 Welcome to Toffy TV, I am joined by Roger Armstrong and Doug. Big Doug Armstrong, yeah. And we're going to have another chat about the stadium, basically because I haven't had a good chat with Roger about his point of view. And I want to get Doug's point of view as an ex-docher about the site and everything else. So Doug, let's start with you. We've worked on the docks for a long time, evidently, hoping to move to the docks. So what's your opinion, first of all, of us having a stadium down at the docks? Well, to start with, sadly, the dear old lady is not up to standard anymore. Sadly, very sadly, I've got great affection for goodness and all it stands for. Unfortunately, it is now defunct, technically speaking. Since they had to go all-seater, it's no longer suitable. If you ever go into the new stand, I'm not talking about the park end now, on that top deck, the steps are about so big, it's a disaster. That's where we sit. Stop all the people. I mean you. It might be all right for youngsters. Let's be fair, I'm in the 80 odds. You've got to watch how you come down. Of course. So, yes, a new stadium is needed. My problem is, the site they've chosen, well, they've realised what's needed there. There's a couple of firms, there's a gravel firm working there. That's got to be found in a new place. There's a whole new dock, there's a fairly new dock shed there. What happens to that? And there's a dock there. Did they realise the preparation that's needed? In my opinion, I mean, no architect, but let's be fair. They've got to have sound foundations in these things. It's all good to you. One point I would come back to, I once heard when this announcement was made, I'm not sure, one of the commentators said, right, I'm getting down there with me spade. But my attitude is, you don't need a spade. You need a pneumatic drill to start with. There's railway lines all over the place. So, have they got plans to clear the site in the first place? Well, there's no doubt they have. The question is how long it's going to take. And John was on earlier, wasn't he? John was on earlier. I estimated two years to build the stadium. Do you think it would take longer than that? If the site is prepared, it could build a stadium in two years. My thought is that it's going to take an awful long time to prepare the site. Now, there is an awful lot to be done. In my opinion, somebody said we're going to cover the dock, we're going to build over it now. Dear me, that's a new one. I mean, I've never heard that before. Okay. I would have thought the dock wouldn't need to be filled in. And you go further up into Seaforth, and the dock was filled in to create the coal base. Now, that was filled in partly with the dredger coming in full and emptying itself in the dock. It was filled in with sand and slurry and all the rest of it. Now, for my mind, it's going to take a long time to prepare the site. So that's my big fear to it all. And you've got the issue that the dock walls themselves are apparently listed. Well, you're not going to demolish them, you're just going to fill in into them. But they have to kind of stay as they are. None of these things are insurmountable. We're not saying that. But there's a timescale. John talks about and the club talked about 2022-23 and a two-year time frame and a year for planning. So let's not panic everyone because we haven't got planning in yet. Get planning in in the spring of 19, permission granted by 20, start building completed by 2022, first home game at home to Liverpool in August 2022 and a five-nil victory. It's a tight time frame. OK, well, from your perspective then, you know where it. John still hope. I don't think, listen, I don't think he's saying it's definite. He's hoping that Everton followed the timeline. That's what he's hoping. What's your more realistic view out? What do you think? When we first talked about this over a year ago on business matters, I think I said there was a 5% likelihood of us being in 2022. OK. I'm not sure I'm going to change that down the way. Yes. Yes, but, and of course, stuff is happening. Why? Well, because something must be happening is about the only argument you hear. Yeah, yeah. Keith Harris, deputy chairman with special responsibility for the stadium, hasn't said a word, hasn't actually said a word about it. No, no. And Colin Chong, special projects manager in charge of the stadium, has said one or two things and muttered a bit about maybe another consultation. Dan Meese did some great work back in the day with his sessions in St Luke's and that was all great and fans were engaged and it was fantastic. And I don't think anyone will be disappointed if it becomes 23 or 24 even so long as the communications there. My problem all along, the biggest problem I've got with the football club is communication and we're rubbish at it when it comes to slightly tricky things. When it comes to opening the blue base and when it comes to some of the wonderful initiatives that the club have, which we're all very, very proud of, but on their own they are magnificent but they don't take us nearer to Bramley Moore and Bramley Moore is the single biggest event this club will have in the next 50 years. Communication has been pitiful, it's been embarrassing and it