 Hello and welcome to the new season of the Coaching Manual podcast hosted by me, Danny Mills. Today I'm joined by former Manchester United, Middlesbrough and West Bromwich Albion midfielder, Jonathan Greening. Jono made over 250 league appearances in a career that spanned 21 years. He was also part of the famous Manchester United squad that won the treble in 99, including the Champions League. Jono is now head of player development at the I2I International Soccer Academy in York, a program that allows players to train and study at a very high level while doing a degree. So welcome Jono, really appreciate you coming on our podcast. So let's go back to the beginning. What got you into football? What got you started playing football? Well I absolutely love football from a younger age. Always had a ball at my feet, always practising. Then obviously got one of five kids, three brothers, one sister, one of us loved football. So from the start my dad absolutely loved it. So from like two or three, always with a ball. And then did you go into grass roots? Yeah, yeah, so I played for a team in Scarborough. Schools Park Reds were called. I'm beating for about ten years. And it's great now, just look at it now. You're reminiscing on what we knew about 30 years ago, maybe. You've just got a smile on your face. And I think that's what people forget when people have gone into professional football and become very, very successful. When you look back on those days, just the pure enjoyment of just having fun playing football at that age. 100% right. I think I speak to coaches. Nowadays kids play too much. And I'm like, play too much. I've played every single day, you know, before school, dinner time, after school, game on the Monday night, two games on a Saturday, two games on a Sunday, five side of my dad, you know, on a Friday night. Played all the time. And I think nowadays, coaches, I hear say, you know, they're going to get burnt out. They're going to get burnt out. I'm thinking, oh, yeah, I just wanted to play. So when did you first move into, I suppose, the professional system? Who first recognised that you had more than a little bit of a availability? Well, it was, I was 14. Didn't go through an academy or anything like that. So you were quite late, really, in terms of getting into the system? Yeah, really late. I got spotted actually playing for North Yorkshire football, you know, the Repside. Got into the under 15s team. We played again against South Yorkshire. I think I scored three. Obviously, you know, I used to be a striker when I first started. I was never that good to even start as being a striker. Yeah, so scored three. And then somebody pulled my dad on the way out in the car park. Just a quite little word. You probably know what it is. A guy called Ricky Sprazier, who was actually doing the Man United 23s at the moment, and said to my dad, would you all, I'd like to come for a trial next week in York City. And my dad said, yeah. But the funny thing about is the next week when I was supposed to go on trial for my trial game, I got stuck on the bloody A64 coming from Scarborough to York. And then back in massive crash, I actually missed my trial game. So obviously, no mobile phones in them days, couldn't phone, say you didn't turn up. You weren't turned up, there's been a crash or whatever. So Ricky Sprazier just thought I didn't turn up. So on the Monday night, the landline goes and it's Ricky Sprazier. Why didn't you say anything yesterday? My dad's like, I apologise, you know, I'm thinking, oh, this is over with. I'm crying and upset, you know what I mean? So in fact, technology could have ended your career, or lack of technology. Lack of technology, yeah. It could have been a case of they'd have thought he's not interested, he's not bothered, or for whatever reason, and I suppose it could have easily gone the other way and they'd have just ignored you completely. I suppose you were quite lucky that they actually phoned you up. Where were you? Really? Not picking you up, but they must have actually thought that you were a decent player because a lot of players, they'd have just been. Yeah, I was really lucky. I remember being so upset that weekend and then obviously Ricky phoned on the Monday night, but can imagine if he, as you say, if he didn't phoned, you know, my career might not have got started. Anyway, I went the next week and did OK in a trial game, and then they signed me on Schoolboy Forms, and that's how my career started, really. So was he the biggest influence, you would say, or were there other coaches that had a huge influence in your development, in your young career? I think, yeah, he was one of them. Obviously, a couple of years later, when I was 16, and I just signed the first year YTS, he went to Sunderland, he got poached by Sunderland. He tried to take me with him, but Sunderland wouldn't pay the 50 grand the York City wanted. Can I just let everybody know, listen, this is 50 grand for you, not 50 grand a week. This is how far we're going back by the way. I think I'd have been on 38-pound YTS money or something like that. I can't remember what it was actually, because there'll be kids listening now that thinking, 50 grand, is that all? Premier League player, Champions League winner, whatever. No, this is 50 grand for you. Yeah, just for me to go from York to Sunderland, not 50 grand a week. But yeah, so I ended up staying, but my coaches at York City had quite a few, a guy called Brian Neves, Derek Bell, Paul Stankliffe. They probably saw a lot in me because I was a late developer. I probably wasn't strong enough or fast enough because I didn't have any endurance. I probably had the skill, but I lacked physicality. So then obviously you did well there. So how did the move about going to Manchester United, how did that come about? Well actually, I was on an old York City staff, players, night out on Saturday night, and I saw the manager giving me my chance in the first team at York, Alan Little. And it's a good story actually. I remember cracking