 Hey everybody, tonight we're debating Muslim civil society or dr. Hashmi's organization versus Muslim skeptic.com which organization has helped or harmed Muslim Americans more and we are starting right now with before I hand it over to Dr. Hashmi for his opening. I'm going to quick read his introduction. Dr. Javad Hashmi is a PhD candidate in the study of religion is Islamic studies at Harvard University, former fellow of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School and practicing emergency physician. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Hashmi has obtained bachelors and master's degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies from UC Berkeley and Harvard University respectively. Dr. Hashmi is currently completing his doctoral dissertation on the topic of jihad in the Quran. His research interests include Quranic studies, Islamic intellectual history with a focus on Islamic modernism and the intersection between religion and violence. He recently stepped down from his position as research director at MPAC, the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Dr. Hashmi can be followed on Twitter at Dr. Javad T. Hashmi as well as on YouTube with the handle impactful scholar. With that, thanks very much for being with us. Dr. Hashmi, the floor is all yours. All right. Thank you so much, James. I'm going to be sharing my screen so if you could just hold on till then. I always forget to close this. All right. And then if you could give me that warning as well. Am I set to go now? Yes, crystal clear. Okay. So thank you very much. So the first thing I want to state is that I didn't actually want to do this debate. This is, I wanted to do the debate that we had two weeks ago, which was an intellectual debate. Not one where we engage in ad hominem attacks. But unfortunately, Daniel insisted on this debate and so here we are. And it's unfortunately going to get deeply personal. I just want to remind that I didn't start this. In fact, Daniel has attacked numerous or almost all of the major Muslim leaders, personalities and organizations and M pack is just the latest victim of this. Although I no longer work for M pack. I recently resigned. I'm proud of the work they do on behalf of the American Muslim community and I will seek to exonerate them from Daniel's lies and slanders. In fact, it's Daniel and his org that are complete grift and harm to the American Muslim community. Now who's behind the Muslim skeptic team? Well, it's a bunch of anonymous nobodies. We have no idea who these people are. It's really at the end of the day, just two people. It's Daniel Hakekachu and his wife, Om Khaled or Ola. Ola is not some innocent third person here. She is part and parcel of the grift. She's the one who runs a Lusna Institute and they both benefit financially from the grift that they engage in. So Daniel wants to put M pack on trial, but today I'm putting Daniel on trial. And the charges against Daniel are that he's an insincere grifter, extremist, racist, hypocrite, conspiracy theory, kook, smear merchant and serial liar. And nobody should take him seriously. You could not possibly pay someone to do a better job of being an agent provocateur and of making Islam look bad than Daniel. I don't think we need to claim that Daniel is literally getting paid by some secret agency, but he is certainly lining his pockets with this obvious grift. So that's the first charge that he's an agent provocateur. He himself recognizes that these people exist, people who are Muslim, but make Islam look brutal. And he says this is fed like behavior. And this is the exact behavior that Daniel displays. He recognizes that there are people who just want to talk about slavery, sex slavery and wife beating all the time. And he says of them, they're cons, conmen. Well, Daniel, that's you, you talk about it all the time. In the last year alone, you've tweeted a defense of sex slavery and child marriage over four dozen times. And that's something that not even a reasonable traditionalist would do. You make Islam look bad and you make Islamic traditionalism look even worse. Daniel spreads these kind of images and ideas that Islam was spread by the sword that Muslims defend slavery and child marriage. There's such thing as Islamic slavery, which he thinks is justified, sex slavery in Islam, wife beating in Islam. And the ex-Muslims and Islamophobes have a field day. They love Daniel. They reproduce all of his content. They give him a lot of material to work with. You know, men must beat their wives. He says, here's, he's defending having sex with little kids and child marriage. Here he's defending the idea that Muslim women should not be educated. Basically everything bad that ex-Muslims and Islamophobes say, Daniel says, yep, you're right. In fact, he just repeats all of these tropes. It's hard to tell if he's a Muslim or an Islamophob. Here, he's defending the idea of rape. These words here, they could be said by Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch about how you can just kill your person's husband to capture as a sex slave, relocate her by force, no problem, et cetera, et cetera. And he's defending raping slaves. This is the work of an Islamophob, not of a Muslim. Even the ultra conservative fundamentalist Farid had a problem with this and was pushing back against Daniel and saying, no, you do need consent. And then Daniel's arguing with him because that's what kind of a rape apologist Daniel is. Here he is defending a marrying and having sex with a five-year-old and then even a four-year-old. And this clip went viral. I mean, this alone is enough to cancel Daniel. I mean, who spreads this kind of stuff? And it's not just me who's saying this. Ex-Muslims themselves, they are celebrating Daniel. They love Daniel. Here's an ex-Muslim reddit thread in which they're thanking Daniel. Daniel, if you're seeing this, I just want to say, keep it up. You're doing a great job. You're deviating people from Islam. Daniel is confirming what ex-Muslims have been saying for decades, another ex-Muslim reddit thread. Here's ex-Muslim Islamophob, Harris Sultan, saying Daniel just makes our job easier to expose Islam. Here's a prostate prophet saying we should give Daniel more exposure. He's doing a fair, you know, give, he's doing a good job. Here's someone saying, actually, Daniel does a better job than AP himself in turning people away from Islam. Here's other Islamophob saying the exact same thing, that they don't want to cancel. They want him to reach far and wide. He's doing a great, even in our debate, there were comments like this. And he's basically burying Islam, this is one Christian apologist says. And he's loved by right-wing think tanks. Here he is described by this right-wing think tank as a scholar of Islam. He was interviewed by Midi's foreman. In fact, I got an invitation because of my interaction with him. And Jihad watch Robert Spencer loves him and says, at least Daniel is honest, unlike so many other Islamic apologists in the West. So why does Daniel take all of these extreme and outlandish positions that make Islam look bad? It's the money. It's grift. From his YouTube alone, he's making probably six-figure salary. He also has multiple streams of income. He's selling content online, like Hustler's University, Andrew Tate's Hustler University. His service for the year costs $132 a year, and his minions are of course paying that. He also had this fraud of a book in which he just pressed print on his blog site and just printed out the articles from his blog and slapped them all together and made it into a book and sold it to his unsuspecting customers. As one reviewer said, this was a scam, just a disgusting cash grab. Nothing original in the book, just his online content. In fact, he's so good at monetizing himself that Alpha Muslim said he's the one to follow when it comes to try to make money. Now Daniel, that's funny because Daniel has accountability reports on his website, Muslim Skeptic, which is really just him by the way, and his wife, like I said. And they go into the money. They go into the finances. They ask Yakin Institute about their finances. But really Daniel should release his financial records for both Muslim Skeptic and Alasna Institute for Public Accountability. Why are those kept secret? Why is Alasna, your unaccredited homeschooling program, run as a for-profit business when most homeschooling groups are nonprofits? And you might even be violating the law. We can talk about that later. So not only is there the financial aspect, we can just document the grift. And that's why we need to see the finances. From 2015 to the present, Daniel has shifted dramatically, becoming more and more extreme. And the reason, of course, is the money. It's all about the money. So recently he got some fame by attacking all these mainstream American Muslim leaders for their document Navigating Differences, which was on LGBTQ issues. And he criticized them for these three points. But the reality is that Daniel himself, he basically issued the first draft of this in 2019. He just called it Tough Conversations, but you might as well have called it Navigating Differences. In that document, he defends gay rights as human rights. He says Muslims ought to defend LGBTQ people. He says that he's celebrating the stalwart allies amongst our LGBT neighbors. It's criticizing now. In 2016, he said, if you're going to post accounts that are doxing on me, then I'm not going to show your screen. Hey, gentlemen, hold on one second. I didn't put doxing in your screen. What are you talking about? Who did I share that I doxed? Hold on one second. I just hate to do this. That account is a doxing account. If you share that, I'm not going to share your screen. Okay, you're scared to do not. Okay, I hate to mute you guys, but what I'm going to do is the audience can still see me, but just until we square away, whether or not this is any sort of doxing. There's no doxing on there. What was doxing there? There was nothing doxing. I have no idea. Daniel, what's the specific information? I just asked to unmute, Daniel, in case you saw that so that you can speak to. Can you let me know what piece of info that Javad shared? Did he share your email or was it your address or what was it that Javad shared in the screen share? He shared an account that has plenty of doxing information about me and my family as opposed to my address, my home address. The account, like this sleazeball, promoting an account that doxes me. It's dedicated to doxing me. Daniel, this is how unethical he is. Oh, unethical? We'll see how unethical he is. Do not post any slides. If there are any slides that have accounts that dox me and my family, that you're showing on the screen to promote, I'm not going to show your screen. You have lied against me. You are smeared. Okay, lying is one thing doxing is another thing. You have one thing doxing is another thing. You're a sleazeball. You're a scumbag. You're a sleazeball. You're a scumbag. Okay, forgive me for muting you guys. I seriously don't like muting guests because you are our guests. But I am doing a quick review here just to be sure that there's nothing. So I am reviewing Javad's slide just to be sure that there's nothing about Daniel's family or address. I'm not trying to side with Daniel by doing the review, but I just have to be sure that there's... I have to, you know, kind of look at this. So I am doing a quick review right now. And there might... Let me just be sure I've seen everything here. I... There's a lot of text. Didn't she know the rule, Javad, that you're not supposed to have more than six words per line and no more than six lines per slide? Just one sec. I'm just... I have to be honest, Daniel, there might have been a misunderstanding. I'm going to double-check that I've got it here, but I don't think... So I'm looking at what Javad shared right before the screen share went away. I don't think he shared the address. I don't think that he shared... I'm going to give you a chance to explain so Daniel, go ahead. I just asked you on mute. I didn't say that he... The screenshot included my address. Sorry. The account. The account. Haram, the Haram account, is an account dedicated to doxing me. It has my name. It has my name in the account name and it's used... It's just dedicated to doxing me and spreading lies about me. So this is unethical. He's going to get our stream banned. He's going to get your... This stream on your channel and my channel banned because he's posting an account that doxes me. So this is... I'm not going to share his screen and I would recommend not sharing the stream either, James, because I'll have to report it. I'll have to report your stream for