 morning time, so it's kind of an experiment. And we're super happy to have Kosuke Kawaguchi with us today. So Kosuke was one of our speakers for VoxTaste Singapore last year. And we were trying to have him come again this year, and then the conference was cancelled because of the of the virus situation. But we thought let's still do like some like a virtual meet up with Kosuke. He's based in the West Coast, so it's like afternoon time for him. That's why we made this time walk. And he just joined a new company called Launchable. And we'll be talking about open source. So yeah, Kosuke, I think you can take over. Yeah, all right. So yeah, so since this is a, you know, quote and quote, nice code is small room. So I kind of hate to make this like a one way thing. So feel free to interject them like I should like insert your narratives. I think that'd be more fun. All right. So so let me first kind of introduce a little bit to myself. So I'm, you know, I am so I am the open source go way back. You know, I was originally grew up in Japan. And then I moved over to the US. And thanks to the job opportunity here. And then that kind of what made that possible is actually my open source work that I did on the side in Japan. And then, you know, then I went to some, some micro systems for a while. You know, that company doesn't exist anymore, which is a shame. But at some side was part of the team that effectively became a guinea pig, the open source job. So they are like, you know, so that kind of saved my work at some. And also that was around the same time I was having lots of side projects in open source, one of them eventually became Jenkins. And so that created that I'd need to kind of leave the sinking ship that is the sunset Oracle and then join the be a part of the planning team about a new startup called crowd these. And so that gave a lot of interesting experience for me. So in every part of the life, like I feel like open source was a part of my journey. So like, so you probably hopefully you didn't be surprised why I feel like I saw such a passionate love is open source. You know, I felt like it gave me a voice as an engineer to speak to the world. You know, oftentimes, I think we are like, you know, we don't really have audience, except for the open source, like when you can connect with other developers. And also you can compete at the world stage, right? If you feel if you feel like you're good, you're good at what you do, then there's no faster way to show it to the world that through the open source. So I felt like it created this incredible level playing field. And you know, in Japan, where I came from, like it's not really a part of the world. It's not a well, and it has the texting, it's not a part of the well connected world. So I felt like open source kind of gave help me break out of that. And then, you know, I'm also feeling like I'm connected to the world everywhere I go, that could be Singapore or Europe or India, like I know people who are from there, like I was involved in some capacity in some open source projects. And it's a wonderful feeling. And then so I owe that to open source as well. And then finally, like every human being, I think derives from joy out of making somebody you can see happy. And I think the opening and hearing, we are kind of disconnected from our customers, like the people we are making happy, right? Except for open source, when like you can directly interact with people using your stack, and they often appreciate what you're doing. So that was also a great feeling. So again, like, oh, you know, like I just love open source. And I, you know, so I also think that open source is the best software-developed model like in the mankind has ever invented. And that's a strong statement. But if you think about the fact that, for example, you know, the open source for this gets worked on by so many different people, you know, and that diversity, the many eyeballs effect as the Linus called it once, I feel like that's, you know, I think you can demonstrably see that the quality of the great open source projects are for better than most of the proprietary software projects. And in an open source product also tends to have this like a long, no, no more continuity. Like it's not on the, it's not, it doesn't fall into the victim of a window of the management direction change or the new CEO deciding what else to do. Like open source, that's kind of a way of keeping on like a stable environment to make the good engineering happen. That's often hard in a commercial environment. And then we can have, you know, people around the world, like a participative, kind of, first of all, forward, you know, the incredible speed of adoption and feedback cycle that it creates. And, you know, like, I mean, I can't go on and on, but really, like I just look at all these projects that we depend on. So, from the next comment, that's like, we get us on the cloud, to the GCC tooling change, they whatnot. So, it's all pretty amazing if you think about it. So, I feel like there should be more open source projects. I want that to thrive more, but I think there's this like a challenge that's kind of fundamental to the open source, which is, you know, because we live in the capitalist society, right? So, something being good and great as a cause is not enough. Like, we have to be, like, it has to kind of gear has to mesh with the economic reality. So, this is the quote from one of the Japanese guys. I don't think he's actually well known outside, but I said what he said, and I'm kind of translating here, is like, you know, the economy without morality is a crime, right? Like, just a pure pursuit of interest without thinking about the good is not okay. But likewise, the pursuit of morality without economy is also just a division because like it just not, you know, it can't happen. And I feel like, at times, like all people who feel like who believe in open source, sometimes forgets that this economic reality exists. And so, that's something like I wanted to kind of talk about here today, which is to say, for open source to thrive even more, and then I gave you the reason why I wanted to thrive more, and I hope some of you feel the same way. You know, more people need to understand how open source can be a viable part of the business, not just some good thing that we do on the side or like a social good, right? And then to tell the story, I kind of need to go through the history of open source first to kind of lay the context. So, the scene, the first scene that starts is 1985. I think it was in fact, this was the age before the war, the open source gets invented. And this is set in Boston, in the eastern coast of the United States. And so there was this