into the first team about 18, 19. I scored loads of goals in the reserves, put me in the first team, and we played full of them at home. And he put me up front with a guy called Gary Bull, I don't know if you remember him, quite a prolific score in the lower leagues. He was about 33 at the time, I was about 18. And I played terribly. I mean, I was shocking. You know, even when you look back now, I cringe, you know, that's how bad it was. And I remember going after the game, past the manager's office, and all I heard was, Jono, can I have a word? And he was a scary guy. You know, a bit like Alex Ferguson, had that aura about him, horrible headmaster kind of thing. You know, he didn't want to get told off by him. And I thought, oh no, I'm in trouble here. So he called me in, sat down, and he says, how would you like to go to Manchester United, son? And I was like... What, to watch a game? I was like, what do you mean? He went, Alex Ferguson's been on the phone. He wants you to go trading next week Monday to Friday. Do you fancy it? And I was still thinking he was going to crack a joke. And he went, I went, are you being serious? He went, yes. Do you think I'm joking? And I said, oh, I thought you were bringing me into the ball at me because I played terribly. And he started laughing. And anyway, I decided, obviously, I'm not going to turn it down. I supported Manchester United as a young kid. I ended up going to Manchester United on the Monday. And I trained Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And I always remember after my four days of training, I trained with the first team, not the reserves or the A team, it was with the first team. Alex Ferguson called me in his office and said, listen, son, out of all the young kids who have ever come on trial here, you are one of the best we've ever seen. He says, it's not fair, it's your one little bit. And then a couple of weeks later, I went there. I mean, and that must, confidence-wise, you know, a huge accolade from one of what we now know is possibly the greatest ever manager in England, in the UK, possibly the world, what he achieved. Massive confidence boost for you, huge bonus. But what about the players that you were playing with? So you'd have been just behind the class of 92. Were you a year, a couple of years younger? No, so I was, yeah, four and a half, five years younger. I know I look old now. I thought you were my age, so you're a little bit younger than me. But I mean, so that must, again, so you're training with these guys now, day in, day out. This is almost more than a dream come true, I'm guessing at that age. Massive dream come true, supported United as a kid, loved Eric Cantona. He unfortunately just retired a couple of seasons before that. But to be playing with the likes of, you know, Skulls, Becks, Kino, you know, Peter Schmeichel, players like that, was just amazing. And at first, you know, probably first, you know, you struggle, you know, you think I'm not quick enough, I'm not fast enough, you know, I need to get better at this, but you just got to challenge yourself to, you know, trying to get better. But you must have learned so much from the players, from the manager, anything in particular that stands out, that there were moments where you just went, light bulb moments, oh, that's it. That's what I need to do. This is what I need to listen to. Standard, you know, well, you'll know this because you played, you know, the top level and played for England, but standards was the biggest thing. I wasn't good enough to play for United. You probably were maybe a long time. You were a long time. But yeah, I think standards was the biggest thing I learned. Roy Keane was, you know, his standards were so high, but he set the bar for everybody else, really. And if anybody dropped below them standards, he would be on you. So for example, you know, timekeeping, you know, professionalism, wearing the right kit, you know, respectful to staff in training grounds. Because I think people sometimes forget those little things actually make a difference, you know, and when you see it now, players walking in with headphones on or looking a little bit sloppy, it's very, very easy for young players to fall into that trap and they are, I just do what I like. But the moment you have a bad game, that gets thrown at you. Your hair's too long. Your beard's too scruffy. Your shirt's undone. All these little bits and pieces. And clearly for you, that's one of the standout things about to Alex that made him such a great guy. Those standards, maybe like Pep Guardiola is now, were so exact. Yeah, 100%, I think Alex Ferguson drove those standards, Roy Keane drove those standards. And if training wasn't on point, it wasn't the actual manager or probably coaching staff who actually said anything. It was the actual players. You know, so if, for example, a possession game was getting sloppy and people were giving it their way, it was the actual players who were actually having a go at each other. And sometimes, you know, what it's like, sometimes it gets heated. And I think that's what was so amazing about that squad at the time. I know standards obviously drove you to the most successful team and be part of that of all time. The treble win inside, league, cup, champions league. I mean, just how good was it to be part of that? You know, you're a treble winner. Yeah, I mean, it was amazing, but I still think, you know, I feel like a fraud every now and again. You know what I mean? People say, oh, you don't deserve to have the Champions League medal. And I get that because I didn't make an appearance that year. But what people don't understand is a new know what it's like. You know, I trained every single day hard. I travel to every single game that year in the league, FA Cup, Carling Cup, Champions League. Usually, yes, I was the 19th man left in the stands, you know, but I was always learning. But every time we come back from the Champions League at two in the morning the next day, I go and play in the reserves. And, you know, I