 I'm sorry, you can see I'm very passionate about it. Rests for drugs were more important than other stuff because it was seen as such as this big, huge problem. Why me? I know people that have had a lot more traumatic upbringing than me that aren't paramedic substance users. So we should say thank you to Neil Woods, shouldn't we, off the bat, who's put us in touch? Yeah, sure. Did a podcast for our friends at home with Neil the other day. Neil worked prolifically, if that's the right word, in the undercover substance misuse area. And at the end of our podcast, Neil said you should speak to Suzanne. And that's what we're going to do. So I tuned in the other night, Suzanne, to your launch of Leap Scotland. Feel free to correct me if I get the terminology wrong. So Leap is the Law Enforcement Action Partnership. And my understanding is it's a conglomerate, if that's the right word, or a partnership of former police professionals who have recognised that the UK drugs policy is failing. Am I right there? Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's an international organisation, and it was started in the USA originally as Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, which is like a nice snappy sort of, you get what it says on the tin. But in order to, because of how much drug policy is integral into people's everyday lives, even though they don't realise it, to sort of open up working with other organisations and being approached in some ways by their organisations, it's been changed to Law Enforcement Action Partnership because the prohibition bit, people then think, oh, it's really, really political, it's sort of anti. And whilst we are against the prohibition of drugs, it's so much broader than that. You know, it seeps into everybody's lives, everybody, even if they don't realise it. And so, yes, predominantly sort of ex-Law Enforcement, criminal justice, prison, probation, and obviously what we would like is more Law Enforcement to speak out or actually in the job, but that in itself is very problematic due to stigma and the police culture. Ignorance, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. You know, in fear, you know, I'd say even changing drug policy at governmental level is driven by fear. Fear, people don't like change. What's the alternative? You know, drugs are dangerous. We can't do anything about it. And it's not, you know, what Law Enforcement Action Partnership do is, as Law Enforcement, we want to speak out to everybody of why we fundamentally need to change drug policies, you know, internationally, but based, you know, in the UK as well. Yes, let's come on onto that, Suzanne. Um, we can also look at how, as a country, we've been misled to get addiction confused with substance use, which is just too completely, you know, one is a mental health disorder or a learned psychological condition, depending on your, you know, which camp, which camp you sit in. And of course, the other one is a recreational pastime and the powers that be are very good at confusing the issue to make people think that if you take a drug, your whole life is going to fall apart. And of course, we, you know, very unhelpful across the board also creates massive amount of stigma, not just for people who want to smoke a spiff on their weekend, but also for those that fall foul of the mental health condition addiction. But can we talk about your, how did you get into the police? Were you always going to be a police officer? No, not at all. I, um, I originally graduated as a peer teacher physical degree in physical education, and I taught secondary school years, 11 to 18 sport for a couple of years. I sort of joke a bit that I was in a particularly rough school in Newcastle, and I decided that actually becoming a police officer, I might be able to do more. Not as simple as that. It was just that teaching really wasn't for me. I wasn't comfortable doing it. And actually, my brother in law had just joined and I thought, oh, actually, that sounds quite appealing. That sounds as though I'd I'd achieve more, I think, you know, I could do some good, you know, police communities, keep it safe. And so I ended up applying to Northumbria, which is quite they have a strict application process at the time. And I got in. And that's really where my sort of police career started. I ended up in, so I'm based in Newcastle, Pontein. I was in Northumbria Police Service and most people, well, the UK, you know, I was based in Biker, you know, Biker Grove, but so Biker and Walker, which is the East End of Newcastle, which is where I did my two years probation. And then from there went on to I got particularly interested in drugs for various reasons. But actually it was in the 90s, you know, and it was dance culture, the raves and all the scaremongering around ecstasy. And, you know, there's the term, you know, like it was a shooting fish in a barrel, sort of arresting people for drugs was quite easy. But also it, it, what's the word I'm looking for? They were they were seen as more important. The arrests for drugs were more important than other stuff because it was seen as such as this big, huge problem. And because of the increase in crime related to it, you know, a lot of services did this. They created a special operations and I joined at CID and they did special operations, particularly around drugs. So, you know, the classic, you arrest someone, the possession of drug. You're not really interested in that, particularly, but where did they get the drug from? You know, if you help us out, we'll help you out. You know, we'll give you a course, you know, that sort of bribery, getting more information to get the bigger, bigger fish was what led to sort of the the operations that I worked on, collecting information, targeting people and carrying out operations. And with that, obviously the huge amount of money that was put into drug squads. You know, at the time when I was in the police, you know, I did believe I was doing the right thing. I thought drugs were dangerous and the people that I were involved with, obviously, the criminality involved in it and the crime involved in it, I thought I was doing the right thing. And I didn't sort of start thinking about it till many years later, you know, of that revolving door, because actually if I'd thought about it, it would have been, this is never ending. You know, this, you know, but sort of for ticking boxes and very much on results and arrests and drug arrests, you know, as many operations as we could put together, we would get arrests related to drugs. So there was a never ending supply of that. And I, you know, at the time I was very young, you know, I thought, you know, this is all ticking boxes. This is a success. This shows how good we are. Not really thinking about, you know, the supply and demand angle of actually, it doesn't matter how many times I do this, how many X, Y and Z people in the area I arrest, there is always somebody else to replace that. There's already somebody else to arrest. It's never ending. So, you know, like I said, so that, you know, I got into doing, I mean, nowhere near as in depth as Neil did in undercover operatives, but I did do quite a few undercover operative operations, too many operations in that sentence, which again, some people criticize because I know how, you know, PTSD and how it has affected people that have done that in depth. But my sort of involvement of it, it was quite, it was exciting. I found it exciting. And the thrill of it, you know, going into a club, taking on this persona, you know, and that, you know, I mean, I was very good at pretending to be somebody else, you know, tracking down who's doing what, who's supplying what, where that goes to, where they go to in the club and eventually, you know, lead into a big operation of closing the club down. And this particular club, I think was closed