movement, it's almost like a revolution to bring the freedom. And that was kind of how it was by this man, Richard Stolman. And the basic idea is like his slogan was almost like, users need to unite, and the programmers need to unite to take their fate back into their own hands. And so that was almost like the mantra and the slogan. And that was a banner under which this whole GNU thing happened. And then that was, well, I guess for people here, GNU need no introduction. But the mental picture of these people, I think is pretty more like a Star Wars. You have these rebel warriors, small in numbers, but they're very smart. And they can outwit and fight with the galactic empire and the guerrilla tactics. And that's really what the GNU is kind of like a mental picture of that. So you can imagine, actually, that kind of like a stance of the very strong ideological appeal to some people, and mostly like a college people, right? And it's like, so screw this economic priority, like forget the business. The whole idea is like, we're going to build this thing where everyone can use for free. It's amazing, right? So no one they caught on in universities. And then, as I said, like a great many software written under this banner, and the visa deal with the city mascot that we use still to this day. But that was back then, that was the beginning. But just as a side note, like, do you remember how this like a liter of stolen got kind of sidetracked? I think it was maybe the last two, three years, you know, he wasn't even like he made some somewhat insensitivity more to I think that like a child sex trafficking, crying or whatever, like he wasn't even part of it, he was just making a subperson commentary. And then that offended enough people and then like MIT like a quickly kind of cut him out. So that was I was kind of shocked to see this icon, this icon to kind of build the entire year of them for us cast aside that easily. And that sort of speak in some sense, like about how times have changed, right? So, okay, moving further along with the time. So now it's like another 80s, like a 90s and 2000s. So the next generation of open source expansion actually came through Microsoft, not because Microsoft helped it, because Microsoft acted as a common enemy to unite like everyone else. So and then you can't really imagine from today's Microsoft because like they somehow became a good guy that everyone loves. But you know, back then, for those of us old enough would remember that back then Microsoft was called the evil empire. People used to use the dollar sign instead of S, the Microsoft S. So that's how people hated it. But you know, evil or not, like he was a really mighty powerful software empire. And then a lot of people like it might have been created, but like their own track to the world domination, kind of like how you know, the Amazon might be hitting today. So quote unquote, the smaller companies. And when I say smaller companies, it's company like sign or IBM or Oracle, they simply, they couldn't compete with Microsoft on their own. So they needed to work together. And then so that's how did they come together? And like they found their interest aligned well, aligned very well with this freedom fighters that they mentioned from like a GNU. So that's how this whole like this era, that's how this era of open source was shaped. So a party like originally sort of like I was created as a face to run the HTTP server, like that that was the namesake. But, but the SM and IBM, like those two companies, when they were exploring how they could work together, like somebody decided, okay, this open source foundation, maybe we could use this as umbrella to like bring people to work together. So because you know, this back then it wasn't common for these companies to work across the corporate, you know, corporate boundaries. So people were like, okay, I guess we could try and then I was the XML, XML password project. So he was kind of close to where I was at some, and then that's how the Apache kind of completely changed morphed into something different. And then kind of taped away for Apache that it's today, it's like a big umbrella of so many open source projects. And then so this model of creating a foundation for the open source kind of started, and then that brought a lot of other foundations that I just didn't hear. And then that built the whole another era of open source. I'm sure like many of you use many of projects that came from these guys. But you know, like, don't don't make this mistake that like this is this wasn't just, you know, like we don't like developers working on the weekend and night shift to promote the public good. This is almost like a game of serotonous diplomacy is like the war and like the people like are shaking hands in one hand, but like a fighting is another kind of thing going on. So there was a drama, this is diplomacy, like an ego, like a bigger than like the years. I was like all these dramas here and I was watching to kind of what some of them unfold right in front of my eyes. So like a many open source developers of this era, actually or fully employed, you know, highly paid engineers who are working for some of these tech companies. So like I'll give you like a one interesting story, but this for me. So back then it's no pastor that I mentioned, right? Like it's a pretty well, it's a it's a small piece of software that only does one thing causing XML. So like high, you know, high boring, right? I mean, but back then, the control of XML pastor brought so much influence to various XML standards that you can define. So some of these vendors like IBM and Sun, they wanted to kind of shape the direction of XML into their own liking. So they needed to be able to control this pastor that so many people use. So they know, so they spend a lot of, you know, like a number of smart engineers working for time on this external pastor. And we even have like a patch, even have like a two, actually three separate external pastors at one time because like a demand was so high. And of course, like, we all know what happened to XML, right? Like it was like completely forgotten on the wayside around like if you sell on something. So when the interest moved on, these people, these companies stopped investing in these projects. So now patches like with like the two separate like external pastor projects with small number of people. So but what was amazing to me, then what happened was like these three group of people figured out the way to join their efforts together. So that's like a consolidated their effort to under one banner sources to say inherited the name from one and then like they brought in like a bunch of code from the other. So that's kind of like a