was obviously a striker. Like I mentioned before, before I got turned into a winger all centre-mid. And that's got a couple of goals. You know, I think I got 28 goals in the reserves in 22 games that season. So behind the scenes, you know, I was working extra hard. I was trying to get better. I mean, I get that totally. I did that with England an awful lot. You know, only 19 caps. But I was probably in 50, 60 squads, often sat behind Gary Neville in the stands knowing full well. Unless he got injured, I wasn't going to play. And I think people forget that sometimes. There's an awful lot of work that goes into the rest of the squad. And I think now we do see these big squads. But the effort and the work that you put in, it's almost more than what the first team players are putting in. Because you're doing all the work they're doing. OK, you may not play the 90 minutes, but you've still got to then get up the next morning train, go to the reserve games and do almost extra work to what they're doing. Exactly, yeah. You hit the nail on the head. And I think, you know, but it's part of being a young player in the game as well. You're still learning your trade. I think playing, you know, I was at United three years, but, you know, I only made 34 appearances in all competition. But I probably played 100 reserve games and another 50 behind close games, you know. So I got a lot of development from that. I left at 22 because I needed to start playing regularly. And I didn't just want to be a player that, you know, stays at a team and be a squad player. You went to Middlesbrough, didn't you? Yeah. With Steve McLaren. And it's often said that Steve McLaren is one of the best coaches around. Obviously, I work with him at Middlesbrough and with England. I thought he was a fantastic coach. Can you put it into your... What do you think made him a great coach? If you think he was a good coach? Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think Steve was a brilliant coach. When he was at Man United, I think when Alex Ferguson brought him in, obviously Brian Kidd, who was a legend of the United at the time, had gone. So it was a big, you know, void to fill. But he came in. His enthusiasm, as you know, his sessions are always spot on. He's always enthusiastic. The sessions flow really nicely. And he expects hard work and high standards. And I totally agree with you. I think he's a top, top coach. And when he asked Alex Ferguson if he could take me to Middlesbrough with him, you know, it got a little bit tricky because Alex Ferguson wanted me to stay. Steve had obviously accepted the job at Middlesbrough and he wanted to take me. And I think that summer, I think United had just signed Van Nistoroy for a lot of money and Veron for a lot of money. So when I had to knock on Alex Ferguson's door to have to leave was not a pleasant experience. I'm sure it wasn't. But you obviously did very, very well for Middlesbrough. Play of the year, 0-2-0-3, if I'm right? Yeah, correct, yeah. So again, you know, you're going there. So you must be 22, 23 at the time. I mean, that's a fabulous start, you know, to your career. Coming from Manchester United, getting play of the year. Is there anything in particular that Steve had done at that time or the coaches have done to improve you even more than when you're at Manchester United? Yeah, I think the first year I actually struggled to be fair, Milsie. You know, I'd gone from playing seven or eight games in the first team a year to playing 38 games in one year, Premier League games. It was a tough first season. Quite a few fans were on my back to be fair. But I think the best thing about Steve McClaren was he stuck with me. He knew that I was a good player and that I was learning and, you know, getting my first season of playing. And had that helped that you'd worked with him at United because he'd seen you day in, day out and he knew you could probably handle, if you can handle the pressure of being in even United's training squad, you can handle pretty much anything else. I think you're totally right. I think he knew I could handle it. You know, he knew I could take the stick from the fans, you know, if I was getting booed on the pitch or whatever. And then I remembered after my first year... Don't think you ever got booed as much as I did. I'm not sure about that. But after my first year, I remember him coming back pre-season and he said this year is going to be your year. I played nearly every minute of every game and he's got three per the years that year and really enjoyed it. My third year when you came, it was quite a successful season when the Carlin Cup. Obviously, I got injured in the semi-final, Tom or Fi tried to get back fit for the final, but Steve bombed me out for Stewie Downing, who went on to have a good career, so I played to him. I mean, we did. We had an incredible squad of players. We lacked a real centre forward. We had about seven false number-nines at the time. We didn't really have anyone to score too many goals. You were a midfielder winger at the time, but of course we had Gareth Southgate, who was one of the reasons that I went there on loan for that season. I knew Gareth very, very well. I mean, what was he like as a captain? You played with him longer than I did. Yeah, I played with him for a full three years. The summer I went to Middlesbrough, he came as well. And he was... What I can say about Gareth is he's an absolute gentleman, you know, on the pitch, off the pitch. But he's professionalism, probably similar to Roy Keane, he drives high standards, you know. Not quite as angry. Maybe not as angry, but he probably does it in a more polite, you know, nicer way, because that's the kind of guy he is. But he demands, you know, 100% in training, 100% in games. And he was a born winner really, you know. He was really good for me as a young kid, because, you know, he'd give me advice on what I need to do better, what I needed to work on and stuff like that. And I think, you know, he's done tremendous, obviously, with England, so... And