that. This is like a safety concern for my family. I'm looking at it right now. The only thing is, Daniel, I'm trying to work with me here, is that maybe... Like if there's an account if there's an account that is dedicated to doxing you... I've got something to actually say. I wasn't just speaking for no reason. Sorry, sorry. Maybe they are an account that has doxed you in the past. Maybe Haram Hikikachu is like a legitimate... You're just saying it on the stream now, James. You're saying the name of the account on the stream. Okay, what... This theoretical... Yeah, roll your eyes, James. This is serious. This is very serious. Don't roll your eyes. So this theoretical... This theoretical... It's not your information. It's not your family that's being... Why am I not allowed to talk? Is that okay? I'll defer to you that this account has been evil and the of dox your family because I agree doxing is not okay. I'm not for doxing against it. But what he shared itself isn't doxing you and so you might hate that website but to be fair, it itself... If... Okay, here's what I'm going to say. If he continues to share it, I can't promise that I won't report your stream. I'm not going to share his screen because he hasn't given me any assurance that he's not going to provide doxing information. So that's... We can proceed that way. Daniel, this is... If I understand right, this account is active. Like it's public knowledge. Like it's just out there. He's not sharing anything that people can't already see on the internet which doesn't have any of your personal info. Maybe the person who runs this account... This account is evil and all even for you and say they are. It's based on their prior behavior. So making these accounts famous by streaming them to thousands of viewers, potentially hundreds of thousands, that's a threat to me personally, my personal safety and the safety of my wife and children. So I'm not going to sacrifice that for the sake of this stream or this debate. Let me just... Okay, Javad. Let me quick ask you a question. I'll unmute you, but let me ask you a question. Is Javad to be fair? I do sympathize with Daniel. Like if this is an account that does play dirty, such as doxing Daniel's family, I can understand why Daniel doesn't want them to be known about. So would you be willing to not show that particular slide? Because... Okay. So if so fact, Daniel's concern isn't... Okay, and I misunderstood it. Like I said, I mentioned your address and stuff, Daniel. I'm sorry about that because you didn't say that. But Daniel is just saying, hey, I don't want to give any more attention or exposure to this website that's actually doxed my family. Like so I understand where Daniel's coming from. So if you could mute Daniel for while I respond. Okay, because I was muted while Daniel was speaking. Okay. Right, Daniel. I'm going to mute you. Bear with me, Daniel. But wait. But he can't be manipulating his stream and having it different than... I mean, you're the moderator and it's your platform. So that's unfair. Yeah, I can just mute you like this. Yeah, that's unfair. Your sound is not on in my stream. I can do that on my stream. James, this is not fair. James, hold on. Jivad. James, this is not fair. Hold on. Wait, Jivad. Okay, I need you to specify. Do you think it's not fair that you're not allowed to... that I'm asking you to not show this organization that is allegedly doxed Daniel? Hold on. Just let me finish this. Yeah, sure. Sure, James. Or are you saying that it's not fair that on Daniel's stream, he can mute you so that theoretically, he can mute you through the entire debate if you really wanted to. But... Correct. You're saying, okay, you're the audio. So you're saying you just don't like that Daniel's... Even when we're having this discussion, his audience should hear because he's going to make a big deal out of this doxing issue. So when I make my defense, his audience has to hear my defense. And so he is manipulating. He's scared now to debate. And so he's muting me. Even I'm explaining that I'm not doxing and he's muting me. Why is he doing that? Because the accusation wasn't that you're doxing. The accusation is that you're sharing accounts. Okay, hold on. Okay, so I think we're at least... I hate to mute you guys, but I'm doing it. So just for a second. I think we're at least on the same page resolving the first issue. Jivad, you're okay with not showing that account that allegedly is engaged in foul play? Okay, you don't agree. We're not even past that issue yet. Wait, okay. I'll give you a chance to speak, Jivad. So I have reviewed it just right now as we were speaking. And I don't see any doxing or personal information on that account. If he shows it, then we can say, okay, he's proven it. But he can't just simply claim that there's doxing. He should report it to Twitter. I mean, like you said, this is a public account. He's just creating an issue, right? This is an account dedicated to refuting his ideas as far as I know. It's not one of the doxing ones. I saw one of the other doxing ones, and I'm not showing that. So if he can show that this improved, that this one is doxing, then I will remove it. And I will also, I'll take a quick look and make sure that there's nothing else on, but he is making that accusation and then he's silencing me on the other side. So now he's gonna spread the lie on his side that I'm doxing. One more thing at a time though. I hate to interrupt. Is I do, I think it's hard. I mean, maybe Daniel will prove me wrong and he'll have screenshots of when they doxed it, him. I don't know. I mean, for him, whether or not he saved those, I mean, I don't like, for him to have to provide proof, it's just kind of a, it's a hard burden that if they engage in an outlay, he might have just reported them. And maybe that would guess. Maybe he's since then threw away the screenshot. So I do kind of want to side with Daniel in terms of like, if they've engaged with foul play, if they've docked them, I don't know for sure if it is, but let's just for the sake of the debate continuing. Hold on one second. Let's just not show that. If you want to read it out loud and you say an account on Twitter has said this, that particular one, Daniel's just saying, hey, they've engaged foul play. I don't want people to know that account exists because they seem to be malevolent. But for the audio, I do kind of side with Javad that Daniel I can, I even don't mind removing it. I don't mind removing it. I don't have a problem with removing it. I have a problem with his accusations against me. That's what I have a problem with. So it, Okay. Sorry to do this to you, Javad, but just, okay, I get we're on the same page there. So I do, in terms of whether or not the account can be shown, I do kind of side with Daniel where I'm like, okay, let's just, if you just said an account on Twitter has said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's do that. In terms of the audio, Daniel, I do sympathize with Javad because if I understand right though, Daniel, and maybe the problem's already solved, if he doesn't mention the account, you're not going to mute him at all, right, Daniel? Like if he doesn't mention that Twitter account that you say is malevolent, is engaged in foul play, then you're not going to mute him, correct Daniel? Yeah, look at the tweet that I just sent you. That's an account, a doxing account that Javad has repeatedly shared on his account. So Javad shares doxing accounts. He claims he's trying to say that, oh, I've never actually shared doxing information, but that's not my claim. My claim is that he promotes accounts that dox me and my family, he promotes them, and he's doing it in this debate through these screenshots. Like why does he need to show a particular account name on Twitter to make the argument? You can like just have the information that you don't have to actually show the name of the account. He's specifically showing the names of the accounts. Sure, but it's not relevant to his argument, like a random account with 10 followers. Like why does he need to show that? But just to keep things moving is that we're going to jump back into this debate folks, bear with us. But it sounds like we're actually in agreement that if Javad doesn't show the name of the account and if he doesn't say the name of the account, Daniel, you're okay, you won't mute him on your side, correct? I won't mute him, yeah. Okay, so it sounds like is everything cool if we just don't mention that account is you okay with the Javad? So I have reviewed my slides and those are the only time that I ever cited any Twitter account that's dedicated against Daniel as far as I can tell. I looked it over right now real quick. So I have removed those two slides. They were not crucial to me. The only reason why I said it was because I liked the argument that they were making making fun of him for that. But like he has to show my slides. There's no way that we can have a debate where he's not showing my slides. So I have removed You lost privilege. on your... You lost the privilege when you showed an account that docs me and my family. Sorry, I can't trust you. You're so scared to debate me. You're so scared to debate me. Your claims, you won't be muted. People can hear your nonsense. I have to use... Imagine if... James, this is not fair. How is he doing this, James? This is not fair. Like he has... I'm going to stream you doxing or promoting accounts that docs my family. So James, I'm going to request you that can you kindly stop the stream to his because it should only... It can't be... Like this is not fair. I can't make my arguments. My arguments are all based on screen share. So I can't make... I can't make my opening. That's what I prepared in advance. So he can't not share my screen. That's not fair. He's scared of what I'm going to show. And so he doesn't want to engage with this debate. I have said that I'll remove it. And I've bent to your will. Even though you haven't proved that they docs to you. Fine. You better not show another account like that. Otherwise, that's it. All right. So... Yeah. You've given your word. It's not worth much. So... You're scared. You're... One more chance. No, one more chance. You have no word. One more chance to set. Dishonest. One more chance. Dishonest. I hate to do this, but gentlemen. Okay. Just to be sure, we get back into the debate. I forgot how long, how far we were into that opening statement. I forgot to hit pause on the timer. So I'm going to have to go back and check that too. Give me a second. But sounds like we're all in agreement is Daniel are there any other accounts just so Javad knows what to share what not to share that have actually doxxed you. So we're going on the honor system here Daniel. I don't expect you to have necessarily saved screenshots like if you reported a Twitter account and then you threw the screenshot away after the Twitter account that punished by Twitter. I'm like, okay, it's probably what I would do too. So I'm not expecting, but I'm just saying like obviously they're probably... Doxxing means to share private information to dig up someone's family and personal address, personal employment, personal details and share that online as a way of intimidation. There are multiple accounts that engage in this against me and for the purpose of this debate, Javad doesn't need to show those accounts like he has done on his personal account on Twitter. So I'm willing to give him a second chance. I'm willing to give him a second chance. If he does any account like shares another account like that, then that's it. I'm not going to show his slides, but I'll give him a second chance. So do you know of any that nobody can see the chat here on Zoom? Could you send him the name of any accounts so that we can prevent him from sharing those accounts that have doxxed you? He knows exactly. These are accounts that have my name in the account. But it's not against the rules to have your name in the account. Like that doesn't mean they doxxed you. They have your name in the account. He has posted them all before. Here, I'll put them in the chat. Don't share the chat. I'll put them in. Nobody can see the chat. And Javad, like we're going on the honor system here. I know that you don't trust Daniel and I know that Daniel doesn't trust Javad vice versa. So I do sympathize with Daniel not wanting accounts that have doxxed them to do that. I don't know how many of these accounts have doxxed him. I'm not. So these are these are three. There's also the one that he did which was this one. And just to be fair to Javad, if they doxxed you, you know, like obviously, I don't know if you know, I doubt Javad saw the tweet that doxxed you. So he's probably