 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always not on his normal laptop, and I'll tell you why in just a moment Is Tom what's up, buddy? Hello friends. What a clickbait Like pitch open. I like that. That's nice. Thank you click here to learn why Tom is not on his normal laptop Tom is on a replacement laptop because Tom has broken his laptop once again long-time fans of the show will know that Tom is famous for breaking his laptops and This time he broke his laptop by spilling essential oils all over it Now when he told me this I was like what a gift you've given me in this this nonsense That you're trying to do here. That's not what I originally told you originally I told you I spilled essential oils on my laptop in an attempt to try to kill viruses on sure sure I understand. Yes, and I know you're not that dumb I mean you're you're using essential oils, which is your your use case is in actuality One of the few real use cases for this nonsense But at any rate. Yes, Tom in attempt Tommy's like go ahead. Yeah Yeah, so what Vince is trying to allude to is the fact that like I can't take medicine I can't take like normal painkillers. You're allergic to several painkillers a very calm condition Yes And so like I have terrible headaches and when I do get these headaches like I use essential oils to like open the Capulet whatever yeah, it helps out. It's nice But uh-huh this this time I Had walked into the bedroom and set the laptop down on the edge of the bed and began to open the essential oils As the laptop begin to slide off and so in my cat-like reflexes I reached out to grab the laptop With an open bottle of essential oils and spill them all over the whole laptop everywhere Which they immediately sucked into the laptop and that was it for that and then like all the crystal LCD like I Would like shut it off quick and turn it sideways and I'm like oh I got this And then I turned it on and it like it seeped into the LCD screen and it was just not good Yep, so luckily I Apple care has total laptop catastrophic replacement. So for a nominal fee. I got you know a very expensive laptop fix for free Well, there you go. Not free, but sure sure sure Fantastic hilarious. I love everything about this story. You're an idiot as always. All right, so This is you're one of the few people who that form of a replacement plan is such a good idea for It's I have I have used up all of my catastrophic replacements on this plan for this laptop So I'm on my as my kid said I'm on my own now. Yeah, that's what my brother my son said and my daughter said can you buy more so There you go. Yeah, you're raising wise children. I'll say that much for sure But they have so much to learn from your mistakes. So that's what's nice They can't have they say kids become the opposite of their parents. So your your children are going to be very successful in life Yes All right, so at any rate tonight, we're gonna be talking about a particular Thing that's been on my mind for a while. Tom and I we're originally gonna do a stormcast show tonight We had to reschedule our guests. Don't worry. They'll be back in a couple weeks So we will be doing stormcast so we had kind of a last-minute replacement and I was talking to Tom day about like subjects and It suddenly clicked in my mind because I've had this rant stored up for a long Time on this one and so on terrain and endless spells So I thought what better chance than in a week where we didn't have another topic So we're gonna talk about army terrain and endless spells later tonight and what what a better day to talk about it than when we get the reveal of the The big giant lizard man pyramid right of more terrain and no endless spells sure which was like the perfect combination I would argue the opposite, but we'll we'll get to that. That's what I'm being flippant when I say that it's the perfect combination Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, but first of course the news. So what do we got Tom rumor engines up on the screen? You know I start there. It is it is it's totally something's flanesce. I Agree with you my initial impression was as many people said It's like a stock right right because it does have those sorts of blades But when you look the blades do look a lot more like Celeskies like sills specifically like the blades that Eski is writing on Those back blades. They have the same curvature or the same internal like little boop boop cutout things Which brings me hopeful again, I was not expecting to be hopeful about this But all of a sudden looks like leather daddies are back on the menu boys. That's right Well, so let me say this so I reached out I was pursuing some other rumors about books that it were leaked into the wild which I I couldn't actually confirm But in that pursuit of those rumors I did come away with some really interesting like hot takes and by hot takes I mean actual leaks potentially As to the future and some of those leaks include Some interesting things about tech less Like a variable spell casting like how many spells he casts that he will be the most powerful spellcaster we have seen Yes, if those rumors prove true He is simply the best spellcaster period end of discussion Right, which like it could range from like him only casting two spells per round But never being able to be Unbound to like or multicasting up to like four per round or something and like table-wide unbinds Like what we're seeing with seraphon and similar stuff like that. So he's gonna be hot Other news or other rumor stuff Giants like doing some really interesting unique mechanics that could happen With regard to objectives and in and given stuff the boot kicking stuff around the table Which could be interesting But the more interesting rumors that I thought was was really fascinating in light of this rumor engine Was the fact that we will have an additional Slunesh release this year. Yep as well as an additional doc release or or an update of doc Let me say it that way sure Which I mean we're getting into the world where we could start seeing the part twos, right? That's that's very real We've talked about cities part two being such a low hanging fruit, right? Yeah, totally so the idea that we suddenly get other armies part twos is Very easy to believe and you know when we got slinnish originally everybody was like, oh darn it Where is all beans? Where's my mortal slinnish, right? And now all of a sudden maybe we get him as a part too Which I would dig sure that's fine. I'll spend another couple months painting slinnish. You got me You got me back in well, and I you know, I have to wonder like to be honest. I Think that we may actually see them related Okay And we had I talked about this a little bit that like I wonder if we don't get like a like a Betrayer faction of witch elves That like go cult of pleasure style like what's what like the That didn't fully recover from being in sites the nation of now like given over to it Yeah, sure right and like and especially with the malusai and like the snake stuff like all those aesthetics are just dead on And so it just makes me wonder if we get like some type of dark elf like dark elf II slinnish faction So maybe it's not full leather daddies Or I don't know maybe it is maybe the dudes are maybe the dudes are leather daddies and and the chicks in the army are Which else? Sure. No, I would dig out like I think that this is a great way to go There's so many armies that we look at and we go man It would be awesome to have an expansion to that army right where we could see additional areas of exploration Yeah, and I know the sculptors often lead the way But the reality is I think even as artists they'll often have ideas They never got to use the first time around yeah, and so it would make sense that they would there would be some things They'd want to come back to they just need to cover the essentials like the first time around they need to cover the essentials But now they can actually play with the concept right they can explore it And so I don't know really use the space, you know, yeah, they explore the space exactly so so slinnish and dock coming yeah And this could make way for the warband the underworld's dock warband that we've been hypothesizing this may fix the hero box For talk about the heroes. Oh, we'll talk about the dock getting started in a moment We'll talk about that the hero box um Yeah, I don't know like so like what I'm saying is that there could be some really interesting combinations here sure because like like the dock box is right for Let me say it this way got a better idea Maybe we have a dual box that slinnish verse daughters of cane sure Hmm the yeah, I mean it's it's a funny matchup because it's the army where the heroes do nothing Except exist and the troops do all the murdering against the army where the troops do nothing Except exist so hold points and the heroes do everything right. Yeah, right. Otherwise. They're just dark mirrors of each other I'm excited about all the giant stuff that you mentioned like so we mentioned kicking objectives around and the idea of them being a gold faction and all sorts of stuff I am not excited by the fact that there's a potential that they're impacted in some way by Obviously our you know, this is this is a fun show So we're not going to spend a lot of time on this but it does affect all portions of life which is this the current pandemic of the COVID-19 virus or whatever and you know that obviously has a huge part in china Some of the things like books and terrain and stuff like that come from china And so international shipping can be very disrupted right now And so we don't know for sure that at all that that's disrupted, but it remains a possibility That's on the table So clearly nergal's gotten another release just not the kind of we want. Yeah, not the kind we want So, you know, like that's that's just something I think we have to be aware of That it's entirely possible that at some point they are, you know, certain things like that could be delayed Sure, right. It's just it's a very real possibility. Yeah Um, that would suck. That's unfortunate. I mean, that's the least of concerns in the world around something like that, right There are much more important things to to care about But There you are. I just hope we get the giants as soon as possible. That's what I'll say Here's for here's for those things. Hopefully having already been on a boat and ready to go That's what I'm hoping So there you go So rumor engine rumor engine it's yeah, it's it's a it's a slinish part two thing I'm putting my flag in the ground And I agree with that. Um So serif on obviously are on on lock They're on pre-order this saturday finally And they are everything they are literally the Uh, the schrodinger's race there. Yeah, they're exactly they're schrodinger's lizards They are both ghosts and real So and those are two basically distinct streams within the army Let me just say that like seeing them like tease some of the rules for the real ones I'm like I I kind of like that like I kind of like everything that I've seen of the real ones They don't get the teleport, but I don't care. Sure No, I thought it was honestly interesting where it seemed like the the ghost ones play more of a little kg objective game Probably a little more like they play now. Yeah And the coalesced ones or whatever they're called right where they've become they've stuck around long enough that they've basically become real And started spawning and and whatever whatever They They feel a lot more like savage in your face like a lot more melee oriented abilities right that kind of thing um I'm still not sure. Obviously, we've only seen tiny parts of the army. So it's it's very hard to take