down three or four times within the history that I know in the area. So, but again, like you're saying, it wasn't until actually I got into recovery that I actually started thinking about what did I actually do? What is law enforcement's involvement here? And that was more to do with the people that I see. So I got into recovery through mutual aid groups. It's a 12-set program. It works for me. But what I did find was, well, it doesn't, it doesn't for a lot of people. And one of the biggest issues I find, particularly when it's to do with drugs, as in illicit drugs, you know, alcohol as a drug, is the criminalization of people that even when they have gone through the, I can't even put into words the hidden, you know, of problematic substance use. I mean, 24 seven. You get your life together. You sort in your, basically, you sort in your shit out a bit, looking at your own responsibility. And then when you try to maybe, I don't go to college, get a job, anything like that. Criminalization, having a criminal record for drugs stops you. It cuts your chances down. You know, I can't, there's no studies I don't think. I know it's done a bit, it hugely impacts you. Because again, it's one of these things that people don't know, and I was speaking to people the other day about it, of once you have a drug related record, that never gets taken off. You know, so things like murder, after so many years, you can get that expunged off your record, drugs isn't, and that's crazy. Why is that? You know, why is that when something you do when you're 20, and you know, you get arrested and cautioned, stays on your record for the rest of your life. It's, you know, and that's just one little craziness of the whole drug policy scenario. But like you're saying, problematic substance use, getting into recovery, the criminalization, it's very impactful. Impact is not even the right word to use for it. You know, it's devastating for people. So I'm just conscious, Suzanne, we're kind of covering a lot of ground. Yes. Can we just take it piece by piece? So PE teacher, that makes me smile because about five years ago now, our PE teacher from school died. He was called Ashley, hello to anyone that might have known him. It was a wonderful chat. He had two fixed places in life. One was the football field. Where I don't think he ran further than five meters that way or five meters that way. For the 40 years he was at the school, the other place was at the bar in the pub. Every single night, cigarette in ham without fail. I don't know if this passes this day and age, but yeah, I just, I find stuff like this fascinating. When you've got a job like that, for example, if you've been out raving the night before or that week, you don't have to rock up and run around a football pitch or be doing anything that's like, or maybe you do, maybe it's like an easier than being in the classroom or something, but it just seems like quite a demanding profession to be a PE teacher. You've constantly got to be dressed in the fizz rig and out there supervising some sport. Yeah, I mean, for me, my problematic use of alcohol and drugs didn't come till very much later. I mean, I recognise now my addictive behaviours so I was very much addicted to exercise. So for me, it was very, my first addictions of choice, if you like, was food and exercise and they were very much intertwined. And I was very good at work and play and I had that line of, so during the week I worked, did what I needed to do as a PE teacher, but then at the weekend, I would play quite hard as well but managed to get it all together for a thumb-up, thumb-and-a-day morning. My husband's actually from Middlesbrough so I was very much involved in, people remember tall trees, the Kirk, the sugar shack, very big sort of dance scene clubs. So because that was sort of out of my teaching area, I could let my hair down and be a completely different person too. Monday morning, right, we are doing hockey or gymnastics or cross-country or that. So I was very good at, I was disciplined. There was a line, there was a line, a moral line and I didn't cross it at that time anyway. The lines got crossed a lot later on. Yeah, well, so what's the kind of brief then when you're in the station and you've got to go in a, do you have to dye your hair or? No, I mean, luckily, I look very different on a night out than I do in the uniform and the rest. So people don't, even like people that I work with when we started going out on a night out they wouldn't recognise me. So that was a really good advantage. I was good at playing that part because I was into the dance scene and I didn't do drugs regularly then. I sort of knew my topic if you like. So I knew how to mix in and also it is a lot easier. Well, I found it as a female to start chatting to a bloke who's on your list, you've got the photograph, that's him, to work your way around, to be certainly, whatever tactic that you use to start a conversation with them. So that bit I sort of found quite easy and like I said, I liked pretending to be somebody else because I never wanted to be me anyway, so. Couldn't people tell though that you weren't off your head? God, it was a while ago. No, it doesn't, they did. That might be because maybe they were a bit more off their head than I was sort of acting. So, you know, or I think, you know, like say anything one time that they were sort of saying, you know, saying along those lines and just said, yeah, because I haven't taken anything yet. Oh, OK. Yeah, because for people listening and I should just point out here for friends listening, we're talking this for the purposes of education, you know. As a veteran, we're in a veteran suicide epidemic. So clearly, a lot of people out there are leaving the forces, falling on their ass with drinking drug problems. Drink, as you'll hear me say every time, is the worst drug, right? My two, two of my best friends drank themselves to death. It's a horrible, it's a horrible chemical. But, you know, we need to shed light in this area. If we do what our previous generations did, which is just sweep all this under the carpet, right? All we're doing is condemning our children to just further misery and further lack of education, further restricting that their opportunities in life because they're getting sold a narrative that's just not true or maybe bits of it are true, but it's really unhelpful. You know, when you start suffering with addiction, you need to recognise it and you need to recognise it quick. You might not be able to do anything about it, which was my case. You know, I knew I was on a ride. Took me on a ride for 30 years, right? I'm OK with that, right? But what wasn't helpful is I had to do it all on my own because of all the no one from the previous generation had anything constructive to help me with. Society had nothing, you know, there was like one. I think there was one drug service, Suzanne, you know, and and basically all they tried to do was just prescribe you on to something else. There was no depth of understanding. So again, for our friends listening, we're talking about this for the purpose of education. We don't recommend anyone lives to the life that the way that I have or Suzanne has, as always say, you live your life, I'll live mine and then we'll be fine, won't we? So sorry, Suzanne, just gone on another rant there. But no, but it is it's really important. And that's, you know, I would love to see harm reduction, proper drugs education in in schools. And, you know, and that's like, you know, you know, in school, the teacher I taught that, you know, the sex education, health education and we seriously need some harm reduction education on drugs in schools because it's very serious. It's and, you know, one of the things that really annoys me is like, oh, you can't do that because that's normalising drug, drug taking. And it's just like we need