sharing these. Yeah, he does see them. Yes, he does. He comments on them and replies on them to give them more visibility and to give himself plausible deniability. He says, oh, I'm just telling them not to doxx you. I hate to do this, Daniel. Sorry, man. I just I just I'm trying to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. So I'm going to unmute everybody. We're going to go back to that opening statement and which was Javad giving his opening. Let me just first folks of your first time here as I look for the timestamp for where we went off the tracks. So that way I know how much time Javad has for his opening still. I'm just going to let you know, folks, if you haven't yet, hit that subscribe button. We have many more debates coming up in the future. So thanks so much for subscribing. OK, 1634 all the way back to 1622 237 minutes. So you've got about 8 minutes left, Javad, roughly for your opening. You don't think that's right? I can double check. OK, I'm going to unmute you. I'm going to just trust you. Go ahead. What have you got, Javad? So, James, I removed those two slides. I do need to do my opening again. That's I can't have an uninterrupted an interrupted disjointed opening. I don't even I lost my complete flow. This people watch the opening in one go. It's really unfair to me that I don't get my opening. And as far as Daniel saying he needs to prove that that account is doxxing, he could have messaged me at any point in time with proof. He never did so. He just made a false out allegations against me. I have never ever promoted doxxing accounts at all. OK, I did respond to I can't keep track of all of the he has so many accounts dedicated against him. There's no way to keep a track of them. OK, so, you know, I need to do my opening again, sir. And Daniel can't be Daniel can't like have one stream for his own audience. He's he's like talking to them and debating like like he's he's he's smearing my good name on his channel. Which has like 100,000 followers at any time. So that's really unfair of him to do that. OK, so let me just first. Daniel, I think you'd be OK with Javad doing his opening, right? Doing it over. Are you OK with that? I mean, he's done redone so many things. Well, to be fair, Daniel, to be fair, someone showed up late tonight. So I kind of like let's just give him the opening. Sure. OK, then in terms of Daniel are you OK with? I think it's I sympathize with Javad when he says, hey, like if I'm doing my opening, but then Daniel's on his own stream refuting me as I'm giving it and he's not waiting until his opening or rebuttal. Like that's not no, I'm not refuting him. I'm just I have to intervene when he's posting doxing I mean, I think that Javad thinks that during his opening you are at some during some points muting him and engaging some of the points he's made during his opening to your own audience. No, I haven't done that. OK, OK. So Daniel's not doing that. So we're all on the same page. So the only thing I would say is the doxing issue is part of the debate, right? Because that's part of his slander against me. So that's part of the debate. And so we need to engage in that. So in the open discussion, we're going to talk about that because that's a big slander against me. So he can't talk about that. If you show the I will not. I'm not Daniel. First, you have to mute it. You have to mute you. I put some of the accounts in the chat. You're so scared. James, you're the witness. Guys, I hate to do this. But the only thing is I do have to like I know that this sounds maybe a little partisan on my part Javad. But I do if someone doxed me on Twitter, I take a screenshot. I would report it. And then after that account gets hammered by Twitter, hopefully I'd probably throw the screenshot away. Like I'm always throwing files away on my computer. So I don't like it's just hard to say he has to like I don't really you could say I'm overruling that. I'm just kind of saying I don't know. It's kind of a hard thing to say that he has to show that happened where he may have thrown it away in the past. At the same time, Daniel, like how many of these like doxing is pretty rare. Like, you know, I've done 900 debates or so. I've hosted 900 debates. I've seen maybe like one person in chat ever dox someone. It's really rare. So Daniel, like, I don't know how many of these Twitter accounts have doxed you. Maybe it's different from YouTube live chats, but like we're trusting you, right? So why do you look so you look so skeptical, Daniel? You're like, it shows that. Okay. All right. So everybody on agreement. I'm going to unmute you guys. Is that fair? You guys on the same page? I'm okay with that. It's just that Daniel agreed to you, James as the moderator, and he can't make himself the moderator on his own channel. No, no, I warn you. I warn you, Javad. If you mention those accounts, I'm muting you. I'm not going to mention those accounts. Okay. I'm not going to mention those accounts. That's your word there for a person. I'm not going to mute you. Okay. We're all on the same page. Sounds like we're on the same page. You're on the same page. James is the moderator, not you. Javad. Thanks. Thanks, Javad. You're smart. We're like, I've sided with you, Javad, where I've said like, I agree, you know, Daniel, like, don't be speaking to your audience during your he's and he's agreed that he won't do that. Like, we're all on the same page. Okay. Like, okay. All right. What I'm going to do is let's start completely clean. It's 55 minutes in and, you know, we're just going to start completely clean. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to probably edit out this first 55 minutes or something. That's fine. And that will remove those accounts that he's worried about. So that was unintentional if they actually did docs, but whatever. It's removed. I'm going to go to the cold open screen. Folks can still hear. So folks hang in there. I'm going to go on screen. I'm going to do the cold open and everything again. Let me just pull up that bio and then I'll read that as well. And then we'll jump into it. So thanks for your support, folks. Appreciate your patience as we're glad to have you here. No matter what walk of life, Muslim Christian atheists, you name it. And so I'm going to kick it over. Well, let me do that cold open first. And then did we when did we like when did I pin anybody here? Two seconds. I'm just going to I'm going to do this. I'm going to do the cold open from this screen. So here I go. Hey, everybody. Tonight we're debating Muslim civil society. In other words, Dr. Hashmi's organization versus Muslim skeptic dot com annuals organization, which organization has helped or harmed Muslim Americans more. And we are starting right now with Dr. Hashmi's opening. And first, his bio in particular, Dr. Javad T. Hashmi is a PhD candidate in the study of religion. Islamic studies at Harvard University, former fellow of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School and practicing emergency physician. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Hashmi has obtained bachelors and master's degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies from UC Berkeley and Harvard University respectively. Dr. Hashmi is currently completing his doctoral dissertation on the topic of Jihad in the Quran. His research interests include Quranic studies, Islamic intellectual history with a focus on Islamic modernism and the intersection between religion and violence. He recently stepped down from his position as research director at MPAC and the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Dr. Hashmi can be followed on Twitter at the handle. Dr. Javad T. Hashmi, as well as on YouTube with Handel, Impactful Scholar. And with that, thanks so much for being with us. Dr. Hashmi, the floor is all yours for your opening statement. All right, James. Thank you so much. I'm just going to share my screen. So give me a second. Okay. And if you could give me a two minute warning, please. All right. I'm ready to begin. Let me know if I can begin. You bet two seconds. Just two seconds. Just adapting the screen. It shifted on me. And thanks very much. We're ready for you. Okay, great. Thank you so much. The first thing I want to say is that I did not want to have this debate. I wanted to have the intellectual discussion that we had two weeks ago. That's what I wanted to have, but Daniel always likes to go ad hominem and make it personal. So he's the one who started this, but I'm the one who's going to end this. Daniel attacks all different Muslim organizations, any American Muslim leader, organization of personality he attacks. That's part of his grift. And Impact is just the latest in this latest barrage. Although I recently resigned from Impact, I'm proud of the work they do and I'm more than happy to defend them today. But I will show today that it's Daniel and his org that are the complete grift and harm to the American Muslim community. So who's behind the Muslim skeptic team? Well, it's a bunch of anonymous nobodies. We have no idea who these people are. It's really only two people. First, Daniel Haikikachu and his wife, Um Khaled or Ola. Ola is part and parcel of this grift. She's the one who runs the Lasna Institute and we'll get into her in a bit. But Daniel wants to put Impact on trial, but today I'm going to be putting Daniel on trial. The charges are this. Daniel stands accused today of being an insincere grifter, extremist, racist, hypocrite, conspiracy theory, kook, smear merchant and serial liar, and nobody should take him seriously. You could not possibly pay someone to do a better job of being an agent provocateur and of making Islam look bad than Daniel. I don't think we need to claim that Daniel is literally getting paid by some secret agency, but he is certainly lining his pockets with his obvious grift. So that's the first argument against him. He's an agent provocateur who makes Islam look bad. He himself says that Muslims who make Islam look brutal, that's fed like behavior and that's the behavior that Daniel shows. In his own words, he says those people just want to talk about Islam and slavery, sex slavery and wife beating, their cons, con men. Well Daniel, that's you. In the last year alone, you've tweeted a defense of sex slavery and child marriage well over four dozen times, something that even a reasonable traditionalist would never do. In fact, you make Islam look bad. You say that Islam was spread by violence. You always talk about slavery and child marriage, about Islamic slavery is what you call it, sex slavery, wife beating. The ex-Muslims and Islamophobes, they love you. They love reproducing your work. You're everywhere on their YouTube. Men must beat their wives. Here you're defending child marriage and having sex with minors. Here you're defending Muslim women shouldn't go to college according to your version of Islam. Everything that ex-Muslims and Islamophobes say, you say, yep, you're all right. These are the things that Islam says and you say everything that they say. In fact, it's hard to tell if you're the Islamophob or you're the Muslim. Here you're defending rape. Here these words could be attributed to Robert Spencer that you can just kill someone's husband, capture as a sex slave, relocate her to your home and then rape her. This bothered even a fundamentalist like Fareed who pushed back against this and then here you are arguing with him trying to defend rape. Here's your clip that went viral about how you can have sex with a child a five-year-old or a four-year-old. This clip went viral. I mean, you're the Fed. You're the agent provocateur who's spreading this kind of ideas. In fact, ex-Muslims love you. Here's an ex-Muslim reddit thread that's thanking you. Thank you, Daniel. I love that you're spreading this information. Good job. Here's another ex-Muslim reddit thread defending you that you're just confirming what we've been saying all along is what they say. Here's an ex-Muslim Harith Sultan saying you're making our job easier to expose Islam. Here's a post-state prophet saying that you should actually get more exposure. And here's another one saying that actually Daniel does a better job than APN turning people away from Islam. Here's all of these accounts saying that they love Daniel and they're all Islamophobes and ex-Muslims, even in our debate there was somebody who said that. Daniel is burying Islam and these people love it. Here's a right-wing think tank which is praising him as a scholar of Islam. And here's a Jihad watch Robert Spencer saying that at least Daniel is honest unlike so many other Islamic apologists in the West. So why does Daniel take all of these extreme and outlandish positions? It's the grift. It's