in a To do anything and we'll we'll you know, we'll do the review obviously at some point after the book comes out um But uh, yeah, I mean I like everything I've seen Uh, we obviously got the big preview on their terrain piece today. This pyramid. Yeah, which is Theoretically the same size as the footprint of the bone tithe nexus. Yep. Okay Uh, so this is another massive terrain piece Now it is a spaceship and I like the ones that like I like the pictures they have where it's like The blue light coming out of it as the lizard men march out on the site. You know like yep Uh, they even say like whether you want yours. So and interestingly this this can be the the pieces can literally be inverted Which I'm interested to see how that works. So like one side is old and looks Vine covered and if you flip the piece it looks very fresh and clean and spacey Right, I'm excited because I'm gonna buy one without a seraphon army and I'm gonna rip the top off for bits I'm sure like like the glowy magic and then I'm gonna just use the vine covered Pyramid as like a terrain piece. Sure sure I mean seems to work just fine. Sure Uh, we saw the rules for the terrain piece. Obviously, we're not going to deep dive on any of that now But I thought it was pretty good. Uh, it's it's your terrain piece is captain toots basically from From the storm cast. Yeah, you can just you just go tooting go tooting on everybody But you can also hide in it. And so like it's also garrison able. Yeah, we now have garrison able terrain as part of the Uh, as part of the world like as part of the racial terrain, which is not I mean That's plus one save minus one to hit be hit. Yep. Like that's not too shabby honestly. Sure Absolutely. Um I mean realistically if you do hide a little skinky priest in there or something it makes and you know Any number of other types of troops in there? It makes him very very hard to remove And let me just say the rules seem to do really well with serif on and teams just saying not serif on So enough Oh, sure. Sure Yes, um So it's you know, I I'm not sure what to think about this We'll talk a lot more about the terrain later because I'm gonna have things to say about that in this this new trend Um Yep. Hey, they're they've solved my question They've given me lower reasons why these things are showing up. Sure No, they're they're they're spaceships that can land or they're things that can that might have if the lizard man Just sat down and decided not to take off again. Then they just land and vines grow. Sure. Yeah, I'm down with that Yeah, so we'll talk about it. Um Uh, yeah, what else do we have about serif on? Uh, we also, um We have a get it new getting started boxes including skanks skanks exclamation point Like I love like if both of those stay Like mayhem serif on just became like the easiest to collect army in the game Uh, sure assuming that like that is to say Assuming that something like razor dons or salamanders or krueger and yes, I'm gonna call them krueger Uh, aren't The hottest hotness well, we know the salamanders are because the embargo on play testers No, that's not he's not a play tester. He just thinks salamanders I'm gonna stop you right there from embarrassing yourself No He's not I know exactly you're talking about you're talking about ian and he's not a play tester Oh, well, they but they said that nope. That was somebody else thinking they were and they're wrong That's why you should research what you read on twitter tom and not take it all the internet is full of falsehoods At any rate no the person just is a big lizard fan and happens to like salamanders at any rate Namely ian who's a good guy? The So if salamanders and razor don and krueger's are real good, then that's going to be an unfortunate reality So here's to hoping those are all bad Uh, I mean it's not like they've ever made fine-cast stuff that good before sure Well, and then everybody can just stick to all the good plastic stuff and yay, and that's fine But by plant that we mean skinks because they're really like the big dinosaurs The karnosaur. Yes, the big dinosaurs obviously are all stellar sculpts. Yeah, but like heaven forbid people start running source source warriors I don't know. I mean it's fine. I don't have I don't have a great problem with My only complaint is that they still didn't just make source warriors in temple garden one unit That should just been one unit called right sources sources, right? Soros guard there you go done I agree like they should have just they should have jet jettisoned the standard sorus and just went with temple guard So I love those models temple guard models are are beautiful. They look a lot better with the helmets and their stuff on the other accoutrements that they have Uh, so whatever, uh, you know time will tell uh, man will read book this weekend so We'll we'll we'll find out, uh, you know t minus four days or whatever and then man reads book three days However long it is. Yeah, we never man reads book. That'll be exciting. Um, and then uh daughters got uh getting started box They did so let's so oh at any rate just close out the skink getting started box It's a good box I like it like because you can obviously make rippers or pterodactyls Both builds of the of the stegodon and you get a bunch of skinks and a little freesty It's everything that I would want from that army. Yeah, great Wonderful getting started box a plus. I give that one a I give that one a strong thumbs up Right now. Let's talk about the thing that gets an f Uh, just a giant f You're out of your mind. Okay. The daughters of kane getting started box This is one of the biggest like lies. I have seen this is a lie. Why are you such a negative fancy? Okay, this is a lie. First of all, it says on the box nine miniatures. Yes, that is technically correct like if built in that exact way it is nine miniatures but But four of those four of those nine Nearly 50 percent of the kit Excuse me of the box Is one thing Is the cauldron of blood And they're just saying look if you build it as the worst one Which the which the medusa on the the cauldron is the worst one. Yes Yeah, right. That is the worst build for that. Had queen on cauldron or slaughter queen on cauldron are Far superior in every way shape and form currently. Okay. We don't like if this is a re-release I can only judge based on what's available right now tom. Sure. Okay, sure In the future anything could happen. Who knows right? Okay. I know Literally right now. That's what you're doing. Yeah, so okay. So if I build it is the worst one that I get nine miniatures if however I decide to build it as either of the other two. I only get eight Because then I've got to put the standalone Cain statue, which by the way, I've never seen anybody taking an army Literally ever Okay, I have to put that on top of the cauldron I mean, let's be honest. Even chuck puts it on the base of other things. Sure of his day rafis Sure, he just uses it as filler on basing material. Yes. Okay. So then you're down to eight miniatures. All right And And like the optimal build is probably the slaughter queen on cauldron You build it that way and then a hag queen on foot As it's as the army stands right now a hag queen on foot and then a medusa on foot and then the five You know stabby snakes now. I love stabby snakes Don't build them as bow snakes because obviously you're gonna get both types of snakes Well, unless we have a major point change or a book gets I'm talking about right now Sure again, sure if ifs and buts, you know, hey, hey, I KO let me just say this here's an example of this KO getting started box I laughed people out of the room when that dropped because it was a terrible getting started box. Sure at the time now It's some of the best stuff from the army Oh, look tom as somebody who has a ton of snakes and has painted an absolute obscene amount of snakes and has Multiple medusa and a medusa on cauldron. Okay, or on on altar rather, whatever Um, I would love that. I would love it if those became hot. Okay. That would be a great world For me to live in it's all upside for me, baby I say make witch elves and sisters a slaughter terrible You know how much that'll hurt me zero, son. That is all win for me Call up dj call it because all I would be doing is winning But uh me on the other hand would be in a lot of pain. I'd have to buy a new army. Sure So at any rate my point is just that is the as it stands right now Not a great deal. Not a great starting box now on top of that like by the way that retail Is like 110 Sure for both of those kits individually. Uh, no, I'm sorry. It's 115. No 115 120 somewhere there. Um, that's uh Like if it's a hundred dollars, you're not really getting a discount on that box. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it won't be like yes It better be the cheapest getting started They better be out there with like this the storm cast and corn's getting started boxes for that to to be valuable Uh, right All right, and then the gets one, uh, which is the loon boss on foot a bunch of squigs and three trolls Well, again, like that one's a good deal. Let me just say that. Um, But you might just raw cost wise just raw cost. It made me sad though that it wasn't like what I like I wish it would have just been squigs Uh, just oh sure. I wish it would have just been like bouncy squigs cab squigs and then mounted cab squig Like a mounted hero Like if they had done that I'd have been like you have my attention. Um but uh But it's not they like mixing the squigs and the trolls Because they did that in the big box too on all the larger On like a slightly different scale, obviously Interestingly, uh, you could for 50 bucks You can get a set of the cab squigs and three snufflers in the war cry the new like bundled war cry Like we didn't we didn't cover this so like for two like for paying the normal cost for the cab You basically get three snufflers for free Now, yeah, like that's just how they like while that box is available. That's just life Um, and so like you there's actually a really neat set of bundles like a combination of kits That you could potentially buy now to get like quite a bit of squigs at discount. Yeah, sure No, I it's it's it's one that I just look at go. Okay Yeah Like that's my my responses my response on these three boxes could be summed up as follows. Yay boo meh In order sure there you go So Yep, that that's the that's the kind of insightful expert deep analysis that we deliver here every week. There you go Um Yep, okay. Good job. That's yeah, that's what I'm here for buddy Uh And then rathy ever chosen f aq Yeah, the rathy ever chose an f aq. I mean not really anything much that we didn't expect I mean, I think they intentionally like look for the broken things and then just decide not to answer those to see What kind of consternation they can cause the community Sure, because there was a couple things I didn't I that I expected to be answered that weren't Which was weird. Um, they did answer the Knights of the empty throne thing So we got our answer there that it was basically exactly as we had said or I should say is that you had corrected me on On the show. Um saying yeah, no, it's just, you know, another cabalus. It's another You know, uh Host the ever chosen just another one of those, right, right, which of course it was if you read it That's exactly what it read like it just I mean that made a hundred percent sense But was glad to see them. Yeah, it's nice to get clarify that Yeah, totally uh So That's fine, uh, all everything else was more or less what I expected uh, I will say I uh, you know, obviously I didn't get a chance to really talk about it But I used the lurid haze Uh invaders at holy at holy wars and Uh, you