to get real that taking drugs is normal. It has been throughout history, ancient Greeks. There's always been an element of drug taking of whatever that is throughout history. What we need to do now is make it safe. Or like, you know, I'd say to kids, no, don't if, you know, if you've got choice, don't. But the reality is that they do. So if they are going to do that, here's how to be as safe as possible. And because of prohibition, you know, they don't know what they're taking. You know, all of that. You know, so it's, you know, people need to wake up. You know, they do not. It's a bit like, you know, the same, you know, from problematic substance use and, you know, 24 set, end up with 24 seven drinker. You know, people don't realise the depths that I went. Maybe you went to to get what we needed and where we did it. That we have kids in school. I'm not saying every school, every school will have an issue with drugs, whether they know that or not, it is everywhere. And there's always a drug dealer at the school gates. There's kids take selling them in the toilets, wherever that is happening. And we need we're never going to stop that. But how can we make it as safe as possible? You know, educate our kids aren't stupid. My kids know so much more than I. We've kind of in this area, Suzanne, you've only got your hands tied behind your back a bit, haven't you? Yeah, I mean, it is it's big business. And, you know, that in America, you know, it is, you know, it's profitable to keep your prisons full. And that is, you know, that is seeping into the into the UK as well. And, you know, and I must be clear here, you know, people that break the law that, you know, violent crimes, they need to be locked up. You know, I'm not saying, oh, we let everybody run free and all the drug, you know. It's important, you know, the people that need to be locked up are locked up. But our prisons are full of people that are locked up because they have an illness and because of that illness is forced them down the criminal route. You know, it's something like 67% of the male population in prison are there related to problematic substance use related crimes. It's they need treatment, help, not criminalize and put in a cage where they're just left. The left. Yes. Let's let's just peel back again. So when you're in the club as an undercover officer, did you have any, you know, did anyone ever call you out? Were there any sort of frightening times we put? Oh, my God, we need to get out of here quick. No, I was I was pretty lucky, you know, we would. There are various operations where I was where I was sent on my own, which I think were the more scary ones. And they were sort of the ones where we've got information on such and such. I would say that drove a taxi, lives here, he's dealing from here, where I'd have to go and call what called cold call. So, you know, you get mic'd up and then you literally just sent off to go and call on the door and get information and enough evidence to be able to arrest and charge in. I mean, I, you know, it was relatively new, although no undercover buying had been gone for a while because of the influx of the rave scene and the drugs. It was, I can't remember what I was going to say. It was getting more, more common. And, you know, like I said before, you know, I find I found the challenge quite exciting and but to be honest, looking back now, what I did, I wouldn't do that today because it'd be very unsafe. So I found myself in a situation where I am in a toilet with a couple of guys getting some coke and sort of trying to pretend to take it but not take it and then get out again. That was really stupid of me, but I was sort of driven by that. Oh, let's get, you know, this is, you know, sort of the level of drugs, you know, cannabis, xc, cocaine. Oh, so if you've got a supply of cocaine, you must have other stuff, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I did put myself in and that was my choice. You know, that was silly. It was naive, but again, driven by, oh, let's get, let's get the bigger fish. This will lead to the bigger fish, which led me to do an unsafe practice, which, you know, I would not do today. I don't know whether, to be honest, I don't think you'd be allowed to do it today. You know, I'd like to think there's a lot more backup and support for under corruptives than there was, you know, we did make some of it up as we went along because it hadn't been really done before. Yes. And did you have any? What you'd referred to as successes, were there any big, big busts? I mean, yes, we did. I mean, it was the work that we did from the operation is then sort of put into the intelligence pool to gather more operation and sort of one of the bigger ones. And I can't remember the names of people because there's so many of them is we got to a certain level, but we actually had to stop because it was an operation that was being led by Interpol, sort of the bigger guys, if you like. And that led to a huge kingpin being arrested somewhere in Europe, whatever. You know, but part of the work that we did was put towards that. But I mean, I look back on it. It's again, it's the politics within within as well, that sort of you know, we couldn't then arrest these guys that were causing issues with drugs in our area because we had Interpol looking at the next bigger guys in the area. And then when it got to them, you know, you see it on the telly and it's not quite as dramatic and all that, but it's sort of like, OK, if you give us this so the bigger guys, you give us this information on this bigger guy, we will then protect you. You'll get less sentence or or even you'll get a new identity in another country, you know, that the people. What I'm trying to say is so the people. The big, big organized crime gangs that the leaders or whatever it is, they never actually get. The right sentence, they they they don't actually pay for their crime. It is always the poor guy or woman on some. Estate, high, you know, high in employment. Those though they're the ones that are paying the price for. The bigger organized crime that, you know, it's depressing. It makes me depressed thinking about it because it's mad, isn't it? To think so ineffective. It's so ineffective. It's like, you know, if it was any business, you know, if if you if you looked at law enforcement solely to do with drugs as a business, it would never have got past its first five years. And here we are, you know, 50 years later from the misuse of drugs at 1971, putting more money in, more resources. I mean, the police, you know what, as well, I have to say, you know, the police are good at catching drug dealers and we were good at it. But the problem being is it's an endless supply. So we have to think smarter and it's not that we don't have the money. It's because the money that we do have is misspent in the wrong places. I think, I mean, it is, isn't it? It all, you know, for me, there's no black and white. It's all all pretty, pretty gray. And I sort of try, you know, for me personally, what somebody chooses to put in their body on a Friday, Saturday night or ever is is up to them. It's their personal choice. And, you know, this is where we come in just a bit, bit, bit, bit of the mis, misuse, using substances, misuse of substances. And for me, if you put something into your body out of your choice to pleasure seat, because that's what human body, you know, we're wide for that pleasure seeking time out does not cause any negative consequences to anybody else. It's sort of like fill your boots. It's when, you know, misuse comes in for me is when they're there. There are negative consequences to your use of a certain drug. And, you know, some of those, you know, we, we learned, you know, that's part of growing up is, you know, we learned, oh, I had a bit too many vodkas on Friday. I've got a minging hangover. I won't