 Really happy to be here with Sarah. I feel like Sarah, you and I do similar things. We have a similar heart and we have similar kind of business marketing skills. So we kind of, that's why, you know, I say authentic, I don't care about whatever language, but you talk about humane marketing and there are other cool terminology that I want you to bring into this conversation. So we are definitely kindred spirits. So I feel like those who are watching this and listening to this will get a lot out of this conversation. I'll just, yeah, I've really appreciated your work over the years. I think you have awesome content, which will be linked below, but I'll let you introduce yourself, how you like to talk about it these days. Yeah, thanks so much for having me, George, and yes, totally kindred spirits. And we've been in each other's orbits for a long time. So I'm Sarah's and a coach, I'm based in Switzerland. So that's probably one difference. I'm like, oh, I'm the other side of the world. And that's where I was born and raised. So I'm a hundred percent Swiss, but with the accent people kind of already always confused, are a little bit confused. So I like to say that because it does make things different depending on where you grow up, right? And so, yeah, I come from this European background. And the story that I usually tell now, and that wasn't always the case, is my upbringing story. Because I found out, you know, and people were reflecting that back to me that it's actually quite interesting. And I was almost like ashamed of it. So I grew up in what I call now a hippie commune. So my parents and a bunch of friends, they bought an apartment building together. And then we each had our own apartment in that building, but we had a lot of common space. We always had the doors open, everybody was just walking in and out of each other's apartment. And everything had to be decided together. So my parents had like, I think weekly or bi-weekly meetings. And so it was like a real commune, a mini commune, but it was a real commune community. A lot of experience with conflict resolution, I'm sure. Exactly. It's like, who's gonna empty the compost or, you know, dig up the compost this year? Or who's gonna cut the grass, all these conversations? And as a kid, to me, that was just like, that's how everybody lives. And then of course, as I grew up as a teenager, I'm like, people are like, why do people keep walking into your apartment? That's weird. So I noticed how, you know, my home was probably a bit different. And so it was kind of a story that I wanted to just lock away, had nothing, definitely nothing to do with business. It never came up in a business conversation. Until, you know, a few years ago when I had this kind of breakdown about marketing being the way it is and me not wanting to do it that way anymore. And then finally, I'm like, well, I think I just need to come back to the values that I've been raised with. I've always been raised with, you know, these ethical values and community values. And so it took for me to go back and actually, you know, kind of, yeah, embrace and love that growing up story. And so that's why I'm on my LinkedIn profile. I now have hippie turn business coach. And yeah, I really feel like I've come full circle. So that's the story I usually tell. I haven't heard you tell that story before. I think it's awesome, actually. And, you know, I feel like the environment grew up and was probably fostered better mental health, you know? And well-being then these days, there's so much isolation. You know, it's like being isolated is as damaging to our, not just our mental, but our bodies, our physical bodies as like I heard smoking or something like that, right? Damage is our body. So it damages the heart. Anyway, I love that story. And it's so interesting because you're telling of the upbringing and how it has transformed your philosophies and your business. Like, you know what, that actually, I have a childhood thing too. I'm not going to tell a long story, but basically as a kid, I always, this inquiry always niggled at me. I'm like, why do people go to work? Like they seem like they're not having fun. They seem like they're doing just to make money. And it's like, and I always questioned the adults. Like, do they feel like they want to keep doing this? Okay. Even as a kid, I kept quiet. And then also in school, I kept questioning, why are we learning this? What's the point of learning this trigonometry or whatever it is? Like, when am I ever going to use this kind of thing? And so like question of purpose and calling was always so alive for me. And now I, now that's why I say authentic marketing is the process of a business finding its calling. And it's like, so, so just by you telling the story, it kind of gave me permission to look at my own story and how it connects to my philosophy today. So I love that you are doing this and that you are telling this. And so can I just go in that direction a bit? I want to just... Yeah, let's go. Is this something you help others do is to mine their experience for the story that makes their business message or marketing much more meaningful? Yeah. I think what recently what I've added to my coaching page is that I want to help people find their life's work. Ooh, I love that. It's really about this, not just a job, just like you just said, right? Like why do people just have a job? I really do my best work with people