the money. Here we see that he's making a lot of money off his YouTube, probably a six-figure salary. In fact, he has multiple streams of income. He runs courses like Hustler's University on his website. He has all these other sources of money, including his yearly subscription which costs $132 per year. And then there was this fraud of a book where he just literally pressed print on his blog articles, compiled them, and slapped them all together. And he never even told his audience that's what he did. As one reviewer said, this was a scam, a disgusting cash grab. In fact, he's so good at monetizing himself that he's featured on Alpha Muslim as an example of somebody who did a really good job, a Muslim content creator about making money. It's funny that Daniel has these accountability reports on his Muslim skeptic site where he looks into the finances. For example, he's looking at the finances of Yakin Institute. But Daniel, you should release the financial records for both Muslim skeptic and Alasna Institute. You should be held publicly accountable, right? Why is Alasna, your unaccredited homeschooling program run as a for-profit business? And you might even be violating the law. So we can actually track your grift. And that's why I wanted to see the finances continue to the present. You've shifted dramatically becoming more and more extreme. Why is that? It's because of the money, obviously. In fact, recently you became famous for attacking navigating differences, a document that came out by some American Muslim Imams on the issue of LGBTQ. And you criticize them on three points. But the reality is is that you yourself, in 2019, you put out the first version of navigating differences. You call it tough conversations. And in that, you literally said all three points. You said gay rights can be defended as human rights. You said Muslims ought to defend LGBTQ people. You said you even celebrated that we have stalwart allies amongst our LGBT neighbors. Back then you were saying that it's inappropriate to call gay people Gom Luth. And you said, don't make fun of gay people. But here all of a sudden in 2020 you're calling them Gom Luth. And here you're implying that we should throw them off high buildings and kill them. So you went from a compassionate Imam to a psycho. What happened? You're a straight up grifter. That's what happened. Here's you. This is before your cosplay as an Islamic fundamentalist. This is when you were suit in a tie. In 2017, you have high praise for Imam Omar Salaman talking about how scholarly credentials are beyond question. And how he's doing a great job of doing the balancing act that is very difficult to do. And then all of a sudden in 2020 now you're attacking him. It's actually you who have the early onset in Alzheimer's that you're accusing him of. And now you've gone to the extreme of saying that we need to unschool. That is don't even send your kids to public school or forget that, private school or even home school. You don't need to educate your kids at all. These are extreme positions because you have no accountability at all. All you do is attack other Muslims. You even make fun of Muslim girls who want to go to school. Like here you are making fun of girls who just want to get an education. Is this a Muslim or is this an Islamophobe? Here Daniel is actually admiring the French for the French hijab ban. Here he's calling all these Muslims all these vile names like a Trumpist. Like he's Trumpian in the way he uses these nicknames. But worse than that Daniel actually because of his grift is actually flirted towards Islamic extremism. Here he has on his website Sheikh Haytham Saifuddin who's writing for Muslim skeptic. He's a known Islamic extremist that Daniel is promoting. Here he's thanking him as Sheikh. Even Muhammad Hijab says, why are you promoting this radical extremist? Muhammad Hijab of all people. This guy is connected to Sheikh Ahmad Musa Jibril who wrote the introduction to his book. Who's Musa Jibril? He's a convicted felon on FBI's watch list. It's considered Anwar Al-Olqi's successor. He's well known in the global Jihadist scene. He approvingly speaks of ISIS's spokesperson and one of the 2017 London attackers was said to be radicalized by his videos. Not only this but Haytham Saifuddin is connected to Sheikh Al-Alwan the Al-Qaeda Mufti. Not only that but Daniel defends the Al-Qaeda Mufti. Here he's defending him. And this is the same guy that's being used to justify killing Shias. The same view that Daniel by the way might be sympathetic to. We'll talk about that. But Sheikh Al-Alwan lauded ISIS's operations at least when they were confined to Iraq. And one of Sheikh Al-Alwan's students was a 9-11 hijacker. And he's a brother and law to the leader of Al-Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula. This is the guy that Daniel is defending and promoting. Then there's Sheikh Al-Tarifi who is also sympathetic to Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Daniel follows him. But not only that he quotes them. Here he is promoting his material again and there's Sheikh Al-Muhaissini who Daniel is also promoting who's an ISIS and Al-Qaeda sympathizer. Here's Muhaissini sending off a young boy strapping him with bombs and telling him to go blow himself up. Remember that verbiage when Daniel is going to use that? Well that's here he is promoting a guy who does that kind of thing. So when Daniel starts praising the Taliban that actually seems kind of mild by comparison doesn't it? So Daniel has all of these ISIS, Al-Qaeda and Taliban connections. Now I don't think he's a devoted ideologue. I think he's just his grift and extremism that has made him support these people. But why doesn't he denounce these people and apologize? He always demands Muslims to apologize. American Muslim leaders now it's time for him to apologize. And then he also promotes this Taqfiri mentality that we need more Taqfiri. Here he is quasi Taqfiri this Muslim Hijabi girl. It's not Muslim versus Muslim. It's not Muslim versus Hijabi feminist. And why is he blurring out the face of this Hijabi? It's not blurred. I can see her eyes clearly. There's no blurring around the eyes. So unless I've missed it and but Javad you're saying that's a public photo. All right. Let's just given that you're let's put it this way given that your point on in your opening statement Javad probably doesn't depend it doesn't hinge upon showing a picture of Daniel's wife like probably like let's keep family pictures out. Is that fair? Does that sound fine with all people? Let me just unmute you guys. So Javad does that sound fair even though he's not it's a key point that he's cosplaying him and his wife cosplay imagine this if there's a Christian preacher who's pretending to be all holy and in the meantime in their personal life they're going clubbing going to gay bars and all this kind of stuff and they're preaching the exact opposite. Javad I'm sorry bro I just I will recall that I'm sorry I'm not trying to be hard on you. I just I don't understand like you have to show okay if you have photos of Daniel and his wife going to gay bars you can show those because that would show that Daniel is fake but showing I don't see how you showing a authentic photo of his wife at home in the hijab demonstrates that her and Daniel are going to gay bars. I'm not trying to interrupt I'm just I'm not trying to be unfair here it's just kind of like okay let's just not show pictures of people's family I can you know I don't I'm not blaming Daniel for not wanting his wife shown in the stream. If it is a public photo though Daniel like I kind of Daniel says is not a public photo it just it just doesn't need it for your point if you have a picture of Daniel and his wife at a gay bar by all means expose Daniel but otherwise if it's just a picture of them at home I just don't I hate to do this to you Javad but I just kind of like let's just pass it over is that okay I'm giving you a chance to speak Javad Daniel let's give him a chance to speak so please don't so I blurred the picture is a public profile pic but I blurred it so you're talking about the eyes you're talking about the eyes in the Nicabi picture that's from his YouTube channel that's public this is textbook the boxing textbook boxing it's not this is a family picture if someone came to my house it's a public picture and then published that's not that doesn't mean that oh it's allowed because it's in public now this is not okay I hate to do this you guys forgive me but I it's just that it's showing a picture of his wife in his job I just don't see how that drives any of your points home Javad so like let's just let it go I know that you're like come on it's a public picture and I get that and I kind of I'm kind of like you know Daniel if it's a public picture I think I've seen that picture before but I don't know where of you and your wife Daniel but I agree with Daniel that it's like it's not needed for your points so let's just keep photos unless like I said if you have these gay club photos by all means but otherwise it's kind of like yeah it's just a picture at home it's not really driving a point home can we is that okay let's do that okay Javad will give you a chance to continue I just clicked James I'm okay with doing that but I so it's one thing when you're advocating that specific thing which is a face veil which is extreme position like extreme fundamentalism and if you're not doing it yourself then that is a point of contention and she is part of Alasna Institute she's not a random person it's not someone that's unrelated to the Institute so it's not like I and then I and I'm the one who blurred them out it is a public profile pick so I blurred it out I didn't show the picture and so I will not show it but I the record must show that this is a point because this is showing the hypocrisy I'm trying to show that Daniel is a hypocrite that's the entire argument and this is an ad hominem but this is this whole debate is ad hominem wait I mean just to be like I'm not I know this sounds like really pedantic but like it's it's not like it looked like she was wearing a face cover I'm not trying to get into a debate with you but like it looked like she pretty much was wearing a face covering where I don't see the hypocrisy she's wearing a face veil she's wearing a hijab but not a face veil hijab is completely normal for Muslims face veil is considered like there's a small percentage of people who do that and people who demand that are a pretty fundamentalist and so it goes directly to the points but like I said I just need all right people to know that this is the grift but all right we'll let you verbally with how about you make the point without the picture we've seen the picture let's go with your dress your opening that's fine so but I need to know that he's he's filming he's showing my slides if not then then then you need to James and I'm not going to continue on his his stream channel hold on one sec okay so okay Daniel like I'll I'll continue on your channel James but you're the moderator he can't just have his own not show my slides that's ridiculous hold on one sec okay Daniel I'm going to let me just maul this over there's so much there's like a billion pieces of information flowing and that's just however you debate is but I'm trying to like so I'm kind of like not get engaged with the debate while simultaneously trying to enforce the rules okay so you've shown the picture you don't have to show it again Daniel are you like I think I get Javad's point that see in theory I'm not taking a position Daniel why Daniel why are you why are you addressing your audience while I like I'll give you a chance to speak Daniel but why are you talking to your audience even while I'm just trying to make a point here is that I'm just trying to say if if he's saying that one of the members of the organization because it sounds like you guys run it simultaneously you and your wife Daniel and he's saying that one of the members of the organization is not true to their what they preach then I get Javad's point where he's trying to say hey your organization is not like morally aligned and so at the same time so Daniel I don't think it's that bizarre that he showed a picture and Daniel I do given that Muslim skeptic has about or at least double the subscribers as modern day debate and in terms of active subscribers probably way more than modern day debate so I do get why Javad is like hey come on you know Daniel like let me make my point to your audience too like that's one of the reasons why he was doing this as he wants to get through to your he wants his case to be heard by your audience Daniel so Daniel are you okay with showing the slides that no