do that again until next time. That might be months later, or, you know, for me, and it's a bit extreme, but, you know, for me, going out and then the next thing I know I'm waking up in a police cell, that's not good, you know, that, you know, but, you know, I know I was in the depth and it's one of those things it's like, well, how is it? There's a very, very blurred bit of when did I step over that line? My own moral line. And, you know, how did I get from here to drinking a bottle of wine and I or whatever to cope with my job, whatever, and functioning to a 24 seven drinker that would wake up in police cell that wouldn't know what they'd done. And the only thing that they knew is that I, I needed, I needed to switch off again and reach for whatever was around at seven o'clock in the morning, nine o'clock, whenever, you know, and that's what people find quite hard to get the head around of like, well, come on. And, and it's like, problematic substance use, I would, you know, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It is the, it's, it's, I can't even describe and it is and I appreciate it's hard for people to get their head around. Oh, you know, this thing is willpower. Just don't do it. And it's like, if I could not just not do it. Don't you think I would? And it's just, you know, the shame, the guilt, the remorse that you have, you know, particularly as a female and with kids, you know, I was the worst of the worst in the, you know, in the stigma ranking. She can't, she can't even stop doing it for her kids. She's a terrible mother. It's like, I need help. I don't need more stigmatization and to be felt even shitter than I do. And people, they don't, I don't, I don't know, do they need to get it? It's that compassion and empathy people need to, to try and apply because. So going back to your story, Suzanne, did you, I'm guessing what, did you start as a social? Yeah, I mean, you know, hindsight's a great thing. And I could look back and I've done a lot of work on myself and out of my own interests, you know, the whole argument, is it nature, nurture, trauma, you know, for me? And I wanted the other answers because it was just like, I wanted to know why, why me? The answer is why not me, but also that it doesn't actually matter what I know. I know what's fundamentally was wrong with me and I know what to do about it today. You know, and for me, it's abstinence based, you know, and that works for me. So the, for me, you know, I, you know, I was a farmer's daughter. I was brought up in the countryside, hated it. Um, I said, the isolation always, you know, always for as long as I first can remember, I always felt different. I always felt I didn't quite fit in, you know, and it's not, you know, I had friends, you know, I was into sports, I was on teams and all the rest of it, but I just felt this little thing of fear. And if people actually really knew me, they wouldn't like me. And, and, you know, it was age 15, 16. When I first started to drink, getting drunk. And for me, it was just like, this is the answer. I can have this and I can be this person. I'm not really sure who that person, you know, what I thought people would want to see want to be. So, you know, I was that loud outgoing dancing. I'll stay up all night. I'll, I'll try that. Let's do this. And it just ticked all my boxes. It made me feel comfortable in my own skin. And, you know, and I managed to do that for a long, long time. You know, I, I, I realize now I always, I always drank problematically because I always drank to get drunk. I never, I was never like, oh, let's go out and have a little glass of chianti or whatever it is you want to do, or a nice little whiskey. It was like, I'll have that, but I need all that. I need to get drunk. I don't, I don't do, I don't do middle ground. It's all or nothing. And so if, so if I couldn't have anything, A, I probably wouldn't have gone out. Um, I wouldn't bother. But when I went out, had it, it was just, yeah, like I'd come home. I was, again, it was pretending. It wasn't really me. It wasn't, it was me being uncomfortable in my own skin, trying to fit in, being what I thought people wanted me to be and all those, you know, social pressures growing up and, and so for me, like the illicit drugs were not an issue. They weren't my substance of choice. I mean, when I went out and I had them, I had great times, but for me, alcohol was my, um, substance of choice because for me it was, well, at that time, you know, I could just go to the corner shop, get it and come back quickly. You know, I'm actually quite fortunate that my drug use didn't get more problematic because I wouldn't, I wouldn't have needed to leave the house at all now and it would be cheaper. You know, um, that's the scary thing, the accessibility of, of, um, drugs and, and the variety, you know, like saying when I was out in the nineties, when, when it was like an ecstasy, you know, a good ecstasy tablet, you know, you're talking 10, 15 quid. Now, like, you know, like you're saying, you could get probably 20, 15 of them, um, and, and disease is ordering a pizza, which is just crazy. It's crazy. And, you know, and that line, that line, like I said before, it's a bit blurry, but I just, you know, um, mental health issues. Um, you know, obviously, like I said, you know, my, my first addictive behavior came out in eating. So I was bulimic for about 12 years, combined with an exercise addiction. Once I'd sort of got over those, dealt with those, the alcohol came in and, and, and, um, because of my low self-worth and because I was a mother and I had children and to the outside world, I felt a complete failure that, you know, once I, you know, and that moral, that moral boundary that we have, right? Okay, I'm never going to drink drive. You know, I hated drink drivers in the police. It was like, yes, get them off the streets. I was never going to do that. I did it. I got away with it. I'd crossed that boundary. It was so almost like I've let myself down in my own moral grab, moral levels. Well, I've done that. Well, it doesn't matter. I'll do it again. And then I did get caught and, and then once I'd got caught, the shame, the guilt, the remorse that just got worse and worse and worse that I just couldn't face myself, let alone anybody else that led me to, I just wanted to, to numb out. I didn't want a single ounce of reality. I couldn't deal with it. I could not deal with it. Um, and obviously, you know, having kids and all of that just crushed me. And, you know, for me, I did, you know, I did, I tried to take my own life several times because I just couldn't see a way out. I just couldn't see and, and, and the help. Just it was, yeah, I was just crushed and I didn't, I couldn't see a way out anymore. At what point did this start to conflict with your work then? Well, luckily, luckily for me, I actually, I left the police force and I wasn't using problematically then at all. And I actually went back to university. I went and did a degree in fashion marketing. And it was really when I started my degrees, well, I was pregnant with my first child. And, and, and I managed, I managed to spin all the plates and, you know, put myself into immense pressures, you know, going back as a mature student, I had my first child. I just got married. I started, I then, I then towards the end of that, of that degree, I sort of noticed, oh, I'm drinking quite a bit, you know, like a bottle of wine a night, but it's OK because I know such and such does that and it's OK because there isn't negative consequences. You know, I was managing to get up, I was managing to look after the kids, the whole rest of it. And. And I really, I suppose, you know, just like had a breakdown at, you know, after finishing that degree. And then I started going back to work again. I started to go back into teaching because that was the easiest thing to do