's the head of the national government he has oversight over devolved units the devolved units need also to link into what the national agenda is so that's why in the objects of the devolved government the intention is to promote national values and here we are talking about democratic principles and we are talking about accountable exercise of power which is one of the values accountable exercise of power why did we have devolution in the object they say created in order to promote the values of the democratic process and therefore the people who are exercising power at the devolved unit do so accountable to the people and number two it's also to promote national unity and we will be seeing this again when we come to talk about among the challenges that have affected our nationhood international unity and the feelings of marginalization and regional imbalance so the spirit behind devolution is to equitably spread out resources and therefore jump start development everywhere across the country and this is what will foster national unity in the sense that we all feel included we all feel fair share of what is due to us as citizen of this country and therefore that way devolution will contribute to two things accountable exercise of devolved or democratic power and inspire national unity from all across the country so if we are looking at the county governments yes so you have to let have meetings the county governments have reports from their end and ensure that they are accountable at is that the case not really it's not like the constitution spirit of the constitution is that the national and county governments shall work collaboratively exactly they are independent in their own way but as far as we will not ask them or demand that they do this we just following up the better what would be for us like the national government working with the county governments to enhance their capacity especially in terms of tracking realization of national values and for this case at the county level the county public service board according to the county government act have that responsibility of driving the national values agenda so our point of entry will be specifically the county public service board who are in charge of the human resource at the county level and therefore working with them to infuse national values at county level just in tandem with what is happening at the national level we do hope so far we have not many of them have impressed giving us this reports but we are happy that a number of county governments have already started so far I think we have about 10 who have who are on board and we are working to increase this base that we get more county governments participating in this because we are only having national values entrenched when all sectors of this government of this nation including county governments are on board and are contributing because a lot of resources are being expanded at county levels but you can say it's being impressed at the county level ok let's look at another article article 234 to H which requires the public service commission to evaluate and report to the president and parliament on the extent of which the values and principles referred to in article 10 and 22 and 232 are complied with in the public service this 234 should be seen together with 232 232 is about values and principles of public service article 10 is about nation of values and principles of governance that cut across values and principles of the public service and in 234 we are talking about the mandate of the public service commission the human resource engine of the Republic of Kenya they are responsible for mainstreaming the public values and principles of the public service in 234 that you've just read we are looking at them evaluating the extent to which public officers are complying with those values and principles of the public service and the nation of values in article 10 those who hold these offices yes so they do every year do an evaluation that means they will visit every office and with the national values values and principles of the public service in mind demand to know to what extent have you complied with this values and principles of the public service we will be talking about prudent use of resources accountability they are specific to the public service the values of article 10 like we will be seeing later we will be talking about our Kenyanis we are talking about patriotism we are talking about patriotism national unity and we are saying all this must be complied with in the public service because the public service must take lead because these institutions are funded by the state so the Kenyan public will want to see this example being set in terms of how the public service conduct themselves because members of the public will come to these institutions to get service they must demand accountability they must demand to see the values exhibited by these institutions and that is why it is the responsibility of the public service commission to evaluate and would want to see this progressively getting better that the public sector is complying with those values and principles as outlined is it that because we are talking about now public service and these are offices in relations to how they relate to the 19 inch who comes there that is exactly what it is that when they are coming or when public agencies are exercising their mandate are they adhering to the values and principles because if we want to change society we are talking about transforming ourselves into values society that transformation will come when consistency what is written in the constitution is what is practically seen that when you go to the office you can see those constitutional values and this goes hand in hand with how you treat that person who has come to your office how do you relate with them what language do you use communication do you communicate do the public know what is happening here are they satisfied with your services those are the kind of things that you want to look at and do you care that they are not satisfied maybe if you get feedback do you ever listen and what do you do when you get that feedback so we want to see continuous improvement in terms of reformation that this is what we did and they did not agawel with the public altered in this manner to accord with what the public expects of us sometimes are you even in office when they need to see you that is the kind of question you want to see interesting indeed let's go to another article