really liked it Well a two of rerolling a two-plus rerolling everything archaeon is uh, It's pretty good. He's hard to stop Let me just say that he only died one game and that was when kenny lull Hit me with the giant chaos tower on steve's table and did 14 holy wounds to me in one round Yeah, that'll do it. That'll do it um But uh, it was it was really fun. Like he was he was darn near unbreakable in that build is what I'll say You're getting extra plus one from the war shrine. No from no, no, no I didn't have a war shrine war shrines or war shrines can fail Lurid haze gives you an extra gives you as a command ability the ability to just go. I have plus one armor save Oh, okay That's why it's like it is a very good You can also pull d3 units off the board and ambush with them, which was Repeatedly super useful like at holy wars. That's just winning. That was super useful everywhere having a keeper walk away And then sneak back on In your back line like you don't that makes you suddenly turn around and pay attention Right That's true Uh, so at any rate I enjoyed that Uh, so yeah, I'm very happy with wrath of the ever chosen. All it made me do is go man We I really want to see either this type of treatment or something like the uh work Worklands the iron jaws, uh treatment that just came in white dwarf For cities Right like more battalions more interesting ways to build around that. There's so much Blue ocean with cities. Can we please? Explore it, right? Like the battalions were the greatest failure in cities of sigmar and something like that white dwarf article Would you you could just fix it all right, right? Yeah It's true that easy right, so Um, but the uh, the Yeah, wrath the ever chosen is good. I like it a lot. I'm happy with all the options it gives a rate It seems like most people I've talked to who've been utilizing it have said yeah, it's good, but no like Frankly, there's not really anything in there that I think is busted I like I really think that it really puts nergal back on the map in a real way Like I agree gives lots and in in both giving nergal players cool options They didn't have just for fun and in giving them competitive options as well and that's a real win Yeah, I would agree with that Okay, uh, that's the news Cool. All right, so that's all of that. I'll I'll finish out here by saying um That uh, don't forget I've got classes teaching the week after warhammer fest in the uk Uh, you can find the link down in the description if you're going to be anywhere near london the week after warhammer fest So this is like may 8th 9th 10th that 6 7th 8th 9th. That sounds right Uh, you know go check it out. We'd love to have you along. It'll be at dark sphere in london And it's going to be a really great time. So hope to see people there. Come check it out Uh, it's going to be a super amount of fun. We're going to do a big monster. We're going to do a character Oh boy. Oh boy. It's going to be a good time Uh, cool, ma'am So tom let's talk about some uh pick of the week, buddy Yeah, I want to share with everybody. I have a I have a link to share or an image. Uh, uh, uh, I want to promote A product that I saw on the internet today. Okay or this week and it's this wonderful Oh man, dare I say panty dropping aid for the table? Whoa That's a powerful statement Pro painted studios has provided you The ko and tempest eye players with this tracker Okay And it helps you track the wounds On your vessels and what models are embarked on those vessels Okay, and it comes in a bunch of different colors See Okay How cool is that? It's great I'm excited I guess you should be that thing's amazing. I this is one of those things that I it's hey Game aids are fun. If you enjoy this tom, I'm enjoying it for you. I'm happy I want like four of these sitting next to my table. It makes me want to run more ships just seeing these things They look like little angry goats Uh, kind of I can see that. Yeah Cool. All right. So there you go All right, good stuff Do you have uh, you you need to send me the link for that particular twitter post that way? I can share it up there so people can go find that or wherever people can go to find those little And then a shout out to teen race receive, which uh, who who was the brainstorm behind that product? Nice. Nice Uh, my pick of the week if you are not satisfied with our amount of lizard talk and you want more hot lizard action Uh, then I'm going to shout out to two plus tough who did a nice show live reacting to The big serif on news drop and talks about it with his audience for a little while and about the rumors and the initial Things being spoiled. So uh, go check that out. I'll link two plus down in the description Uh, obviously it's uh, it's always good to hit to see dug talk about stuff and he is excited about lizards So he as usual whenever dug gets hyped that means two things one Means dugs getting himself a new army and two somebody else is getting an army when he sells off whatever he's working on So there you go. It's so true It's so true Uh, so go check that out if you're if you're a fan of if you are if you too are stoked for lizards And you need all the lizard action up in your business This is a place you can go for additional lizard action. So there you go Uh, all right cool Uh So tom Yeah What you've been working on man. Look at all this free time. You've suddenly got you're a you're a free man again tom The weight is lifted hallelujah I I actually am like I have a bunch of professional stuff i'm working on boo And i'm parenting full time now, which apparently like when you parent There's not a lot of time to hobby like when you're just doing that full time like Like two or like three year olds and five year olds. They take quite a bit of time But I wouldn't know no fire slayers Oh, you're painting up your your pizza oven. No, like I it it's been mostly painted but i'm like i'm Doing more. So yes, I'm I'm I'm making it nicer. So yeah, uh, I Yeah, like I I did this. Um, I got most of my gun hauler done You guys saw a little bit. I got some paint on the basin. Yay Um, and then like the gun haulers have been all but my highlighting steps. Yay So, yeah, things are going well, uh built some models painted some models rebased like 100 dispossessed That happened this week. Um I yeah, uh, I'm making progress getting back in the swing of things nice Uh, I see christian. We're is saying that the lizard. Uh, the lizard. What's up is the best right now as the starborn Versus coalesced civil war is getting heated. I'm sure We need some team shirts. I'm teague team starborn or I'm team coalesced That should happen So that I I hope to see that that lizard on lizard Civil war just go all the way to a hot war. It'll be fantastic. Looking forward to that for my own hobby time I finished up my last golden demon project. So I was excited about that I, um That is done. I'll probably share pictures of that out this weekend Uh, I was obviously uh in Wisconsin hanging out with sam and adam and working on One of those so I did a stream on sam stream on and so I'll link that down below too because he made that episode available for everybody So you can go check it out if you want to see sam and uncle adam and myself hang out for a couple hours And chit chat and just talk and paint. It was a lot of fun always good to be on a stream and uh Now I'm working on something more for me Which I'm working on a bust Uh, and she's right there. This is a bust. I've had for a long time and uh, I've just always I've Wanted to paint her for a while. I like vampire ladies And she is a really nice vampire lady. It's a nice sculpt And so I wanted to do something very different than because I've been focusing so much on like gaming type stuff for Uh, you know for golden demon. I needed I needed a good palette cleanser. I needed to just get into a bust and really Uh feel feel a different type of art Uh at the same time I've been working with these that I got very recently They were waiting for me when I got home, which these are the chimera Uh pure pigment colors a lot of people have been asking me about them for a long time I finally did get them Thanks to emily who literally was like, hey, they're back in stock go order them now So I did so thank you emily for for for helping me out and uh I am I have to say I freaking love these paints. They're wonderful. They're uh, they're absolutely fantastic You do have to mix the colors you want because they are basically just a classic They're a slightly expanded artist palette is the best way I would describe it You're mixing most of what you are. I mean all told there's There's like 13 colors in the whole thing. So, you know, most of what you're doing you have to mix Sounds like a nightmare It's great because there are beautiful really intense really bright vibrant vibrant vibrant Paints, uh, the red did blow me away. I've heard a lot of people say that they really liked the red And now I understand why because it is a Lovely absolutely Rocket intense red. So that was all about that Uh, all right, so That's what's on my plate. And then after that, who knows I do have what do I got back here hiding behind me? Oh, he's down on the ground It's curled up around my feet waiting, but chow. There he is boom. That's right kitty cat The cat llama is here. He's ready to go. Oh, I'm excited about this guy. I am excited about this guy That makes one of us You're out of your mind. He's the greatest miniature ever made Uh End of discussion There you go. He's okay. Like it's fine. It's fine That's what I'm gonna say He's he's wonderful. So I am excited to paint him up. Uh, yeah, and then it'll be back to the city's army. So There we go. All right, man So tom Let's talk about My the terrain piece that I'm painting right now. Yeah, you're painting a terrain piece, which is absolutely wonderful, right? Yeah, uh, I love terrain Tell me what you think high level Let's start here. Okay. I'm gonna split this into two discussions, but they're they're gonna overlap Right, we're not gonna be able to do that Yep So step one Yeah What do you think about army terrain this movement? This isn't a completely new thing Obviously sylvaneth and the associated tree type people have had woods for a long time long time Yep, okay But somebody looked at that and said wait a minute. We're leaving money on the table here Okay Legitimately so So and then and then army terrain became a thing so overall What's your take on army terrain? Do you like it? Do you not like it? By the way clearly happened like there's a disconnect with the legion of negash Because they got tokens while nergal got its tree All at the same time. It's fantastic. Um I I'm real mixed on it, honestly Like I would be lying if I said I loved it and I would be lying if I said I hated it Um, I think that sometimes it is delightful and I love what it's doing in the image that it's invoke like evoking um And so I think that there is certainly a place for it um That said Um, I don't like the fact that we have moved into like just like there are the activation wars There are like the terrain placement wars Sure Are you specifically thinking like bone tithe or are you talking about even things like, uh The idk's boat the idk's all of it all of it Yeah, like because both of those things have some pretty dramatic effects on the game And they're big enough that like they can really and the placement rules are weird enough that they like really disrupt the game and the tournament setting uh because like You don't know pain until a to is like, you know Cautiously laid out a table and then an idk player comes along and be like oh based on my rules I'm just going to wall off this section of the board. Sure Because this is how my terrain works