has to improve. What do you say to people who would say if there's nothing to say, why say anything? Oh, I get that completely. It's about managing it. I don't want a daily update in a personalised email. Dear Roger, this is what's happened today. None of that nonsense. I just think, you know, Denise is a great communicator. She tends to just pick the topics that she likes to communicate about. She's really credible. She stands up in front of the media and they'll believe her. And maybe Keith Harris isn't a front man and maybe Colin's not a front man. That's okay. But tell us, just say that the plans for the stadium, lots of work going on. You won't hear any more from us until a particular date. The focus on the AGM is a bit of a distraction for me. Okay. Because it's an event, an annual event. It's in the diary. It's in on the 8th of January next year. Why wait until then to say something? And why is that really a significant event when you think about the football club now with, you know, the majority shareholder is far had. And the other shareholders of any significant spills on the board and really. Now, John's Group, which does a lot of fantastic work. The Shareholders Association and they've held the club to account on a lot of things. Re-instituting these meetings. But these are people that don't really have an effective stake in the club. They have a handful of shares and that's great. And maybe they've been in the family for some time. But this event is more of a PR exercise for the club than an absolute necessity and a major opportunity. I think that the club needs to control the narrative more. It's something we talk about and I talk about more. And the AGM is something and of course we can give an update on the stadium. But let's say something before then. Let's say something clear. We hope there are rumours. I've been hearing there are rumours of an imminent announcement for a couple of months. And John is as close as anyone and he's not hearing anything. So I don't know. I just wish we would communicate more clearly and manage the expectations. Because of course we're frustrated. Of course there are problems with Goodison and we know we need to move. I think my point of view is that you're right. In terms of there isn't enough communication. But it's not communication for the sake of communication. No, I just think. You write it at 50. It's the biggest event the club's going to have in 100 years. Because let's be honest. We're hoping to be a brand-new more for it long after we're all. Watching from a different perspective. So I look at it. The roof isn't closed otherwise we have nowhere to see. Well we'll be out together. You can transcend walls. I just think the problem that the club has from us as supporters is. When you don't say anything, someone else feels that space. Doubt feels the space. Now reading between the lines and airing one or two things. It's all moving forward. And it's getting to a position where the website's going to be up and running for it. And I expect there's going to be some information across the next four weeks. That's what I think. If there isn't by this time of November, then there's something seriously wrong. Because nothing has been said for months other than appointments. Colin's young. I know Colin from back in when I worked at Everton's. Lovely fella and all that. But like John said last week, we're a bit bored of airing. It's complex. We know it's complex. So saying the same thing, it's complex. I think that point from John's bang on. All we've actually said, if you look at what we've said is, it's complex. It's going to take several years. But we're still optimistic we'll be able to do it. Now, come on. That's as naive as Jordan yesterday. Saying, you forgot to do my homework. I just guessed right. Maybe the truth, but don't say it. And so we need to be giving a message of confidence. And we need to make sure that the void isn't filled by the doubters. We don't do that. And I think that's really disappointing when we've got a chief executive who's good at communicating and she should stand up and say where we're at. And everyone will go, fine, thanks, great. Now, let's move on. Let's concentrate on football till the end of the year. That's the thing is that sometimes I feel with our client, it has got better, but it's still, it should be much better. They're all, they almost seem scared to say anything. Rather than stand up and go, you know what? This is where we're up to. This is where we're up to at the moment. We're putting it out for this. Planning permission's going in at that date. This is happening then. That's the, that's the projected timeline. And this planning permission won't be going until March 2019. We don't go. That's all right. Okay, fine. I've got a perfect opportunity with Spurs now. Delay, delay, delay. Oh, you know, don't want to fall into that trap. We're going to learn from that and we're going to do this and we're going to do that. It's a perfect opportunity. The international break when you had John and to talk about it was a perfect opportunity to update us. The capacity is the big issue, Baz. Right. Better not go there. Let's get on. Doug, let's come to you first. The site, it's all been cleared. It's