 Excellent. All right, let's call the meeting to order. It's the April 5th, 2021 regular select board meeting. We've got John Quinn, Dave Sawyer, Flo Smith with us from the select board, along with myself, Justin Lawrence. Tom Badowski is the voice of our town administrator this evening, I suppose. And we've got Vince Conti in chat. Any additions or changes to the agenda that we're aware of? No, sir. Any public comment? Hearing none, Treasurer's report. Okay, I asked the board if they will be late, these are under $5 for a total of $15.76. I sent the information to you on Thursday, showing you that there's eight different ones under $5. I made the motion to approve the $15.76 for the eight individuals. Second it. Any discussion? Is that an abatement? Is that an abatement of those taxes, Donny? Yes. Yep. It's typically, I mean, we do it all the time for $1.67 or sometimes less postage. All right. Any further discussion? All right, all those in favor? Say aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Perfect. Anything else Diane? Nope, that's all I got. All right. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Police chief update. He's here. He was here. He's coming back. He's just taking, he thought he had a minute. equipment. Yeah. Oh, I wanted to give a brief report on the training that I attended in Kentucky last month. Training was on management of small rural police departments. It's pretty fitting. A lot of useful information out of there. Little discouraging and all the different suits. It was a bit of an eye opener. The takeaway was there are a handful of high light building type of issues that can be addressed by policy and training. So I've made those my priority the first year of year that I'm on the job. Yeah. All sort of training those high light to make sure that our policy is aligned with what it needs to be. And we've already started to implement that. Put out to supervisors. We're able fortunately right now to attend a lot of the streams online. And I've got some grant funding to allow that to happen. The officers are already starting to cycle through and get those high liability areas. Excellent. Yeah. So will you be forwarding any of those changes over for the board, just so we can see what you're doing? I can just take a look at it. We're waiting to break it up. We're waiting for some changes and led. If you're breaking up, maybe you could take your video down. Okay. Can you hear me? Okay. How's that any better? Yes. Okay. I'm waiting for legislation changes before we implement any finalizations and policy. And then I'll bring it to the board. Awesome. Excellent. Thank you. You're welcome. Anything else, chief? I wasn't sure if there was some conversations that the board wanted to have an executive session. I believe we intended on doing that. That'll be later in the meeting. Okay. I don't hang out. Unless, I mean, I don't know. Do we tip, can we go into executive session now? We'd have to kick everybody out and then rejoin everybody. So it would be. Yes, we'll play to the end. Yeah. I was just trying to be, you know, conscious of this time. All right, next up on the agenda is a local options assessment discussion. What do we have on that? I requested that be put on the agenda so that we could have an open discussion in terms of going forward with that or whether we wanted to or whether we want to depend it for a later time. But just to have a discussion, you know, I know David's new to the board and we've talked about it, but we haven't put it forward. So I just wanted to know what others are thinking in that regard. Well, last time new flow, we were waiting for some additional information. I know we'd gotten some preliminary numbers from Vince on it. I'll check the chat to see if he's chiming in with anything or Tom, you can. But we were waiting, we were just kind of in a holding pattern to find out a little bit more on the pros and cons from what I understood. I mean, from a revenue standpoint, it looks like we would generate about $550,000 for taxpayers. But what we weren't aware of is, you know, what else would go along with it? So I think that's what we were waiting on some additional information. I don't know if anybody recalls anything different, but. It's about the same that I recall as well. And I just wondered if maybe Tom had additional information and or Vince, and I know Tom would give us that information tonight, of course, but yes, appreciated. So as Vince wrote in the chat, he has done an investigation and it looks like it would require a charter change. There's two aspects of the local option tax that are available. They're typical, what you call the sin taxes, the beer and alcohol taxes is one form of it. And I believe that another form of it is the general sales tax. So I believe and Vince can weigh in on this. I think that any charter change would have to speak to one or both of those. I think his recommendation would be that that we bake any of those changes into a charter change and then you could use those tools as you see fit. You don't have to use them, but if they're in there, then you have the capability of using them. Justin, I think you were right. I think that Vince thought it was about $500,000 between those two types of taxes. Right, okay. And from what I understand, a charter change is a lot of work and near impossible. Is that accurate? I don't have experience with it, but I believe since we, the town has made a couple of charter changes since I've been here, so it's not impossible. Okay. I can speak to that, if you don't mind. What we did the last time is we had a committee that got together for charter changes. They made choices on what they wanted to change. They revamped everything. I mean, they really took some time with it. And then after that, the board approved it. And then after that, it goes to the legislature. So it has been done. We did it probably about three years ago. Oh, okay. There was another topic that came up about a charter change and it was my understanding that it was very, very difficult. That doesn't sound that difficult. No, it's just, it's a little time consuming. And especially if you only wanna make a couple changes, it would not be, I don't think that grave. Okay. Okay. And Vince had the chance that there's a couple other towns out there that we could use as a benchmark for what we're looking for, similar sized towns. Well, then I think that the obvious thing to do would be to have that information brought to the board. I mean, that we can discuss it and it sounds good. It sounds like it did before, where there's obviously we could use maybe some of the revenue that that generated for our roads, our infrastructure, our equipment help take the burden off some of the taxpayers since our community does swell so much during the day. But really at this point in time, I don't know how in depth of a discussion we could get, maybe flow, was there something you were anticipating coming out of this flow for dialogue or what are you thinking? Not exactly at this juncture. I just wanted to have that preliminary discussion tonight and determine regarding the charter change, et cetera. And I appreciate that information, Diane and Tom. I think we could definitely put it on a future agenda. Other folks would be with us such as Brad, et cetera. And I'm excited to go forward with it for sure. Okay. Diane, who made up that committee the last time? Do you recall? I do. Rosemary was on the committee and there was Jeremy to our Nelson. And I can't remember if there's one other person, I believe. So the committee was not that big. And we made a lot of changes. I think that if you're only looking to make a few changes, I don't think it would be that difficult. Now, obviously, whatever changes we want to make, the legislature has to approve. But I think that we have enough people that are knowledgeable that could help us. Is our current charter, would we have to put it to a town-wide vote? Last one we did, yes. I would assume that we do. Yeah. Yes, Lee. So that's still fair away. I mean, we're gonna, would start working