to get some money in with young kids. And this was the frustration of not being able to do what I wanted to do. Too scared to do it, living in fear. I don't know what I'm doing. It's all too much. I'm a crap mum. And, you know, I find being a mum that is the hardest job in the world. It is really hard. You know, I love my kids and but it's hard. I find it hard. I'm not a natural mother. But I'm a much better mother now. Than than I ever was due to get into recovery and 12 sets and all the rest of it. But just I suppose and I think that's something people don't get. All the external stuff that people seem to be able to. Seem to be able to live, you know, you know when you're sitting and you watch people go by and you think, how do they, how do they do that? I wonder what their life's like. And I'm like struggling and I can't cope. And it's all too much. And, you know, and I'm having to medicate myself, numb myself out. You know, I didn't get how to live. I did. I didn't seem to have that book. Everyone, everyone. I know it's not everyone else because you realise that it isn't so many of a struggling and that's part of the problem because we're all out there struggling and it's getting better that people are talking out about it. You know, like struggling to be a mum. You know, just because we're female doesn't mean that we're naturally capable of looking after. Kids. Yeah. Hindsight and, you know, a lot of reading and studying, you know, I have changed my view on a lot of things. And, you know, for me, I understand myself better than I ever have done or ever did. And I understand. You know, it's like saying, I don't like the words using addict. You know, it's stigmatising, you know. So I try to say problematic substance use. But I know that I have to be very wary of substances that. So, for example, I've got an issue with my back taking back medication. You know, I'm actually quite lucky that the stuff that I can take when I need to take it doesn't affect me because if it affects my head, it's that addictive. Ooh, what would two do? What would three do? So I know that I need to leave. You know, when I say in abstinence-based life, you know, I drink coffee. I smoke cigarettes, you know. I'm not drug-free abstinence drinking green stuff every morning and, you know, doing my yoga practice. And I shouldn't say that, actually, because that's a bit disturbing. Whatever works for you works for you. Now, for me, abstinence-based program is the only thing that worked for me. And I do think that if you have an issue, being abstinence from that particular substance for a little while would be very beneficial to look at. So you take the drug away, you're left with yourself. You know, say it's an inside job. I'm really lucky that, you know, obviously the 12-set program, you know, it's God, it's a cult, whatever. If that's what you want to think about it, that's up to you. For me, I didn't have an issue with God. I'm a more spiritual person. It works for some people. It's like, I think it works for some people. It doesn't work for others. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm sort of like, I can get a bit jealous, actually, when, you know, I've traveled to a lot of conferences about product substance use, recovery, doing self-discovery stuff of where someone has put their substance of choice down, whatever it be. But then they can, so like say they put alcohol down and they can occasionally have a spliff. You know, I'm like, how do you do that? Because my head would, I could probably do that. But then I'd want to do it again. And then the next day, the next day, you know, I understand. But I, you know, I know that. Exactly like you're saying. Some people can put that down. Absence for a while, get to themselves. And then they may find that actually they can have a spliff. They can do whatever they want to do. And, and, you know, for me, you know, there are negatives to it. Obviously there are, you know, it is, you know, it's once, when someone picks up, uses again, and they're lucky enough to get back in. And, you know, it's a one-off or whatever. There's no negative, you know, then it's like, and then they're so hard on themselves. Like, exactly like you're saying, it's like, hang on a minute. So even if it's like, you know, you've been in here three months. In three months, you haven't had anything. And this happened. And so you resorted to, you know, drinking half a bottle of vodka, you know, whatever it was. That time is not wasted. You know, the time before that, you were drinking a bottle of vodka a day. So, you know, it is achievable. But, you know, let's look at what actually was going on there for you. You know, generally it tends to be, you know, emotional stuff, trauma, childhood, you know, unfortunately it does follow us around. So, you know, I'm very open. It's like, recovery is... Are we saying that the 12-step programme does recognise lapses and relapses? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, again, they do, you know, they call it, you pick up a piece again, they call it a relapse. But for me, and the friends that I have within, you know, the mutual aid group, you know, we have similar, that's why we're friends because we have similar thinking about it, of like, you recognise it. But, you know, for me, I've said, you know, see it for what it is. You know, it's not all that time is down the drain and it's wasted. It's like, so what can we maybe... You know, it's like, say, what can we learn from that? You know, what is it that you didn't do? Was it that maybe you... You didn't ring, like, for me, like, I didn't ring my sponsor in and talk it through. Because you know, it's something like me, you know, I'm like, from 0 to 100. And the whole world's falling apart when actually... It's, you know, I dropped a glass. You know, something frivolous is like that, but it's like, it's never about the glass, you know, it's like the hair that broke the camel's back. It's never about that. It's like all this other stuff that I can recognise that I was building up to. And that's just like, you know, it's all over, I want out, I want, you know, and I still get, I still get, you know, oh, God, it'd be so nice just to numb out. I just want to numb, you know, in this pandemic. Oh, my God, I, you know, it's not that I just stop wanting to use a drink. It's just, I know the negative consequences. It wouldn't work out like it does for other people. Yeah. Can I, I just want to clarify here for everybody, I'm not knocking the 12-step, that's not what I'm trying to highlight where it became problematic when I was a substance misuse specialist, right? And also, the other thing was, it was the language that I could hear these, the 12-step is using was just, how fucking dare you call me addict, you know? Why don't you call me pilot, skydiver, best-selling author, global traveler, podcast host, dead of it, you know? Yeah, I hate, I hate the language, and it's really difficult, I hate the language, and I might be, oh, it's not really, I was going to, and you can cut this out because it's not relevant, but it's just like, I can't bare Russell Brand, because hear the language that he uses and talks, refers to himself about is, I can't bare him. I think there's a great lesson to be learned there, that someone that maybe people perceive has got it all. Personally, for me, and this is not a personal attack against Russell Brand, not in any way what's informed, but like, it's someone that has that much contempt for their life experiences and basically themself. It's, I just don't see anything good from it, Suzanne, you know? All the stupid stuff I've done, with the exception of when I've hurt people, I'm very proud of all my life experiences, you know? I haven't done anything wrong, ever, right? And the reason I say that is, you just got to meet my little boy, right? He's the most perfect