longer have these accounts that doxxed you and that no longer have photos of your wife will you show the subsequent slides I'm asking you to unmute now Daniel first of all he didn't establish that that picture was a public photo he only claims that it's because it's posted in public that means the picture was taken in public this picture is from a relative's house we were sitting at a relative's house on the couch as a family and took a family photo the face covering is not required when you're in you know amongst family that's point number one point number two this is not relevant to the debate my children are not Alessna employees okay they're not employees of muslim skeptic why is he showing pictures of my children the third point is that I acknowledge that my wife wasn't wearing nab throughout her entire life okay people go through change and development number four we never claimed we never claimed like made claims like he's described like this is not a public photo this is not a public photo it's a it's a private personal photo I'm not surprised that someone who has connections to intelligence agencies would get a hold of a private hold on okay I hate to do this G.C. just okay I'm in like again I'm saying this in theory is that I'm not saying he's right about your wife in terms of like her behavior but I'm just saying like I get where if he did think that she was being inconsistent it's a theoretical not taking a position but get that he's saying like if he did think that she was inconsistent that why he'd want to show this photo to say look like she's not consistent with it he's that's the case he's trying to make not saying it's true even if it weren't a public photo I like I'm kind of like you know it's like you're right your guys organizations are on trial today including the members of your organization so I gotta be honest like even if it wasn't a public photo in this case I'm kind of like he's it's part of his case but at the same time Javad without showing the photo can you just say hey you know there are photos out there where I'm making my case that she wasn't consistent without showing the photo because I get Daniel saying hey like I don't want these photos to be shown out there because I don't remember where I've seen that picture I'm trying to think like was it was it I don't know but Javad does that make sense in terms of like not showing photos of his family is that fair Javad I'm asking you to unmute really quick so I don't think it's fair to show any private photos that have not been shared publicly so even if it was at a gay bar and it was private photo that's not fairer game but if it's a public profile photo I think that's fairer game but in any case what's not fair is him not showing my slides on so I will move move along as far as the photo but I will not move along on his platform without him showing my slides there's no debate then because he he's now he does he's been mudslinging his whole life against every single American just before we do that hold on okay Daniel are you willing to show his slides for the remainder and then now that Javad has promised he won't show any of these Twitter accounts that you sent him the links to and you've also told him like no family photos period Daniel are you okay with showing his slides for the remainder and then I just there you go yeah so he has to first of all prove so the thing is that everyone can go through a period of growth in Islamic practice so you can have a Muslim woman who doesn't do this Daniel sounds like something that might be more for your rebuttal though so like I I'm just explaining why I'm not going to show his slides because he's going to continue to show and possibly I might have to report your stream because he's showing pictures of my family already like I have to you have to cut those out otherwise I have to file a report James I mean this is this is very serious I'm happy to cut those out he's a dishonest person we're all we're all yeah you have to cut them out and I'm definitely not going to show his I think we're all on agreement like there won't be any more family pictures Javad can just leave like we can have a stream about impact that's fine and I'm thinking but if he's willing to agree to those terms are you okay with showing his his slides for the remainder no he's proven himself dishonest like he thought it was bad enough that he shared an account that is doxing me and my family and now and then he pretended oh yeah I took down the slides and then he showed a picture of my family and kids my children like how is this appropriate James I don't understand how this is a hard decision for you to make where for example just because my wife wears napa or wears the face covering okay to do this to you Daniel I'm not trying to take sides but I just muted you and the only reason is just that Javad the way this works is I can't there was no agreed upon like there was no agreement prior to the debate where I you know Daniel said like yes I'll show all of his slides I frankly think that you can make your case describing what is on the slides even if Daniel isn't showing it like and religion debates are actually religion and science debates are the only ones that people usually use slides political debates they just explain and they just there's no there's rare they ever use slides so I'm just saying I think you can make your points I don't think Daniel is going to negotiate on this and we've just we've taken so much time on this stuff already that and I want to respond to some of what Daniel just challenged me with but for the sake of the debate I'm just going to let it go and we can let's go to your opening and Javada like I I'm sorry it's something that we didn't get an agreement beforehand and so I can't make Daniel do it you know we I would just recommend explaining what your slide says I understand that right now Daniel is not cooperating it's not what we expected but this is just as good as it gets because I frankly I don't think you need slides that much anyway but I'll give you a chance to speak Javada so James first thing is I wanted to show you that this is a public profile picture I'll send you the link it's public here you go I'd rather just keep going with your intro where you just explain the slides so it's a public profile photo you can see it there he's lying about that and number two is then I think that we should just continue on your stream James and if he leaves he decides to leave I'll continue my opening and my closing and leave it at that because it's no debate if I can't show my slides or you have to like tell him that he's got to I mean he's got to abide by rules you can't he's just using his his follow like look he's he's talking to his followers right now this is not fair I mean one second hold on okay Daniel Daniel one thing is like we're kind of getting into like game theory stuff in which like if if I defect on Daniel and I say Daniel so for one I don't have control over Daniel's stream so he can do whatever he wants and I can't stop it because I have no like veto button on my side like there's no it's just they're independent and then two is Jevon I I think that for the sake of the debate I know that Daniel's not cooperating the way you expected I don't know if I just don't see why you need your slides to make your point if you just explain what the slide says I mean because I use slides in a way of showing content so that's that's why it's it's very difficult to do it without slides it's just not fair and I mean I'm looking at the rest of my slides I don't have any other such content that was only the only content against her and the rest is against Daniel so he should share my slides he just doesn't want he's scared of everything that I'm going to show he thinks you can mudsling against everyone else and nobody's going to come against you look he's talking to his audience before we go too far we can't be honest so he's let me deliberate for a second I'm willing James you got to put some pressure on him so like if you just say that I'll be able to give my opening then and he leaves imagine if I came to the debate and he didn't show up wouldn't I be allowed then to give my opening I prepared it I spent days on it it makes sense that I would be able to present it he can't just because of his social media cloud you know dictate the terms like this this is not fair James like if somebody doesn't show up then I could I could still present and you can moderate you could say if I don't you can't show that I won't show that but I should be able to go on the terms that we agreed on which was for slides Daniel agreed to the slides here let's let's put it this way this even if I were to bring the hammer down and twist Daniel's arms somehow and I said hey Daniel this is just the way it has to be what Daniel can do is he can take the debate off of moderna debate afterward this is theoretical and he could just put it on his own stream like edit it so that your slides don't show and release it to his audience of a quarter million or 300,000 whatever it is now anyway so in other words like Daniel can do whatever he wants with this footage but you could strike it you could strike it then I mean so you have power here the debate you're the moderator and I feel like you need to lay down the line otherwise people are gonna like if you're losing a debate you could just decide to leave I mean this is not fair we agree to so we agree to the conditions but the rule is like for me for moderna debate is I've always been wanting to be like for the debaters in the sense that like it's your guys debate it's your content you can do whatever you want with it so I can't like I I wouldn't feel like I was being true to my promise to the debaters including Daniel if I were to strike him afterwards if he were to upload it in a version of his own way so whether it be live streamed or an export and upload the next day Daniel can make your slides not show and I what if what if I can't stop what if somebody did it like that and took out the other point like cut out parts of the person's arguments edited it manipulated it would then it be okay they if people wanted if the debaters want to do it it's their content they can do whatever or they want but that's not life but that's not live stream though that's that's and post right because right now it's that's in post but this has never come up in live stream yeah and I don't by the way I I sent you I need you to I need you to take a look that the link is public because he made an accusation against me I sent you the link it's public and so that should be for the record that this is a public picture it's there and I blurred it out by the way he didn't if you click on it it's not blurred out I'm the one who blurred it out I blurred out his faces of his kids I blurred out her face so it's public photo I blurred it out like this is fair game he used he used pictures of me that I don't like that's you know he used the picture with a fedora which I hate but he used it right and she's part of the organization I didn't show his kids I blurred out his hate to do this to you okay so Daniel it is true that it's a public photo so like I I don't think that Javad has really pushed you know I don't think he's really gone too far by showing a photo that anybody on the web can see already so I don't you know in terms of showing that photo I don't know I just kind of like Daniel you're being quite tough on Javad to say I won't show your slides but at the same time Javad like I I have never made this has never come up in the past I think that you have to go on without your slides and just explain what is on the slides now the modern people at modern day debate will see it if Daniel wants to put up which I agree with you actually Javad if Daniel wants to put up a biased version of the debate in which your slides aren't showing because to be fair Daniel like that kind that's kind of what it is I can't stop Daniel from doing that because Daniel like I said it is true it's a public photo so it's like I I get Javad where he's coming from so okay Javad you're just going to have to do it without your slides so it doesn't look like Daniel's going to budge and we've got to keep moving because we're we're about an hour and a half in and we haven't gotten through the first opening so go ahead Javad with your I've got it I actually stopped the clock this time you got four minutes left the floor is all yours and then let's ready to go and unmute you sorry about that and then okay but I would say Javad for me to show the rest of your slides along my side you can't show any of his family photos and you can't show any of these twitter accounts and then just so you know like later on even if defer to Daniel