because I can put down two full boats Right and and you can put them in places that are like that really like Limit movement like really constrict movement for some armies. Um, so like if you don't fly You just don't move through that area and so now you permanently have to go around with really not much option The pain of like playing fire slayers without your without your rune smiter or whoever makes you tunnel Uh and needing to walk over an idk ship all the way up and over It's like up and over because you have to like go up each and down each side It's like it's literally like 22 inches or something Sure, sure like that's that's what we're talking about here You are adding an entire dimension to the board. That's not there Like if you're measuring it appropriately, um, and so I just like Or for example, the bone tide like where you're picking up board terrain Like it's supposed to go down before board terrain even go down And like the and the nexus is huge um, and so I just Like Some of it I love Sure because you like it you want to like it because it's often like when it's flavorful And interesting and visually compelling and fits with the army and is super cool It's such a neat thing, right? Right. Yep. And would you say it's would you say it's the execution that often leaves you wanting? I mean, that's part of it and part of it is like I like there's a piece of it that I just I wish not every army got it for free Sure, you're saying all the armies that have it get it right your point So like if if your army has it then you have that thing like um And to me like I just wish that wasn't the case. I wish there was an opportunity cost um I don't know. I just like I have really mixed feelings. I because like I love some of the terrain But like my daughter has sylvaneth And she's starting sylvaneth and what that means is that she's starting a living city's army Um, because I'm not going to spend $200 on drain for Like that's just I'm just not Um, and in order to play some of those armies, it's really hard to not, you know, have enough trees So I just I don't know. That's that's where I'm at. That's fair All right. So here's my 40 000 foot take On balance. I don't like it Okay on army terrain. Sure Uh My favorite thing is when I see an army doesn't have a terrain piece. I'm like, yes Wonderful. This is fantastic. I'm so happy to see this Sure, because so cities war clans great I packed up my whole slinnish army to go to that tournament, which is already annoying Okay, because I've got to bring a bunch of extra crap for summoning Slash is like literally the definition of the worst because they have a terrain piece They have summoning and they have endless spells. Yeah, so I I pack all this up I literally got all myself ready and set it out in the other room to walk out the door and then was like Oh, yeah, I need that dumb feign, right? And I spent lots of time painting that feign and try to do something really impressive with it Yeah, and it still drives me bonkers on the whole Here's what I think about the train one People are often angry when they don't get a terrain piece Yep, that is comical to me Okay. Okay. All right. Let let me explain to you why That's wrong Okay, why if you're upset you should not be you should switch that emotion for happiness Here's why okay yep A book has a certain amount of allegiance abilities Yep. Yes. Yep. Okay. Let's call that x now in a perfect world We could sort of quantify those to all be equal and say that they're all roughly x Sure, we know that's actually not true, right? Sure. Yep. Arguably right now people like storm cast are very under allegiance ability right Okay But nonetheless, we can still say that there's some variable that is your total allegiance ability x And that will generally apply to your army Sort of regardless Right like no matter across the table universally across table no matter what's happening now There are weird exceptions people who are ready to I'm actually me in the comments Yeah, uh, such as the bad moon Okay, where it's like only if it's in this particular table quadrant or whatever whatever We started But whatever, okay When you have a terrain piece Then necessarily y amount of x Yep Is now sequestered Is localized to a particular thing you have to put on the table Yep, and by and by And your army could just as easily have that ability like it could just easy Let's take the most sort of uh, obsequious of them. All right. Let's take the bone type nexus Yep, okay, which is a very active thing you get to use every round It's not just sitting there sort of being a passive effect, right? Right. Okay There's no reason you literally just couldn't have that be an allegiance ability called like the the march of Of catacrys or you could be like the demands of negosh. Sure. Whatever. Yeah, great every round you pick one of these four things You roll a die this happens Yep Right Yep, you have to choose a hero for to originate from or your originates from your general or whatever whatever I don't care. You can the point is it doesn't need to actually emanate from that thing Sure, right It can emanate from any number of other things Sure. Sure. Absolutely So like it necessarily sequesters part of your allegiance ability into a physical thing on the table that can be walked away from that has limitations Yep. Okay. Sure. All right so That's one When you look at somebody like cities, he doesn't have that. I'm like great No, no, I'll just take all this stuff for all my troops all the time regardless of where they are sounds great to me Sure, okay uh Now to Many of them drive me crazy. There are a few exceptions Things that I like are ironically the nergal tree. I hate the design. It grosses me out and and You know absolutely sets off all of my my fear like my tryptophobe or whatever it is Yeah, um But that being said it's a rather unobtrusive piece. I don't like its effect I find it silly that it makes an urgal run in charge The slow plotting defensive army should not have run in charge on their terrain piece For their entire army Because that's what it does. It gives everybody that's nergal run in charge Just a within seven inches like again completely nonsensical effect out of this thing Sure, but you know like it makes sense. That is to say I like its look. It's not rather It's not huge doesn't super get in the way. It's neat how they can summon more It makes sense for the creeping plague of nergal All of that works Good. It rocks super fine. It rocks how it's showing up on the table. Yes, everything up to but not including its Ability works even though I like even the mortal wound splashing around it makes sense. That's fine Cool Herdstone herdstone. I love I look at the herdstone and I'm like yep It's this thing that they drug to the battle site and stood up It's got big sticks on the back where they clearly pushed it up Right and stood it up to have this fight around it And as the game goes on they throw their own little dudes on it on the pyre and as it builds up with energy It has more it has sort of a growing radius of effect Yep Cool Okay, and again not very not overtly large not overtly obtrusive can kind of be put where you need it Neat, you know still not perfect It should probably start at nine inches and not six All right, I think that's sort of the universally agreed fix that would make the rend actually more Impactful on the game just even that three inches would actually make quite a big difference over the course of the the game but good Most of the rest I can just I could just jettison That like almost to a terrain piece the feign is just a cute toy for nothing It didn't need to be there. The army doesn't need it. Why? The skull throne same story. It's just literally facilitating something that they might as well just do Right Like it what what it why why and why the pizza oven same story I don't like it. I don't like that the priest just summons a pizza oven out of nowhere That's no i'm going to give a hard no on that one and you know what it does Just gives bonuses to that priest to continue casting right Like functionally, that's what it does like yes, you can once per game blah blah blah reroll saves of one No, I mean You're right. Sure. No, I understand again These could just be allegiance abilities the corn throne. Nope yet again. Why why is this thing here? Why does it look like it? right, um, why Although I will say the bone, uh, altar and the The um The skull altar, whatever they are the fec and the corn web at least have the decency to be again rather unobtrusive Right, right. I would agree with that. Yep. Uh, the mall pot is underwhelming for what it does Uh, it's just like It exists. It exists. It can and once in a while it'll heal a wound Okay, uh great fantastic fun times Uh, I we don't even don't and then we get into like the real bad ones the ones that just like I would completely Remake from the ground up because I think they're honestly problematic Like the bone tide nexus is fine. It's on the border. It just needs to be shrunk Like they should have just went into the z-cad file and said reduce down to 70 and fine I don't I don't hate it. It's perfectly fine set of effects. It's it's one of the ones that grocks the most Its effects actually align the best with the army Do you understand what I'm saying? Like what it's actually doing Actually feels like it's aiding the army in a real way that makes sense both narratively and Mechanically sure most of them feel like they were just kind of Shoved in there right like well We've got this we've got this square peg of terrain and this round hole of this army that we have set up Just if you hammer it hard enough, right? Yep, the idk ship drives me bonkers because it's so big and you can set up two of them and it's just so impactful um The oh the doll holes are in the previous category by the way. I'm just like whatever Like I don't hate them. I don't love them. They're they're really exist Like I consider the doll holes one of the most powerful ones. They certainly are I don't agree like it's It's three pieces of cover for heroes if you want that combined with teleportation still like army mobility and magic bonus Yeah, yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. It's it's yes It's all good and also threatening and all this it's probably doing too much honestly is my point Right when you compare that to something like the mall pot. I'm like, what are we even talking about here guys, right? right yep So You know I and that comes from the heart of a scaven player right like I dig them I think they're thematically awesome. I think the doll holes are thematically awesome. I just think I don't know that they needed to be there. They're they're probably up toward the better that the good category I should I should have done like an official ranking of this, right? Sure So like at the top would be the best one would be like nergal trees, which is horribly ironic coming for me right it is Null holes would be up around there that kind of thing Uh, the idk boats are just so large and so Awful to just be against and be there and be in the way. They're the worst kind of fiddly You can't balance models on them. They they cause all these weird measurements. It's insane that you get two full boats if you want Uh, and on top of all that they have the type of rules that are the worst Which are if you're within range at during this phase roll this dice if that affects then this happens. Yeah, sure Uh, and then obviously the sylvaneth are still the worst. The trees are the worst. We've talked about this fix before Right. Yep So the thing I I I the thing I want the most is to play armies that Don't have uh, it just don't have to rain to be completely honest. I find it to be In almost all ways and in in the vast majority of cases a negative Well, and like let me just say one of the most powerful things that you can do is shape a battlefield It is like from a rule standpoint and this is like this is why mobility is so strong Is that like extreme mobility functionally reshapes the the terms of engagement? Right like and that's functionally what What terrain does in some sense? Some are going to be more egregious about this than others But they reshape the battlefield and sometimes in dramatic ways Like breaking line of sight or making units run 20 inches, you know, just to get over top of them um, and so it just it It's egregious in some instances. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure I so alex in the chats that I feel personally attacked I love my boats. Hey, if I was an idk player, I'd love my boats too I'd love having one of the most uh abusive terrain pieces of the game at my disposal would be fantastic And and by the way, nobody should feel personally attacked by this If you have a different opinion on these terrain pieces, of course as always This is just us pontificating and sharing our opinion But again, you know, like I would answer coach like this coach said, um I wish that my city's had some kind of outpost thing. My answer would be cool. What would you like to give up? What don't you want in your city's army anymore? You want to give up your endless spells? Yeah, you want to give up the endless spell ability? Maybe your adjutant your ability to bodyguard Which of these things are two of these things would you like to lose to have outpost rules? That then only work within if you garrison that outpost pick your thing right Because that's what that's how that works again There's only x of allegiance abilities and if you sequester part of those rules unless you're ko It's just you're gonna lose part of it, right right So there you go Um, that's your point. Charles. Charles Harlem says the herdstone beats the nergal tree. It has much more ludo narrative consistency Uh, I don't know they uh Well, here's the deal. Yeah. No, I'm gonna agree with him. I charles has sold me Yes, he's right because he's making a ludo narrative dissonance point And he's he's absolutely correct that there is that the Nergal tree Creating a run-in-charge bubble does not It creates ludo narrative dissonance. He's right. He's just he's absolutely right. Whereas the herdstone Grocks completely every element of the herdstone from its design to its placement to its effect Is why are they getting more rent? Why are they because because the herdstone literally breaks down civilization around it. So armor is rusting Manifesting in the fact that the rent is increasing Okay. Yeah, I like I'm okay with that you can say that's a mechanical stretch in some way But I'm okay with it like I like that It that's a story that works Okay for you sure Technology and all those sorts of things are breaking down things are rusting entropy is affecting the world So then why don't why do guns still work fine? Because it can't affect everything tom You know because what a gun is this is a good mechanical representation of that type of concept. Why is it weakening dragon scales? Uh, because dragon scales still have dragons. I still have armor on them. There you go. That's why I've seen star drake He has armor. Why is it not weakening uh beastman armor? Because if they have armor then that's like civilization. Have you seen them? They're mostly naked It's it doesn't matter But but that's my point. Is that like like I understand your rationality, but man there are exceptions like sure like yeah yeah, so I you know, that's that's my point like At the very least what I would hope to convince you Dear viewer of is that if you are one of the armies that did not get a terrain piece You should not feel bad. You should not feel bad You you didn't miss anything you lost Nothing and only gained you literally gained money You gained transport space. I mean in fact, let me put it this way. You ready? Yeah Terrain pieces are gift cards What would you rather have money or gift cards $10 10 crisp dollars or whatever your local currency is Okay, 10 euros 10 whatever Okay, or a gift card for $10 to one store of your choice Yep Because that's what a terrain piece is it says you get some special rules if you're standing right here Right, okay That's it. This is $10 as long as you're at apple piece Everywhere else in the world. This is not $10 But if you want incredible You're you're set Okay That's it touche Yeah Now I hear that There you go Okay, so what do you think about endless spells because clearly you feel really strongly about terrain? I do I really do by the way this whole show the premise is let's let just Vince rant about what he wants to write about so Well, no, that's fine. I've talked for a while. What do you think about the army endless spells? It should be back to you tom I think that they are I think that they are As bad as if not worse than terrain Okay, interesting Because what it does is that it is predominantly tied to army composition um, and Uh, and when it's not so what I mean by that is this, um, it is something that is Only for a narrow small portion of your army and some armies don't even get to play in that space okay And then on top of that um So it's like it's only affecting like it's only working with a small portion and then of that small portion You're paying points. And so then it's a larger cost like a larger sink Um, and then you're buying a box of three models that you may use one out of Maybe um, and then uh so points Uh multiple models most of the time junk rules on most of them Um, oh and then the the uh, yeah the bias against certain armies Obviously, I'm like particularly cognizant of this being a dwarf player Sure, but I mean you're one of your dwarf armies did get a bunch of cheater better than endless spells Which then leads me to my next problem is that then what it does is it carves out another rule space For like weird interactions like yes, I do have these endless prayer things But they like go away and it's created another mechanic where like if I want to be able to persist them I have to like or make them reliable in any way during the during the back to back turns Because like that movement from like casting it to then it going away Potentially at the end of your turn like if you're on the bottom of a turn It always has a chance of disappearing at the end of your turn Sure, and then now you have to invest additional resources into that thing to make function and like so I just Like I had to laugh about this today literally today because like I I was moving some endless spells On one shelf of my painted stuff and then I had another shelf that was my undpainted things and I was moving things and I was like There are a lot more unpainted than the spells than painted Sure sure and like by that I mean like a like eight to one ratio At least between malign sorcery between Uh forbidden power Yeah forbidden uh, yeah malign sorcery sorcery forbidden power and then all of the racial ones sure it's a big list now It's a big list and in general like most of them are bad So I want to leave the generic ones off the table because theoretically those are open everybody and that's a separate discussion So the army specific ones what I want to hone in on right we could have a whole different show just literally on the generic endless spells Sure, but my point is is that they're just like they're just so many bad ones And there's so many that we have that just don't get used that it just feels superfluous. Okay fair enough All right, and and hold on I have one more thing go ahead and Like I know people don't like me beating this drum But like what happens when we move when we rotate out endless spells Okay And so like today I you know, I you know like blew the signal horn on the fact that like That bail and vortex has disappeared from the gw website It is not being stocked by retailers anymore Okay, um, you cannot order it from like a like you can anybody that has stock you can order it But like things can't it can't be backordered from like warehouses and stuff like that Like it doesn't show up on the sheet anymore. So as of right now bail when vortex has been discontinued So this is a endless spell that you've bought That doesn't work anymore like it or like like we could theoretically perhaps go away and Unless they re-release it or re-bundle it or like they're not going to make these bundles in perpetuity. Sure like Here's a news flash like when we move out of the soul wars Moline sorcery probably goes to Sure, all those spells might rotate or something All those endless spells might rotate or we may lose some of them and keep some of them or you know, like Who knows what happens when like molds break like and it's not a product that is like has a high incentive structure for purchasing it's one of those like fire and forget purchases once you have it you don't need it anymore And so like it's not something that ultimately like They're really incentivized to re to reproduce later So like I just like so to me that's all the signal warnings of like a limited release product It could also the thing I mean maybe that's a lot of speculation is what I say sure but Yeah Or like an army book that gets released and they just decide to not re-release the endless spells that time Sure, all all of these things are possible But we have no evidence that any of them are the case yet and then right now they're as stable as anything else And then there's the hammer hurricane What about the hammer hurricane do I need to say more you just saying because it's real bad It exists. Sure. All right. So here's my take on the endless spells Yeah, I like them as much as I dislike the terrain. I'm completely the opposite on this one. All right Sure, I love them. They're great. Keep making them forever. Let's do this All right. Now that doesn't mean it's problem. It's not there's not problems Sure, um as people have pointed out. Oh, by the way, we're just real quick to return to something. I didn't mention the loon shrine Uh, the loon shrine Is one? Yeah, I've played it but against people who have a loon shrine. Yeah Um the twice now In tournaments and then many times more beyond that Uh, like I've played it twice against it in tournaments. Um, the gits don't show up often as internments I don't know why not enough people play gits internments. I want to see more gits players. They're always it's always a fun game. Um The Loon shrine needs to be shrunk down. It's too big So again, one of those things it's like turn that down to 80 percent in z cat and then do that Uh, and its effect is kind of annoying because it only hits the goblins I wish it I wish it did more to I wish they just didn't do as much with the bad moon like if I was rewriting gits I would way reduce what the bad moon does and I'd have the shrine do more If that's what we're gonna honestly do right assuming assuming you told me vent you've got to keep the shrine I said, I'd say great. Let's have the shrine affect all sort of types of troops and the army and I'd have the moon do a lot less Because at least the at least the shrine is there You can you can bet on it existing Okay Uh, null hole. Oh, what was the call on null holes? They're fine. They're in like the upper fine category Uh, what holds them back is they're honestly probably too good Uh, you know being able to pay zero points for that is pretty decent Zero points for three pieces of arcane terrain zero points for three pieces of arcane cover granting Deadly to your enemies teleporting terrain is a pretty good deal where I come from And that's in a book with a lot with you know, where