on it now. It would be next year before we would be looking at it anyway, most likely. So. Absolutely. Okay. Well, we could do it in November, right? November, yep. I think there's a general election this November. Okay. 12th of November. Yeah, we did. We did a big charter change in Northfield. We merged the town and the village in probably 2000. And that went through the whole process. One of the things the legislature really looks for is, you know, how the town overall feels about it. So if it's a really close vote, the legislature's gonna have a lot more questions than if it's, you know, a lopsided vote. As they consider it, but it's an interesting process. And I, you know, I wouldn't discourage the board from going through. I don't think it's that difficult as the others have said. Okay. Excellent. Any other local options, tax discussion? All right. We have liquor licenses once again on the agenda with a sub note says none at this time. Is there any liquor licenses? Okay. All right. So public discussion with a down street. I see Nicola Anderson's on here from Down Street. Here. Welcome, Nicola. Thanks. We also have Julie Curtin and from Down Street and Matt Moore from Ever North. Good evening. Hi everyone. Thanks for having us on the agenda tonight. I'll go ahead and kick us off. As Nicola said, I'm Julie Curtin and the interim CEO with Down Street. And we're here tonight to talk about the application for funding from the state of Vermont through the Vermont Community Development Program, which is a program of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development that makes grants of federal community development block grant funds, CDBG funds. So we're seeking your support specifically for the Fox Run project, which I don't feel I need to go into a great level of detail on. I know you're familiar with the project, although we're all happy to answer any questions that you have. So just a brief reminder, this is a proposed 30 unit affordable, permanently affordable apartment building that would be located in the proposed new town center across from the two-stitch senior building that is currently under construction. Specifically, we're seeking a grant of $500,000 toward the development and construction of the project. This would be one of multiple sources for the project. And we're seeking an additional grant of 500,000 to go toward the road improvements for the Berlin Mall Road. The CDBG funds would be awarded as a grant to the town and the town would sub-grant the award likely to Down Street. And Down Street would then contribute the funds to the project either as a loan or a capital contribution. I believe that we have provided a resolution for your consideration that would go to the state as part of our application. I understand and Vince set that out to the select board. Yeah, I believe we received it at 640. We just barely got it. So I was just opening it up for review. I personally don't have any experience with that type of grant, John, Flo, Dave, do you? Yeah, I've done quite a few of them or been a part of a board that's done quite a few of them. Pretty low risk overall. I guess my question would be is as the administrator of the grant, Diane, are you the staff member respond? Oh, no, here it is. I think, sorry about that. Vince would be responsible for making sure we're following all the grant rules and that would be my only concern is to make sure that as the administrator of that or as the grantor of that, we would just be providing the right amount of oversight. I also had a chance to review it and I'd be willing to make the resolution if folks want to go forward with that. What level of oversight is required for that? Does anybody? Nicola, could you speak to that? Yeah, so it'll be sub-granted to us. You know, through, well, so 500 will be sub-granted to us. And then with this funding, there is conditions that come with that, more of it mostly that's gonna be audited in your part as a financial part and keeping track of those records. You know, we will be managing all the in and out details of that grant as well, but the financial part goes through the town. And I believe the town's participated in CDBG funding in the past, Diane, you may be able to talk to about what's on your end of it. Yeah, I'm more than happy to work with that. I work with all the grants in that in that way as far as the financial part of it. And I do keep track of everything. I have everything documented. We are gonna be doing a single audit again this year and I've been through three others. So yeah, I really do know it's involved I've actually been audited, I think three different times without any issue. Right, I guess from what I was meeting by oversight is usually we disperse the funds after the sub-grantee expense, that money and we look at the receipts, right? And I grant them a check at that point. We don't give it to them upfront. Correct. Right, or how does that work? That's correct. That's correct. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get to in a very bad way or not very articulate way. No, that was very clear. Okay. I just have one question, Julie or Nicola, whomever I guess. When you talk about affordable housing, I hear the term a lot, but what does that mean to you? Is there a specific definition on like eligibility requirements? Is it section eight is what is affordable housing when you talk about it in football? Sure, I can address that it is and essentially it means that it's housing for income eligible people in the case of this project, households between who are 50% area median income up to I think one unit can go up to 120% but most of them are around 60% or 50% of area median income. So they do have to demonstrate income eligibility in order to be able to apply for and be eligible for a unit. And then rents are affordable to people at those income levels. We have covenants that come with the funding that require us to maintain that affordability over an extended period of time, multiple decades. We do have several units in the project that will have vouchers. So that is for people who are even lower income who couldn't so say 30% of area median income but the voucher helps supplement that what they pay up to 30% of their income toward the rent and then the voucher which is like a section eight type program would then supplement the rest of it. So we have we're planning on eight of the units having that additional subsidy to help with rent. Julie, we heard, we appreciate that. Julie, we heard here the term kicked around quite often workforce housing. Maybe you could talk about what that meaning is as well. I'm a little less familiar with workforce housing. I can take a sort of, I can share my understanding my colleagues might have a different nuance to add to it but my understanding tends to be more of that 80 to 120% area median income range. So people it's just they're earning income but it's not enough to be competitive to have a sufficient income to make the market friends affordable. So it's just a sort of a higher income but still a challenge to afford market rate housing band of people. Right, but this development's not workforce housing. This is 60 to 80%, right? This is more of the, I had talked to, oh, is it Josh Slade at VHFA a while back on one of my projects and this is just the 9% caps that's that project. And you're gonna be at 60 to 80% of the median. This isn't just the straight workforce, right? It is a mix. Matt, what would you add specifically to this project? Yeah, I would say it's gonna be a mixed income property. And as Julie said, we'll be targeting most of the units to 60%. We have six units right now that would be 80% of area median income. What is the median income? The area median income. I believe Berlin's around 60K. Well, it's different, I think with this. So I've got some numbers here. Family of four, so household of four at 50% income. And this is 2019, so this is dated, was 39,350. Right, so a lot of these are one units, right? One bedrooms. We have one bedroom, two bedrooms, and a three bedroom unit. Right, I'm just curious