did you always think that he would go into coaching? That would be his pathway? Yeah, he was definitely that kind of player, you know, straight away, sort of like, you know, he was the one who was probably going to go into coaching or manager. Obviously, he had the chance at Middlesbrough when he was coming towards the end of his playing career, but, you know, it didn't quite work out. And I think, you know, what he did well is he took himself out of the game a little bit, you know, went around watching, seen a few interviews he's done, you know, other people take training. He did the, obviously, England 21s for quite a few years. And he's, you know, he's built himself back up to, you know, England manager. And, you know, he's really highly thought of. Well, I always look back on, like I said, I was Gareth Schofer for a while. I used to drive him in pretty much every day. But, again, you talk about the standards you had at Manchester United. He'd obviously been at Palace, at Villa. My big club's been captain. His standards were the same. And I say to people now, he never messed about in training. I might have done from time to time. Not when it was time to work, but outside of that, you have a bit of a laugh and a joke and kicking balls here and everywhere and whatever. You know, we'd have to have a two-touch and you'd beat me pretty much every day. I don't think I ever beat you a whole season. But even in those little boxes, those little rondos and whatever, every single pass that he made was proper. There was never any flicking the ball around or trying to nutmeg people. Every single day, he'd have a massage. Every single day, he'd make sure he'd drink and eat the right foods and prepare. And I suppose that's now what he's trying to instill into these younger players at England, trying to go back to those old-school standards. Yeah, and I think old-school standards, you know, is a must. I think, as you say, like, you know, you know, Rondo boxes. I mean, obviously, I'm a coach now and it really annoys me when people start flicking, because I'm like... Like you did. No, I never went in the middle. Ever went in the middle. You know that. But like, I think you get obviously a different head on one of your coach, anyway, but Rondo boxes, small possession games... They're for a reason, aren't they? Yeah, the name of the game is not to go in the middle. Not to give them all away. That's the whole point. I think you did used to stitch me up a few times. Yeah, I might stitch you up a few times and annoy me, but... But yeah, high standards, I think, and old-school values are massive in the game, still. And of course, you moved on to West Brom, worked under Gary Megson, Tony Mowbray, another player of the year. I mean, you've done... You've done not bad, have you, in terms of player of the year, and that's what I mean, and that's difficult. Different clubs, different styles, different appreciations. You missed my young player of the year at Man United. You're not doing your homework properly now. We don't count young players. That doesn't care. That doesn't care. But I suppose, of all the managers, is there one that stands out in terms of coaching that was different or better than all the rest? Obviously, Steve McClaren, fantastic coach. We've talked about him quickly. I think one that affected me, you know, you have certain coaches and managers who, you know, who probably see something in you you might not have seen yourself, was probably Tony Mowbray, I'd say, at West Brom. He came in after Brian Robson and Gary Mekson had left. And after one game, he said to me, going back to stand, as I suppose, he said, listen, I've heard a lot about you, but I just wanted to say, you know, I've watched you in training over the last week, 10 days. You're professionalism. You know, wanting to do extra this, that, and the other. I want to make you captain. And I said straight away, I said, I'm not sure about that, Gaffer. I says, because, you know, me, putting that vocal on the pitch or anything like that, you know, I obviously have a chat with players, but I wasn't, you know, a screamer of all or, you know, a tough tackler or anything like that. And he just said to me, listen, I want you as captain. He said, I want people to see, you know, how hard you work in training. You're one of the first to leave. You're always getting massages. And he named me captain. So I remember going home and telling my mum and dad and my dad was like, are you sure? I was like, cheers, dad. I think that was the transition of the old school captain, vocal, shouting, throwing teacups, you know, ruling by, you know, iron fist or something, actually, ruling by leading by example. You know, this is how we do it. These are the standards. These are the sort of, this is moving towards a more technical-based captain rather than a screamer and a shouter. Yeah, maybe, but at the time, I didn't really know that. My captains, I'd always had, you know, lead from the front, you know, Keen or Southgate. I think even you were vice captain once, right? Yeah, I can't remember. But yeah, I think, you know, it just caught me by surprise and I think, what he really believed in me, he changed me from left wing or right wing to sitting centre midfield player and he said he wanted me to take the pace of the game, you know, slow things down, speed things up, switches of play, through balls and be the main, be the main man, really, in the team. And I think for them few years we had Tony Mulberry. We obviously got to the playoff final against Darby. Lost 1-0 even though we absolutely battered him in the final. The following year we went up as champions. I think we scored quite a few goals. Kev Phillips got 30 or something like that. And we lost in the semi-final of the FA Cup to Portsmouth. Even though we should have won that game as well. So it was, you know, two successful seasons and then the third season under Tony, obviously we got ready to get it from the Premier League. Even though we actually played great stuff, we probably just