the X of allegiance abilities is already pretty strong Okay, so endless spells. Why do I like them so much? Well, I'll tell you why tom because they don't suffer from any of the same problems as terrain Here's here's problem number one that they just answer right away. Okay Uh Here we go number one Uh It they are completely optional I've never felt compelled to run them. I painted a couple of them. You know why I painted some of them I painted my slanesh ones the I painted the big mirror because I thought that one was cool I painted all the slaves darkness ones because I liked the look of them because you like the models You painted them because you like the look of the models. That's right. That's right And I never there's armies I have that had on the spells that I was like, nah didn't buy them pass Don't like them don't want them don't need them and that's it don't need them And and that's the huge difference My only problem with them is when some of them cross into near autopick territory Yep, okay, which admittedly there aren't a huge number of But they exist Uh, I think you you mentioned the hammer hurricane. Okay Yeah, but the comet is a good example of something right now where it's like, well, you could take it You could not right whatever It's a cool spell and it's not a cool spell and it's pointed about right and some people use it and have fun with it And some people don't and there you go Sure Great, but uh But then you've got the fec chalice Sure, and you've got the uh, you've got the the uh, bone daddy, uh, you know hit the nightmare thing that yeah Hit nightmare predator or whatever it is. Yep um Which are both I've never seen a list without them now I will say In defense of the obr spell that is a near auto include It is also an auto include because oftentimes that army will have like 60 ish points left Right, and there's just nothing you can buy and there's just nothing you can buy for that amount of points Because they can't they literally can't even buy command points, right? Um, so they they it's actually really nice to have a spell that's valuable that they can take So I don't hate that in that case. I think it actually serves a pretty nice function in the army Um, things like demon rift are probably, you know, are too good. I mean that's you know, there's demon rift So there's a so excusing the army ones that are honestly too good Which there aren't many of to be fair Okay, there have they have released a lot of army specific endless spells And there aren't many of them That we look at and go We've got to have you've got to have that in your army, right? Or you start and go it it automatically includes this Okay, so Which ones would fall into that like so we're fighting vortex for a season was like that It was but it's not now put many many many scaven people don't do that anymore, right? right Probably the chalice the predator uh The demon rift right now right Are there any others i'm trying to think if there are any others i'm going through like all of them in my head I can't think of any others i'm sure i'm missing one within fire slayers the wall I don't i've seen plenty of fire slayers people who don't take the wall and they're wrong Um, is it would you really defend it though as an auto include? Yes. Yes. Absolutely Absolutely because the wall what the wall does right now is it not only does it cut line of sight Uh, it makes it so that like you can be in combat with somebody and not have a line of sight to them Because of the way the wall is ruled right now I understand that i i'm still not sure. I I bet if we ask, you know, 10 You know like You know sort of top tier fire slayers players Six or seven of them would say that that the wall is in there, but I don't think it'd be a universal statement So it's probably a majority opinion. I think you'd be surprised. That's awesome. Okay Um, hey, if you're a fire slayers player, do you consider the wall to be automatic as a take? Either say it right now in the chat or put it down in the comments. I'm interested Um, the silveness don't have any Trying to think, um Look at my other armies. Um, nervel doesn't have any obviously doc doesn't have any Um moon clan, uh, they don't although like the cauldron gets pretty close No, but I mean, theirs are good. I think gets are a great example of nailing it Because all of them are interesting. They do kind of neat stuff scuttle tides cool It can be fit enlist the cauldron's cool It can fit enlist like that is one where they hit the nail on the head Yeah, like I want to run mushroom like it's probably not a good idea, but I want to run mushroom I want to run moon Like I want to run those things, you know, they're probably not the wisest sure which is fine Like the the want to run is different than must run. Totally agree. Uh night haunt have you can just Leave them at home. Uh most of but the two of the three storm cast you can just leave those at home. Um Yeah, I mean dwarves don't have anything cities obviously don't have anything IDK doesn't have anything Yeah, yeah, I mean to me it feels like I love them because they're optional. They're cool fun models You can take them. You can use them if you like if you if they're a thing that compels you to play them Right, right? If you look at them and go, yeah, okay. I think that's a cool thing Then you can do that cool thing right right and and it's fine But if you're literally the type of player who's like, man, I've got my army and I don't want to spend any more money And I don't really need these spells then in most cases you can just great. Don't buy those spells Because they're optional Right. I I just all of my complaints disappear Sure, right in exempting in the cases where they become so good That they're just that they just become auto includes and what that usually means is that they're mis-pointed Right, right? So like the things I just said like chalice just probably needs to go up The bird probably needs to go up and the demon rift needs to be either go way up or Better just fix the stupid scroll Just just cap the wounds it can deal so it's not running around dealing like 40 mortal wounds in a single turn Right, you know like that just fix the scroll That seems fine Okay, you know, I look I'm not gonna lie and not say I haven't played demon rift a few times I have And uh, I got demon rift played against me. It didn't do much of anything except give over the weekend At havoc, you know what it did it gave me a lot of depravity and then archaeon went no, no, no Yeah, get this out of here. Yeah, like I think my problem is is like on one hand it creates like for me If I if I have an army or I I'm going to have an army and I don't get endless spells I feel like I've been shorted Okay, again, I I don't and that's another thing. I never feel like if they don't show up I don't care But well because it's like it's like it's like having another unit But but but a unit that normally fits into the list building cracks So it's actually a really helpful unit. Sure. Um, oh there you go somebody somebody mentioned hex gorger skulls Yeah being a potential on that on that horn is solid. Yeah, like corn has solid options Yeah, and I wouldn't even say they're an auto. I feel like hex gorger is right in the right place where corn much like Much like uh gets has some cool compelling options. I think are good. Yeah um, but I mean what I'll say is that I uh, like I understand that hate or the frustration of serif on players right now Because like we don't know what they're like Truly what the effect of they're like bound endless spells are for their predatory stuff Uh, but the fact that they didn't get endless spells is a feel bad Because it like is it though it is if I were in their shoes I would feel that way because I would want endless spells If I especially if I'm a wizard because it's just more options Because it's not taking away anything, you know, because this is the same type of thing with it's the same logic with In in reverse of the terrain You're you're not you're not losing anything by their existence Sure Okay, you're only gaining more options You can always choose to just not pay the points for or not buy the kit But it only adds to your army and you're only adds to your options. And so when you don't get them it creates a feel bad period ogres You know, like they would have loved endless spells. Who knows what that would have looked like for a mall or whatever Sure, um as my doc as my nergal. I feel the loss of those options Whatever those options hypothetically may be again, it's a shorting your Shorting your box situation where it's like they could be the most amazing thing in the world, but I don't get get it Uh, okay. So it for me it creates this feel bad or heaven forbid. You're an army that doesn't have wizards Yeah, I don't know man. Like my take on that is twofold one I would much rather be cities or seraphon Where my ability is to just take the whole list of generic things And make them real good Right Like I hear that I do Because so many predatory spells if they can't hurt you Let's which let's assume that's more or less how it boils out. Okay Obviously, you get to move them like they can't move your predatory spells. Sure You know Geminids and stuff becomes absolutely back breaking if you can fire them off with no fear that they come back on you Sure You know that is I can't even guess at the extra points that's worth Because Geminids and those other predatory spells the reason they're costed like they are is because they're predatory and they can come back And bite you in the face. Right, right, right and that to me is Again, I don't have this I mean, I suppose what it seems like you're saying to me tom Is this feeling of they get a thing? I want a thing too Yep, okay. I don't want a thing. I'm happy with my army. That's why I played the army That's just extra sauce man. A sunday is a sunday, dude The fact that I didn't get a couple colorful sprinkles on there Right, but some people get sprinkles or some people get fudge Yeah, some people get caramel, but you don't you know like again. Yeah, you still get a sunday You're just missing one topping. Kayo get your dumb bottle. That's your solution. Enjoy your bottle. Oh my god No All right, the problem with kayo is that you have to in order to get you have to build a certain way So if you gotta have a bottle you like you have to have the bottle Which means that you either can't take a oh don't get me started. Yeah, like I I the bottle is just the worst Yeah, I mean in my estimation Seraphon like that's just that's just childhood silliness Is is the best way I could say it not the kayo thing the kayo thing We'd have a separate discussion about when you don't have it at all and no opportunity to get it That's a different story. I'll I'll grant you the kayo thing. I'm talking about like seraphon in cities here Okay, specifically these kinds of people where it's like, well, well, I mean like you have twins I do When you give them things Yep Do you always have to make sure that they're completely equal like if they get hot cocoa with marshmallows Do they both have to have exactly five marshmallows because of one s6 and one s5 do that? Which is the one get angry? Yes. Does that frustrate you because that's acting like a silly child Uh, it it frustrates me because as a parent I want to provide that for them And what's even more egregious here is that like, uh, my son has a dairy allergy Uh-huh And so I can't give him ice cream And so like if some like my kids want ice cream, that's fine But oftentimes like if we're out in public we're not home where we can give him a dairy-free option Um, then he doesn't get it, you know, and that's the equivalent of like the dwarf situation who