 Hi and welcome to today's Healthy Marriage. I'm your host, Sharlene Lammers, executive director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. Today our show is Fighting for Your Marriage. I'd like to welcome our guest, Sally Isley. She is a marriage educator and mentor for Great Marriages. Hi and welcome to Healthy Marriage. Thank you very much. So a little bit about you. Can you tell us how long you've been a marriage educator and marriage mentor and perhaps why you decided that you wanted to do this or get involved? My husband and I, Eldon, have been volunteering with Great Marriages for I think between three and four years now. Working with couples, one on one, two on two, whatever you want to say. And it's a great program called Prepare and Rich. And why did we get into it? I would say the main reason is because I see how having a strong marriage affects society and we want to help people keep their marriage very strong and healthy. You're in it, you're married, let's make it a good one. Okay and you were trained and certified in these programs? Yes, yes. So you know what, as a marriage educator, marriage mentor, you've taught a number of programs. In addition to your marriage mentoring, you're also a marriage educator and you teach programs for us. What types of programs have you taught and you know why do you teach those programs? The ones that I've taught in the past was the Five Love Languages. I love that book. It absolutely teaches us how to make our spouse feel deeply loved. And if we don't understand what our mate's love language is, that area will never be fulfilled. And the other class that I taught a few years ago was the Seven Stages of Marriage. Very thick book, took a long time to get through, but it helps us understand that when we get married, we're not going to be the two people that we are. Then, 34 years later, as my husband and I, we've been married 34 years, our life evolves, our marriage changes. And this book with Seven Stages explains that there are the different stages that we go through throughout our lifetime. And not to be worried or concerned about it, like some couples, like, what's happening? Our marriage is not the way it was back three years ago, and it's okay. It's just the way life is. Our marriage does change. Now you're teaching the program fighting for your marriage. So you know Five Love Languages focuses on how we can better love each other, meet each other's love needs. Seven Stages focuses on, like you said, there are Seven Stages. Not all are wonderful, and we all go through them. And our marriage is not stagnant, which is almost a good thing, especially if you're in a bad place. It changes, and it can become good and bad. And then fighting for your marriage, maybe for couples who perhaps are experiencing some conflicts or just needing to fight a little harder, work a little harder at their marriage perhaps. Can you tell, you know, how have you summed up the other two programs? How would you sum up fighting for your marriage? Fighting for your marriage explains, actually, it starts out with destructive patterns. What are we doing in our marriage that is not healthy? They are escalation, invalidation, negative interpretations, withdrawal, and avoidance. And I'm sure that most of us have done all of them things in our marriage, and it teaches us how to not escalate when we do have our differences. And it also talks, it gives a lot of scenarios, which I really enjoy in the book, because it gives you the scenario of unhealthy way. And then it talks about how can we do that different, and it'll have a scenario in how can you calm that voice, and rather than attacking, just stating the I values, the I statements. So you mentioned four different areas of destructive behavior that it can occur in a marriage, right? Can we break them down? You mentioned what they were. Can we talk about each a little bit and maybe give an example so that the audience can understand perhaps if they're engaging of this, you know, an example of an unhealthy way and a healthy way to handle it. So the first one was escalation. Right. An example for escalation is in the book was a couple decided to have a fun night. They're going to go out to a baseball game. And but she'd been concerned in the past about how his family interferes in their personal time. And so they're on the driving, they're on the way to the baseball game and his mother calls. Well, it wasn't the 32nd phone call. It was a very, very lengthy phone call. So she was upset about that. Your mother's always interfering. Why did you take the phone call? And he's like, well, what do you think I'm going to do? You know, and so that kind of room the night for them. And it was supposed to be the fun night out, which is a good thing to have. So the second example was, honey, I'm upset that you took the phone call. And he's like, what do you expect me to do? She goes, well, I have a lot to say about it, but let's put it on hold. This is our fun night. Let's go and enjoy ourselves. And we'll set up a time to talk about it later. Okay, so that was de-escalating it. In the second example, they took the fire out of the argument, put it on hold till a more appropriate time where they could sit down and have a discussion on that specifically. Right. And that's the important thing, not to let it go, because so many times people will say, we're not going to talk about it, just leave it be. But you have to come back to it and discuss it. You do, because we, you and I know from being in this organization and working with couples that the number one cause of divorce is the avoidance of conflict. Right. So it's not that we avoid the conflict, we have to deal with the conflict, especially something that is hurting one over and over. They need to talk about it, but you need to talk about it when you're calm in the right place in the right