and I'm actually going to go back and clean my stream so it doesn't show those twitter accounts that allegedly doxed him and so it doesn't show his family photos because I don't blame them for not wanting family photos go ahead Javad okay but but like I said that it is a public profile photo you confirm that so I appreciate that and I blurred I'm the one who blurred out the images not in the public profile so that should be stated and I appreciate that you're saying that and I'm if Daniel wants to sheet and not show my slides that's okay people can come and watch it on modern day debates and I don't want him to get away from this debate so even though he's cheating and scared I will continue and that's fine okay so I'm going to resume now all right and let Daniel get his cheating in like he you know likes to do because he's scared okay so I'm going to start now okay so Daniel so as we've seen his wife cosplays in Nikob and Daniel also cosplays they this is all theatrics for the camera when he came to Imam Suheb web recently he came with the uncut 4k video what difference does it make if it's 4k is this cinema did you like the scene properly Daniel is all about being watched and cinema that's all he is he's a hypocritical grifter Daniel and his wife Ola preach one set of teachings for their audiences they follow another set of teachings for their financial well-being Daniel and Ola are the products of the same liberal education they condemn which they use for aggressive self-promotion especially Harvard Daniel's publishing and teaching runs counter to the rules of traditional Islamic education here's Daniel ranting against cultural education about getting an anthropology degree this is what happens if you go through this education system according to him and meanwhile on his website here he is talking about his wife who attended Harvard University studied anthropology and graduated with honors here's Daniel talking about his undergraduate degree on his on his book site on his book page meanwhile he has no traditional training no Ijazas nothing and his website is full of just post-modernist philosophy that even someone like me will say is completely unislamic in fact is worse than that Daniel tries to perk apart traditionally trained scholars even though he admits that he's a jahil he's worse than Orientalists and modernists according to this traditionalist because he sabotages from the inside I promise you this that Daniel will send his daughter to university even though he's preaching don't send your daughters to university meanwhile he won't go to Afghanistan he says that he will make dua this is all crap he lives comfortably in Texas in a comfortable home that's what he does he's just doing cosplay worse than that he's tied to white nationalism here he is having a friendly chibro chat with a white nationalist here's he having with another friendly bro chat with a white nationalist yet another one and these are real white nationalists by the way here's having another friendly bro chat with Roosh who's a white supremacist and a misogynist now you don't have to be a white white to be a white supremacist you might be asking why well he's from Daniel's from Iran Iran is the land of the Arians and they actually think that they're white in fact Daniel tries seems to be arguing that as well that hey people from Central Asia we're white too according to your logic and he says that he's white passing in fact he's a racial realist he says that races exist he doesn't push back against these races and he says I acknowledge that there are racial differences some races have different strengths so Persians for example are more analytical and more academic well I wonder how black people are here's race and IQ being discussed and not a peep from Daniel pushing back in fact Daniel seems to accept the idea that black people are more criminal and he says that's why certain races need more of this kind of traditional society and religion as opposed to whites because you see whites are independent minded and therefore they'll be less anti-social as compared to the other races and again that they were talking about black people and this white nationalist friend what does he say? he said I love this idea I certainly like this hypothesis that you can use religion as a kind of whipping effect on certain minorities and again they were talking about black people this would be interesting so he gives good ideas to these white nationalists here he is making fun of George Floyd here he's talking about how George Floyd died from a fentanyl overdose as opposed to the knee on his neck here he's again making fun of George Floyd making fun of Breonna Taylor here he is complaining why are we talking about all these black people that are dying what about this white kid that was killed by a black guy and he uses the word thug life whenever they use thug they're really trying to use the n-word and he comes really close to using the n-word he's using the word wiga here what's a wiga Daniel? tell us who these wiggers are that you're talking about then he's worried about anti-white sentiment and he says in his debate with these white nationalists I love white people I love white people this is what he's talking about and he wants this alliance with white people and there's a lot more stuff and I think I could have gone through a lot more material but unfortunately he cut me off the reality is that Daniel is a grifter he's a conspiracy theorist and a grifter he's an agent provocateur he says that I'm an agent he's an agent he's acting worse than a native informer he's acting like an agent provocateur or publicly professes the absolute worst views in the worst way possible and he self admits this I didn't get a chance to talk about MPAC but I'll talk about that in the rebuttal make sure to watch the slides on modern day debate because Daniel is trying to hide from this debate and cheat in this debate because that's what he does we will kick it into Daniel's opening statement as well let me before I do that just let you know folks I'm going to kick it into subscriber's only chat mode so if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more upcoming debates and want to say we hope you feel welcome whether you be Muslim Christian atheist we are glad that you were here modern day debate is a neutral channel hosting debates on science religion and politics we have no position videos it's all debates here what I'm going to do is kick it over to Daniel for his opening just a couple of things is this is going to be 15 minutes from each side and then we're going to have seven minute bottles I'm almost I think I'm stalling because I'm just nervous about how this is going to go but Daniel the floor is all yours James because we delayed so much I have to pray so instead of the use the actual break yeah I'm going to take an intermission before the thing okay we're going to take go ahead Daniel yeah sorry my alarm for prayer went off so just because so because it's been so heated I'm just going to mute Javad and Daniel because during this intermission I just want to be sure it's completely fair that namely no position can speak other than what I'm going to do is just make a couple of quick reminders folks if you love listening to these debates you can listen to them ad free on our podcast if you haven't yet check out modern day debate on your favorite podcast it is like I said add free we don't make a dime we just want you to be able to listen to these debates no matter where you are no matter what your service is you can be in the middle of a tunnel well on a train you can be in an airplane with no wi-fi flying on frontier wherever you are if you download these debates you can listen to them on your favorite podcast app whether that be Spotify or Apple podcasts every single podcast app we are on it no joke so check that out and it's been a lively one folks I've got to say these two gentlemen have a history to be sure that's one reason why tonight is just so heated controversial is we do want to say folks like I said I'm trying my best to be as fair as possible I get your feedback and I appreciate the positive feedback as I've seen a lot of people in the live chat say thanks for trying to be as fair as possible and we're always open to criticism so we always have ways that we can improve at modern day debate so if you're like James screw you you're not fair let me know for real we do want to be open to feedback we don't want you to feel like you're walking on eggshells so right now if you are in the live chat make your opinion known let us know if you feel like one side is being treated unfairly and want to say if I haven't yet did I already I think I haven't done it yet I'm going to hit that subscribers only chat mode as you may not have heard at the very start I encourage you to hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up and I'm going to hit that subscribers only chat mode so hit subscribe and that way it's not a surprise for you want to say as I do that how are you doing out there folks want to say hello to you tell me how you're doing in the old live chat I am looking at the live chat right now and I do appreciate you being with us so thanks so much for all of your support guys and gals we do appreciate you got to say on this fine July 11th day I don't know if you guys have seen Shawshank Redemption I've seen Shawshank Redemption when I was about 23-24 maybe even 22 I don't know maybe even 20 and then it's been so long I watched it again and I'm almost at the very end I watched it again the last several days I kind of split it in chunks during my work breaks I'll watch like five or ten minutes and I've got to tell you if you haven't seen Shawshank Redemption it is like it's probably my favorite movie Inception is up there but Shawshank Redemption is like wow how do you top that it is really good so want to say thanks so much for being here Ruslan Wulkov thanks for your positive feedback in the old live chat that makes a lot thanks for your support plus Beatbox glad to have you here says here's some criticism for you you're handsome thanks for your kind words you're funny JN thanks for your kind words to shout out to James not an easy task to moderate both sides and keep all parties on board thanks for your support seriously thanks for your super chat as well if you're new here to modern day debate the way it works is we we do sometimes have time to read standards standard questions as well in the live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate that's how you can submit your question but we've got to give you a heads up we don't always get to those we actually I'd say frankly the majority of the debates we probably don't is because we always read the super chats first because otherwise they get angry emails from people who say you did I sent a super chat you didn't even read it so we do read the super chats first do you want to say if after that if we get through those which I got to tell you tonight we've already had a lot of questions come in so I got to be honest I'm going to be up front with you I'm going to be transparent unless it's a super chat I don't think it's going to get read as we just have a already a lot of questions so anyway in the old live chat agent black says I'm doing okay thank god hope all is well with you thanks to agent black I appreciate that and thanks for your kind words Chris G I see you there in the old live chat appreciate your support says doing great during this very normal typical debate this is a truly truly interesting debate like I said folks I've meant to mention it beforehand this story between our guests it goes back years this debate has been years in the making they've had another debate on moderate debate you got to check it out but this debate has been years in the making gentlemen glad to have you both back we are going to go over to Daniel for his opening here we go want to say thanks so much for being with us gentlemen Daniel the floor is all yours if you're ready for your opening and I just I just asked you to unmute so it should the button should pop up well I'm not ready I have to share my screen okay should there a screen in this while Daniel's loading it up well there we go all right I've got you so it's all right there we go ready for you Daniel it's showing right yep okay so let me start the timer and can you just give me like a 30 second warning question yep liberalism is a genocidal project the goal of liberalism is to eventually destroy all religions and when it can't destroy religion liberalism wants to reform all religions to make them compatible with the generate liberal values liberalism does this because its goal is to maximize individual freedom and