just because I can't recall. How many are one bedrooms and how many are two bedrooms? We have 13 are one bedroom, 16 are two bedroom, and one is three bedroom. Okay. Any, I was just curious. Go ahead, David. I'm just looking at these numbers. I'm just wondering, they said that eight of the units would be at a 30% median income. What type of units are those? Are those the one bedrooms? Are they the three bedrooms? What, two bedrooms? It's a mix where we can't put all of the lowest income people into the smallest units, for example, or vice versa. So we need to have a representative sampling, so to speak, of the units that were folks with the section eight vouchers will live. The 60% units where, you know, working people that don't make enough to pay a market rent live, and then the 80%, so it's a mix. Do you, and what about, do you have a, like a one person median income? I'm just curious about that for your, either you can give me either the 50 or the 60%, I'll do the math from there. Sure. Yeah, again, I've got, my numbers are a little dated here. So here's some examples. So 50% median income, one person household is 27,000 a year. 27,550, again, this is from one to two years ago. Two person household, 31,503 person, 35,400. So single mom, two kids. Right. 35,000, she would qualify for a tax credit unit. And if she's below 50%, she would qualify for section eight. Gotcha. Okay. Any other questions on this grant resolution? Anybody care to make a motion on it? I'll go ahead and make a motion and thank you, Julie, Nikola and Matt. Basically, I'll move to accept the resolution for the Vermont community development program resolution, grant application and naming Vince Conti as our town administrator, as the contact person and everything as presented this evening. Thank you. Second that. John, second set. Any additional discussion? I don't want to interrupt the proceedings exactly, but there's something that I do want to make sure you folks know before you make the final vote about the road and how we're splitting, proposing to split the funding out. Yeah. Yeah. And basically in order to be eligible to use the VCDP funding for public infrastructure or I think it's municipal infrastructures, what they say, the road will need to be owned by the town in the end. So that has not been executed. Right. And so I want to make sure that we're aware that that's a process that the town's going to need to go through in order to be eligible to bring this money in. So I don't want it to seem like we're end running this thing, but I just want to say that that process is going to have to play out in the next year or so if we get funded. Right. And I know we've had discussion about the road being brought up to the standards before we even consider taking it over. And I know that we've had discussions that the board will make that decision at the time. I mean, if we got to have the board, the road definitely needs a lot of work at a very huge expense. So in order for us to do that, to maintain or take over that road, there's a lot of things. And one of the first thing is it needs to be brought up to the standards that we've discussed in the past. So we're fully aware of that. And our understanding is that that road standard in the new town center, those things are still not 100% set, right? And they're still going to be worked out in the coming months. So we recognize that. But the timing of this application, we want to get this in because there's federal money coming in. And I think the maximum we can apply for is 500,000. And the way we're looking at this is we're, we've got a meeting, actually we're setting up a meeting tomorrow with Vince and Tom and the guys from the mall. And we're going to start talking details, you know, about the road and the way that we're details as in the design and who's going to pay for it and when's it going to get built and et cetera. And what we're hoping folks will agree to is to see this grant award that it's going to go to the town and then go to the road, maybe not all of ours, but at least see this as kind of our contribution to the road because we can't, we can't pay for the road with housing money. That's why we need to split it out into 500 and 500. But this is kind of what we're hoping to come to the table with so to speak. We're going to do, we're doing this application, we're going to chop most of the wood and carry most of the water on it. And there's going to be more money that'll need to be raised for it and so forth. But I just wanted to get that out there and say here, so you guys have heard it and you understand kind of where we're coming from. I think there's some other sources that the town can look at, you know, for funding. Don't know how much the road costs yet. I also want to say that. Right. Yeah, ideally we would have a design and a cost estimate and then we would put the application in. But us in the mall have been kind of dancing back and forth on this thing for a while now and things have, you know, come to a head in a good way. But we're just not there yet. So I just want to let folks know that, that we're trying to get on this train so we, so the town can have access and we can have access as money to make this project happen but we don't know everything yet. So. I think from my view, we can go ahead and apply for it and if something happens to the project, you know, if we don't get the downtown center as long as we don't expend any of the money where we could pay it back, then we don't necessarily have to take over that road. Right. Correct. And my expectation is that we're going to get, enter some kind of agreement with the town and the mall about all these details and no work is going to start until everything is settled. So, you know, the prospect of somehow this road being half-built, but all the sources not there, that's not how we're going to do it. So. Thank you. Thank you. All right. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Thank you all. Thanks. Thank you. All right. Next up we have a select board liaison discussion. So what are we looking for? We need liaison to the police department. Do we have a list someplace? Public's work, planning, police, fire, and I don't know if there's one for conservation commission or not. And highway, right? And yes, the highway. Thank you. Right. Did we have one for the wreck? You know, I feel like we appointed somebody to most of these last year and we did a terrible job. Myself included as, you know, road, you know, highway liaison, keeping the board up to date, getting information out to the board. I think John, you probably worked pretty hard as liaison with the police department. I think you did a great job there. I think everyone did okay. It was a rough year. We went the majority of it with, you know, Tom working two jobs without us having anyone dedicated in the role, going through COVID or three jobs, yeah. So, you know, I don't think it was, you know, a lack of willingness on anyone's part. I think it was just one of those years. Well, it was a rough one. Hopefully we can do better and put some systems in place so we can all stay more congealed. Did anybody, I've spoken to David a little bit and I think Dave, you were interested in the fire department, correct? Well, I'd be willing to. I mean, I've got some background in that area. So, yeah, I'd be willing to. Was anybody else interested in the fire department? All right. Who, I mean, have we, was any, actually, why don't we just start? John, what were you interested in doing? I was interested in doing the highway. I know you were doing that, Justin, but I didn't know if you wanted to continue. I think trying to chair the board is going to take a lot more time than I thought because I want to put some other systems in place. So, I'd like to try to step back for many of those positions this year. So, highway. Flo, did you have any in mind for yourself? Great interest in several last year, but I did participate in the public works and I would continue with that this year. And that would free up other committees for other people that are