great. Lovely. Okay. Everything's perfect. We know how we can build on it. Mr Nussman have shipped the steel in for us as our part, silent partner owner who's just bankroll must forever with billions of pounds to buy. And he's on next. Players. He's coming on next. I'm not in. What in your eyes, you, I'm quite sure you'll have seen massive clouds of gooders in the past. 70 or 1000 in there many times. Well, I didn't want to say that, you know, I have seen 55 of gooders in the 80s. They were in the days when you stood up. So them days have gone. Them days, unless they bring safe standards. Well, even safe standards will be turned into that. No. It's technically standing off in a seated capacity in an area. In an area. So, we're talking about a capacity for me as an individual. I mean, take yesterday's match. Yeah. There was 38,000 in there, which is only a few hundred yards of the capacity. Yeah, yeah. And the match is on Kelly. Yeah. So the support is there. And it was only Crystal Palace. You didn't sell out. No, it wasn't. The micapart, it has to be a minimum of 60,000 for me. OK. A minimum. If the, if the, often and puffing about 52, 53, we may as well stay at Gooders until it falls down. And it may be. Seriously. 20, 20, 20. Seriously, I can go back to Gooders and Wendy built up the gate big stand. You know, the gate big one. Yeah, yeah, the main stand, yeah. At that time, there was plans when the park end was cleared, all them evident houses were allowed to be knocked down. They were all empty anyway. But the council wouldn't let them knock them down. And that graveyard stone place was moved out the way. And when we got possession of that ground, there was going to be a double decher all the way round. Oh. On a, because if you, if you sit in that big stand at the very end seat, you'll be on the line. Yeah, yeah. Because the pitch was then going to be moved up. Nice, yeah. To give more room at the claddyses, as far as I knew, going back all these years. And having put that great big stand up, they were then going to do down the Bullens Road piece by piece. But unfortunately, and that's gone. Well, rather like United did, because United filled in the gaps at the Trafford. They never stopped playing there. And all of a sudden it went from 40 to 70, you know, just in phase. The difference between also United is, unfortunately, or fortunately, which way you're looking at it, Old Trafford was flattened during the war. So there was no building problems. If you go there, there's loads of parking spaces all over the place. Unfortunately, or unfortunately again, we didn't get that at Cutterson Park. We survived the Blitz at Cutterson Park. So getting back to the whole business, the stadium, the chance was there a few years ago. Something blocked it. I can clearly remember in the daily post, the plan was, not the one decker like there is now, as Joe Roy commonly said after he won the cup, we'll have to put another one on top. The plan was to have a double decker and it was going to carry on down the Bullens, piece by piece, year by year, and the pitch was going to be moved up. So there was more room at the Gladys Street end to have the same facility, but of course that's gone. So we're now down, if we can get the site cleared, I would forecast that the capacity has to be a minimum of 60,000 to accommodate two Abatonians from all over the place. That's to be fair, you see the coaches from all over North Wales coming here. Well further than that. Well of course, of course, but we have to make the place suitable for all those people to get in and be season ticket holders. I mean I was one of the first ticket holders used to buy for me step-brother in the paddock. This was in the 50s when the space started, but that's another story. Then he said you can't go in there, this is going to be seats and all the rest of it. The capacity is essential for me. It has to be clear the side, yes, all right, that's fine, that's my problem over. But when we come to build the stadium with the blue liveabed on the top of the grandstand and all the rest of it, that's fine. But the capacity has to be a minimum. And I say minimum meaning it could be go, why not go to 60, I don't know, a minimum of 60. The planning has to be that for me. OK. And then so it comes back to your point about communication and confidence and we've banged on about this a lot on Everton Business Matters and on Twitter and John and Paul and I and Paul has written a very, very, very clear business case. That you make it 60,000 and your 5,000 corporate seats which you have generate as much revenue as the 50, 55,000 other seats. Because you've got to have that corporate capacity. You've got to embrace that. You've got to allow for walk up and how you manage that and whether your limit season tickets and how many you give to the away, of where you put the away fans, but this is totally achievable. If you look at not just the peer group of United's and City and of course Chelsea are quite small, but look what Arsenal do with their 60,000 and how they milk the corporate. Look at what Tottenham are going to do. Tottenham are going to have a capacity lower than they've actually achieved in attendances at Wembley. 