child, right? He was ever born in history, right? Nature has created this little fella and then gone, do you know what? We're going to give him to Chris Rule, right? That is how perfect my life has played out and that people think they can come in, you know, people like Russell Brand think that I should have changed my life and that I wouldn't now have my little boy. It's just, it's such a weird way of thinking, you know? It's, we're just a process of, you know, we're a product of the process, aren't we? Yeah, and it is, yeah, I'm a product of my parents and their parents, their parents and I, you know, luckily now with social, you know, which must have been out there, you know, I really like Gabon Mate's work on trauma and the link between trauma and problematic substance use. You know, but we have to remember it, it's like, you know, the why me. I know people that have had a lot more traumatic upbringing than me that aren't problematic substance users. You know, they've managed to work it out and get through life and deal with life without having to resort to the lengths that I went to. You know, it's not, and it's not that because someone has experienced this level of trauma, so whether, you know, you're looking at such, you know, for example, she's like child abuse, you know, hideous stuff, awful, awful stuff that should never happen to a child. My childhood trauma, you know, it's not a competition and I can feel, my trauma, I can feel as much as someone next to me who has been through a lot worse, as much if not more than them. And the problem is, you know, we've all suffered from trauma and what we try to do is numb that pain, numb that emotional pain. So, you know, so, you know, it's like you're saying it gets into a competition of, well, I trump you with your, you know, that experience with my domestic violence experience or whatever, it's the individual and we're just, we're all people that are in extreme emotional pain and the solution that we had for that, you know, alcohol and the drugs stopped working. And now, because I understand myself more and, you know, I'm the problem because I kept putting this stuff into me trying to get a different result and actually it's coming to terms with and the one thing I always wanted was to be comfortable in my own skin, which sounds a bit ridiculous, but, you know, that's all I wanted and for most of the time today I am and that's, you know, that's priceless and I don't have to use a substance to do that. It's, you know, it's down that self-esteem, self-worth. I deserve a life. I deserve a life as much as the person next to me, which is when we're in it, we feel that we don't and everyone else is deserving and it's not, we all deserve a decent life. Let's talk about the valuable work of Leap then. What is, what would be Leap's main aim or aims are and how successful are they being with them? Right, you know, so the end goal, you know, the, you know, to win the Oscar would be a fully regulated market of all drugs throughout the world. You know, that's the big aim. It would be a great aim to have a regulated market for all drugs in the UK because what we aim to do is to, you know, recognise that the drug policies that we have in place have created more negative consequences and harms to individuals and countries than they were ever intended to, that they're not fit for purpose and what we need to do is we need fundamental change in our drug policies to negate these negative consequences and to help the people that need to be helped and to have an efficient police service again, you know, efficient law enforcement so the police can go out and get the baddies, as we like to say, you know, the real baddies and recognise, I think, it's that people use drugs, people will always use drugs so let's have a policy in place that's fit for purpose, one that protects those that need protecting and gives the individuals the right to put something into the body that they choose to do without negative consequences. You know, it's not rocket science, it's not, you know, it's... How does it fit then with, say, Parliament? I mean, have you made any inroads there? Yeah, you know, in 2016 we actually launched the Leap UK in Westminster and each year we do sort of an activist day in June or we have done with a campaign called Anyone's Child, people that have been impacted, you know, their sons, daughters, impacted by drug policies that are in place and we are well received by politicians behind closed doors most of the time because they agree with us, you know, on a one-to-one basis, they agree, they need updating, oh, they're not okay, they're not too sure about the fully regulated market but they recognise the need that the policies need changing and then this is when, you know, the fear comes in because they're in a position of power, they don't want to step outside their party line and they want to win votes so that's when they start sort of drawing back a bit of, like, I agree with you, Suzanne, you're right but I can't do anything and then that's when I start to get a bit annoyed with them because they can and unfortunately this is the bit where, you know, when we speak to the general public, you know, they agree, most of them agree, you know, once they've heard both sides of the story and well, how, you know, well, how on earth are you going to regulate heroin? How on earth are you going to do this? You once explained the system, it's like, what can I do? And this is where it'd be like, I know it's a bit of a bore lake we need politicians, this needs to be changed, this is government, governmental level, the Home Office, what we need to do is we need to get the politicians on side and that's where you need to write a letter to your MP to ask to meet, to ask what you're going to, what you're doing about drug, you know, drug reform. You know, because drug related deaths, the highest in Western Europe, that's crazy. You know, more deaths than people killed in car accidents. You know, and, you know, it's just... It's a horrible death as well, isn't it? Oh! It's not like, you know, dying of old age or something or, I mean, even you get run over by a car and killed, that's an accident. This is people just dying in horrific, you know, watch one of your friends die of liver disease, it's freaking awful. It's, yeah, and the things that, you know, especially, like you're saying, alcohol is the most dangerous causes, the most costs to the NHS and all the rest of it. And, you know, but with drug related deaths, it is, and like a lot of alcohol related, these are preventable, the preventable deaths, you know, purely through peer support in the lock zone. But, you know, it's... Yeah, I said, you know, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's, you know, and the thought of, you know, potentially, you know, one of my children may develop problematic substance use and I hope to God by then they will be in the hands of the health system and a doctor than being locked up, you know, in a police cell and then a prison. And, yeah, I get lost for words with it because, again, it's just that, you know, I always say to people as well, it's like, if you're listening to this, if you listen to this, that everybody will know somebody that has been affected by problematic substance use and they sort of give you a look, it's like, okay, you might not actually know that fact about them, but your dad's friend, your mum's sister, your cousin, whatever, will have someone in their family or themselves suffering from problematic substance use. It's that entrenched in our society. And, again, with the stigma, you don't hear about it because it's, you know, don't tell anybody the shame and the guilt and, again, that's, you know, like mental health is getting much better at being talked about. The links between mental health and problematic substance use is, I personally don't