extremely interested. So, what do we got? Public works, flow, fire, highway. We're looking for police and conservation. Correct. Anybody interested in the police? I mean, chief's right on here. You'd be happy to hear it, I'm sure. You know, I could do as well, depending on what the timeframe is, I could as well. Feel like the last kid's next year. Well, I think, I think, Dave- Chief wants me to carry a gun, so I'll keep, I'll continue if you'd like. The, it's going to be a contract year, so there might be some more involvement as liaison. John, you did it last year, but Dave's got some interest in doing that. I know the fire department has a lot going on this coming year as well. They're doing some studies and things like that. I don't know, John, do you want Dave to try to tackle both of them, or would you prefer to try to stay on with the police? What do you think's best for you? I'll stay on with the police. I know the fire department's going to be a busy one, so I don't mind doing that. That'll be fine. Okay. So all we've got left is the planning commission and the conservation. And those are relatively easy. I wouldn't be opposed to doing helping with those. They're not going to be as labor-intensive, so. Remember Brad's still available, right? So. He's available, but just not in attendance and hasn't expressed any specific interest. So we could probably hold those two positions off for right now, if we had to. I would just assign Brad to one and you take the other. That's a pretty good idea. We could do that. And John, I'll keep in contact with you in terms of the police and the board as well, but I'm on a task force that was created through Trevor Whipple and it's on a quarterly basis at this point in time. So I'll also keep you folks updated on how that progresses. Oh, great. Thank you, Flo. Thanks. Appreciate that flow. Thank you. So I would have John for the police, Flo for public works, planning commission, Brad, Fire Dave, Highway John, Conservation Justin. Is that, I feel like we're missing something, but we can't be because we're all going to be doubled up if we are. Does anybody want to make a motion? So moved on the positions that were just outlined by the chair. Excellent. We got a second from David. Excellent. Any further discussion? All right. All those in favor? All right. Motion carries. Excellent. That's easy. Fisher Road covered update. Oh, we had our first meeting today with V-Trans. They have not worked. This group has not worked with the state infrastructure bank in the past, so it's some new ground for them, but my sense is that they're going to take a light approach to this project versus their regular formal contracts and we've exchanged some documents today. So I believe we'll have something for the board next week with respect to draft bid documents. We are still working on an easement from Legiu Inc. And we had a really no further update from them. They're giving consideration to the easement language that we have drawn up, but we have not got a definitive decision from them on that. Okay. So how do you feel like it's going? Is it? The easement has me a little concerns. Yeah. Zad, you gotcha? So, any other updates? No. Well, Ben's just made a, let's see here. Proof of license permits, vouchers and applications. Is this the payroll warrants as well? Yes, it's payroll warrants. Oh, yeah. I'll make a motion to approve payroll warrant 21-19 for payroll from February 28th, 2021 to March 13th, 2021 paid on March 17th, 2021 in the amount of $44,673.17 Payroll warrant 2021, or excuse me, 21-20 or payroll from March 14th, 2021 to March 27th, 2021 paid on March 31st, 2021 in the amount of $44,635.93 Payable warrant 21-G20 with checks 21-013 to 21-058 in the amount of $144,305.48 and February 2021 general journal entries. I second that motion. Thank you, John. Yep. Any additional discussion? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Next up on the agenda, we have minutes. We'll break it up. We'll do approval of minutes from March 1st, 2021. I make the motion to approve the minutes from March 1st, 2021. I'll second. Any further discussion? Yeah, I noticed it's relatively minor, but in the March 1st minutes, it references a motion that I made and it says in there, let me pull it up real quick, actually, so I can be completely accurate with it. Oh, right here. So in there, it says that Lawrence moved as follows to approve vast use in the Maryland town forests, blah, blah, motion parallel. And it says the direction of writing the plan as required for use still stands. That should say the motion, the direction of writing the plan if required, still stand. So that should be changed in there. And that's the only change I saw. So any other discussion? I don't know if we can get a change of motion. We make a motion to accept the minutes with the changes as stated. Well, we have a vote kind of on the floor, so we'll have to go back. Either have flow amend that or take a vote, but I can take a vote if we want, or a flow can amend it. I make the amendment to the motion to include the information you just presented and so moved. Second. Anybody? Second. Yep, I second. Any additional discussion? All right. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All right. Motion carries. And now we're on to the approval of the March 22nd minutes. Think the motion will be the March 22nd? Well, second that. All right. Any discussion? All right. All those in favor of approving the March 22nd minutes? Say aye. Aye. Motion carries. Excellent. All right. Now we've got Vast, I, Rochelle, Trail. They send parentheses. We've got update from Conservation Commission. It looks like we have a couple. We've got Josh Walker's on here as the Vast representative. Josh, is there any update on the Culvert information? Oh, and Phil's on as well. Yeah, I'm on as well. Anybody else from the Conservation Commission? Tom's on as well. So we've got, okay, Phil and Tom. Yeah. Now, did everyone receive my attachments on Friday? Well, we'll get into that in a minute. I want to see, Josh, where's the update on, what's your update on the Culvert status for the information there? Well, I don't have any update on that. You mean a bridge at the bottom of Darling Road? Yeah. I guess I just need to know if we could go forward with ordering the materials. And I'm going to have to submit an updated material cost because when I did this cost was last year, thinking we may have been able to get it in in the fall of last year, but that didn't happen. So the materials are going to be a different cost. So can I get together new costs that the town would approve, hopefully for the materials for that bridge? Josh, if I remember correctly, I think you estimated about 2,500, was that right? Well, it was 2,700 without the gate, without the gate we were going to put up. So I think when we were speaking about it, we just added in the extra 300, thinking the 300 would cover the gate. Okay, yeah. That's where I'm at. And I can get hard numbers for you guys. I'll get estimates right from the suppliers and I could submit them right to the select board or through the conservation board or however what steps I have to take. I think if you could bring it to the board at the next meeting, that would be great. I'll get that stuff together. See what happened with the price. Okay. I know a lot of the prices have gone through the roof as I've seen with building projects. No, that's an afraid one. That's been the concern. So I wanted an update and see if we had the new pricing at this point. Yeah. And then I guess again, and I guess another thing about that, would we be approved to go forward with that bridge after the May 15th opening of the mountain, opening of the Darling Road for wheeled vehicles? Well, I believe the board approved the use of vast trails in the Berlin town forest. And it would be my understanding that you would absolutely be able to. I don't know how the rest of the board feels on that, but if anybody else wants to chime in for consensus, we'd be happy to do so. Yeah. From my perspective, we approved it. My follow-up was