wow there are so many article 249.1 b which provides the objects of the commissions and the independent offices to secure the observance of democratic values and principles by all state organs that is established in the constitution of Kenya 2010 we have Chapter 15 about commissions and independent offices they were established so in this case the values there is an aspect of governance and accountability which the commissions are supposed to drive we look at the independent offices we were looking at centralizing everything would be a problem so the commissions help counter why are they established to enhance service delivery exactly look at the I'll give you an example CAJ Commission for Administrative Justice that agency is established purely as the ombudsman to listen to feedback from members of the public and the experience they get from the public institutions responsible for discharging services whenever there is dissatisfaction what do they do the members of the public have a redress mechanism they can go to that agency and say I went to this office and I was not served like I expected according to what that institution is established to do and then that commission will then take up the matter and try to establish redress so that the service required is delivered and the correction is done where the mistake was met so we are talking about promoting the values of accountability in the public service I want us to move quickly at the Colten now we've mentioned it after constitution my brother get that constitution read it so that when we read as we read this you can also check to see whether what we are saying is true why in the morning is the hashtag at Ram Maguko at Y24 channel keep commenting I'm seeing so many tweets already on our Twitter handle which are sampled there as we proceed let's head over to article 10 now I'll talk about two parts here article 10 one and then 10 two we will touch on later let's start with article 10 one which states that the national values and principles of governance bind all state organs and this is interesting parts it binds all state organs state officers public officers and all persons whenever any of them applies or interprets the constitution and max applies or interprets any law or makes or implements public policy decisions I think that section of the constitution says the context the context who do these national values apply to and that is important because if that was not expressly stated there was a possibility of some sector that is saying those ones do not affect you see it too that's not for me so it says clearly that the national values that are outlined in that article apply to all state organs all then it says all public all state officers and public officers officers now that's where it begins because that's the responsibility the order is also important though eventually it will say all persons but we began with state organs because that's where the highest responsibility lies so these it regards to hierarchy now because state organs we are talking about beginning from the presidency we are talking about state officers we are talking about in here we are looking at cabinet secretaries we are talking about holders of constitutional officers those are the state officers the chief justice the national assembly members of parliament those are state officers they are bound by those the national values then it comes down to public officers now you are coming to civil servants you are talking of staff you are talking of staff in all other government agencies public officers so if at all you never knew who public officers are who state officers are and what state organs are today we have told you what they are now you know then it says and all persons that means now you may not be a state officer you may not be a public officer you may not be an employee of any of this but you are a person all persons so that you are bound by these national values that we are seeing and then it goes on to say in what all persons so those are the persons in which area it says whenever any of them interprets or applies or interprets the constitution then it goes to interprets or applies laws here we are talking about legislative bills and acts that are processed which will give a mandate the constitution is the major law but we have laws made by our parlaments and our county assemblies so whenever you as a legislator you are developing a form of legislation it must be in line with the values so anything that is in parliament it must be it must be in line with the national values and even county assemblies whenever they are legislating they must measure with the national values sit in line with the national values national values are the SI units of legislation guiding principles and then it says so that is in terms of legislating of developing so it also says whenever you are applying now when you are applying the constitution and applying the law it is both sides as an enforcer or as a service a service provider or a person who benefits from the service because as a citizen you can invoke the requirements of law to demand your right now this law says this and this is what I should get so it must be both ways when somebody is as an officer you are enforcing a law and when as a citizen of this country you are benefitting from that law it must be in line with the national values and principles of governance so you can see that it is all touching essence of that constitutional beat is to clarify so that we see if you just said all in what sense in what sense so that provides the answer to that yes we must somehow all but your office is not connected to my office and that's how Kenyans can be doji that's how Kenyans can be doji but now we can understand now it's clearer that even the common Bananji on the ground is bound all Kenyans are bound by this now that was article 10-1 let's talk about 10-2 which highlights the national values of governance as follows patriotism national unity sharing and devolution of power the rule of law democracy participation of the people human dignity equity there are so many social justice inclusiveness which has been a conversation equality human rights non-discrimination protection of the marginalized good governance integrity transparency accountability yes I think that I think this is a low conversation that's going to be a very detailed discussion perhaps going forward what I can say for now is in reference to what I said at the beginning we were saying why did we need to have national