high, you know, that the marriage could happen, right? So I felt like, wow, this was a great power for open source. One, you know, like this tech companies who have this competing interest, they're trying to influence the future of the technology back then XML was that. But this open source process was able to kind of hold together and then turn that into a positive movement forward. And when the interest moved on, like they didn't like it, they were able to kind of bond together and utilize the remaining resources as well. And then kept on going. Right. So external pastor is no longer a sexy thing, but it's still something that a lot of people use. So thanks to this open source. So that I thought is another like a story that shows the power of open source. And then this was also around the time the open source, the open model had shifted. So back in the days of GNU, it wasn't, it wasn't like this crap open source wasn't actually, you know, the corroborated places with prerequisites and things like that. It was more like, like a one super hacker driving the project. And then like other people helping what they can, right? Like the Emacs, you know, the grossing or a storm, V.I. was invented by Buzio and so on and so forth. So lots of projects are like that. But as the more people started participating in open source, this kind of model simply didn't work very well. So this was a time like the whole notion of the cathedral versus bizarre got invented. And then so the open source paradigm kind of shifted to something that we think of today, which is lots of people scratching their own collectives and then like a whole thing becomes bigger and more valuable. Like you might even call it like a mob programming or mob development. And then that theory was given to kind of celebrate that idea, which was Eric Raymond's the famous my pester. So that is open source to got even bigger because like it helped it to move successfully, remove some of the bottlenecks. And then I think a good example of this, like that is probably a GCC and a level VM. So GCC has originally been used like a compiler projects that was back then huge. And then the level VM came along more liberal license, but more more it was designed to be more modular, which allows more people to develop like a simultaneously. So people are able to expand it in so many different crazy ways. Like some people even ported this over to JavaScript. And then you solve those things all of these things was made possible and they made it more valuable. So now, like at some point, I don't know exactly when that happened, but at some point in the past, it will be included to cover GCC in terms of the values, speed, you know, so that's, I think, is a defective of the open source paradigm changing this era. So and then came the next year. And I think of this as like a year of open source startups. So, so, you know, I mentioned like high open source can get to like a worldwide adoption incredibly quickly. I think the recent example of that might be like a Docker or, or I think elastic. So, you know, the so when you're number one in any space, you can do a lot of things. And I can tell you that because like I saw the, you know, Jenkins group with these huge things and that allows me to do so many things that's otherwise possible. So, so, you know, so the thinking as well, you know, that's so long as if you can, if you can sort of like, if you can effectively own this, like a number one project that everyone is using, and you can get the incredibly fast maybe using like a year or two. And then like something along the way, if you can only figure out how to monetize somehow, like 100 somehow, then like you'd be amazing, you'd be doing amazing business. So that was the, you know, mindset of the open source startup. And then I mean, in some sense, it's like incredibly naive. But at the same time, like if that was the previous input back in the days of the startups in the top comments, so a lot of companies came out of this era, like some of the names popular ones are like a spring, you know, J-Vos, Red Hat, I think the huge source, like the Hashi Corp. Some of them survived. I cannot, some of them died, but you can see like all of these guys, like kind of less than more. And then crab is like the company that I helped find. That was also kind of coming out of trading and this airport. So I've seen in the first hand, like how interesting such challenges it is to try to monetize open source. Like we did everything from like a support training, like enterprise version, like a services, all of that. But so that was clearly like, you know, these companies spent a lot of effort making open source better. So that was great. Now, I kind of find it ironic that the venture capitalist, like that's like a symbol and icon of the capitalism, pushing, like a funding all the money into open source, which is like a symbol and icon to the communism is how I think about it. Like it's free stuff, you know. So it's like ask getting money back from those like a bankers and that is just not that concept. And so, yeah. So that was, I think that actually really moved the state of open source forward. So it's so far I looked at these like a city protagonist of open source, right? You know, did he kill at some young age to the vendors, like doing the game of thrones and to the world of startup. But that wasn't the end of the story. Like these guys are still around. But they are not the, they are not the center stage anymore. So because there is somebody else in the center stage in the spotlight in the world of open source. So that is where we are today. And then I think of today's open source zero, the end user companies. So what do you mean by end user companies? These are companies who do not sell technologies to other companies. So Sun, Microsoft, IBM, you know, they all sold that they are doing this like a open source in part to sell technologies to other companies. But now if you think about companies like Netflix or Facebook or Twitter or Spotify, like these guys are actually in many ways leading the open source, but they are not in the business of selling technology. They are selling music or ad or media or that sort of things. So I kind of find that like interesting, quite interesting change. And the reason I think this is happening is because I think now the end users are leading the technology innovations because they are, you know, they are, they are, they face interesting challenges at scale in ways that the many vendors do not. And then this was a kind of like a shocking reverence toward the end, my end of my tenure at Sun Microsystems, that we are supposed to be creating this, you know, like a middleware of the server side applications. But