didn't have a goal score because Kev Phillips had gone. That was our main downfall. Again, was that your mandate at the time? We are going to play good football no matter what and not going to sacrifice too many of those principles. Yeah, I think it was. Tony Mulberry loved to play out from the back, loved to play through the thirds, wanted the two-cent, however he played, he played with one centre midfield innovative back then, wasn't it? No one else was really doing that. We need to win, let's get the ball forward, shell it long, boot it as far as possible, get it in the box. Yeah, yeah, true. I remember some of the early games for Tony Ads and, you know, would win a few games. You know what it's like when you win a few games, the fans are always on your side, but if you draw a couple at home or whatever, you know, the fans start getting a bit shaky. And I remember playing a game at home and I can't remember it was against and it was 0-0 at halftime, but they had absolutely battered them, you know, would pass them off the pitch, probably, I don't know, just 75% possession, whatever, but we should have scored a few goals. Anyway, it was 0-0, I remember getting booed off. I remember Tony, who you probably know anyway, nice and calmly walked in and said, lads, don't worry about the fans being in. Keep playing the same way, they can't chase the ball like that for another 20 minutes, they will go in 10-15 minutes. And we ended up winning the game 3-4-0 and after the game, he just walked in and said, I told you, simple as that. You're listening to the Coaching Manual podcast hosted by me, Danny Mills. After West Brom, you moved on to Fulham, worked with another England manager, so you've got Gareth you've worked with, not as a manager technically, Roy, Steve McLaren. I mean, was Roy different to the others? Roy was very different. I really like Roy. It was great and obviously it took me... I think Roy gets a hard time sometimes because his demeanour that he comes across in press conferences and to the media, it's quite dour, it's quite dull, quite boring. I always say to people, I don't understand it. If you're in a room with Roy, and just all you're having a chat with him, he's engaging, he's funny, he's got the moment the camera comes on, it goes. And I just wish he would come out and be a little bit more expressive like that sometimes. I think it's a defence mechanism for him, he's certainly right. He's a really nice guy, he's got great stories, he's quite a funny guy, he's very, very intelligent, he speaks a lot of languages. When you talk to him, you are engaged in what he's actually saying. Unfortunately, I had a year with him, it was the year we got to the Europa League Final of Fulham, 2009-10. And all I can say about Roy is he's so well organised. Every single player that year knew the rules and responsibilities. It didn't matter if it was me playing centre midfield, Danny Murphy, Dix and Ertuu, we all knew what we had to do, or if I had to play on the left, every single position everybody knew the rules and responsibility individually and within the team. And he likes to get to banks of four, one of the strikers sitting on there lying midfielder, maybe not a possession-based game, but I tell you what, we knew our rules well. And you were so close to winning Europa League Final of that stage. That meant you would have had Champions League and Europa League. It would have been nice if it would have won it, but it would have been a bit better because at least I played a few games in that Europa League. But it was a great season, the manager was top notch with me. Training was as intense as probably Esteem McLaren's training sessions, it was more shape, you know, and strategy work really, but other than that, you know, it was really good season. Great team spirit, great set of lads, and the biggest thing about them, professionalism to the top. So obviously football come to an end. We just sort of go back and remind people, the way I look at it, you're an incredibly gifted technical player, a lot of ability, keep the ball almost ahead of your generation. I look at it now, you'd have fitted in perfectly to the way that teams play now. You know, sometimes maybe the games that I played in and played against you at times is a bit more physical to say the least. First thing I've done is kick you off the park. That was just how it was. But the huge big thing now is everyone talks about ball retention. You know, you're now a coach. Coaching kids at a very, very good level. How has it changed in your opinion and how has the game evolved from what it was even sort of 10 years ago? Well, you definitely would have kicked me straight away from playing against you. But yeah, it's definitely changed. I think, you know, you probably can't tackle as hard as what, you know, you could tackle back in the day. We're not that old, but we call it back in the day, don't we? I think ball retention I think it has to start at younger age. You know, you look at the Spanish Italian kids, you know, they're playing small-sided games, giving them challenges in small-sided games, you know, two touch, three touch, three touch, one touch finish, 10 passes before you can score a goal. And they're getting that from a really, really early age in Spain and Italy and places like that. Whereas not so much in England. I mean, I've got two boys and all three of my kids, my eldest girl, she played grass roots as well. And I've got two boys who are 14 and 10 who have played from under sevens. And, you know, there's, I mean, it's hard for the coaches because, you know, they have full-time jobs, you know, they haven't got time to prepare and stuff like that, and sometimes it's just the parents who are taking it. But I think it needs to start earlier in kids' development about, you know, how to keep the ball first. And is it still, especially in England, is it still competitive? Are we still two results orientated at that young age where actually it's about let people express themselves, let them make mistakes, let