going to be, when are you going to start, Josh? I know now you have to get the new material costs, but what was the thinking around start date for that? Part of getting in on this meeting right now is getting the people that would be involved and finding out when they would be available to do it. Once the summer starts, it gets very busy. So I'd like to kind of be ahead of the curve here. So if I can get people with excavators and the material shipment and all that stuff kind of in the works now, it would help then waiting until June and trying to figure it out then. Yeah. I've noticed the trails are already getting some heavy use, but yeah, before mid-summer gets here, it would be nice to have that bridge in place and that way as the traffic really picks up, we have an emergency services bridge to get over as well as preparing for the vast season. Well, and plus we still have the walkthrough with the conservation board. And if the bridge was, it doesn't have to be done by then, and hopefully we'll be able to get that walkthrough taken care of, then everything's going to be a go after the 15th. Great. I know reading some of the notes, there's been a lot of discussion on speed limits, hours, things like that. I think as far as some of those things go, those are really select board type of decisions, right? As far as hours and speed limits, and I absolutely think we should have our sensitivity, trail sensitivity trails and limit that stuff, but I really think that a lot of those decisions are board decisions. And I think the board at some point in the future still needs to talk about the road, because right now, I think it's been expressed by many people on the road that parking's been an issue. Well, parking's an issue right now. And I see it when I come home, some days I'm looking for cars on both sides. So I think the board has to think about no parking signs along there. I certainly don't want to say, well, everyone can park there except for snow machines if they have trailers. I mean, cars except for if they have trailers. So I just want the board to have a discussion at some point in the springtime or early summer that lays out how are we gonna deal with the road stuff? I can pretty much guarantee there wouldn't be any snowmobile trailers parking along the road or in the parking lot there. There's just not enough room and space for it. Yeah, no, no, I agree. I just think from a town policy perspective, we should be consistent in the way we address cars parking on the road. I think, John, I think you bring up a good point. And I feel as though we should, we probably should have already addressed the parking concerns and the congestion around Berlin Pond in that regard. So I know Vince, you can hear us. So if we could put that on the agenda for the next meeting, I think that would be great. And that would alleviate some of the parking concerns for the vast use, but it would also, oh, look at that, he messaged me already. It's on the next meeting. That would eliminate some of the parking concerns for the snowmobile use, not only, but also for other people that utilize the road. So I mean, I don't know, who's to say somebody on a mountain bike that has a small car wouldn't trail her up there and park on the side of the road or something like that. So I mean, it's really, I do agree that we need to be consistent with that. And I appreciate you bringing that to the board's attention, John. Yeah. Any other, have you had a steering committee meeting yet, Josh? No, that is still to come. As far as I know, last time known, it was just postponed. And I haven't had any follow-up. I did send out a note, Josh. Yeah. Okay, I may not have received it. You sent out a note, Phil? Yeah, I sent out a note. We postponed the meeting. Yeah, no, I knew it was postponed, but I didn't have like an update. I stated that because of the task at hand, the steering committee has been postponed, but we have public comment on both our meetings in April that people, if they'd like to make comments, they're welcome to join both our meetings in April on the 7th and 21st. We felt as though the steering committee, we have the first and foremost, the vast issue in front of us. And we have a lot of information that we can use now, especially after meeting with Vast. So we're really on a recommendation to the select board by June 1st. And what is your recommendation? I mean, what recommendation are you working on? I did ask that the correspondence between the steering committee, just in an effort to be transparent, that we get carbon copied on all of it, or we're included in it. And I can't tell specifically who's sending that could because it just says conservation commission. So is that a shared email or is that sent specifically by one individual? Who's the chair of the conservation commission at this point? That's me. That's what I thought. I just stopped using my personal email because after talking with Vince and talking about protocols, I said, okay, we're gonna send things through our other Gmail account and all the protocols on posting meetings. But anyway, to get back to the subject, the steering committee. Well, I want to get back to, you were looking to make a recommendation. Oh, right. What is the, what recommendation are you working on? I'm curious. We are, we're still charged after February 1st. We feel as though we need to come to the board by June 1st with a recommendation on all the information we're gathering on the vast application proposal. And that includes all the information we gather with our meeting with vast and after our walkthrough. And we just, that's what we were charged with and that's what we're continuing to do. On a parallel course, we're also working on the update of a management plan. But we felt first and foremost, vast needs the attention. And so it's a hot button issue and we're moving forward with that. So I'll speak on behalf of my opinion in this and I can't speak for the entire board but everybody's welcome to join in if they do. I feel as though the conservation commission was charged with navigating the route and that the hurdle that we were facing at the time was potentially a new management plan. However, the new management plan doesn't need to be done to work with vast. And I thought the direction of the board was rather clear that we wanted you to help navigate with vast the best route through the town forest. Now I may be wrong, but I made the motion and that was my intention with the motion. It was to work parallel with you guys. And it was if a management plan needed to be done we would still work with that. But I, it wasn't a recommendation on whether or not to allow vast. I just want to be clear. It was a, it should be a recommendation on maybe the best route if you haven't already gotten to a route. It wasn't whether or not vast should be utilizing that the town forest because the select board approved it. Does anybody else on the board have any input? I feel the same way and everything I've read and research and stuff there isn't that that was the direction I understood it to go is that it was to plot the trail. And if there was any special signage or speed limits through that through the town forest in certain areas where there's walkers and stuff it wasn't to make a recommendation to allow it to go forward because that was already covered in your motion to do the board, but it's select board. Well, then I guess I would have to say that there's a misunderstanding. It doesn't mean we have to have any sort of adversarial relationship here with the select board. No, no, that's why I just wanted to be clear. But what it means is we're on a fact finding mission and there's some issues that came up and it has to do with mitigating some concerns over steepness of trail, runouts, blind spots, sensitivity to certain issues that present itself in the topography and geology of the mountain. We're stewards of the mountain. We're just trying to make sure we're crossing all the T's. The other thing I guess I'd submit understanding is when the select board voted to allow for a vast trail