none of the people working there actually use it to build any significant services. So like in some sense, like we are invading the craft and hoping that this is going to be useful. And it turned out that in engineering, I think it's fundamentally a profession, their solution gets invented when they are a program. So if you don't really have the clear sense of what the program is, you can't solve it. So these, nowadays that's happening in the, in the, in these interesting end user companies. So they simply stopped waiting for the vendors to solve the problem for them. And at some point they decided that, okay, we need to solve our own program. And then since they are not in the business of making money out of it, like, that's pretty bad there. And then that's why I think this, I think this change has happened. So it's quite telling in many ways, like a cloud providers, you know, they all started from their internal systems, like Amazon wasn't originally started doing EC2 for the goal of seven years, they just needed to run the bookstore. So in the same as Google, like they needed their platform to build their own search engine and other apps. So I mean, I kind of talked about the Microsoft as a evil company, which you mean it's back, but Microsoft is truly actually the only exception where they, you know, they are, they are tech companies and they managed to build the cloud. So I think that just, so that just shows you how awesome that company is. I think it really is a unique company. So I guess in some sense, like Microsoft. But anyway, so, but, you know, why are these end user companies doing open source, right? I think it's important to realize that they are not doing without the answer. Like it's not just giving back to the community that they are doing this. And that's something I want to communicate here. Right. Because I feel like, you know, like many of us, the engineers, when we want to do open source, like I feel like we are telling to our bosses and like people around us, like, hey, you know, like, we've been getting so much out of open source, like we should pay it back or like, you know, we should, we should do our share. Like it's all great, like a moral value statement, but it's sort of like a devoid of the economic calculation. Right. So, so that's, I think. So that's what I wanted to talk, like, why, why are these end user companies doing open source? So the clearly, you know, some of the reasons are pretty easy to understand about on some of Monday, you know, like some things, for example, are not, it's simply necessary, but they are not the core asset. Like you have to do it because otherwise, like you can't, you can't have them, but they are. So these things are not asset, these are liabilities. So it's only natural to think like, let's just cut the cost of building, you know, building those by doing things together. So most many of the systems that we create in open source, like they tend to be like a lower middleware, like a lower in the stack, like a loading framework, whatever, like all these things are not, these are liabilities for most of the businesses. So that's not just inventing a thing. But so this is quite a viable pitch. But sometimes, you know, but, like, if you're open sourcing something, and then hoping to just, like, you know, you're doing your finger and waiting for the contributor to arrive, well, I mean, that's, you know, that's a kind of wrong approach. Like the whole, if the whole premise is to bring other people together to cut the cost, then that's something you need to go actively recruit. So don't just, don't just wait, but reach out to people, and especially others in the same boat. So, and especially, like, if you're in a second or third in the market in your domain, then that's a great opportunity because you have other companies who are trying to, like, catch up with the leader in the market. And then there's always a feeling, okay, we need to kind of up the game, like, let's not compete on these liabilities, like, we all have to do it, let's build this together. So, like, sometimes I feel like people falling to the trap for about zero-sum policy, as in, like, if you're, like, you're producing this for three, letting other people ride on top of it, like, therefore, like, they must be getting the benefit when you lose, which is actually not the case, right? I feel like open source is a great example of, like, a distinct tide rises on the boat. So I think this is a great pitch. However, that said, you know, building and designing something that works for multiple parties is fundamentally different from building something that only need to work for you. So I've seen a number of open source projects originally developed for some company, and then when they go out in open source, they have to spend lots of time reworking some of the, some of the, like, a lower-level plumbing so that they can accommodate multiple competing use cases and selectively use this and that. Like, a spin-netflix spinnaker was a great example. So that was a CD tool that the Netflix originally invented, like, a road for themselves. And as they open-sourced it, a lot of people liked it, the concept of it. But, like, when, let's say, like, a Microsoft wanted to work on it, like, they realized, oh, like, this is fundamentally tied to AWS. They couldn't just add the agile support, like, they have to invent the whole layer to the modularity. And then these things take a surprising amount of time. So if you're in the position to do this cost-election plane, that's something you need to watch out for. Get the right technology work and then kind of communicate, convey the expectation that that's what's going to happen. Otherwise, people feel like, oh, like, you know, the spinnaker didn't, like, it hasn't changed a lot at all, like, you know, but maybe, and that's, yeah, it's true from the user's perspective, how did it change? But there's a kind of a necessary transformation happening within, right? So, but another reason a lot of companies and the user companies to open source is, in order to appeal to developers, because, you know, developers are in such a short supply to the point that it's crazy. I hope many of you, I'm sure many of you feel the similar pain if you're involved in that sort of role. I mean, so this, like, the developer being in short supply is so bad that the price is going up the ridiculous number. And now I'm on the side of a, like, needing to hire engineers, by the way, we're hiring them. And so, like, I can maybe see it, like, in the, especially in the area, the price that the developers command is incredible. So companies need every possible means to, like, create a sex appeal for developers. And then open source