who want to create their life's work. And so that means actually going back to, you know, what is your purpose? What is your passion? What is your calling? What is your why? All of these big questions that usually it's probably not the first business, right? Definitely wasn't for me with my LinkedIn consulting business. It was just a means to an end. And, you know, kids were small, so I needed a flexible kind of way to make a living. But then what I'm doing now with the humane marketing kind of hosting the humane marketing circle, the community. So really going back to my DNA, community is in my DNA. And so that is my life's work now. And so that's where I feel like I can support others to really, yeah, kind of like create something that they always knew was in them and, you know, help them kind of birth that into the online space. So, yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm so glad you're doing this and people can tap you for that, that service. So, okay. You've developed a framework that's pretty cool. I want you to show that to people. Yeah. Physically you actually have an image of it with you. And tell us about this. Yeah, I always mention my son Simon because he's the one who designed it for me and he made me a mouse pad. And so it's really handy to just hold up and show. So, yeah. We all need a son's name Simon too. Like that's great. Yeah, exactly. So basically when I looked at the seven Ps of marketing that we all know as marketers, right? And I'm like, well, I feel so outdated. So first of all, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Sorry about that. Go ahead. You said the seven Ps that we all know as marketers, I think a lot of the people watching this might not know what those are. Do you want to quickly run through that? Yeah. Okay. So there's this concept, and I'm gonna wrist my arm by the time. There's this concept of seven Ps of marketing that came out in the 60s, I believe. And so they've been around for a long time, right? And yet if you go to most universities, they still teach those seven Ps. And so some of the Ps, yes, they're just very needed in marketing, something like promotion or pricing. Yes, we need to look at our prices, right? But then there's also like, for example, the one that I kicked out was physical evidence. And I'm like, well, in a world that's so online right now, why do we need physical evidence still in the seven Ps of marketing? What we need more is, and that's how actually my seven Ps of human marketing are so different, is that we need to start with ourselves. That we actually, and it's exactly the journey that I went on, I'm like, well, in order to be a good marketer, an authentic marketer, a humane marketer, we need to find ourselves first so that we can actually be authentic, right? It's like, well, how can you be authentic? You can't just copy someone else, you have to go to that story. And so that's why the first P is passion. So that's all about, well, finding your why, finding your calling. And then the second one is personal power. And that's about what's unique to you. How are you different from others? Your story, like we just discussed, your values, I talk a lot about the worldview. So all of these things that make your marketing different from anybody else's marketing, because unfortunately, and you know this, and probably your viewers know this as well, it's like, there's so much of the same out there that if we don't take that extra step and go into the inner realm and really find out, well, what is it? How am I different? Then yes, we are gonna sound like everybody else, right? So yeah, those are the, that's how I looked at, I feel like that's what was wrong for me also with marketing is that we immediately went to the client. Everything was client centered, right? That's the word that we so often hear. And yet that creates this scarcity approach because we always feel like we need more clients, instead, if we start with ourselves then work on our abundance mindset, work on that we are good enough, right? If we start from a place of good enough and then actually think, okay, I'm gonna be good enough, I'm gonna put myself out there more of myself, more of my story, then the right kind of people are gonna resonate with that. And so it's a complete different energy than feeling like I have to chase after them. I love this, I can't tell you how helpful this is because you're right, it's sort of like this, finding your, I call it authentic power or your inner authority and grounding your whole marketing and business based on that instead of like having no center and always like becoming a chameleon to what others want. Now, of course, there is a need for market research and meeting people where they're at, but it comes from a place of strength. We become strong first before we can meet people where they're at in a way that provides excellence also. And your idea about the story and the personal power is what filters in the right people. I call it energy signature. I mean, I'm not the one to come up with that term, but as we tell our stories or give our messages, do our marketing, we are transmitting this energy signature out there and not everyone's gonna latch onto the energy signature, only some people won't and then some people will, like, oh my gosh, that's right for me. So thank you, thank you for the work that you're doing and kind of sharing this. I also wanna ask you about, since you