through the town forest, I assumed that you were alluding to the specifics of the town forest from the tower over to the sample land through the town forest. I said, bro. Yeah, well. That's the town forest as we know it. The lands that do frame and loss in lots which hold easements with the Vermont Land Trust, we were seeing that as not the town forest. Hmm. See what I'm saying, Justin? I think I was, I understand that that's what you might have understood it to be, but that's not what the intention of the motion was. The, as far as the town forest or the Dufresne and the loss in lot, those are passed through on the Darling Road Trail. Am I correct? Correct. Right. So the Darling Road Trail would be under the, wouldn't be covered under the conservation or the conserved land because it's a town trail and there's still the town right of way through it. Certainly on Darling up and over for sure. Right. So the town forest wouldn't be part of the easements in the conservation land. I didn't understand the ridgeline to be that though, the ridgeline trail. Look, I can chime in on that. The reason that the trail that extended from the tower is because that the ridgeline trail in the past has already been approved for snowmobiles. And then, you know, for years it's been approved for snowmobiles. Then we go and try to re-establish the trail and all of a sudden it's not approved. That's where the trail got extended past the tower because it was already approved up Darling Road and out ridgeline trail. And then now we go and want to go through with this and now it's not approved. So that's where we get to the tower and continuing through the town forest. Yeah, that's a separate parcel of what I'm saying. The town forest itself stood alone years before the town was granted or the land was purchased for Dufresne and Lawson in the 90s, late 90s. The town forest stood as the town forest before that. So there's a distinct difference between the two parcels or the three parcels. So that's when Justin made the motion a few weeks back saying town forest, we understood it to be the, I don't know how many, Tom Willard's joining us, but he might be able to specifically, but I thought we were referencing from the tower south. I did reference all of the Berlin town forest, the town forest. So it was all of the, what would be considered the town forest. And I do believe that everybody would, everybody on the select board would have referenced that as the town forest as well. I feel, John, go ahead. John, you're, go ahead. I don't, there's no distinction between me, between one lot and another if the town, if the town owns it, if it's an asset of the town. But, I think we are just a little bit confused and trying to get on the same page. I pulled the minutes to the February 1st meeting and it was to direct the conservation committee to work with vast mitigate concerns with a proposed management plan by June 1st. And at that point, we would take public comment on that management plan. It wasn't a, it wasn't a recommendation. Just, and that's just from the, what I'm reading in the minutes, Phil, because, you know, we've talked about it in so many ways. I just want to make sure, you know, I went back and looked at it to make sure we were getting the same language. And if you referenced the minutes we sent out with our meeting with Vast, I think you acknowledged you got them, John. I don't know if the other select board members got those minutes at the Vast meeting, but if you look at those minutes. If you look at those minutes. I see them also. Did you see them, Flo? Yes, I did. So if you reference those minutes, you'll see, I don't know if it's five, six, seven pages long, we discussed a lot of those issues. And we, I think we did a really good job mitigating and getting answers to questions. You know, Dave and Mark were very forthcoming and very open to working with us. And, you know, we've already scheduled the walkthrough and the way the weather is shaping up right now, if we get another nine days of dry winds and no rain, that walkthrough probably can take place way before May 15th. We're thinking we can get up there maybe late April if this continues. So that's another concern that, you know, they agreed with us that we need to all walk through not only what that is being flagged through what I call the town forest on the south side of the tower, but the ridgeline trail itself, how that stands up and any concerns anyone has concerning the steepness, the pitch, the turns, all those things. So that's still in the, I mean, that's still in the works and we've all agreed we've come up with a plan and any concerns that we had as a conservation commission that were left open as noted in those minutes are being addressed by people looking into whether it's Mark, Dave, Wendy, whoever, we're all looking into those and we should have a real clear understanding of where we are in the next, you know, certainly before June 1st, we'll have that if you propose a public hearing, we'll have all the information and questions answered by, you know, any townspeople, budding land owners, anyone, we should have everything pretty clear at that point. Yep, and I don't think I wrote back when you sent those, Phil, but thank you. I think you guys did address a lot of issues there and, you know, it sounded like you guys were getting the clarity you needed to understand, you know, vast in the trail system and how it could work in the town forest. So I certainly do appreciate that and look forward to reading more minutes from conversations that you guys have. Yeah, and it's very well done. I appreciate it also very much so. And I think our focus right now is when we, when we are, well, I guess our aim was to have a steering committee with representation across the board to help guide us. Not, I mean, in particular, the vast proposal is pretty much moved forward, but we're hoping to get some input on future requests when someone else wants to use town lands or applies for, you know, we want to have just a real clear focus. So the steering committee is just a bunch of, you know, concerned locals, residents, citizens that are going to give us more feedback on we're doing the right thing. We're not doing, I have you address this when it comes to someone who wants to hunt there, have you addressed it to her mountain bike or is it going to be addressed to dog walker? That was the intent of, and I still think we intend to have a committee to help us along. I think the one thing I would speak on behalf of the conservation commission, one thing, and I talked to Vince about this last week, and I think we talked at the last meeting that, you know, we could use as a conservation commission a little admin or clerical support when it comes to, you know, the amount of work we're putting in minutes and all these things. So I don't know, we've talked about it. I don't know if there's anything in the budget, but we've, you know, we're meeting twice a month instead of six times a year, we're meeting practically 24 times a year. So we could use some supports to keep our ducks in a row. Now, you know, I've worked really closely with Vince the last two weeks to get a lot of these things in order. So he's been really helpful on templates for posting meetings and, you know, little things like that that can help out. But in the future, or, you know, if you can see your way through it, the board would appreciate any sort of, even if it's just two or four hours a week, might help us through the next few months in an organizational standpoint. I think that's, I think that's fair. And it's something that the board should talk about at the next meeting, maybe Vince or Vince and Tom or Vince or however you guys want to do it, come up with a few recommendations for the select board to consider as far as, you know, getting the conservation committee some admin help, if needed. Let me ask this really quickly. I mean, we had had the discussion about hiring somebody to assist in writing the management plan. If we were to do that, would that eliminate some of this other and allow