is, is, it's clearly a one of those. So in some sense, like, you can almost think of some companies and, like, think of open source as almost as a part of the recruiting effort. Now, because as a developers, now we want to, you know, like, if you think about how we get how we feel rewarded or how we earn respect. As I mentioned, I think open source actually trades a very critical part, because most of us are working for, you know, a company where the source code, the program that we produce never leaves outside the company viable. Right. So all the beautiful amazing work that we do is completely invisible to anybody else. So that's, you can imagine how that's unmotivating, compared to, you know, like, let's say, like I wrote Johnson, who did spring, like, and you can see the code he wrote, you know, like, his name is very recognized them. And so that's the, I think, the part where they're all like a wow factor they're trying to bring in. And then another sort of a more subtle part of it is, you know, I feel like we engineers, we all want to work for a company who is practicing a sophisticated software development process. Right. Well, there is no, there's, I mean, no disrespect, but I don't know if enough people want to work for companies doing like a bank is doing lots of cover systems on the mainframe from 50 years ago. I bet they want to have a trouble recruiting people. So in some sense, like these open source projects are useful to show off the engineering level, high engineering level of the particular organizations. So, you know, that they have this, in some sense, that they have to solve this particular kind of program shows how far ahead they are in the game. Like, if you think about the lift doing envoy, as an engineer looking at it, you can tell that, oh, like these guys have to be doing microservices to such a degree, that they needed to, they saw this as a problem and they had to solve it. And then you want to be working for that kind of company to kind of absorb this like a head of the car, like a modern technology trend. And that would make engineering available next day. So it's almost like a dog we saw. And then that's, I think, an important part of the recruiting effort. So, you know, that said, so, I mean, that kind of ties to the employee happiness. It's not just for recruiting people. So at the end of the day, I feel like engineering isn't really the, isn't really the center of the universe, right? Like it's the discretion of what to build is less in your hands. I think we clearly control like how stuff is built. But, you know, how valuable it is, how valuable is a beautiful masterpiece if nobody can see it? So I think in many ways, we mean able to work on highly visible open source project is giving the opportunity for engineers, people working in the company to feel happy and stay engaged. And so that's, I think, is also an important part of the calculation for justifying why open source makes a business sense. So in many ways, I think, you know, if you're in the engineering leadership role, this is the kind of things I think engineering leaders can do for their organizations. So one is to create a scheme that allows people to show off their engineering excellence outside, right? So that requires helping stakeholders around them, maybe most of them are not technical. They understand why these things are valuable for their companies, like better recruiting or employee happiness. And then, you know, you can rally the organization around or and you don't want to just rely on the good views of the developers and their desire to be open source, like you can provide a lot of coverage. And then so there are many ways to show off this kind of engineering excellence that needs to be combined together. So open source is one of them, but it's usually not the only thing. So event appearance, like a blog post, like the foundation participation, like employee interviews, like all of these things could actually tell a story. So I think if you paint the picture like that, then I think you'll find a lot of nodding heads in people around you, as opposed to, hey, open source is good for like a social moral group. So I found HR to be my friend when I wanted to pitch open source in the company. They have metrics like how many days their position are open to close developers. And if you can show a dent in those numbers, then that's the easy way to justify why these things are good. And then in doing all this work, like your influence of the engineering leader inside of the organization is going to also increase. So that's good for you too. And then, yeah, so these, I think that's like, these are the kind of things that matters. And if you just in case you're feeling like, oh, well, you know, I'm just a frontline soldier, like I'm not, I'm not in the leadership role. Like one thing I want to tell you is this kind of, like, it's not so much like you get promoted into the leadership role and start doing things, doing these things. It's rather like a company promotes people who are working above their altitude. So if you start to think and act like an engineer and you don't end up in the company, we'll make you. So these, like, if you want to make this kind of, if you want to see this kind of change happening in your world, then this would be a great opportunity for you to actually start living in that space. And then, you know, then, when the world gets more open source, which I love, and this is what the, I guess the Gandhi said it once, right? Like, what would be the change you see for something like that? So I think this would be a great example. So, and then if I may go for a little bit on tangent, I think, you know, I think the developers around the world across the whole industry, I think we need to unite. I think one of the things I want to really make it happen is like, we deserve our version of the Academy Award. You know, the Academy Award, like the movies, how do you does it every year? Like they bring out the entire professions around movies, not the most famous ones, like the best movie or best actor. So those everyone can see that they actually have a lot of categories for people who aren't so visible, like the best, one is the best hairstylist or like a best screenwriter, and so on. So, or best lighting, the best camera lens. So these are kind of designed to celebrate like an invisible part of their industries. I think we need the same thing in engineering, like we should celebrate like the great engineering accomplishments, maybe like whether individuals are teams. And then we should have these like all sorts of categories, like I don't know, like the best SRE team or best middleware or whatever. And then the whole idea is to cast the spotlights, the