they just can't get it Sure Like I said, I'll I'll I'll call the kayo thing out separate But but the whole like lizard man and seraphon thing or sorry seraphon and city thing again These guys came out way better. You didn't get sprinkles. You got twice as much ice cream shut your face Uh, I don't I mean, what are you talking about? Maybe and and by the way those three spells or whatever that come in that box They're always those three spells period Or they could rewrite the rules or they could change the points, but it's always going to be those three spells And you're going to say that the list for kayo or for uh, uh For for seraphon and cities is endless is endless because it's always expanding. Yes Yep. No, I I don't disagree with that Like I yeah, I acknowledge that uh So, I mean to me uh But I stand by the fact that I understand their frustration Like that they want that they want They want to be in the they want the special toy club Sure Like and being the like they want something that is theirs Right, like this is part of it. This has to do with identity Like of people like how they're like that Even though the the rules may be stronger and the list is ever expanding, right Tom, you're literally the clapping emojis right now. I love it. Keep going They're not theirs. Uh-huh Like there's nothing that they get to call their own in that sure and and I understand it like I but from a power standpoint, I'm just like I don't care about any of that um But I understand where they're frustrated. Got it. Um and and what I what I hate Is it like and this is what frustrates me about endless spells It isn't that um It's that that inequality exists Okay Like and that's what frustrates me is that like baked into the system is Inequality sure because some people are gonna like just don't ever get this stuff And some people get these weird rules and like Armies are always going to be unequal and stuff like that. That's fine But it's the same type of thing with terrain in a sense like there's yeah All I can hear in my head right now is 10 of the armies have to go down the spells We've got to take the other spells redistribute them to the other armies. All right any rate I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a little bit burning up in here. Sure. No like I just Uh, it's all I can hear because you can you set inequality like 50 times. No look Okay Fair enough at an emotional core. Yeah As as an unemotional robot that I am with a heart that is fashioned out of a solid block of ice. Sure. I can understand Supposedly what these humans are feeling. Okay Sure, I don't like I can imagine it. Let me put it that way. I don't understand it Uh, again, I didn't get endless spells for my iron jaws and I was like great Wonderful, I couldn't have been happier Right because I don't even like the caster. I don't even like taking him The last thing I want is to feel is to have more feel bad That I that I didn't take that I didn't take these other spells I agreed. No, I totally agree because like It feel it feels like or it seems like on every level it only creates feel bad. Sure I understand because what that means is that you're forced into like let's say you have a really good awesome spell Then it creates this weird incentive structure where you feel forced into taking units that you don't want to take Like I think about doc like heaven forbid that doc had endless spells. Sure Because then you'd be forced to take these single casters these bad single casters or lots of doomfire warlocks for sure Or lots of doomfire warlocks, which would be kind of awesome. We are also single casters um, and so like Uh, yeah, that's fine Uh, my ultimate answer is but the only honest problems I have with the endless spell stuff I like them all. I think they're fun. I think they're cool. I think they're totally optional And like I said, that's why I like them. I stand behind them and when I don't get them I don't care because again, they're sprinkles. I bought the sundae not the sprinkles Uh So there you go Now I'm just going to say this hold on interrupt you. I was going to type it out But I'm gonna it's worth saying in the comments. Uh, james Uh Domas I agree with you I do for the foot of gork thing. Yeah foot of gork to me was a total miss. It was a 100% miss If I could have been more frustrated at gw for anything this year It's the absence of foot of gork like Why that thing writes itself. Come on. Couldn't think of two more. That was it. We had one good one You're gonna pay $50 for a box with just a foot in it. I would okay. Well Send that comment and fill it out in the survey. I paid $60 for a stupid loon shrine I mean That doesn't actually affect any of the units that I was running Okay yeah, so Now The things that honestly bother me is the Is the non interactivity of the endless prayers Right. I agree with that. Yep. That's the only part that gets in my craw To to a condition now again power wise. I think honestly the army's with the endless prayers right now So let's corn and fire slayers right right are fine. It's not like I feel any of those are just out, you know All mg is so broken bbq. What are we gonna do right? That's not what I'm saying I just don't like the non interactivity of it right that there's no place I can be no thing I can do That I can affect whether or not this thing emerges onto the table And by the way, it's the same for you. There's very little in both those armies You can do to decide whether or not they stay around I mean you can be near your shrine or whatever right and that gives you sort of plus one in both cases And alternatively, there's very little I can do to endless spells that are on the table In those armies Or at least let me say this in fire slayers. Yeah, I was gonna say that's in corn. You can burn There's just lots of things you can do in corn to tip with the things that are there Okay, you have the spells falling out there yang I'm sorry then but like once an endless spells on the table, there's just not a lot you can do in fire slayers You don't have a lot options fair enough and like Yeah, like Yeah, I think it'd be fine if we just kind of waved our hand and said you can dispel any endless spell or prayer and we didn't have this sort of end of turn go away thing And you can unbind in some way like I don't I don't know what that looks like But I would like it more if either a everything was on the same system That would be my honestly best case scenario We're we're sitting in a second edition d&d psionics issue right now, right? I don't need psionics and magic to be separate I'm super fine with it. Okay. Like just they all work the same to spell magic to spell psionics and to spell Soundix to spells magic Is fine. Okay. You can all work the same Yep So that's number one. That would be my most preferred world. Okay. Sure. I would agree with that I wouldn't have a problem with that Uh, if if not that then I would also accept as a fallback something that many people in the comments have mentioned That I think is my second favorite world, but still better where priests interact Right, so even wizards don't get in it. Like so priests priests magic becomes a superior version Well, no like priests can can unbind other priests and priests can dispel Priests interact Okay, okay as they as they counter pray to their gods against each other, right? Now the challenge there is obviously lots of armies don't have priests whereas most every army has wizards I understand there are exceptions, but you know that it's not the same number I don't I haven't looked at this off the top of my head I need to go do like a keyword search for how many how many armies lack priests But my suspicion of it is it's higher Than wizards, right? Like I think I think of several armies that don't have priests off the top of my head Right and there aren't that many anymore that don't have wizards like actually in faction Nope, like most of them do. Yeah, like even storm castle Sure. Sure. I mean your your big examples are the the dwarfy people, right? Your ko and your fire slayers and corn um, and so like Again, so it'd be somewhat challenging because again, we don't have as many priests, but at least it would still be more interactive right, right Because heaven forbid that you have a player drop a firewall In that eight inch gap between terrain that is now Unpassable 100 percent. There is no number of inches that you can go Sure to go over that. Yeah On foot on foot. Yeah, right But again, I think that's um, honestly, it's It's a minor complaint is is my honest answer It's one of those things where I'd go like, well, if I was aiming at a perfect world This is how I'd fix it. Sure. Sure, right um Because again, there are systematic challenges the lack of priests Uh in the game in in the game game wide uh But again, that could be fixed over time. I'm not gonna lie. I would just love it if priests and wizards could basically unbind Like all unbind worked against spells or prayers. Sure Again, that's my perfect world. Just put it all on one system Right because didn't need two separate subsystems for this You don't get like daughters of cane like housing people with all their prayers that can't be stopped Right, right, you don't get then you don't just get all sorts of weird things like archion can with a wave of his hand Clear an endless spell from the board, right? Yeah, it's just a thing he can do he can just be like, no, I don't like that That's gone now because I have all the power of the chaos gods at my disposal I am the grand marshal of the apocalypse the lord of chaos undivided the ever chosen right uh And yet Some dumb dwarf is like lava spitting monster and he's like I There's nothing I can do about this This just exists And there's nothing I can say about it. It's in my way and I can do nothing. Yes So again the perfect world here is then we don't have to worry about the number of priests in a faction Or trying to shoehorn in priests where they don't belong or wizards where they don't belong We can just have some factions only have priests And they have they have whatever they do and we have some factions only have Wizards and we have some factions have both and everybody's on the same system And I don't mind that like yeah, I don't know how this would work with unbinds because like you have the casting value versus Like auto casts on two plus or three plus or whatever. Like I don't know what that looks like Um, you'd have to rewrite the the whole you'd have to rewrite the interaction but for those hypothetical So I hear that uh 40k may be getting a new edition So for the hypothetical aos edition update that happens in a couple years sure Uh, this might be something to write towards sure and I would argue that's probably several years away, but sure um Like they're gonna want to trot this out for a while. You're two you're uh, just over two years that's Probably the That's probably that the no, I said the other event. That's probably the liberal estimate I mean, maybe just because Putting themselves on a treadmill Isn't like puts a lot of pressure on Right, so sure at any rate Now we're discussing So, yeah, I mean that would be my general feeling on on those things like sure on a long term Ideally just push them all toward one thing And that's a great world Um And if armies keep coming out here here is my real ask I don't want them like you talk about having them missing See, I'm I'm on the opposite side of the coin Which is the last thing I want Is for them to shoehorn these things in sure That bothers me far more than when they're not there, right? You just want it to be natural. Whatever it is. Yes Again the nergal tree and the herdstone Part of the reasons I like them is because they feel Very natural