68,000 there, 60,000 at the New White Art Lane. Getting a proper deal with naming rights is really important to be at the right price, but Paul has written on his blog on theesca.org a proper explanation of why this is achievable and to bottle it and go for 52 or 55 shows that the ghost of Robert Elstone is alive and well. What would be your minimum? To me it's got to be 60. We've said from day one 61,878 because of 1878. Why not? And 1878 tickets every game are given to local kids or partners of VITC or whatever it is and that's a heart back to the boys' pen and Bill would love that. Ironically I think it's Bill who wants the higher capacity and far ahead who seems to be a little less reluctant, a little less willing. What would you say if Dan Mason, the architecture and blah, blah, blah, come out and go, we can't have 60,000? Well he said we can. He has said that that's achievable. He's also said that the site is not going to be extendable. So we can't go in at 50, 52 and we can add 10 if we start winning a few competitions. I believe that Dan has said that 60,000 is, you know, at those workshops he did at St Luke's I think he said quite clearly that 60K is possible but it's right at the boundary of availability. And in terms of cost, you know, you only build this thing once. Of course. And it's a statement, players come to play in big stadia. Players come to play for big managers and for clubs and, you know, the history is great but it's a big long gallery to fill in terms of achievement. And if we want to attract Rich Arlison and even better, you know, we need to be offering them that kind of opportunity to come and play in that place. I think for me the minimum it's got to be 58, although we can go lower than that. I want it to be 61, 87, whatever it may be but the minimum for me is 58,000. I think 55 is probably par, you know, and below 55 the majority of fans will be disappointed with that. North of it, more and more people and the higher it gets the higher people. I just think we had Sasha the other week at the business leaders thing in the stand for bridge saying we see the stadium as our chance to bridge the gap. And he was talking obviously financially as well with the top six. Well all the top six, Liverpool have got 55 at the moment. Dale Warner extended to 60, he'd already said that. Like you just said Tottenham, 60 Arsenal, 60 United 76, Chelsea 44 a day trying to get a new stadium but I don't know what's happening with them. Well it depends on the money. So it depends on, you know, Mr Abramovich, but everyone else, you know, even West Ham, as bad as that stadium is, it holds 60,000, Newcastle's 52. So, you know, there's a lot of stadiums in the Premier League. So Ellenbough, Sunderland's 48 isn't it, wherever it came. You know, so there's a lot of stuff there. So for us, and I, and people, I see someone yesterday going, why would it be 60 when we've only got 38 a day against Palace? No root for it anymore. It was obstructed views only left. Correct. It's Crystal Palace, say it was on the telly live. So Andy, the big thing that people are forgetting is whenever you move stadium, your average goes up by 10. Sunderland went from 17,000 at Roker Park to 47,000 at the stadium. And then the average was 44, albeit when they were doing OK. But it was more than double what you had. You know, Derby went to Baseworldland when they went from 16 or 15 to 30,000. Because people do it. Lester, Filbert Street to 32,000. Because it's there. There's Evertonians everywhere. If it's affordable, if it's unobstructed. Middlesbrough is an example. That's been built on the dock. Middlesbrough, that's yeah. There's a bridge over the dock to get to it. There is, yes, to get to it. Samarises. Samarises. It's called the Hardwick Bridge. Others on the holiday in the fella from Middlesbrough used to rap on the body. I don't know what this Hardwick Bridge is. Well, he was your left back. He didn't even know it. He didn't know. He's an England left back. George Hardwick. I said you had a goalkeeper called Eugolini. He didn't even know that. It was a part-time supporter. Well, he was a lot younger than me, you see. I can remember the past. Ah, well that's fair. That's brilliant. So it's... For me it's 60 or nothing. Or not. If it's not possible then you've got to look for another site. Peel Oldins have done a cracker here by getting shot at that area of ground. I'm not sure it's in the right place, but is there enough space in it? That's what I'm saying. I think there is an issue with accessibility. You know, there's going to have to be some... You know, there's a river one side, so... Well, if you go to the Welsh Park in Cardiff, the new stadium is built there and the river's here. There's just a little path. All the way up one side. But it's off the Millennium, yeah. I suppose listen, they've done the homework there because it would have been easier, cheaper, to just go to Croxtas. And now none of us wanted it, but it would have been going up now. No, not Kirby. But on Croxtas, the other side, the off the... Yeah, that's true. You know, the cross, whatever it's called. The old Littlewoods building on the next lane. Well, that was the one that really would have been... Ideal. Probably would have been that. The motorway straight in and the area was big. But this will be