talk about humane marketing, I think that's really significant and I want people to better understand what you mean by humane because, yeah, we don't usually talk about marketing as inhumane or humane, but you and I both know kind of what that means. So can you explain that? Explain what humane means and what's not humane, I guess. Yeah, there's an interesting story behind that as well and I think it has to do with my personal power because the minute I published my first book, which is now called Marketing Like We're Human, but back then it was called The Gentle Marketing Revolution, right? So my term, everything I built over two years was all about gentle marketing. And then unfortunately at two weeks after I published a book, I got a season desist letter and so somebody, another gentle marketer, basically just deposited that trademark and said you cannot use that anymore. And so from there, I then had to obviously darken out of the soul, you know, kind of. Yikes, I didn't know that, wow. Yeah, and so from there, I had to then go and find a new term. And once I understood this whole thing about trademarking and all of that, I'm like, oh, there's not that many terms that haven't already been used. And so it was quite challenging to find a new term that still had the same message because obviously all my messaging was already there. I just needed to replace the word gentle by another term. And so I remembered the social media dilemma, if you remember that documentary and they were talking about the Humane Center for Technology. And so I was really intrigued by that and I was like, wow, what if this word humane doesn't just apply to technology because clearly it meant using technology in a way that is human friendly, humane, compassionate, what if it also applies to marketing? And so that really then had me start to look at my website again and go with this fit. And then I came to my homepage and it actually said, let's bring back the human connection back to marketing. I'm like humane, human, it's all there. So the signs were all there. And so that's how this story behind humane marketing happened. And so really to me, it means gentle, kind, compassionate, pro-human, obviously, yeah, all of these things. You know, just first of all, that cease and desist stuff. And I just can't, I mean, you might know, I don't know if he knows about me or a lot of the viewers know, like I have such a passion for encouraging people to hold loosely to ideas in terms of ownership of ideas. Like I have, I'm never gonna trademark anything. I'm never gonna copyright anything. In fact, all of my content is uncopyrighted. I'm like, if you wanna use exactly the same words I use, if you wanna take my entire book, all my books are gonna copy, if you wanna take any of my books and just publish it and call it your own, go for it. Like literally, and don't even mention my name, right? It's like, it makes innovation, creativity so dampen that people are so holding on to certain words, like this is mine and not yours and you cannot use that anyway. That's my own thing. But I also think that humane marketing is powerful because there are certain terminologies in marketing that as we start looking at these terms people use, we're like, what, like, oh my gosh, that's true. Why are we using these terms? Can you tell us more about that? I wanna, yeah, lean into that a little bit. Why are we using, you mean other terms that? Like terms such as, you know, target audience. Oh yeah, yeah, like the inhumane terms. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, once you, obviously once you use a word like humane, then you start to actually really be picky about language and every sense of the words that we use. And just recently I published a blog post about humane marketing words that we love. So, you know, words like kindness, compassion and all of them ethically ethical and all of those. But then also at the bottom of the list, people ask me, well, what about all the inhumane words like target audience and squeeze page and sales funnel and, you know, there's tons. Once you start to really kind of be mindful or aware, you're like, my God, like what's with these words that we're using and so, yeah. That I kept, I mean, especially when you use these words to like plan your strategy and to talk with others about it, maybe you have a team or not or just even your own mind as how you relate to your audience as a target audience. Right. And you relate to the sales funnel. The idea is you, they're just numbers. You just manipulate them along this pathway until they pop out with profit or something like that. It's like the idea. And it's like words matter because it's how we relate to one another. And instead of sales funnel, let's talk about client journey, for example, or you talk about gentle sales path, which is very nice. You know, instead of a lead magnet, right? Which is like, what do we man, like lead magnet, whatever we man, like if your clients are metal, what are they? What are they? Yeah, I have this, you know, this sucking effect I see. The sucking effect. Oh, we're just like sucking everybody up. Also, it always assumes that the audience and clients are like automatons. Like they're not thinking in soulful beings. It's like, yeah, it's always very one-dimensional how we treat them. Whereas... I think that's a big part of both of our works, I feel that we need to give clients the power back or we need