it to be more manageable on the conservation commission's end? I don't believe at this point we need someone with that type of expertise to come in and help us write it. Tom Willer has taken the lead on the rewrite of the management plan as Wendy has taken the lead on kind of information gathering with VAST. I think we're, I think we're fine. I think we're feeling we can have a draft proposal. No problem by June 1st, the rewrite on the management plan. I think where we might need help once again is maybe some organizational things around the rewrite, whether it's editing or who knows what. But I mean, from that standpoint of view, I don't think we need any expertise to get any deeper in the weeds with, I think it's pretty straightforward where we wanna go with the draft management plan. Of course, you'll review it and you'll see it and you'll get it in your hands and you'll edit or do whatever the board decides to do. But I think it'll be a document that will be able to move forward. It'll be updated and allow for amendments in the future easy to adjust or amend as opposed to having to go back and rewrite the whole plan. So I think we're on target. Tom's listening in, I know he hasn't spoken up, but he's our archive and our resource when it comes to the history and his background professionally is very well suited to help us rewrite this. So I feel confident that we'll have a rewrite by June 1st. And I think we're also gonna have all the information we need to put at rest concerns considering vast. I think we have probably 75, 80% of the answers already just in that one three-hour meeting. So I'm feeling pretty excellent on both fronts. I appreciate all the hard work you guys are doing. I know the board does as well. And I'm sure you guys are more than capable of writing the management plan. I just didn't know if that might be a good alternative for easing some of that burden. So thank you. If I could ask if we have enough time, just a couple of thoughts. One is by June 1st, yes, I will have a draft of the management plan done. It's not gonna be a Cadillac. It's gonna be the minimum. The management plan has certain, the easement requires certain minimum things to be in before VLT will approve it and before any vast trail can be constructed. So those minimums, if anybody has read, well, you can go through the easement, but the select board is on the hook. It's a legal document that the select board has to comply with. There are certain minimums that are required in that easement in order to write the management plan. I plan to make sure everything's in there so that when we pass, well, or when the select board passes that management plan onto VLT, it satisfies everything that they need to allow the uses, including mountain biking, the uses that the conservation commission is working on. So the only other thing I would add, and Josh, I know it keeps coming up, Josh, every time if there are three lots, a loss in the dew frame, the trail, the ridgeline trail, not the Darling Road, but the ridgeline trail goes through the dew frame lot and goes through the ridgeline lot, both those lots. Both those lots are covered by an easement and we'll address the trail through both of those lots. Historically, there was no town, no public land through there. Up the Darling Road, there was the right of way, but the dew frame lot was privately held and the ridgeline lot was privately held. The dew frame lot we purchased in, I think 2008, sometime around there, the ridgeline lot sometime around 1999 or 2000. And that made the connection of public lands across there. And I personally purchased the land on behalf of the Vermont River Conservancy and rode in the conditions into the easement as well as into the management plan. So I do know a little bit about what's required here. So I think as long as we proceed, and I plan on taking my dog up there, walk it the next day or two and just see what the snow cover and the conditions are because I know the walkthrough, I know Vass suggested that they may get a couple ATVs and stuff, we don't wanna go up there until it's suitable for that. And I'm not sure everybody wants to walk up there. If we wanna just walk up there, we can go much earlier than the ATVs, but anyway, just a few comments, but we will have, I'll have a draft, well, we'll have to be a draft of both the report to the report to the select board explaining things and also the management plan done well, actually significantly before June 1st because we're gonna have to have a conservation commission meeting in a vote or a consensus that everybody's an individual. Some people may have a different opinion than I do in writing the plan and it may have to, conservation commission may wanna work on that a bit before it gets to the select board. So hopefully I can get that done in the next month. Maybe missing, maybe the walkthrough data that some people are concerned about and I think definitely needs to be done as well, but so I don't know if that helps the select board. Thank you, Tom. We can move up the walkthrough, Tom. I know that I would be available and I can check with some other folks and see if we can move that through and at least get a section of it done and walk through maybe as far as we wanna feel comfortable going. Yeah, why don't we, yeah, we'll we have a meeting on Wednesday, the conservation commission and we'll discuss that then and then whatever we decide in an earlier date we'll reach out to you and David and Mark and everybody that was at the vast meeting and copy everybody on that. Okay, that sounds great. Excellent, thank you. Any other updates? Concerning vast, you mean? Well, Irish Hill Trail, yeah. I don't think so other than, you know, I mean, the exciting part about all this in a way is that we're seeing greater usage and maybe it's COVID related, maybe it's not who knows. I mean, maybe it's just a sign of the times but the good news is that it's a good time to address all this because the usage is up and we wanna encourage everybody to get outdoors and I think we are on the same page with that. We all love Vermont because we're here for that reason to get outdoors and explore. So I think going forward, if we tighten up these things, it'll be a little clearer to residents, select board, the commission, what the protocols are or what the rules are, so to speak. I gotta tell you, I love that this has been such a hot button item because I think it's actually gonna make the conservation commission stronger and work better with the select board. So I appreciate everything you guys have done. I really do. And I know it's not easy. John, you got something, you got your hand up? Go ahead. Yeah, I do have a question for Phillip and Tom. Primarily around the use this time of season, you know, I have no issue with it and I don't mean that in a negative conservation it's kind of way, but I see a lot of trails being closed down this time of year because of the mud, right? And what it does to a trail system. So I'm just wondering if the conservation committee has a stance on that or if we just kind of let people self-police it or how that works exactly. Well, I think because we are seeing greater usage, we probably will want to address that. Basically when it comes to the long trail, and those trails that I know of, they usually are recommending at certain elevations and we only hit 2000 and 20 feet up there. And that may fall into the 1500 and above usage when it's muddy and et cetera. But the trail's never been used as great as the long trail or the, you know, the Appalachian trail. So I mean, we could look at that. That's a good point. I think we should have probably addressed it with more usage. But on the lower part of Darling, it's just an old class, you know, whatever class four, old class three, class four road. And that, you know, I think it's never the usage there. I've never seen it a problem, but I haven't been up there in the last few weeks. Luckily it's not mud season, but I think that's a good point, John, that in a muddy, wet April, we should probably think about, you know, we first