equality but when you maximize individual freedom and equality this comes at the expense of other important values like marriage family culture and religion so liberalism must destroy these institutions in order to maximize individual freedom and equality liberalism must use authoritarian and genocidal means to achieve this goal because people naturally resist people don't want to see marriage family culture and religion destroyed so they fight back liberalism cracks down in a brutal way and unleashes a literal genocide and a cultural genocide to wipe away all those who oppose it this is demonstrated throughout through the history of colonialism liberal colonialism was a white supremacist project launched by europe in the 19th century millions of people were killed millions more were violently subjugated and those same brutal colonial policies continue till today because Muslims resist liberalization and secularization so the west invades and occupies muslim countries and backs brutal dictators to suppress any resistance this the liberal secular west has always seen itself as the good guy in all of this in the colonial era they called it the civilizing mission or the white man's burden to bring the savage brown people into light of modern civilization today liberals call it the war on terror and spreading freedom and democracy and promoting human rights in the developing world but the underlying logic and motivation is the same to destroy traditional cultures and religions and replace them with a liberal secular system this is cultural genocide and muslims have been the biggest victims of this especially post-911 now whether we're talking about the colonial era or the post-colonial era liberal genocide has always enlisted the helps of the natives specifically natives who are willing to sell out their people for a buck there are different terms that refer to this general phenomenon of a person betraying his culture or his people for example the term Uncle Tom can be used or native informant or as Malcolm X popularized house slave in the muslim world you had these sell-outs who collaborated with the genocidal colonial powers these Uncle Tom's were the most vile traitors to the umma the very definition of monafiqeen one of the main liberal reformers in British colonial India was Sir Syed Ahmad Khan in this short opening I cannot fully express to you what a dirty rat this monafiq was but I can show you some of his words for example he wrote without flattering the English I can truly say that the natives of India when contrasted with the English in education manners and uprightness are as like are as like them as a dirty animal is to enable an handsome man we have no right to courteous treatment the English have reason for believing us in India to be imbecile brutes so he described Indian Muslims as dirty animals and brutes compared to handsome white Englishmen he also says British rule in India is the most wonderful phenomenon the world has ever seen he even says British colonialism is a gift from God he says yes my friends the great God above gave you the government of the East India Company how many millions of Muslims were genocided by colonialism yet you have this Uncle Tom thanking God for it then there is this revealing quote Sir Syed founded the Muhammadan Anglo Oriental College and he said that the aim of this college was to form a class of persons Muhammadan in religion Indian in blood and color but English in tastes in opinions and in intellect the colonial powers worked with Sir Syed to advance their genocidal project this is a pattern we see from all liberal reformers they work hand in hand with the feds now as despicable as that Uncle Tom Sir Syed was he has one huge admirer and that's Javad Hashmi Javad says he is closely inspired by Sir Syed Javad even thinks of himself as a contemporary version of Sir Syed now some of you might be thinking that Jafed is not a very good academic so he probably had no clue about Sir Syed's worship of the white man but actually Javad defends the most racist Islamophobic views of Sir Syed Javad is fully on board with Sir Syed's cultural genocide project as we'll see but the topic of today's debate is about Javad's employer MPAC or the Muslim Public Affairs Council MPAC is a political advocacy org that allegedly advocates for Muslim interests in reality MPAC is just a bunch of Uncle Tom's who serve the U.S. government at the cost of actual Muslims let's go over the receipts right after 9-11 Salaam Mariati president of MPAC who backed out of debating me by the way went to the Bush administration to support them in the fight against quote radical Islam Mariati gave a speech to policymakers about the importance of reforming Islam in the fight against extremism in this speech Mariati literally praises colonial agents and reformers like Muhammad Abdul like a good Uncle Tom Mariati boasted that at a recent MPAC conference a speaker had said that the closest human document representing the goals of Sharia law in the U.S. is the U.S. Constitution Mariati's message back then and today has been consistent we are the good house Muslims because we reject the non-liberal aspects of Islam please white master accept us please white master fund us we will help you eliminate the bad Muslims by the way who are the bad Muslims bad Muslims are the radicals like Daniel the tech theories who want to practice traditional Islam and not be forced to adopt liberal secularism over the years MPAC has supported numerous invasions and occupations of the Muslim world in November 2001 MPAC supported the invasion of Afghanistan and made policy recommendations on how the U.S. can best manage the occupied country in accordance with liberal democracy in 2003 MPAC expressed some hesitation about the invasion of Iraq but then a month after the invasion which ultimately resulted in the death and displacement of millions of Iraqi Muslims MPAC said invasion and regime change represented the will of the American people therefore democratic liberalization must be delivered as quickly as possible in 2011 MPAC cheered for NATO military action against Libya and said quote these changes in the Middle East and North Africa are long overdue they're grounded in the natural human desire to be free we support that push toward freedom and self-determination in 2013 MPAC urged the U.S. to take military action against Syria to order in order to ensure quote a future for Syria that is democratic pluralistic and inclusive obviously in all these cases MPAC will claim that they only advocated military invasion and occupation for humanitarian reasons so it's not fair to criticize them for their long history of war advocacy the problem with that excuse is that literally every single war advocate claims that invasion and occupation is to help the poor people in those countries even the most bellicose neocons have always claimed that they only want humanitarian cause MPAC has also supported military coups on the day of the Egyptian coup on July 3rd 2013 MPAC published an article celebrating the overthrow of the democratically elected president Mohammad Morsi the article says quote we rejoice and celebrate the victory of the Egyptian people of course this U.S. backed coup was against a democratically elected president but since that president supported Islamic policies MPAC was happy to call for regime change what's funny is that after this coup proved to be deeply unpopular in the Muslim community MPAC retroactively added a disclaimer to the top laughing laughably claiming that the author quote in no way endorsed the military coup end quote when the article clearly shows that he absolutely did this is the pattern with MPAC as we'll see they go back and rewrite the past in an effort to whitewash their long history of betraying the Muslim community MPAC also has a history of aligning with Zionist organizations and interests obviously MPAC has made many statements over the years against Israel MPAC has to express this opposition to Israel because the American Muslim community would completely reject MPAC if it showed any kind of sustained allegiance to Israel but when we look past the facade we see MPAC's true colors a telling example is MPAC president writing in the Huffington Post in 2015 defending the Muslim leadership initiative or MLI MLI is a Zionist organization that takes American Muslims on all expenses paid tour of Israel in order to butter them up to Zionism in 2015 American Muslims almost unanimously condemned these sell-out Uncle Tom's for their betrayal of the Palestinian people boycotts were called to censure anyone even remotely associated with the Zionist infiltration at this very sensitive and crucial moment what does MPAC do? Well, Mariadik writes in op-ed telling Muslims to stop these boycotts don't be so harsh on MLI they have good intentions a more recent example of MPAC's alignment with elements of Zionist policy is their statement in support of the Biden administrations quote US national strategy to counter anti-Semitism Palestinian groups have condemned this Biden initiative because it conflates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism the White House says quote the strategy reaffirms the United States unshakable commitment to the state of Israel's right to exist its legitimacy and its security and makes clear that when Israel is singled out because of anti-Jewish hatred that is anti-Semitism many Zionist groups have applauded this new initiative while Palestinian activists have blasted it MPAC of course sides with the Zionists now let's discuss MPAC's support for CVE countering violent extremism like good Uncle Tom's MPAC has worked closely with the FBI and Department of Homeland Security to implement CVE policies against Muslims CVE was developed in Europe and the US was but was exported internationally via UN Security Council resolution 2178 what you may not realize is that CVE is the program used by the secret police in Arab countries the Chinese to target Uighurs the BJP to target Indian Muslims and Israel to target Palestinians many human rights groups have noted that CVE is an Islamophobic weapon to attack and cripple Muslims basically CVE is a continuation of cultural genocide of Muslims from the colonial era if you grow a beard wear a hijab or if you have beliefs that are contrary to liberalization then you're branded a radical and potential terrorist and the government is justified in surveilling you restricting your travel detaining you or even assassinating you it doesn't matter if you have never committed a crime or you've never even threatened to commit a crime let alone actual terrorism the mere fact that you hold illiberal beliefs means that you are a threat this is exactly the reasoning that is now being used to put conservative Christians on terror watch lists because they protest at school board meetings or abortion clinics MPAC has a long history supporting CVE or CVE adjacent initiatives for example in 2006 Mariotti pleaded for the FBI to fund his counter radicalization program he also outrageously said that every Islamic school should be scrutinized to make sure they're not teaching any kind of radicalism from 2014 to 2016 MPAC collaborated with Obama's Department of Homeland Security to launch their own CVE initiative called Safe Spaces for their trouble MPAC was awarded around $400,000 by the feds several high-ranking MPAC employees like Harris Teran and Alejandro Buto were also rewarded for their work on CVE with cushy governmental positions the Safe Spaces Initiative claimed that Muslims who emphasize certain verses of the Quran or certain hadith of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam were potentially violent and there needs to be an intervention with community authorities to neutralize such individuals if a young Muslim for example talks a lot about classical Islamic scholars like Ibn Taymiyyah or Ibn al-Qaim that is another red flag for potential terrorism so MPAC contributed to government efforts to fought police and surveil the Muslim community again this is what Uncle Tom's have been doing against Muslims since the colonial era over the years MPAC was so thoroughly shamed for their involvement with CVE they were forced to issue an apology essentially an admission of guilt of course the apology engaged in gaslighting the community and misrepresenting the nature of their vile CVE involvement the admission of guilt was especially dishonest because MPAC has continued to work with the federal government since then the person who has benefited the most from selling out the Muslim community is Maryadi the man has had a working relationship with the Bush admin the Obama admin Biden admin and even the Trump admin in September 2022 Maryadi was