know anybody that's sort of in recovery or in rooms that have had a problem, an issue with substance of some sort that does not have a mental health, negative mental health. It's just like, you get the package and, you know, I've just never ever seen it with some negative mental health involved. Yes, can we look at some countries where different things have worked? I mean, people often quote Portugal, don't they? You can say they've got no drug law or that's my understanding. Yeah, so it is, again, this always comes out in debates and arguments of, you know, when we talk about legal regulation, how are we going to do it? What can we do? There are solutions that can be put into place by governments that would drastically reduce and help, you know, drug-related deaths and criminalisation of people that don't need criminalised. So one of the examples that always comes up is Portugal. So Portugal, they decriminalised the possession of all drugs for personal use in 2001, you know, so it's been quite a while. And you know what, it's for the purposes that they brought that law in, there was a massive opiate death, heroin crisis, looking at, so basically looking at the population, we have all these people dying, these people that are dying, they need help, treatment, support and the other people that are choosing to use drugs, they just sort of need maybe a bit of education, a bit of guidance and maybe a bit of support. So what they did is they said, right, what we're going to do is we're going to decriminalise possession. So then, but that doesn't mean that you can go around and take whatever you want, wherever you want, just if you're stopped on the streets and you have your drug of choice in your pocket and it's not deemed enough to be a supply, you're a bit further investigation's done, so is this a problem? Do you need help with this or is this just your personal use? And they're given sort of like a ticket fine and sent to what they call a dissuasion court, which is where there is, again, is it a problem? Again, an opportunity for you to ask for help and if you need help, you get it, you know, imagine that. And if it's not, then, you know, a bit of education, time, place, setting, where you're doing it, what you're taking, all the rest of it, and then you sent basically to get on with it. So what, but what they did do is they ring fenced a huge amount of money for their health system to reinvigorate their health system. So the people that need the help and treatment can get it. So you can get sent to a treatment centre, you can get sent to a rehab, you know, like a 24-7 rehab. We don't have a 24-7 rehab in the northeast of England. We don't have one. And for some people, I'm sure, like you're aware, is that's actually what they need. They need taken out of the environment they're in and put into another environment where they cared for and they can look after themselves and people can look after them. I mean, unfortunately, the system gets a bit broken because once you're being to rehab and you go back out, if you then throw back into where the environment you came from, the chances of you not relapsing are pretty slim. So I've gone off the top slightly of Portugal. So, you know, decriminalisation is doable and I would like to see that in the UK. So basically, 90% of people that use drugs that do so without negative consequences can carry on and do that without the fear of criminalisation. The 10% that do have problems, it would be nice and issues that they would get the help and treatment that they need rather than stick in a prison cell. Is that much different to here though? I mean, my understanding is in the UK, I mean, if you're stopped by the police and searched and you've got, let's say, just less than a quarter of a hash on you, then they're not going to do anything. Or do they still give you a caution and that's problematic? This is a slight issue. In the UK, obviously, England and Wales, the police services and then Scotland's difference, Scotland Police is separate. And obviously, we have all these different areas that make up police services, like North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Northumbria, Cumbria, and they're all run by the chief constable. And really, it goes on what policies the police in their area see they should prioritise. So in some areas, you will... So like, for example, Durham, it's a very small police service. A diversion scheme called Checkpoint, which is if you're arrested with drug possession, you can be diverted to health care professionals and treatment rather than down the criminal avenue. The chief constable, Mike Barton, who was great, who was very pro-drug reform, very dissuaded his police officers. Like he said, you're on the street. I do not want to see you bringing in people arrested for a tiny amount of cannabis for their personal use. I'm not interested. Let them get on with it. But you still get other police services whereby they don't necessarily dissuade them or actively dissuade the arrests. I don't want to say encourage, because I can't speak for them. But there's disparities between police services. In one area, you could get arrested for a small amount of cannabis. And in others, you may not. In some areas, you may get cautioned. In others, you may get charged. And again, that's the problem, is there isn't any... There isn't like a baseline that everybody sticks to. And then, in London, you're eight times more likely to be stopped and searched if you're black and ethnic minority. There's those massive disparities that still continue. And again, go back in history, and it's on false... Yeah, okay. That if you're black, you're going to be smoking cannabis or whatever, it's just all crap. It's all crap that society and miseducation and people's prejudices, which you get in the police, you still get that. You know, I'd like to think it's a lot better than it was. But, you know, it's like being in the services, you are indoctrinated. You know, you're either in it or you're not. So either... You know, for me, I was one of the very... There wasn't that many female police officers at the time. And, you know, and I was very much... I had to man up. I had to become one of the boys. You know, I had to be in there in the fights and arresting people to be accepted. And, you know, that culture... I'd like to think it's not as bad as it was when I was in. I think it is better in some areas, because, you know, I quite easily believe that in some it's not. Yeah, got you. What can we say for people then, Suzanne, maybe law enforcement officers that are watching this, if they want to get involved or they have stories to tell, if they'd like to support LEAP, what should they be doing? Yeah, so the easiest thing to do is go to the website, www.ukleap, so that's ukleap.org. That would take you to the UK website. And it would bring up, you know, it's also interesting to go on to the LEAP USA as well. It's just because there's lots of information on them, on both of them, you know, a bit of history about, you know, sort of learning about the subject a bit more of, you know, ultimately, if you believe that our drug laws are outdated and you want some accountability and you want your politician to change, then, is to write a letter to your MSP saying, I would like to discuss the issue of problematic substance use and drugs in my area. And what I'd say is if you do that and you've got a letter back and you go, oh my God, I don't know what I'm going to say or what I'm going to do with the politician, you know, there's contacts on the LEAP website that I'd say, just send an email, I'm happy to talk to anybody about what to say to your politician. And it's not facts and figures, it's the human stories that the important ones, you know, because who remembers facts and figures? And do you know what? Even if you think regulation, absolutely no way, read