of all, we have to update that one sign about ATVs, but, you know, we're talking about signage for VAST, we need as a conservation commission to get a lot more signage for the other nine months of the year, what we're doing there and what we're allowing and not allowing. So we'll be working on that. But I think that's a good point about, you know, this time of year, should we be addressing mud season? And I, we will, I think that's a good point. I would, I was just, go ahead, Tom. Well, I think that's a very good point. The conservation commission, historically, did close the mountain to mountain bikes, biking and ATVs to, I think it's October 1st through May 15th. I think that's on the signage. November 1st to May 15th. Oh, November 1st, yes. And in terms of the hiking, that mountain and those trails up there, it's very surprising. It's a very well-drained, there's not a lot of problem areas on the trails up there, which is pretty unique. There's a lot of special stuff like vernal pools and stuff, but the trails themselves, at least in my judgment, there really has not been a lot of major problems with the mud season hiking. A lot of it's all rock and bed, bedrock here, what hiking on. You know, I was just curious, I saw a sign recently for, you know, on Twitter, or something, you know, saying, stay after mud season. I didn't know if we had an official stance. The other thing I was wondering in that same vein was whether or not, you know, the town wants to put some kind of signboard. I know you kind of have a pre-existing sign, but something with a face on it where you could say, you know, where the fire warden can say, you know, please no fires in the town forest. That's probably a rule anyways on that board, but where you can update conditions and things like that. It was just an idea I had as I was thinking about it the other day, but that's all for me. Yeah, so I got one, I have one more thing, is can you guys hear me? Yeah, go ahead, Josh. Okay, it was just about the bridge, and I would think that the bridge should be addressed sooner than later, especially since there's more activity going on up there now. I would think that the conservation board in the town would wanna see that bridge fixed because it's like definitely a hazard at this point. Right, so I'll make sure within the two weeks I'll have a new material cost for that, and we'll decide then whether just we're going forward and the trail's gonna go forward. Thanks, yep. Thank you. Anything else? All right, I think we're good. What's that? Nothing? All right, round table. David, you got anything? Nope. Flo? Not tonight, thank you. John? It did, and of course it escapes my mind at this moment, so no, I guess not. And I don't have anything at this moment, but I do believe we are anticipating an executive session. Right, yeah. I did just think of one thing if it's not too late to interject. Go ahead, Flo. I had a person bring forward to me about the potholes leading to Walmart, that they're getting really deep, and I didn't know if that's something that can be addressed or something can be done there. You mean on the private drive leading in there? Yes, the private drive, right. Well, Tom, you might be able to speak to that. I know like when we did the sidewalk, we talked about the sidewalk maintenance at the town fair tire. We talked about discussion. Do we have a standard set for that just for repairs? Not for private roads. No. No, I mean, you really can't. I don't believe, I'm not sure. I know that what you heard today is that with some improvements going to be proposed to be made to the road they're looking for the town's consideration of taking over that road. But as of today, I don't think the town has any legal or obligation to do anything on that road. No, I didn't think so either. I just didn't know if anything could be done because I think it is something that needs to be addressed, but perhaps not on behalf of the board or the town, but just maybe if there's people that we can talk to in terms of getting that addressed. Okay. Well, I don't, Tom, maybe you can just mention it in passing with a... Oh, trust me, I've talked to them all. We're talking to them again tomorrow. Vince just noted that he can talk to them all too and just mention it. Thank you. I know they realize it's a concern based on their previous meeting we had last week, I think with them. So go ahead, John. Looks like you had your hand up now. Yeah, four round table as the police liaison. I did want to put it on people's radar that we should talk to the chief in an upcoming meeting about issues at the hilltop. You know, I think, you know, I hear quite a few things on the scanner. I think we see some stuff in the paper. I would certainly like to understand what kind of financial burden it's put on the town, if any, around, you know, police coverage, police overtime and those types of things. You know, we've had some preliminary discussions, but I think it's good just for the whole board to understand what's going on there and be briefed because it does affect all of, you know, our residents. I agree, John. And I actually asked Vince to ask the chief to discuss that with us as well. I concur with you. I think that would be great. One of the other things along a similar point to me would be, I mean, I don't know, it would be good to know, get a good understanding or a better understanding of how much time we're over maybe at the Central Vermont Medical Center campus or at Walmart. I'm sure we have, you know, some of the businesses in town just to get an idea so that we can, as the community grows, maybe get a better gauge on how expanded the police force may need to be. Thank you. We can put that on the next round or on the next agenda, I'm assuming then, right? If chief's available. Yeah. Anything else? I have one other thing and I'm not sure if I'll describe it exactly correct, but if you're traveling on Berlin pond and you're heading out as if you're going toward the poor farm before the road turns to class four, my husband and I were out driving that direction one day and there was a delivery truck that was actually very stuck. And we were able to help him by calling a friend to come and pull him out. And he said that his GPS led him in that direction. And I've meant to mention it because I'm wondering if we, the town of Berlin should put up some type of sign there that says that it's not a through road or mentioned the class four, especially this time of year with the mud season, et cetera, because if other vehicles get out there, they're more likely to get even more mired this time of year. Are you talking about where Brookfield Road continues past Mirror Lake Road and then hits Onion River Road or are you talking on the other side? No, just as you just described it exactly. It's definitely a class four trail, but that's the same similar issue that Josh Walker ran into up on Black Road with the GPS. So I'm not sure there's much we can do about it, except for if some, I mean, I would think that common sense as a driver, I would turn around. We said the same, but this poor gentleman, he had no clue where he was, literally. And it's not a high traveled road, obviously. We were just lucky that we were out there and we had a tow truck driver come in from the poor side and back down and was able to get him out of there. But it was getting dark and I just can't even imagine how long you might have been there otherwise. And I just wouldn't want to see anyone else go through that. I got you. Well, anything else? He was following his GPS. Thank you. Mr. Chair, I make a motion that we move into an executive session to talk about a contract issue or contract issues or contracts. Excuse me. Check it out. Any discussion? All those in favor say aye. All right. Expect any action, Justin? No, I don't believe so. Okay, cool. Thank you, Dave. Motion carries. We're now in executive session. Do we need a motion to adjourn? We do. Can I get a motion? I think, yep. So moved. Motion to adjourn. Second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries. We're adjourned.