 All right. Thank you, Athena. Sorry, I'm having some technical issues this morning. No, I am too. Okay. Well, I'm going to go ahead and get started. Sorry. Michelle, can we hang on for just a moment? Can you just give me, you know, Absolutely. Let me know when you're ready. Yep. Hi, Jennifer. Morning. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Yeah. We're all having technical issues. So we can just ask anybody in the attendees to please. Be patient with us. Yeah. Let's see. And. Okay. This is the most attendance we've ever had at a GOL meeting. So I'm, I'm going to just be happy about that for a moment. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Two years ago, we beat the record with six or seven. All right. We've been during a goals discussion too. I don't remember. Yeah. And just for those of you in the attendees, we're just dealing with a technical matter. So we'll be starting the meeting shortly. Thank you, Michelle. I'm all set. Thanks for your patience, everyone. Excellent. Okay. Great. Thank you. We have a quorum of GOL. So I'm going to start G. Council as well. Okay. Great. Excellent. So I'll first call this meeting to order and then I will do a sound check and then I will turn it over to Lynn to call the council meeting to order and we'll go from there. All right. So calling to order the November 30th meeting of the governance organization and legislation committee. So we will be ready to move through into chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public are able to access the meeting in real time via zoom or by telephone. So let's just start with Pat. Present. Mandy. Present. Excellent. Jennifer. Present. And Anika. Welcome, Anika. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning. All right. And Lynn, would you like to call the council to order? Yes. Given that we have a quorum of the council present, I'm calling the committee of the whole, which is a council meeting to get to order at 904. I'm going to check now with those counselors who are not members of GOL. And then as watch to see if others joined since I understand that they will be. So that includes myself and you can hear me and I can hear you and Kathy Shane. Yes, I'm here. Okay. And I am expecting. No, Pam Rooney. Here. Right there. And I am expecting others as well. Okay. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. So welcome everybody. This is a committee of the whole as Lynn indicated, and we are going to begin with a discussion of the town manager goals. The, we're going to do this a little bit differently than we would run a normal meeting. In that we're going to take public comment first. So that folks who are attending as well as we've received. Written comment, which I added to the packet last night. There are five written public comments related to the town manager goals. And then we'll proceed from there. And I do see that Alicia is in the audience. Quick. Okay, great. All right. I think she's being moved over now. She is. And if we could just quickly confirm that she can hear us and we can hear her when she comes in before we begin public comment. Please. Thank you. Alicia, can you hear us? Yes, I can. Thank you, everyone. Good. Thanks for joining us. All right. Excellent. So we will begin with the public comment in the audience. And I'll just read the public comment statement quickly. I'm looking, we have three people right now who have their hands raised. So if you would like to make public comment. And we'll have another public comment period. Later for items that are not related to the town manager goals. So please raise your hand now. If you wish to make public comment related to the town manager goals. And I also see that Andy has joined us. And Andy, can you hear us? And can we hear you? Yes, I can hear. Okay. Welcome. All right. So seeing that we have five hands raised right now. I am going to ask you to raise your hand. I'm going to raise my hand. I have five hands raised right now. I am going to allow up to three minutes. And I'm going to read the statement, public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of GEO. General public comments are allowed on matters within the jurisdiction of GOL residents are welcome to express their views. For up to three minutes. Based. On a matter raised during public comment. But we will be listening very closely. So I'm going to begin with John root. Welcome, John. All right. Now I'm unmuted. All right. Thank you. My name is John root. I live at 23 greenings drive and have been a resident of Amherst since 1983. I am speaking on behalf of the Amherst climate justice coalition. Of which zero waste Amherst is a member as former chair of the town's recycling and refuse management committee. I participated in creating the solid waste master plan that was submitted to the select board in 2017. This comprehensive document was applauded by the select board and accepted for consideration by them. But none of its major recommendations is yet to be adopted. I would like to urge the town to add the following to the town management committee. I would like to urge the town to add the following to the town managers. 