time. So it needs to be, came back to, but addressed in a more healthy manner, instead of escalating. Right. So we're, you know, we catch ourselves escalating. How can we put the brakes on? It's just a conscious choice or say this is, do we have code words or how can we put the brakes on if we catch ourselves escalating? Does it discuss that aspect of it? Well, it's just something that you have to be thinking about really throughout, throughout life. Okay. Is this the time to, to discuss it? Or do we need to say, you know, let's come back to it because of wherever you're at, you know, you don't want to be in an improper place when you're discussing it. The book actually recommends that you have a weekly meeting. Okay. So if you decide and you can't fit another time in, at least you know, okay, the weekly meeting, we will be able to come back and have the healthy discussion on it. Right. And we talk about, you know, that weekly meeting, how important it is, you know, when a couple is experiencing conflict or having a rough time, you almost need a daily meeting until you get on track. And then the weekly meeting is good. But it's important at the weekly meeting to discuss what's going well in our relationship, as well as what's going wrong in our relationship. So it doesn't turn into just a complaining session that nobody wants to attend. But if, if you can both say one or two things that went well that week, and then one or two things that went not so well that you need to talk about, that always works well. Well, the second one then escalation was first is invalidation. Right. Well, can you talk to us about regarding invalidation? What does that mean? Invalidating one another is very destructive because you're putting down the other person, their thoughts, their feelings. And that person feels so unworthy and hurt. And how does that help a marriage? It doesn't at all. Do we have examples of invalidation, perhaps? The example in the book was the husband had missed the doctor's appointment. And the wife was very upset about it. And she says, you're a creep, just like your father was. And that's invalidating, you know, calling names like that. And we need to agree. We don't call names. We don't swear. You know, I think the invalidation comes from we over generalized. Oh, you missed an appointment. Therefore, you're responsible, you're unpredictable, you're, you know, don't follow through, you don't care about me. It goes on to something so much bigger. We attack their character, their person in all aspects, instead of just addressing that appointment. At that time, a specific issue. What happened in lion? Yeah, it the book came back and it gave another example of a healthy way. Okay. And she said, you missed your doctor's appointment. He's like, well, you know, and she said, but I worry about you when you miss your doctor's appointment, because you know, we're concerned about whatever it is he was going to the doctor about. And she's just like, I'm worried, because I want you to be there for me. You know, later on in life, I want you to take care of yourself and be there. I want us to be together many years. Very good. And so that that changed the whole tone, you know, when when she put it that way. And he rephrased it and said, Okay, I understand, you're worried about me not being there in the future for you. When I'm not going to the doctor to take care of myself. Yeah, so she was upset, not because she was mad at me as a bad person, but because she loves him right and wants him around. Correct. Yeah. And then the third one is negative interpretations. And we see that all the time. Don't we? Yep. So can you explain negative interpretations? Negative interpretations. Let me think about this for a second. What was the example on that? It's not coming to my mind. Well, you know, the negative interpretations, I always tell the couples it's, you know, you're looking at the world through these gray glasses. And everything seems bad. And and you look for the negative aspects, you look for the bad. And I always tell them, when you look for the bad, you will find them. Same as if you turn around and look for good, you will find that too. But when you're involved in negative interpretations, everything seems to be negative and everything seems to validate your beliefs. You know, oh, they did that. Yep, see, I knew they were going to. And if they do something positive, you kind of dismiss it as well, they didn't really mean it. That was just a fluke because basically they're bad. You know, then the negative interpretations gets in our way. And how do we change that into something more positive? And I do remember the, the book saying, look for the good. There's always good in everybody. And I know in my own personal experience, like I said, my husband and I, we've been married 34 years. And, and we all have problems. Every marriage have problems, you know, and there was a point in my life where I had to work on looking for the good. It isn't isn't that it was all negative. It's just that's all I was focusing on for a time in our marriage. Right. You know, we talk about that with lots of programs. Thinking about the blessings in our lives and the things that we have to be appreciative for and the reasons we fell in love to begin with, you know, we take a lot of that for granted. We just expect it should be that way. We don't realize other people don't have everything we have. And they don't have a home and they don't have a spouse that comes home every night. You know, so you're fighting, but they're there, you know, and they're going to work and they're paying the bills. And, and that that shows love and commitment, not the in love feeling, but right, but the real love. Right. And when we mentor couples through the Prepare and Rich program, I always ask them, what drew you to one another in the first place? You