to treat them again like smart human beings that they are, right? And yet marketing has done so much damage over the last 10 years of, yeah, kind of like treating humans as if they were stupid. So we can lie and cheat in all our marketing and they're not gonna notice, but of course they notice, right? Of course they notice. They do notice. Thankfully now we have options. And so that's why marketing, yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but yeah. Yeah, it just shows that there's no surprise why marketers have like one of the least trust, right? In all the professions. It's because we have abused people's trust and now it's time to restore that and bring back the authenticity and the transparency in all of those things. Yeah, yeah. And it's so interesting because I feel like when I use the word authentic or we talk about authenticity, some people are authentically immature, you know? Or like authentically still, we might say young, you know? It's like they, not literally for age, but just in terms of their development of their psychology to the point where they understand, oh, it's not just about me. It's about we, back to your commune days, right? Like, but it's about like, we make each other better with our actions or we make each other more isolated or more, yeah, avoidant, resistant. And anyway, so I'm long story short, I really admire what you're doing and celebrate it. So tell us about, so there's a lot more, by the way, for the seven Ps, you obviously have, you know, content about this stuff and, you know, I'll link to your website, your LinkedIn, et cetera below so people can go take a look and you have such rich blog posts that people should look at. But I want you to tell us about, you have a workshop coming up about storytelling. This relates to how we started this conversation, so tell us about that. Yeah, thank you. I just also quickly want to mention the last P, which is partnership, which I remember, I think, either it was in a blog post or in one of your books, you also say, you know, partnerships or collaboration, I think you used is like such a big thing for us entrepreneurs and it goes together with the isolation that you mentioned before and that applies as well to entrepreneurs, right? So we really need to work together more often as entrepreneurs. And so that's exactly what I'm doing with these workshops. And this time I found a storytelling expert that I'm, yeah, just really thrilled with and I had her on my podcast. Her name is Hilary Rea. And she has this different approach to storytelling. I got kind of tired of the same old, you know, the hero's journey storytelling approach where everybody has to be a hero. And I kept thinking, I'm not a hero. I don't have a hero's story. So, you know, what's my story? What am I going to say? It's nothing's interesting. And so Hilary really also kind of says, you know, you don't have to be a hero. You don't have to have a PhD or a master's but what you do need to find out is your core story and how that relates to your people, right? So that there is this resonance. And that's not always easy. We hear that so often, I always tell your story but it's not always so easy. And so that's why we're putting together this workshop because it helps to actually we'll have someone walk you through it. But then also what we always do on our workshops and again, collaboration is we put people into breakout rooms of three and then they give each other feedback on that, you know, for this workshop here on the life story, the five word life story. And that is just so helpful. And yes, it's a little bit, you know, maybe outside of or stretching a little bit or comfort zone, but that's what we need to do as entrepreneurs, right? And it's just, it's a safe space that we create and it's super helpful to have these collaborations in the mini format like that. That's brilliant. I love that you're deconstructing or demystifying the storytelling from just about the hero's journey. Yeah, it's also quite one dimensional when it's supposed to apply to everybody. It starts to be boring. It's like, oh, yeah. That's right, that's right. It applies in some circumstances for sure and some people for sure, but I love that you bring more richness into it. So there'll be a link below for people to check it out. And what else, when anything else you wanna share and words of encouragement as we complete this conversation? Yeah, maybe I can just share the humane marketing circle because that's my life's work. So that's our community where we look at what works in marketing. So it's not a place where I teach, which is what you're very good at. But what we do is we just come together and talk and have conversation about what works for us in marketing and what we see. And I have people in there who are like, oh, I love what George is doing. And so it's really good to just have these conversations with people and find what works for us, for each of us, right? So there's no template approach, no blueprint, but that is so much needed right now. Again, it goes against isolation. We need to be in community. So that is my life's work, this humane marketing circle. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, there'll be a link below as well. Thank you so much, Sarah, for the work that you do, how you do it. The energy and the values that you bring into our field. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me, George. Thanks.