roles and people who aren't normally visible. And then like we should let the winners proudly wear the badge on their regimen, like I put them on their company website, you know, like I make other people notice. And these visible repetitions that doesn't close using the company, I know it's going to get the eyes. I know it gets attention, like the people itself feeling, oh, I guess engineering team in your company must be pretty good because they won this award, right? If you think about the marketing people in your company, like they have no clue what you're doing, but they surely they understand our world. So that's a whole idea. And if people can start building their repetitions, that's not closed using a company, then I think it's going to increase the liquidity of the engineers. Like it makes it easy for us to go from another one place to another. And when people move around, authorities also go up. And so I think that collectively, we can be ourselves a great service, just by serving like a busy big unit ourselves. I'm pitching this every time and everywhere I go. So I think that's going to be amazing. So I think that's going to raise a pie for every engineer and then the same for Indian leaders. So I'm looking forward to seeing our version of Academy award. But anyway, like I digress. So I talked a lot of ways in which like open source can make, you know, economic sense. So I think that for me, the greatest case study of that is Netflix OSS. So Netflix, I don't think Netflix is a company need interactions, but at one point, I think maybe 10 years ago, at this point, they open source their middleware stock. So they needed to write a lot of services and apparently some parts of Netflix. So like, okay, let's build like a common platform together so that their engineers can be productive. But the great thing about them is they didn't stop them, stop there. And then they just open source it. But that wasn't the only thing. If that was the only thing they did, like they wouldn't be dispute. They also combine this is a technology blog. So it wasn't just the source code, but it was talking about this explanation and narrative of why these pieces kind of work together to enable the cutting edge development practices. And then they did a media campaign tied up with AWS because this was around the time AWS needed some iconic companies who are doing the cloud native. They are having trouble painting this clear picture of what kind of software development that tried needs to look like. And so Netflix kind of fit the deal. So they went everywhere talking about how awesome the Netflix as an engineering organization is. And then it's actually, but these are carefully manicured public image. And if you actually was inside Netflix, you would have noticed that the things weren't that rosy inside. It was a company who grew up very quickly. So like lots of people doing lots of things in every pocket. So what they did was they used this platform team, used this external visibility to drive the standardization within the company. So in some sense, this marketing campaign they're putting to the rest of the world also worked for the developers within the company. So this platform that I'm seeing on this like an AWS reinvent and all the technology, but that does look good. So we should be using it. So they were able to use that to drive more standardization is a company. And then they did this developer event. I showed up in one of those. So they are that it kind of makes, they make it then look and feel like a meetups. But if you go there, recruiters are waiting to take your like a contact information. So they know how they are doing the free sourcing, like it's amazing. And then the perception of Netflix like among developers went up quite visibly. So like I'm sure you've seen how awesome this like a chaos, chaos engineering like that came from Netflix. So all these things really like improved the perception that we have to the Netflix engineering organization. And the leader, like Adrian Hopcroft became famous for that. And then he didn't stay in Netflix. Like he used that credibility to go to, I think he did a like a venture capital once a few years and then he moved on to Amazon. So like he went into a completely different career trajectory because of this. So that is still like, you know, this is a kind of like open source play that has a strategic value to the company, right? Like it's kind of knocked off so many like bars with one stone. It's kind of crazy. So this is like, you can see how this is different from, you know, like somebody, some engineer in some team thought, oh, this is a useful library. So that's open source. It's a much more specific move. Like it's like, there's a difference between almost like a kids based lobby versus like a major league based for kind of like altitude difference going on here. So when I talk about the economy by a video book and source, like this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I think there's a lot of opportunity to paint this kind of big picture and mobilize a bigger part of the company and then get yourself promoted and make more money. And then the world gets more open source. It's the wing, wing, wing all across. So let's just talk, let's talk briefly about the open source program. It's not to use open source statistically like Netflix did. I think this is a kind of key lever to have. So I think enough people consume open source that I don't think like an inbound aspect of the open source program office needs for the explanations like anything to educate people about how to consume those like a licensees, like what it takes to comply with source terms, like all of that digital stuff. But what I want to spend a little more time on is like outbound. Like if you're trying to rally the organization so they can capitalize on open sourcing the way like a Netflix was able to do, it's the outbound that you should think about. So I mentioned this before, but I think it's important to clarify the benefit of contributing to open source for the organization. I think for technology people it's obvious, but the business is mostly in all the technology people. So you need to train these in ways that like a father's the goal of the organization is. So I gave you some of those. And then like open source program office also should be working with the legal and branding like these are like a grinding pain or work that needs to happen before the company can sign off doing anything in the open source. And then the engine, if you ask the engineers to take on that's enough struggle to de-shade them from continue to do open source. So that's an important thing that the open source program office can cover. And then the