2023 goals. Take steps necessary to change to a town contracted to refuse and recycling system. That would include both universal curbside compost pickup. And a pay as you throw fee structure. That would incentivize waste reduction. This proposal has been submitted by. ZWA. Our other municipalities. Implementing pays you throw. Have experienced immediate and dramatic declines in waste. We can expect that 30 to 40% fewer tons of garbage. We'll be hauled. From Amherst neighbors. Neighborhoods. To landfills or incinerators soon after its adoption. As I'm sure you are all aware of both unnecessary waste and consumption. Of nonessential food and non food items. Have huge impact on greenhouse gas emissions. Incentivizing waste emissions. With the pay as you throw fee structure. Would most likely achieve the most significant reduction of Amherst's carbon footprint. In our town's history. We are excited. That the bylaw proposal is moving along. In the town services and outreach committee. And that the town has been awarded a grant. By the DEP to get the ball rolling. By researching and drafting an RFP or RFI. Why, why should the implementation. Of this proposal be included in the town manager's goals. First, it is specifically requested. In the town's climate action. Adoption and resilience plan. Second, it is supported by the EC. AC and was specifically requested in EC. AC's most recent annual report. Third, our board of health has specifically requested that the town show. How it can move forward. On implementation of this program. Fourth, it has widespread support from a variety of organizations in town. The league of women voters, Hitchcock center, Amherst common share of food co-op. Nine member organizations of the Amherst climate justice alliance and statewide organizations. Such as the Sierra club and community action works. Have all endorsed the waste management policies that are being proposed. By zero waste Amherst. We hope to launch these changes in January of 2024. So the town manager would need to take action on several steps. Of the plan during 2023. Thanks so much for including this important zero waste. Program in the manager's 2023 goals. Moving toward zero waste as a big part of the new normal. I have also submitted a second letter on behalf of pollinate Amherst. Requested by the city council. I have also submitted a second letter on behalf of pollinate Amherst. Requesting that the creation of a plan to create pollinator habitat on town owned land as well as minimize insecticide use. Be added to the list of goals for the town manager in 2023. In recognition of the compelling needs to help pollinator populations that have been declining globally at an alarming and unsustainable rate. The Amherst town council unanimously passed. Pollinator resolution in June of 2020. The city of Amherst. The city of Amherst. The city of Amherst. Declaring Amherst to be a pollinator friendly town. This resolution was offered by pollinator Amherst and received the enthusiastic endorsement of a number of civic groups and other entities. The pollinator resolution was passed without discussion, but the town council has yet to create a plan to follow through with commitments pledged by the resolution. We look forward to working with the town manager and town manager. We look forward to working with the town manager and the town manager. We look forward to working with the town manager and protecting pollinator populations as models. In addition to contributing to the beautification of our town, following through with this pledge will help to cultivate an ethos of environmental responsibility and create civic pride in being part of a global effort to preserve environmental integrity and ensure they continue to have habitability of our precious planet. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. I do want to let Rob Mora, who is in the audience, know in case he is here for the bylaws that we'll be reviewing later, that's going to start around 10 if we're lucky here, Rob. So you're of course welcome to stay until then, but I just wanted to give you that information. So the next public comment we have is Felicia Mednick and welcome. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for setting such a welcoming tone. I'm Felicia Mednick and I'm commenting today on behalf of also the Amherst climate justice alliance and mothers out front and myself. I live at 137 state street in district one. And on November 27th, the Amherst climate justice alliance submitted climate goals for the town. Manager for 2023 and I urge you to add those goals again. And I'm here now to ask you to add the goal, as John just said, of creating a town contracted waste taller system that includes curbside compost pickup. Because I think changing to a contract with curbside pickup is the lowest cost and simplest solution to our zero waste taller problem. Almost all of the towns of our size or larger in western Massachusetts either provide in-house hauling or through a contract with a hauler. Only Amherst and North Hampton are outliers. I think it's time to change that. The change over to a town contracted system is far lower in cost and simpler than providing a trash trash hauling in house, which has been considered as an option. A national hauler would still do the hauling, but could be compelled via a contract to reduce waste, as John said, both by as a pay by throw system. And through incorporating universal curbside compost pickup. And as John said, the projection waste could be 40%, which is the lowest cost and simpler than providing a trash hauling system. And as John said, the projection waste could be 40%, which is significant. In addition to reducing waste in the present moment, we'd also be reducing its accompanying emissions, because less waste will mean less emissions afterwards. And we'd also reduce embedded consumption emissions, which are the emissions before, because when people pay as they throw, they tend to consume less. So less would be needed and made. And that would also make the change even more important because we generate huge amounts of takeout waste, most of which is or could be compostable. Towns that change to a town contract with a hauler require minimal staff responsibility. So staff in the accounting department would have to send out waste hauling bills to residents, perhaps quarterly with our water bills. And they would also need to be someone, like the DPW staffer who would have contract compliance added to his or her duties. But once the startup period passes, I think we'll wonder why we didn't do this long ago. So I hope that we can make this sensible climate friendly and low cost proposal endorsed by so many local groups get into the town manager goals. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your comments and thank you for joining us. Okay, next is Susan Morello. Good morning. My name is Sue Morello. I live at 86 High Street and I am a former member of the Amherst recycling and waste management committee on which I serve for six years. I'm speaking today on behalf of zero waste Amherst. I'm asking that you please add to the 2023 town manager goals. The proposal for a town contracted hauler, including curbside compost pickup. One question about this seems to have been nagging the town. Does going zero waste reduce our climate emissions in a major way? The answer to that is a resounding yes. As with most climate action plans are 2017 Amherst greenhouse gas inventory on which the current CAARP was based underrepresented our waste related greenhouse gas emissions. There are problems with how local inventories track emissions that result in the omission of the significant contribution of waste and consumption to global climate change. The main problem that we see with accounting is our inventory leaves out the embedded emissions from the production and consumption of our food and our stuff, which are made around the world and misses the global climate impact of agriculture, extraction, manufacturing, processing and delivery of products used in Amherst. The carbon footprint of some of the world's biggest cities is 60% larger than previously estimated when all the products and services a city consumes are included. The proposal currently before the town council is predicted to reduce our waste dramatically by 40%. Both by using a pay as you throw incentive system and by diverting our food scraps plus other compostable items to compost. I urge you to include this proposal in the 2023 town manager goals for a better, more sustainable Amherst. Thank you very much. Thank you, Susan. All right, next we have Madeline. I can't see the full last name. So Madeline Charney. Yes, welcome. Thank you so much. And I want to appreciate all of you for your very dedicated work in keeping our town so vibrant. So my name is Madeline. I live at 40 Madeline Charney, 42 Cherry Lane. I've been a resident for over 13 years. I've been a resident for over 13 years. I've been a resident for over 13 years. I'm a resident member of common share food co-op, which is coming to our town. And just to be really clear, some people are still referring to it as the former name, but our current name is not Amherst food COVID. It's common share food co-op. And we early on voted to endorse the bylaw proposal requiring a town waste hall contract that includes universal food that we have this to the town managers 2023 goals. The mission of a common share food co-op is very aligned with this proposal as we aim to draw together the diverse communities of our town and the local area with inclusive space that supports food justice and local resilience. And as far as reducing waste, I heard a statistic once that I found so staggering that in the US every day, there's enough food to fill the Rose Bowl football stadium. That image just really sticks in my mind. So reducing our food waste composting locally and using that compost to amend our soil, sometimes called black gold are vital components of a resilient food system. Another board member Monica Garcia recently went to Martin's farm with the zero waste Amherst folks and came back really excited about this possibility for local industrial scale compost processing that would enable our town to advance a circular economy. Opt in programs like voluntary composting in your backyard or voluntary curbside, they're great, but there would only make a very small dent in reducing our food waste. So we need a program that is universal, picked up right at your curbside and goes to a local plant like Martin's that would result in significantly reducing our waste and producing soil. And I'm also a very avid gardener. I'm married to a former farmer. So I really appreciate the importance of amending our soil. The soil is the food of our food. So let's move on this now. While interest is high with a lot of organizations on board and expecting progress right away, let's make it a town manager goal please for 2023. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. All right. And it looks like we have one more public comment. And this is Elaine. Berger Berger. Welcome. Thank you. Yes. Hi, Elaine Berger. And I won't keep you too long since basically everybody else has said the same thing. I've lived at 19 Woodlop for 20 years and I've been learning about zero waste after having been a steadfast and serious recycler for probably twice as long. And I'm also on the steering committee at the League of Women Voters. So I've tried to spread the word to the League of what's been happening with zero waste. And I'm just here to pretty much reiterate what others have said so well. And essentially if it can be put on the town manager's list for 2023, it seems the proper time since some of the initial research has been done. All the systems are in place for this to happen. It's really a matter of continuing to look into it, find some funding or find the haulers that would work. So yeah, thank you. I don't want to take