values in the constitution I pointed out that 4 things informed this 4 reasons they need for us to create a national identity now you will notice that the first 5 set of values speak to the kind of people Kenya ought to be about identity the aspect of patriotism national unity the aspect of observance of the rule of law the aspect of devolved and sharing so that attribute which is very African sharing and devolution of power they speak to the identity the kind of person who a Kenyan is then you will see that the following set will be talking about exercise and enjoyment of the bill of rights so that all of a sudden will be talking about now who what are the basic rights of Kenyans the state is responsible for you know that's what the bill of rights is this is what basic human life aspect of dignity the aspect of social justice you will see that this need to be put in place and is the responsibility of all of us like the constitution said in the first part that we are bound by this if there is anything that one can do as an investor for example and we have very many Kenyans who are able to excel in the private sector you have set up a factory in a place and it's doing very well so this nation of values will come in in terms of social justice you have made a profit in this area how have the people who live around your place benefited from your being here even just by putting security lights outside or just maintaining the road that comes to your facility so that as you bring in your raw material on this good road the residents and people who live around there can also have the comfort of pleasure of using that facility or perhaps just assisting the school next to your institution with textbooks or with some infrastructure or classroom so we are talking about those values again coming into play even for you as a private investor not just saying government must do this and as a private citizen you have ideas you are mindful of your community instead of just sitting back and saying you can mobilize your neighbors and together you can address a matter that will improve the well-being of your people just with the little resources that you can get in that community without waiting say this is the responsibility of government but as a citizen you have a responsibility to contribute because this sharing the value of sharing will drive you to say we are beneficiaries it's our lives that we are talking about what can we do to get our children to school why would you be happy when your neighbors kids don't go to school and you are just there we've really touched on a lot and here we've talked about the solutions that have been have come up due to these articles in the constitution I want us to just wrap it up but as we do that maybe you can tell me now that we are where we are have you seen how are we in terms of the success rate of implementing this particular articles implementing the constitution and it being felt on the ground remember you said earlier that it's a journey yes I will say this way scientifically we would be able to say this when we have conducted a survey luckily we did a baseline that was the initial survey to find out in terms of since 2010 when the constitution was promulgated by 2015 what is the level of awareness in 2015 we had a figure of 38% level of awareness that was the national average it would differ from one county to another from one region to another I may not have those statistics but in terms of compliance different values again were complied with at different levels in different counties in different counties there were 17 values you will find that levels of patriotism will be different elsewhere in terms of unity and cohesiveness you will find this again differ from one area to another we are intending where we are now we are planning to do another survey because that should be 5 years later in this year we ought to do another national survey to find out scientifically whether we have made progress but as we wait to do that at our level as a directorate and responsible for mainstreaming this in government we can report generally now speaking that there is a marked improvement from where we sit marked improvement from within government going by the number of agencies government agencies that submit reports in terms of what they are doing promoting national values because we are the custodians of these reports both the quality both the number and the significance of measures being implemented across the country has continued to grow though we may not be able to assign a percentage or a figure to it we would wait to see when we have conducted that survey to be able to say scientifically that this is a growth rate from this percentage to this percentage but we are very up-beat and positive that realization of national values in Kenya is on course thank you very much for that I am looking at Eric Nalyanya I am watching live in the conversation thank you to Demon that is on twitter MKU Anil Mkoo Trapkid Bayrin Sheru thank you so much for tuning in those are people who are watching us online on our social media platforms they are saying that they love the conversation keep the conversation going the hashtag is one in the morning at Ramagukha and at Y2F4 channel it has been a pleasure thank you so much for being a part of this conversation national value is very important it is in the article people should read the article the constitution do Kenyans read the constitution I don't know there should be some survey that should indicate that I don't know if you've established that whether Kenyans read the constitution to even know that these articles exist not yet I think it's idea we should be looking at because do Kenyans read the constitution do you understand we were with my colleague earlier and he mentioned that members of parliament like saying the constitution is clear Kenyans wonder is it clear today we mentioned the specific articles that talk about national values the conversation was all about constitutional provisions or national values I was with Edwin Yungesa who is the acting director at the directorate of national cohesion and values from the ministry of interior and coordination of national government that was us to the end of this conversation this particular day thank you so much for being part of this conversation we value your feedback keep texting keep tweeting may god bless you and may god bless the work of your hands remember keep it tuned to more of why in the morning we still have a lot in store this is why 254