about it, you know, look at sort of what's going on in the world. You know, Canada, the police chiefs have just backed decriminalisation of personal use of all drugs. You know, you have Colorado where you have the legalised and regulated market of cannabis. There's all these places that are implementing and changing their drug policies to be fit for purpose. And you know, and it's like when we talk about Portugal and, you know, that's 2001, people have no idea to go to Portugal and have no idea that it's been decriminalised. You know, the sky hasn't fallen in. We haven't got people lying around, gouching out everywhere, you know, it doesn't happen because most people are responsible adults and behave accordingly. Yes, and goes back to what we've said at the beginning that just because you decriminalised everything, you know, maybe you made it like you could go to the co-op and get substances over the counter from the pharmacy for free. It doesn't mean everyone's going to go and do that. And secondly, the vast majority of those who do are not going to let that affect their weekly life. You know, they're not going to go, oh, do you know what? The government have decriminalised substances. So I'm going to go out and get myself a massive problem, lose my family, lose my, because people won't be predisposed to not everyone's predisposed to addiction. This is a myth, you know, this gateway, this whole gateway argument, it's just a myth. People, you know, childhood, adverse childhood experiences are generally the driver behind addiction, you know? And again, it is, it's, you know, that was like cannabis is a gateway drug. It's, you know, the problem being is, you know, like alcohol is regulated. We need strict regulation on alcohol, you know, minimum pricing. You can't get it down your local post office. You're all these things. It's, it's for kids under the age of 18 to get an illicit drug is very simple and no one asks for their ID. No one cares whether from what they're doing, how they're taking all the rest of it. There's too much money in it for them. They are very happy to be selling anything to any kid, whatever age, if they get the money, they don't care. And what would you rather have? You know, regulated market where you know what you're getting or something that's going to potentially kill you. And to a degree, that's coming true anyway because the dark web is very self-regulated. People might be surprised to hear that, but it's just buying substances on the dark net. It's like going on eBay. If you start to muck people around and try and rip people off, you get a bad, people just mark you off as a button and then no one will go to you. So it has to be the top quality stuff as advertised, you know, delivered promptly. And if it's not on these sites, it's so untold, you raise a dispute, you know, and that person then has got three days to answer it. I was really surprised, you know, again, I'm always open to learning new things and having my mind changed if... And it was a guy called Dr. X who's based in Spain who does a lot of the dark net sort of research and it was a talk on the dark net as harm reduction. And I was like, I want a minute. And exactly that, that what is happening now is you've got a supplier of this substance and then the reviews on it and the person's appliance saying, this is how much you take. These are, if you're looking for these effects, this is what it is. You know, you take this amount then, you know, again, time setting that you're in. And it really was harm reduction, so the person that buys the substance gets the best possible experience, which is what you want, what they want from it. They get the best possible substance. It's an environment and that sounds a bit like, you know, I think that would be a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow like the dark net to do harm reduction. But it's like, yeah, but also they have to do this because of the, again, the whole legality of drugs. So this is, you know, and this is information that again, harm reduction for students that are out there, this is what they need. They need to do what they want to do. If they choose to do it, I say, I'm not encouraging it. I would say, no, don't, but if you're going to do it, how can you do it as safe as possible? And always, always, if anything is not quite right, you ring an ambulance straight away. You know, that's, you know, I'm not encouraging drug use. It's just, I personally, I had some great top experiences taking drugs. The rest of it didn't really quite work out for me, but I wouldn't change those experiences. I think like you said earlier, people, places, the feel, you know, amazing experiences that have led me to where I am today. You know, for me, I now live in abstinence based life. That's just how I, I need to live, you know, but that's okay. You know, that's not like, oh, feel sorry for me. It's just, you know what, I had some great times and I've still got those. But you know, today I lead an abstinence based, I say abstinence based coffee, cigarette, you know, blah, blah, but I am not a guru. You're still working on those? Yeah, always working, always working on there. It would be all right if it wasn't for everybody else. So if somebody else could be the problem. On that note, I'm going to thank you ever so much. Fascinating, fascinating chat. Thank you for your work that you're doing in this area. It really is legendary. People don't, the word hero just gets banded around in society now. And as a veteran, I can tell you how just misused it is. It's just become so facile to use that. But the work you're doing actually is the hero work, you know, it's what's going to save, ultimately save lives. It's going to enlighten people as to the reality of what, what substance use is, what the dangers are, what, what, you know, all this kind of stuff that, that we just don't really know much about. And then when people do realize that, oh, actually, I'm one of the ones susceptible to addiction. And I'm starting to see, they'll be able to relate their experience to this kind of stuff that we're saying. So it doesn't just, like for me, come as a bolt out the blue. It wasn't even like a, but it's so in, it's so. What's the word surreptitian, you know, it's so slow. What's happening to him before you know it, you're in this world that you don't even know how you got there. And nobody around you went back 25 years. No one around me could go, Chris, this is what's happening. All they could do is try and scare me, get me to change my behavior, tell me I was a, you know, stigmatize it even more. Right. So, so Suzanne, thank you. Thank you. Like anything else, Chris? Just going to shout out. I'm like saying, I'm happy to talk and, you know, it isn't, it's that thing like, you know, it's that slow drip in the bathroom, isn't it? With, with primary substance use before you, well the ceiling falls in and it's like, how the hell did that happen? Yes. You know, like saying for me, abstinence basis is the way for me, but you know, recovery is having a better life than you did before, whatever that looks like, you know, whatever works for you, great. Yeah. Well, all the rest of it is experimenting, isn't it? And you experiment to get the perfect life. And then the irony is once you get to the perfect life, you realize you don't need any of that stuff. In fact, all that stuff does is just take you down off the natural high and make life bloody hard work. I know. Yes. I'm going to put the links for Leap below our video and, and so people can, can find you. Great. Massive thank you again. Thank you for your time as well, Chris. No problem. Just, just stay on the line, Suzanne, so I can thank you properly to our friends at home. Massive love to you all. Please look after yourselves. If you can like and subscribe. That would be wonderful. And we will see you next time.