them learn? I'm a big believer that, you know, there's this debate about, you know, whether to take the score lines out and stuff like that. Not for me, you've got to keep the score lines. But I think you've just got to encourage more the kids to, you know, get on the ball, believe in themselves, concentrate on the first touch, wait a pass, pass selection, you know, switch the player through balls, defenders, not just kicking it out, you know. So I mean, I watch a lot of grassroots as well. My three boys have been through the system. Parents shout from the sidelines, coaches say, don't do that again when you make a mistake. How do you deal with players when they make a mistake? So you've asked them to play out from the back, goalkeeper rolls on the ball, and he makes a mistake. How do you deal with that now? Well, I do under 21, so it's probably a little bit different because the results matter. So, you know, as a coach, you know, I like to play out from the back. Obviously, you know, I like to pass the ball. I like creativity, especially in the final third. So I never want to stop my forward-thinking players, not to take players on, not to do little one-sues or little sids or little creative stuff to get, you know, yourself a goal or an assist, whatever it is. But it's game management for me, especially at my level. So if I want my boys to play out, obviously they've got to have a good first touch. They've got to be comfortable on the ball. They've got to have composure on the ball. And the biggest thing is they've got to want the ball. You know, we've all played with players who, you know, hide, don't actually want to get on the ball. But they've got to want to get on the ball, make angles, create space, make the pitch bigger as they can. But it's playing at the right times. At my level, maybe not under 21's level. It's when you keep the ball, you know. So if you all want to look with two minutes to go... So decision-making is probably one of the biggest things. So once you've got the technical elements coming through the ages, you're coaching now not necessarily development, but actually coaching decision-making when to make what decision. Decision-making, yeah, correct. And for instance, if they make a mistake, it's obviously telling them, if they make a mistake, even though they probably know themselves anywhere, and then encourage them to, you know, make a better decision next time. So, for example, if it's the last two minutes of a game and you tune it up and you send a back splitting to get on the ball and he passes it straight to the striker and scores, hopefully next time it's two minutes. You know, from the end, he's going to squeeze up and the keeper's going to kick it, you know, and they're going to squeeze in. So it's just decision-making. How hard is it? Everybody now wants to play like Guardiola. We saw how good Guardiola's Barcelona team was back in the day, possibly the best football inside that we've ever seen. Manchester City are trying to emulate that, trying to knock on the door of the noisy neighbours across the road, the red half of Manchester trying to emulate, you know, and their success. United didn't play like that back in the day, but the game was different. How difficult now is it to try and get that transition? Do you think of the clubs that aren't quite as good as Manchester City? Because everybody wants to be like Man City, but is it possible if you don't have the players with that skill set and is it worth persevering? I just think, obviously, your days at West Brom where you tried it and got relegated, is that acceptable in this day and age because you're playing good football? It's all about players. You know it. Manchester City have got unbelievable players, Barcelona have got unbelievable players, very technical. Obviously, Pep's got a way of playing. Can everybody do the same thing? Yes to an extent, but it's all about the players, the top notch players. Obviously Liverpool have got a high press, but good with the ball as well. People have different, you know, ways of wanting to play. I don't think anyone can play Pep Guardiola's way without working on it day in, day out, but at the end of the day, if you don't have the players, you cannot play that way. It's like, if I tried to play with my team, the way Pep tries to play, I won't be able to do it because the players first touch I'll let them down, the way I've passed I'll let them down, you know, they won't be composed on the ball like somebody like, you know, David Silver is and it just doesn't work. So it's all about the players for me. I mean, that's just my own opinion and football is all about opinions, isn't it? And everyone's got a different opinion, but to be like Man City or Barcelona, what would be your advice to coaches that have sort of these ideas that we want to play like this? You know, this is how we're going to play. You know, what would you say to those if you had a room of coaches, what would you say to those coaches to encourage them to maybe coach in a slightly different way at times? I think I'd encourage them to obviously look at your plays you've got and if you want to play playing out from the back or more of a possession game is identify who's your strongest and weakest players in your team and where you can actually play. So for example if you've got two centre halves probably weak on the ball then really you don't want them splitting and getting on the ball. So you might have to think about getting your full box wider and getting what if your two midfields are quite good on the ball maybe getting them on the ball earlier and bypassing the two centre halves and playing to your strengths and then playing from there and just telling centre halves, I know it's old school but play simply, you know, all you've got to do is head, tackle, as soon as you get the ball give it to your centre midfield player. I played with Spencer Pryor, Marta O'Neill was manager at Norwich at the time and he was like do not let Spenner have the ball. He was on our team, he's like let