appointed to the DHS faith based security advisory council the council includes hardcore Zionists Hindutva aligned Indians tied to RSS and career shills and CVE veterans like Maryadi the uber Zionist Muslim Jewish advisory council immediately celebrates the appointment of pro-Zionist CVE shills like Muhammad Majid and Talib Sharif to the council along with Maryadi a major purpose of the council is information sharing between essentially uncle Tom's and the federal government so this is ultimately a continuation of CVE type work from MPAC another notable thing about MPAC is that they're literally endorsed by Rand Rand is the official think tank of the U.S. military and it's infamous for its work in the war on terror against Muslims in the report promoting online voices for countering violent extremism Rand mentions MPAC by name as one of the organizations in line with CVE policy by the way Rand also mentioned sellout imams like Soheb Webb but more on that another day so this is Javad's organization all this dirt is just the tip of the iceberg the reality is Javad fits in perfectly with these uncle Tom's Jay started his role at MPAC in October 2022 but 2022 this was shortly after Maryadi's security council appointment what makes Javad more malicious is than the average uncle Tom is that he constantly makes false accusations against conservative Muslims of being affiliated with ISIS or other terror groups in order to get them in trouble with the feds not to mention his doxing for example he has accused me of being one step away from suicide bombing he has similarly attacked other Muslim figures online when confronted he just laughs and says oh this is nothing ultimately Javad is like his employers and his idol Sir Sayed he's a disgusting sellout uncle Tom Ratt and a more dead who worships the white man like his liberal reformist colonial predecessors for the first time ever someone has reported modern day debates live chat and modern day debate no longer has a live chat that's what salmon's yet when you have doctors okay so uh sounds like uh you almost sound pathetic to the person yeah this is this is what happens with Javad like if you took care of it James and said this is completely inappropriate it wouldn't have happened but people like my chat hold on it sounds almost like you're taking the like you're siding with the person that that reported modern I said that this was I said that this was Daniel hold on let me finish even though I agreed with you and I told Javad I didn't want any more family pictures and someone has reported modern day debate to YouTube and YouTube has shut down our live chat and even though I agreed with you Daniel and I told Javad hey like let's not have family photos it sounds Daniel as if you're sympathetic to the person who reported like as it sounds almost like you're saying that's what you get even though I agreed with you Daniel that family no that's all I said no no I'm not saying that's what you get I'm saying that this is I'm I'm I didn't I didn't report the chat I'm not whole I didn't this has never happened to modern day debate if people like if people are like oh I'm gonna report modern day debate chat I'm gonna get them shut down I don't maybe they don't like our live chat maybe they don't like that people are disagreeing with them whatever it is whatever reason it was do you know that no one has the did anyone dox me on on the chat that's the question you should ask I hadn't seen anything well I can't review the chat now because it's gone I hadn't seen anybody dox you but that doesn't mean it didn't happen if someone doxed you in chat we're in agreement Daniel that I I'm not sympathetic I'm not sympathetic that your channels live chat has been reported that's not what I'm saying I'm not telling anyone to report modern day debates I never said told anyone to do that so let me tell say it very clearly to my followers do not report modern day debates not their live chat not their stream I'm saying this very clearly so that no one mistakes you know what I think about the issue but if you do you actually know that my address or family details were not posted on the chat let's see I don't know that they weren't I can't see every chat especially as I'm trying to keep attention on both the clock during the debate as well as the questions I understand in a and then also so long story short I'm not hosting this when people do this to modern day debate so we can reschedule this at a time at which people don't report modern day debate I can tell you I'm just saying I'm Daniel I appreciate that you have told your followers to not report modern day debate I'm looking in your chat I see and a loose land says suck it up James Nasir Said says actions have consequences and I want to be fair not everybody in Daniel's chat is being like that some people who are like wait who would report who would even report modern day debate so I do want to say thank you to those of you in Daniel's chat that are in agreement with Daniel and I that it's not good to report because like I said earlier in the debate so whoever this person is and the lose Lynn and Nasir Said I just want to be clear I agreed with Daniel earlier in the debate that it's that children would not be shown and so I'm saying why are some people some of these people over there still that way but like I said I don't want to paint with broad brush strokes thank you to those that are watching at Muslim Skeptic and who are saying like wait what why would someone report modern day debate thank you folks however I'm not okay with this and I'm not saying it's either of you and I'm not even saying it's one of Daniel's followers even though I am pointing out that some followers seem to be like I said small percentage seem to be you know even though I agreed with you Daniel that family photos can't be shown some of them seem to be sour but I'm not hosting this when people are doing this to modern day debate like it's not happening so I'm willing to post you guys another time and we will talk about things beforehand like one can family members be shown which I think we all agree no they can't I mean this is something that is not like this is not something that anyone needs to be told if I if I knew that we have to make it explicit yeah please don't show pictures of my children in the debate like I would have done that this is ridiculous he's engaging in such unethical practices hold on I I think that to give Javad a chance to respond Javad I'll give you a quick chance respond just because I know that you're eager to respond because I know that Javad I don't think he was trying to what's the word I'm looking for but yeah I'm not I'm not okay with this I'm I don't know if it here's another possibility maybe it was that there were children shown even with their face blurred out I'm not blaming you Javad but it all I know is that when I so we got 700 or so last I checked at modern day debate they're watching live when I go to the live chat options it says live chat is disabled for this video it says learn more I click that learn more button it says as YouTube creator you're required to set future and existing videos as quote made for kids or not I think that because there were kids shown in the stream and Javad you didn't I know that you didn't try to you know get modern day debate in trouble either someone reported modern day debate and I actually don't think that's necessarily the case because like I said most people at Daniel's chat are actually supportive of modern day debate and so thank you guys for being positive and cool and there are only a really small percentage of haters I also think that Javad you didn't do it on purpose but I do suspect that might be what it was which I'm not happy with in either case like if someone did report us or not are you guys open to doing this another night or we can have rules prior because I'm not okay with just being okay with modern day debate having this happen like I I'm like no no no like we're not gonna play if people are gonna do this to us so I'll give you a chance to respond Hi James so Daniel's followers and Daniel himself they literally use words and verbage that threatens my life okay they fear me which is excommunication and say that I should be killed so for him to talk about safety and all this kind of stuff it's a little bit thick coming from him and his lot they are very dirty lot and they're the ones who probably reported it he made all sorts of accusations okay let's let's not they're not able to defend themselves I don't want to do that but I do actually despite like I do want to I keep getting muted and and Daniel doesn't get muted like he talks over and I think that's unfair like he also talks to his followers which is unfair like these he's talking about decency in a debate you don't get to talk to your and and rebut and even in the last debate he did his introduction instead of doing his bio he started framing the debate which is unfair so James I think we should continue to be honest I mean if he made so many accusations against me and my organization and I feel like I have a right to at least complete my rebuttal and then you can maybe call it a day after the rebuttal phase but like I don't I don't think that's fair that he can make he made one lie after another lie in his in his opening I just think that's unfair and James I'm sympathetic for what you're doing and I wish Daniel's actually using his weight to as a social media in you know YouTube king to like he did this for my debate as well when he was dictating like what we could talk about and what the framing would be all the stuff because he doesn't want a fair platform and I think you are the one with the power James like I just uh I think he's using his followers to dictate what's go what's going on and he's not going to agree to come back he's he's too scared now and I feel like he's made these accusations I should at least get a chance to rebut and then if he wants to okay so it sounds like Javad wants to continue Daniel what do you want to do I'll give you a chance to unmute yeah I want to continue the debate if you don't want to continue it James I understand but I will continue it Javad can stay on like a man and face me one on one let's go I'm I'm happy to continue the debate whether James you're not even sharing my slides you're not even sharing my slides what are the slides I left what are the slides I left these are my rebuttal slides no I'm not going to show have you show these have nothing to do with you no these are my rebuttal look look how they have nothing that's what you said before that's what you said before that you're done with doxing accounts and then you show pictures of my children like the worst kind of doxing possible like the biggest ethical violation possible you did it I did not your wife put it as a public imagine imagine if I put your pictures of your family James showed here's a picture of Javad's child like I I scan through Facebook and I try to find personal pictures of your family I put it in the debate you can imagine like how sleazy that is you you this was a public profile photo so even if it was public even if it was public and that's why it was public even if it was public why are you not admitting that I've blurred it out why aren't you because if it's my children we're sitting at home or with a relative what and you're taking a you're using a profile photo no we're going to if I come and if I troll you to do this to you guys we're going to restart a stream and moderate a debate so that way we can have a live chat we'll finish the second part of the debate there so this zoom chat will remain open I don't actually have to close the zoom chat so folks if you're watching I need or I know that you are watching at moderate a debate and you are not able to participate in a live chat keep an eye on the modern day debate homepage we're going to restart a stream there you can participate in the live chat and then we'll continue so I'm keeping my professional promise of hosting the rest of this debate and we're going to restart another stream and I appreciate Daniel thank you for telling your followers I don't think it is your followers to be fair but I appreciate just in case there was a rogue one I appreciate you telling them to not report modern a debate frankly I don't even think it was I think it's actually probably that YouTube realized there's kids in the video that's what I'm guessing it was I don't know I like I've never had so but what we're going to do is I'll be right back if you're watching at moderate a debate stay at the last keep just refreshing the homepage and we'll start the second stream that will have a live chat in less than less than four minutes so bear with us