as extensions of the the the voice the actions the the nature The very narrative of that army Sure, right. Yeah, you can't read a a book about nergal without talking about nergal's corruption And his plague garden and his creeping sense of the way he warps the world around him, right? Right. Yep And And endless spells Are just this weird thing. They suddenly existed because the necro quake and magic went wild Okay, fine. So they're all out in the world and then armies started getting them. Well, okay I guess they just figured out how to tap into this and make it thorough And then and then buildings started showing up on the battlefield and then yes, right and the The the thing I don't want to see is these things just shoved in because they feel like they're supposed to be shoved in Sure Right when it comes to either these terrain or endless spells. Yes Maybe sometimes you won't get them and yes, we can all stretch our imagination Okay to fit anything if we want to but you know When you're stretching Okay, you know Like just you know, be honest with yourself. Okay When we're when we're talking about The ko terrain piece being a The admiral, you know gi joe battleship aircraft carrier. Yep We're stretching, right? I mean are we though? Yes. Yes, or Or or the hypothetical minefield that was rumored. Sure. Absolutely. I mean that that was a thing that was rumored for for a while. Yeah So like either a Just don't do it if you don't have a great idea If you don't have an idea that just goes Yeah, that's it. That's part of this army That I can't imagine because here's what we're saying when when you make a terrain piece. Here's what you're saying Every time that army shows up this thing is there period Can I just say that's what incenses me about the loon shrine? Is that every time the goblins fight they happen to be near a cave with a giant moon built on it? Yes, every battle ever it's part of where the moon the morsel has has like Shuck like shucked off rock and they've made a shrine out of it And which is thus an entrance to a a goblin Warren right thus then means they are always on home field advantage Yeah, so that's where things like the earlier mentioned outpost Right that that for like cities. Are you telling me that every battle cities ever fought everyone There's always one of their outposts near there. They are that effective at constructing these things, right? Like that's where it just breaks down for me because once you print that terrain piece 100 percent of battles Should be taking place with with that train piece in the immediate area As long as they're free and this is where I would push as long as they're free I like I this I wish design space that was explored was this idea that like you buy terrain pieces Because then some battles wouldn't take place near them And then whatever rules they have would be scaled then To the terrain piece and if some terrain pieces are too strong you just up the cost sure sure And and I'll say I wouldn't hate that at all Like I would not mind at all if suddenly Most terrain pieces got a points cost And that was just something we had to think about now Right and we decided to take them if they became an optional thing and not just some free piece of Of whatever I would be okay with that in many cases now That does require some very careful thought because again many of these are built in as quite considerable parts Of of the army and of the army's allegiance abilities Right. Yep. Like it would take a new addition Sure Sure, you can't just flip a switch and say oh, let's make them all just cost points Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm not proposing that at all. Please if you if you're hearing me say that don't stop That's not what I'm proposing What I'm proposing is that in the future one of the design spaces that is explored is that sometimes terrain costs And let it be optional that people can choose to bring it and it has a war scroll like other Things but it just has different setup rules than standard units. Sure That's an interesting option. I want to I want to shout out a comment here or there was a thing that was like optional depending on the general Right. That's an interesting thing that I love. I like that idea Certain builds or certain things having the terrain piece then bring it into the battlefield at a reduced or free cost Okay. Um, I can see different builds in that being a way much like the way things become battle line Yeah, there's lots of space that you could play with with these terrain pieces just having them be an auto included Thing all the time means that by necessity they have to show up in 100 percent of the games So they're supposed to now, of course, I understand people who are, you know, thinking about this in their head Uh, who go like well, you don't have to use the terrain piece. I know you don't have to I know you don't have to nobody's saying that okay, right and you don't have to put endless spells in your city's armies Sure. And and again, I don't when you don't You're just leaving your leaving abilities on the table. Yes, and I would argue that that one's less impactful than most Uh, a city's army is still quite functional without it Some terrain pieces your army feels like oh, I'm just literally functioning worse now for no reason by not having this thing Like so enough So that's a great example Right. Like oh, let me just not use many of my actual abilities printed on more scrolls Yeah, absolutely All right. Well, there you go. That's uh Do you have anything else to say on this one tom? I mean, no, like I don't know. I like I like toys And like I just wish I wish everybody got everything and all that was optional Right, like isn't that the best of all possible worlds? No, like That we're like Some like as an army build like everybody has options like some terrain options Whether they're generic like the Oh, you're saying some people just literally much like we say some people have bonuses within the spells Some of the terrain stuff would just be like you can take a penumbra engine Or reduce cost or whatever like I just wish that everybody had options for terrain and some maybe are like incentivize Certain things do better than others. Whatever. Um, and everybody has options for endless spells or endless spell type of things Like prayers and like you're not required to take any of it Hmm Yeah, I that's better. I I would brawn that say I hate boxfilling Because that's very bottom-up designy and I don't like it. I'm pure top-down all the way I know you're uh but The vince is wearing an apron because vince always wears an apron Uh because I sit here and paint and it's to not get paint on myself. Um, I love ruining clothes So I don't yes, correct. Like my apron is very This is this is all the stuff that would be on me right now if it wasn't on my apron. So there you go. Um At any rate, uh I would broaden that tom to say I would love it if every army had a something in their Allegiance or abilities or whatever Yep Even within their war scrolls. Yep That either was terrain or spoke to terrain or interacted with terrain and either was endless spells or spoke to endless spells Or interacted with endless spells. Sure What I mean by that is let me so let me I'll I'll trot this out real simple. Yep. Okay Nurgle beast of chaos the best people those the people who have those great peace train. They have their train Awesome. Perfect a plus Sylvaneth as I've said many times they should set up one woods and then turn the other pieces of terrain already on the board into woods Yep, they just overgrow them. Correct giants Uh, maybe they act like foam or a crushers and just smash terrain and deal mortal wounds to people around them All right, or literally knock over terrain or whatever Or remove train from the table remove terrain from the table. Yes. They're just like nope. This thing's gone now crush How amazing My favorite world ever I would break down I would I would destroy all the boats bring your stupid boats I will crush them to splinters. Uh, it would be like the old grand alliance destruction ability that was my favorite thing in the game Where you could destroy terrain Why doesn't it exist? Uh, get your get this out of here Yeah Uh, I would take it every time I would pay any number of points Uh at any rate, but the point is that when people's fun, that's all I'm saying Yeah, well, you know, I want to have my own fun and if that means breaking your boats, then that's life Um, I'm gonna uproot your dumb trees when I knock over your hurt stones I'm gonna ruin. I'm gonna bow tithe tithe this. Okay. I'm gonna take that thing and turn it into a spear and throw it back through your head at any rate um the Alex said that's why we have two boats. It's a good point. Um at any rate the um But you get what I'm saying, right? Either on the scroll or in the allegiance or in some way you have an attitude You're you're interacting with that space. That is a game design element terrain Right do something with it. It's a big part of the game Every army should touch on it in some way. Okay And the spells same thing It's a big part of the game now So either you have yours fine if there's and the spells that fit and you're a very magic army Or you have neat tricks you can do with them, right? Like seraphon and cities great cool Or you have ways to interact with them like you can push them around move them dispel them You know that kind of thing right where you just you don't care about them Cool. So so just like as long as everybody's sort of uh Fights along those along those or you know those it's constructed along those boundaries Sure, then I feel like we're in the right place I don't disagree with that. Yeah And and just the when you when you come up to a project and say which one is the right one My hope would be the answer to that question is well, what makes sense for this army? Yeah Yeah, I don't disagree with that And mafesto once my giant army comes out. I will happily grudge you and I will happily shove that nexus right back up catacrosis Nexus, uh, right right back. I'll gladly pay my tithe. That's what I'll say So at any rate, there you go. That's uh There you go. That's your uh, that's your that's your terrain army training and the spells But of course, I want to know what you think we've given a lot of opinions. This was a hot take show So drop your opinions down in the comments. Leave them over there. Uh, this is a shorter show tonight Because I'm a little under the weather. I'm still recovering But we'll be back next week As usual next week will be a still not on the road next week, which is good And uh, hey, if you like this hit that like button. It's right down there somewhere. It's over here It's in this area do it hit the button Because hitting like makes a big deal. It helps you will find it the subscriptions goes wonky all the time It's hard for people to find stuff. YouTube is an ever-changing morass of complexity and so the more you hit that little like button The more it helps other people find the show, which we greatly appreciate Uh, yeah, good tom I for those in the comments was my camera like cleaner. Yes It was okay. Yeah, I mean I can see it clearly and a couple people commented as such by the way The only time it got weird is when you moved way in and out and it had to refocus all of a sudden other than that It's fine. That's it. It's interesting. Okay. Good enough. Yeah, there you go Uh, so There you go. All right. Well, very good. Thank you everybody Hit like like I said, that's greatly appreciated. But as always tom fun as always, sir Hot discussion tonight, uh, but for all of you out there. Thank you so much for watching We always appreciate it and as always we'll see you next wednesday