him edit, let him kick it and let him do whatever but do not give him the ball on the floor because he's going to give it to the opposition. To be fair, the same when I first went to West Bromkai Magsum was there and I remember we played at home and it was still nil and it was playing in midfield and the ball was, you know, knocking around we're keeping the ball and I passed it to Moro and Moro's just like booted it out of play for like a throwing stroke you know, right in the corner and then he scored for me and I remember coming into half time and Mega going Jono, Jono one thing you've got to know is we do not pass the ball to Moro all he has to do is head it and kick it and I remember thinking right, I better not pass to him anybody. I had to be incredibly successful you know, at West Bromkai as coach and now manager full term and he's actually playing out from the back so players do change, you know, they do change the present and just because you've not and I get this as a pundit an awful lot, just because you weren't that type of player doesn't mean you can't coach or describe things in a different way does it? Yeah, 100% and I think I knew what I was supposed to do, I just couldn't do it that was a problem. You're putting yourself down Mils, you were a top player mate you know what, but yeah going back to Moro you know, he's come into the coaching game, managing game and he's doing really well, probably one thing that people have said to me this year is that he's actually probably trying to play out too much so you know what I mean, fans are always going to moan when results are going the right way, you know Moro's not won a game for a few games so fans are always going to moan but yeah, you know, he was probably a no nonsense centre half head kicker but he likes his teams to play out from the back A few more questions just briefly now just walking on to coaching and coaches one or two crucial bits of advice that you can give to coaches now that you've learnt through all your experience with working with some of the best managers the best coaches and now coaching yourself and still young in all honesty those two golden nuggets of advice for up and coming coaches I think the biggest advice I would give to any up and coming coaches or grass roots coaches or even coaching the game is one simplicity of the session I think just when I've done my UEFA B UEFA A Mod 1, 2, 3, advanced UEFA award and a lot of it is just out there and you're thinking I've been a professional for 20 years and I've never seen anything like this you've got diagrams all over the place you know lines all over the place, numbers growing all over the place and it's like this isn't the real world so have your session plan keep it simple do it for 10 minutes and just do and that's enough isn't it so basically I make my sessions real simple simplicity is key for me so I might start with a warm up, a round door box might go into a bit of a passing technique drill into a possession drill then I'll take that possession drill whatever I'm working on into a small sided game or half pitch game but it always has got a meaning to it but it flows nice and quick everything simple is to the point I hate coaches who stop start, you're probably the same as a player I think that day and age is gone, I think you can just shout things actually walk into the session and speak to somebody individually just tell them a little point or speak in between sessions just quickly or after I think what I've seen just over the last four or five years of actually doing coaching badges and stuff like that is a lot of coaches stop and start like literally walk into the session every one minute, two minutes and you know what it's like as a player Milsie if you're doing a possession for six minutes you don't want to be stopped eight times in that possession drill you just want to go and play don't you and get a sweat on and work on things so I think that's the biggest thing, simplicity and maybe not as much stop stops dying that's brilliant, it's going to finish with a few quickfire questions if that's alright best kit you've ever played in a few? Yeah I've played in a few I think it's got to be you probably might back me up I don't know it's got to be wearing the England kit doesn't it you know what I mean I only played 18s and 21s I got in one full squad actually I don't know if you remember but when I looked at that question I didn't actually think of England kit I don't know why I just went to all the club teams alright when I was thinking about it last night when you sent me the questions over I was thinking quite a few it's my old York City kit when I first made pro because it always has a special place in your heart when you play your first professional game but I think it's got to be just wearing the England kit you know as a young kid you always dream of playing for your country you've experienced the world cup so you're one step ahead of me mate well I've got a Champions League though the funniest thing you've seen on the shining pitch the funniest thing I've seen is probably back when I first signed for United we were training out at the cliff the old training round and me, Wes Brown, a few of us were just pinging a few balls as you do like you mentioned earlier in the program and Alex Ferguson was talking to Kiddo in the middle of the park and Wes has just pinged on to me and it's just gone off point and it's it, Alex Ferguson right in the side of the head and everybody it was just like one of those moments where everyone just you know is in shock and Roy Keane was like and Ferguson just turned around and went what the hell kicked that ball and Wes was like that and then to be fair to him he was going mental for about two minutes and then everybody in the whole pitch just burst out laughing and even Alex Ferguson burst out laughing so I'd probably say that I thought you were going to say Steve McLaren's teeth when it came out I remember that day Steve McLaren had his teeth done didn't he I think you had one too many and there