know, because when you're in, if you're in the mode of, you know, not having a good relationship at the moment, think back. What was it that drew you to one another? So to look for that positive. So what if a couple says to you, you know, I'm not in love anymore? I don't I don't love them. Well, we all go through them times. Every marriage goes through them times where we don't feel that in love feeling. And that's where it comes down to commitment. We have to be committed through them tough times. And I was sharing with a couple last night, they actually only been married six years, her first, his second, and even though they're a little bit older in life. And I mentioned about when we're not as we go through our marriage, there will be times that we don't feel in love. So that is not what holds us together. It's our commitment. And that was an eye opener to this newly married, you know, even though six years that it had never crossed her mind that people would not feel in love. And you you need to hold to that commitment. Our culture kind of feeds into that. You know, our culture talks about soulmate and finding that one perfect person for us. And if we only find that one perfect person, then we'll be in love forever and we'll never argue and everything will be great. You know, but great marriages are not perfect. No. And there's no such thing. Right. And like you said, people can have a great marriage, but think but we still have problems. The difference is how we work through them. That's that's the main difference. How committed back to the word correct, correct. Then the last one is withdrawal and avoidance. What what is that all about? That's when people just don't want to deal with it. They withdraw. They avoid the conflict. It's just we they don't want to talk about it. And because it's hard. It's hard to bring up. I know in my own life, you know, when I bring up issues, my hearts are pounding, you know, because it's uncomfortable. My mouth goes dry. And but it means things need to be talked out so that we don't build up, you know, piles and piles of resentment and letting the hurt stay there. When you talk about it, then it's going to work itself out and understand being able to understand each other's perspective. Right. And that goes back to, you know, the avoidance being the number one cause of divorce when you start avoiding the other person and just coexisting in the same house. That's not a great time. So how do we fix that? It's not that we leave the house and get divorced. How do we get back to the point where we like being together and not avoiding each other? What do we need to do to change that? And the withdrawal basically just shutting down. You're having the same arguments over and over and you're sick of it because you feel like here we go again. I know where this is going to lead. So I'm not even going to go there. Well, when you stop discussing it, then there's no chance to remedy it. So you're walking away. So we have to find a new plan, a new way to talk about it. Definitely. You know, did you find this program to be a fix it or preventative? Or actually both. Yeah. Because those that are in any of these stages, you know, it's like, okay, now the book gives you the tools how to work through it. And if you're newly married, you know, because we do have couples that come to us and go through these programs or go through the prepare and rich program that are just dating, maybe just engaged. We worked with a couple that had been married for two months and they did not want to fall into bad habits. And so it's for all. It's for everybody. You know, the book also talks about handling conflict, you know, being safe at home filters, basically that we have in our relationship. Can you discuss some of the filters perhaps? Right. What happens is a lot of times we talk with one another. And we really don't hear what they say. Okay. And that's because of the filters that that that we have in our life. The filters that are out there are distractions, emotional states, beliefs and expectations, different styles and self protection. So let's just examine them a little bit. Distractions. What what may, you know, some examples of distractions be? Can they are they just exterior, you know, environmental distractions or the internal also? They're actually both. You know, the external are, you know, noisy kids, too much TV or rate radio on the internals are just being tired, having different different moods, thinking about what's on your plate that you have to get done. So these distractions make it hard for us to resolve conflict and have good communication? Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So then this the second one is emotional states. Right. What might some examples of that be? That actually is how our moods affect our communication, because when a person has they're in a good lighthearted mood, and we sit down and have a discussion, they're much more open to hearing the positives in in everything and seeing the positiveness in whatever they're talking about. But when we're down and don't feel well, then we see so much more negative. So it's important to when we do get together to have our talks that we're both in a better mood than in a bad mood. You know, I always like think of the example with the emotional states of it. This happened with one of my couples a long time ago. So I always remember it came home and he would always say what's for dinner because he looked forward to coming home and having dinner and he would get excited about whatever was there, you know. But he had a bad day, a really bad day. And she's a homemaker and she had a really bad day. Kids were not behaving, things were going wrong. There was something wrong with the plumbing. I mean, it was just like one thing after another. So they're both in bad state of mind. He walks in and goes, what's for dinner? I'm