fantastic now. That it really will. If it can get up. The door in the 10th Street, they're already extending the road, the station coming in. Everything's going to be fantastic. And our ground will be fantastic there, I think you're right. We have to start head on now saying, look, this is it. If they've decided it's 55 or 56, then front up, front it up now and go, this is what it is. And it's this... It's not possible to do anything. Yeah, it's this reason. We're doing it because it's this, this and this. That's it. We would have loved 70. It isn't possible. Then you go, you know what? Give people more time to get used to it. The people will spit the dummy because if everything come out when it's 65, you'd have people going, shouldn't it have been 70? Well. You'll have it. Right? You will have it. OK. OK. But the quicker you front it up. Exactly. Is the quicker that then starts. So people then start going, oh, well, our new stadium's going to be 56. Well, about 18,000 more than Google isn't all right. And people get used to that idea then and start believing it. But at the moment, it's still... Well, you said earlier, you know, have you left Goodison yet? And I don't feel like I've left Goodison yet. Not at all. You know, I don't feel there's a date. I don't feel... There's nothing? Three seasons to go, potentially only, three and a half. My big fear in all this is I'll never see this. Yes, you will. Yes, you will. You're full of life. Stop it. You'll be there. Stop it. Well, I've said this many times, you know, when you're getting into this position that I'm in, you know, they're not getting anywhere, they're no information. You say, well, another year and another year. I haven't got another year and another year. So to help Everton, there's another season available if they take their time, because I won't be there. You will. You will. How old are you? 84 next time. Right. So I'm on Twitter the other day. There's a fella, 107, Barbara, still cutting air. Well, okay. Still working. So packing in. You're only a young man. Stop it. No, no, no, no. No, I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I mean, I'd love to be on a ferry boat and see the blue life of bed on the main stand. You know, I would get pleasure galore to go down to Seekham ferry and look at it and all the rest of it. Don't get me wrong. I'm as romantic as an expert about the stadium, just that I have my doubts about clearing the size and the ability to give it the capacity I think it needs. And that's where information helps. The club wants that amount of capacity. It's all good I'm saying there's only 38 there, hasn't it? I've been in there when there was 75, 78,000. Yeah, yeah. And years ago, I used to run the club's football. And we were beginning to see kids coming with the blue shirt on. Other than that, it was all red. All that, yeah, yeah. You can get back to those times by, as we said, making tickets available for kids. You know, let's get school kids about that. That's what you should do. You should play for clever. The site availability and the capacity. OK? I'll cease. Everton, what's this? If you need any more convincing about giving information out, just listen to Doug. Because he's speaking for all of us. We all want information. We can handle it. Of course. We can handle it. Just be honest. Just come out and go, listen, this is what it is. This is this. This is this. And we'll all go right. We'll get on with it. But don't be. Da! Da! Go lower than 55. At least, I think, like you say, just come out and say it. And if you haven't decided the capacity, why? Absolutely. That's why. Because to me, that would be one of the first things you do when you design it. Let's get the corporate room in another extra couple of people. There you go. There you go. Roger, do you want the last word? Andy, you think we will be playing in the stadium? I just want Everton to prove me wrong. That's fine. I can handle the news. As you say, if the capacity is lower than what we'd ideally aspire to. But I'd love Everton to prove me wrong. John thinks it may, he's hopeful it's 2022. If I had to push you on a bit. If you had to push me and I had to put my money down, I'd go a year later than that. 23. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. But you don't apologise to me, isn't it? I think. You know what? I think maybe 23 as well. Maybe. Deal. But I hope. I hope, listen, I hope it's 22. I really do. I hope it's 22. You're eternal optimist. We'll see. I'll put another one on that. So 23-ish for me and Roger. And 24. 2024 for Doug, for the big Doug at the end there. He's right. Thanks very much for joining us. Thanks mate. It's good to see you. Thanks Doug. Don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget. Listen, put in the comments. Put what you think the capacity should be. What do you think the comments made anyway? Yeah. And what do you think of us? Do you agree with Doug? Do you agree with Roger? Do you agree with none of us? Do you disagree with everything we've said? Thanks for watching. See you later. Don't forget to check out Everton Business Matters where the lads go into more detail on the business side of the complexities of the stadium and everything else to do with Everton Football Club. See you later.