was like too many teeth in his mouth and they were like they were Hollywood's one of the first I forgot about that that was funny yeah Worst dress team mate well apart from you Milzy to be fair you're not too bad we've had a few boring dress that I've taken but not worst you're always safe mate always safe probably there's a few Karnie, terrible dresser you remember Jeremy I used to come in and like robe things Joseph Desiree job it was terrible probably I don't know if you were there with Dean Windas, Dean Windas was no but I've seen Dean a few times not the best I'm just trying to think anyone at West Brom it was quite bad it was quite safe there actually Karnie was probably the worst at West Brom and Fulham was decent quite direct London bro down the Kings Road down the Fulham Road all in the designer gear I'd probably say Karnie or Jeremy they were terrible dresses most underrated team mate that you played with that's a tough question underrated I'll tell you who is probably underrated and gets a lot of stick but I think he doesn't deserve he's probably Chris Brunt you know I played with him for three or four years actually a YT at Middlesbrough when I first went there and he got released and he went to Sheffield Wednesday and built his career from there but he has got a wand of a left foot maybe lacking a bit of pace but he's left foot I don't think I've seen much better than he's left foot I think he's very underrated I think West Brom fans probably a bit too hasty with him harsh on him especially the services given he's been there nearly ten years and on his day he can whip a great ball he can score free kicks, he can set goals up so he's probably one of the underrated players I've played with worst game plan and what manager prepared it worst game plan I remember playing Bansley away with West Brom I think we were third in the league, fourth in the league about January, February time it was the year we got lost in the playoff final and we were doing really well playing 4, 2, 3, 1, whatever you want to call it 4, 4, 4, 2 all the same in it, four missions and we decided to go three at the back and played it all season hadn't really worked on it and we were four in the down at half time not a good one to be fair to the manager he came in at half time and said the same hands up, my fault let's go back to second half alright, but we still lost the game this might be difficult best trainer one name, that's it that is a big one there's some good trainers around even you were quite a decent trainer you got to put Southgate up there as well he was an unbelievable trainer I probably have to go one key probably have to go standards if it was a passing drill you should have gone mad if it was a clutch let you down or if it was bobbling into you if it was a possession drill if you lost a ball you would be on you your standards were so high and I think it has to be worked in worst trainer a few of these at Middlesbrough I was only there for a year there was quite a few Massimo Macaroni was a bad trainer wasn't a great striker either maybe not I said that, not you but went in that bracket flaky, I'm sorry just trying flicks all the time and not doing the right things in training West Brom probably we had a guy called Boston Caesar I don't know if you remember him, left centre half in games actually decent but in training you'd think don't ever put him in the team but actually when he played he was actually quite solid yeah so not many bad trainers to be fair best player you ever played against tough question I'm gonna say it's either Zavi playing for England 21 against Spain or Paul Sculls they're not bad are they Paul Sculls as you know could hardly run pre-season was always at the back never did gym work so clever, you went to go tight you'd flick it round the corner you didn't get an area maybe spraying it all over the park you could score a goal and Zavi was just unbelievable very similar to Paul Sculls proudest moment in football everyone probably thinks it's the Champions League like we talked about earlier but it's actually winning the championship with West Brom so obviously the year before the start of that season I got named captain and then that season I played every minute of every game all 46 games just to play every single minute of every single game and not get injured is some achievement in itself and then to win it yeah well I actually played 55 games you're just showing off now but yeah I think that's the proudest moment because obviously I was named captain I wasn't too sure I wasn't too comfortable being named captain changed position a little bit to a bit more of a disciplined center midfield player and added a lot more responsibility and obviously you know what it's like the championship's a tough league it's not easy as everyone finds out it gets relegated so to win on the last game last game of the season against QPR waiting to lift that trophy was some feeling if you go back and play for just one coach throughout your whole career who would it be? it has to be Alex Ferguson didn't it you know it'd been nice to play for Alex Ferguson when I was a bit mature as a player you know between 25 and 30 and maybe after 250 games of experience so I'd probably say Alex Ferguson and just one last one have you ever used your name to get to the front of the queue or restaurant or anything like that 100% mate I do it every Saturday night fair play to you right thanks John you've been an absolute star really appreciate you thank you so much for joining us on the Coaching Manual podcast and good luck with all your coaching thanks Lindsay thanks very much to Jonathan for joining us for the first in the new season of the Coaching Manual podcast thanks to everyone for listening you can keep up to date with the Coaching Manual on social media follow us on Twitter at Coaching Manual or on Instagram and Facebook at The Coaching Manual go on the website with more content tools high quality coaching content and more essential resources thanks for listening and see you next time