these sort of things might be sort of less obvious, but there's actually a gap between. So it's the engineers in the various business office had these challenges and then they choose to solve it by this brilliant code. So they are the one that's mainly pushing it forward, but there's a gap between what they want to do versus like the corporate open source objectives that I mentioned that's necessary to hide to the business. So it's things like a designing. I'm talking about this like a user interface design or web design and marketing, community management, or dealing with the module ID or processing, in-band PRs, all of that requires effort and time and those are not like a line which are be used goals like the BU is trying to maximize their profit. And for them, this project is just a means to the end. So their engineers are always tied to that goal. So some additional things need to be plugged in from outside. And I think of the open source program office as a place to do it. So if most of the place, one thing I always wanted to try, like I didn't get around doing it, even a copy. I think the open source program office is a great place to be rotating. You don't need this to be a full-time role, like a full-time position. I think this would be a great position to turn it into rotating position. So let's say like every month you're bringing somebody and then I can let them work on say in-band PR processing. It's kind of like a sabbatical, except it's not sabbatical, it's in the company. So I think I find them in many teams, there's always some engineers who are not fully passionate, fully engaged. They're just in the distribution level. And sort of looking for a change, they need time to be charged. I think the open source program office is a great place to let them have it. Because the whole goal of the open source is like you want to make it easy for new people to join the project and make some impact and move along. Like most of the open source contributors are like full-time people. They just, what I call, drive by contributors almost. Like they had some specific hits, they solve it and then they move on. So like a project needs to be really accessible to these new people. So when the open source program office itself is constantly consisting of new people, then they constantly feel this pain of what's making it difficult for new people to join. So I think it's a great way to make rotation happen. And then like it's only if you're only putting that like an engineer one month, it's like it's just long enough that it's valuable for them, but it's short enough for their managers that they want like a higher replacement. So I think it's like a great thing. So anyway, I think as I talked a bit about the open source program office, but really that if you're seriously looking into this, and I think the Linux Foundation has this excellent open source guide for the enterprise, and you can see a lot of people who know what they're talking about, spending a good amount of time capturing their thoughts in this. So I highly encourage you to recommend this material. All right. So that's today. So there is open source going. And that's a kind of false errand to try to predict the future. That's okay. I just want to say whatever I want to say. So I'm really sort of, I think the Linux Foundation is a very interesting organization. It's like it's different from many other open source foundations that was the centerpiece of the previous era. So why is that? I think it's partly because in the Linux Foundation, the companies of cross class citizens in a party, for example, it's not. So GNE or like a free FSF is almost fundamentally against this kind of like a corporate software development. So the next foundation is truly unique in that regard. And what do you mean by company being cross class citizens? Now the next foundation is business of open people like who's job is to work is like a corporate books. They have sales and marketing engines. They have a customer relationship management with the open source people in various vendors. And they have this mechanism to combat this participation from the companies into money. Like you have to pay in like every part of the company needs to pay in like tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to the next foundations. So in some sense, like they're siphoning off that money and then they're converting that money into people of specific skills that's difficult to get like designers, the community managers, documentation, like all this, you know, the open source product has a built-in mechanism to attract engineers, but the incentive just doesn't work for people of other professions. So the next foundation can actually use the money to do that. And in that, I think that never happened. I don't think it used to be a book in source before the next foundation. So and then they are also very pragmatic. Like they understand the economy by really like a high to make things or in ways that's not relying on ideology. So I think I value that a lot. And another thing I'm sort of seeing is like a more accelerated movement in building undifferentiated commodities together. Right. So I think the open source that I grew up is, you know, the stuff that's done for engineers by engineers, like the compiler operating system, middleware, it's all the stuff that we use. Right. But I think the feature of the open source is actually more of that is happening in a specific business domain and then building stuff that's not targeting for developers. It's like it's a result of a careful consideration of where we are competing, like where we need to like build together. So it's like a very strategic decision. It's like a great example. That is an academy software foundation, since I mentioned about the academy award. So this is like a, if you look at this academy software foundation, you'll see the participants, like a food, soup of the movie industry, like Dreamworks, Disney, Warner Brothers, Sony Pictures, and so on. So they're all making movies together. Well, they're all competing when it comes to making movies, but they realize like some of the stuff that they need to make movies are highly like a software driven, like a visual sound effect and all that stuff. When they are, they correctly recognize that they are commodities, they are necessary liabilities, but they are not differentiated. Like they, you know, nobody goes to go see a movie because the software they use to produce them, it's good. Right. That's just not going to happen. So another amazing thing for this academy software foundation is the hardware vendors also part of it. Like if you think about companies like NVIDIA, they are kind of like, their challenges are commoditized