starving. But doesn't say in a loving caring matter. Kind of like barking and demanding. So she said, I don't know what are you fixing? So that was going to go downhill real quick. Right? You know, that all of a sudden is just an argument in the making. And it was just by reaction. So we talked about, well, what could have went better? How could that have went better? Well, if he came in and said that she could have said, wow, I see that you had a bad day and that it's not going well, so did I. Let's get a pizza. You know, I mean, the whole thing could have been changed if the emotional state could have been pulled back a little bit. And we had a new reaction. Right. And that's seeing the other person's perspective, how being concerned, how was your day? Exactly. Or for him to acknowledge before he came and I had a really bad day, I need to just step back and say, walk in the door and say, I had a really bad day. I'm just going to sit down for a minute to announce that that happened. When we know our filters and we announced them, then that can help other people to deal with them. Right. Okay. So then the third one is beliefs and expectations. You know, what about beliefs and expectations? We know expectations. What do we expect? How do they line up with everyday life? Are they out of line? Are they reasonable or unreasonable? And we need to really understand because if we if we have our expectations way up here, but our spouse doesn't can't make it up there, then we're just going to be disappointed. But if we have our expectations too low, then there's nothing to shoot for either. So we need to understand where expectations are and really take a critical look at that to see if they're actually in line or if they're unrealistic. That's a good point. We talk about unrealistic expectations and how that sets you up for failure and disappointment. Unrealistic expectations, maybe. Well, if you don't do this, then you don't love me. Or if you love me, you should know. Yeah. The main thing is none of us can read minds. And I think so many of us women come into marriage thinking that they can read our minds. And it's not true. I know I did, you know. And and that's good to hear. My sister had to set me straight and saying, he cannot read your mind. You need to tell him. Yeah. What about differences in style? Difference in styles. We have different ways of communicating. And that can really cause a problem and communication. I know that there was this gal that even though she's American born, she grew up in in a South American country. And I was talking to her one day and kind of not telling a joke, but telling the scenario, which was kind of funny. And she just kind of sat there and I gave her a funny look and she goes, I just don't understand this culture. And I was like, oh, wow, you know, so that's that's a way that things can be different in style. It also can be from the influences around us, our family, even gender. Gender is different in style. I mean, we have examples of extroverted people and introverted people, people who talk a lot, use many words, people who use fewer words. Some of us were raised in a family that was loud and boisterous and some of us were raised in a more quiet home where you didn't say so much. So you bring all of that right into your marriage and your relationship. And it has an effect. Right. And usually couples are attracted to almost the opposite. You know, you have the party of the life and you have the wallflower. And how do you how do you deal with that? You know, our deep personality as to who we really are really probably will never change. But we need to come to an acceptance of who one another is. And then the last one is self protection. Self protection really is hitting at the heart of our fear, because none of us want to be rejected. And so we protect ourselves by really not sharing our deepest needs and feelings with one another because fear of that rejection. You know, that's a good point because when we don't share our deepest needs and desires with our spouse, our spouse can't meet them. And we will not make ourselves vulnerable sometimes even to our spouse. And if we don't share them, then they can't be met. And we're left feeling not loved and disappointed. So how do how do we do that? You know, how do how are we able to do that? Well, the way to do that is to learn how to talk without fighting, which is the next area that we're going to hit on. You have to be able to talk in a safe environment and know you're right, you're loved, right. Anyhow, and know that that commitment is there, that they will accept us no matter what. And that kind of goes to friendship because friendship is important. It talks the program talks about friendship in a marriage that's safety. That can you touch upon that friendship aspect real quick? The friendship is what we all desire. I know that as women, we can get together and we can just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you know, and let our hair down. Can we do the same thing with our spouse? You know, we really should be able to do that. But if we have that fear of rejection of who we are, then it doesn't happen. But as we become closer and we're able to discuss things more openly, then that friendship will come in. And as we hit on the next part about having our weekly meetings, using the speaker listener technique, that friendship will come. But also I want to hit on the friendship and fun. Fun is important in a marriage. Absolutely. This program is excellent. And we have to close for today because we're out of time. But we will come back and have a part two on fighting for your marriage. So that's our show for today. I'd like to thank you for joining us at Healthy Marriage. We hope that you'll check our website for upcoming programs and events and we'll see you next time. Remember marriage, it does matter.