in different ways. Like they do not usually have a direct access to their customers that they are trying to appeal to. They are often like pushed behind the common API. So they cannot really deliver their differentiated innovations to their customers without middleman, like I guess in this case, like AWS or like a Maya or something. So, you know, the NVIDIA, it makes sense for NVIDIA to join the academy software foundation because they can deliver, they can work directly with their customers. And so that was a great example. Like I was in the next foundation event the other day and I met with a guy from Allianz, like a big insurance company. And then they are saying they are working together with Microsoft to bring some of that insurance platform. Like they said, one of the things that every insurance company has to do is to keep the record of all the insurance contracts. And that has to survive for multiple decades, which makes sense. So they need a computer system to do with it. But again, it's not a differentiator. It's a commodity. So they are building these things and offering that into a service. I saw a similar movement into the e-government, like a city of Paris is open sourcing the software that they use to run the city. Because, you know, there are lots of cities like Paris that could benefit from them. And then city of Paris shouldn't be putting all the bill, right? And then what's different is like this is a foundation that I mentioned in the previous slide. They are in the business of creating this kind of open source foundation, wherever the opportunities arise, as they can profit from it, essentially. So now there's an economic machine that they are to make this more smooth. And that's making the thing move so much faster. And this is kind of like a strategic level. The open source is playing a role. Like you can actually, I imagine in the DreamWorks board, they talked about this, let's build this. This open source is our visual effects programs that we develop to do whatever because it's in our interest. And that's a pretty significant conversation. So that's the kind of play that the open source is doing nowadays. So really, I think open source is going places and it's only going to grow. I think, you know, it's in so many ways for developers, it's a means to get their names known in the world stage. It's a means for connecting developers across the world. I already mentioned that this is the best ever software development method that we have ever invented. Open source prevents these kind of monopoly rent seeking activities that these end users can get trapped by. It's a way to ask the joint hands across the corporate boundaries and move the comable forward. And it's expanding domains beyond the technology middleware. And it's driving, it's bringing the better economic viability. So really, there's so much more that you can do beyond just writing patches. There's nothing wrong with writing patches, but there's so much more opportunities. So grab them. And in doing so, you will be also doing good to the world. Please, like a mega difference. So on that note, I think this is the end of what I wanted to talk about. So any thoughts, questions? I hope I didn't put you down back to sleep. Yeah, I think we have five minutes for questions. Did I completely lose the audience? I'm sorry if this didn't resonate at all. Okay, since nobody... Well, if you're speaking, I think you're muted. So please do check. I guess, is the open source seen in Singapore? Like, is that a pretty active part of the tech scene over there? Or are there people who are mostly just on the consuming side without producing? I'm trying to think like, if I know any open source products that came from Singapore, I can't think of it. That's a good question. Maybe I can answer from what I know. Me, Michael, you will have more perspective as well. But for me, actually, when I moved to Singapore, I was very keen on knowing who is contributing. The only people I knew were like two very active contributors on the Jay Hipster project. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. And the thing is that they are still contributing to Jay Hipster, but they moved out of Singapore. Okay, that could be great though. I mean, if that... I don't know... I mean, yeah, I don't know that project very much in terms of our origin and history, but maybe let them do some job opportunities outside. Yes, it is. And they moved to Europe, both of them, and they are happy in Europe. And yeah, Michael, do you know anybody in Singapore who... Actually, there is the trace-together application right for... Yeah, that's kind of... Sorry, I can't hear you. Oh, okay. Yes. I think we cannot hear you anymore. Yeah. Hi guys, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, wonderful. I have a question actually. So, by the way, when you started Open Source and kind of started contributing heavily to the Jenkins project, how did you kind of divide the time? I mean, at some point, I suppose you had to give up the... I mean, just allocate all your time to the Jenkins project, right? And how did the transition go? I'm wondering. So, in that case, I was lucky. So, early on, someone was one of those big companies, and then I wasn't... I wasn't kept busy enough. So, like, I had enough spare time. So, the project started as my side thing, but I was using it at the workplace. And then over time, like a more and more of my group started relying on it. So, pretty soon, like the next thing I noticed, the whole floor, about 200 people, people building Java, they needed Jenkins to kind of keep things going. So, I used to say, okay, so they find bugs or issues or other suggestions. And I used to say, okay, that's a great idea. I'm going to work on this weekend and I'm going to come back next week. And at some point, my manager came and said, okay, this program is like, we need to solve now. So, you can work on it during the daytime. That's fine. We need a proper solve. And I said, it's totally like I started into, became a part of my day job. So, that was lucky. I don't think, I think, I know, not everyone has that sort of luxury. And then the sun kind of went down the tube and it became Oracle. And so, I wasn't like, I wasn't a difficult choice for me to leave Oracle. And then, so that kind of jumped to the next company. And then the rest is history. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot, Kosuke. It's 9 a.m. here. So, I think people are going to start their day job. All right. Yeah. Thank you very much. It was awesome to have you with really great presentation. Yeah, I'm sure we have you again soon in one of our meetups. Okay. Have a good day, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye. Bye.