more time because I think it's been said very well and we appreciate all your efforts. Thank you, Elaine. Okay, I'll make one last call for a public comment. All right. So we're going to move on. I'm going to take a tip from the regional school committee. They, I attended their meeting last night and they show their written public comments on the screen so that folks have a moment to read them. And so I'm going to do that for us as well. We have five written public comments. So I'm going to go through them. I'm going to go through them. I'm just going to scroll through them. For counselors, particularly who are here who do not have access to our SharePoint. This might be helpful. So Mandy, would you like to pull those up or would it, would you like for me to do that? Mandy is our. You'll need to do that because the way you put them in SharePoint is hard for me to access. No problem at all. So I'm going to go through them. I'm just going to go through them. Share capabilities. Let me just see here. All right. And so we have some comments that are, we're also reinforced with. Verbal comment this morning. So I will bring them up just to. To, to just reinforce those quickly. Okay. Let's see here. Can everybody see my screen? Okay. Great. So this is. Yes. Hang on, Pat. All right. So yes. We have Sue who also wrote a written public comment. So we've got that one. And let's see here. We have Elaine Elaine also spoke. And again, these are all available if you want to read them in our packet. And then we have. Number three here. Alicia also spoke. Thank you all so much for writing in written comment and for also coming today to speak. All right. And then we have. This came from Lydia Vernon Jones. I do not believe that Lydia. And, and so Lydia Vernon Jones and Julia. Julian Heinz wrote this one. We want to have a chance to look at that one. Pat, are you okay? Do you want to check in? You're kind of frustrated. Okay. In our packet. I appreciate public comment more than you can imagine. I've read these. I've read them. If you are in the people who are coming to the meeting have access to it. I don't like my time being wasted right now rereading what I've already read. That it is, there are enough things in this meeting that we need to get to. And this is not about disrespect for public comment, but adding an element that just is time consuming without a real purpose that I can see. I appreciate your comments. And I hear you. I'm chairing the meeting. So this is how I've chosen to chair the meeting. For this particular matter. We only have one more to get through. And I do take this really seriously that we have our public comment, particularly because we have counselors here. Who don't have access to our SharePoint. So we have a public comment here. And we have a public comment. Comments generally comes into our email. So I understand it's your decision, but it's a decision that's wasting my time. Okay. Well, I apologize that you feel that way. All right. So we have one more public comment here. Let me just check it. Okay. So John has already spoken. And so John also wrote in. So I'm going to stop my share. Take a pause. So we've gotten through our public comment. That was both our verbal and our written public comment. And now we're going to open this up for a council discussion. I did have one counselor comment that came in from Shalini who was not able to be here today. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Excuse me. I'm going to also share that. Because Shalini has asked that I share her public comment. With the group here. So here we go. Okay. And it looks like she was reinforcing the implementation of town contracted refuse and recycling system. Also the implementation of programming for youth, which is a way for youth to guide the process. And then a look at entry level positions in town jobs, including schools and how to make our pay equitable. So those were her three. And so before we have a full, yes, Jennifer, please. And if we had, you know, emailed some goals, I think directly to Lynn, then Lynn has those and we don't have to state those here. Lynn, how would you like to handle that? There was only one counselor that emailed me. That is in fact, Jennifer, and I would suggest she restate them here. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. So I think what we want to do is quickly just give a little bit of a framework for what we've been working on. We talked about this at our council. There's a new document in the packet that was a second draft. That was a draft. That was a draft that was a second draft. That Mandy has worked on. And so I am going to pass it over to Mandy to frame that for us. And Mandy, if you wouldn't mind just sharing kind of overall globally, what we've been discussing briefly, and then walk us through the draft. That would be excellent. You're muted. Before I share. I'm splitting the, the previous method has been to have town manager policy goals and town manager management goals and GOL in a few meetings discussed splitting those up into town manager goals and council policy priorities. With the recognition that the town manager policy goals in previous documents have really been a showing of some council policy priorities since the council is the policy chief policy center. And so these drafts have been an attempt to, to do that separation. And they have, when I've done these drafts, I've attempted to do the separation and keep things sort of parallel between the various policy priorities. So there is a lot of deletion in that it's not that I've been doing the draft. I decided that had been completed or was not a priority or anything like that. I tried to keep sort of as much of the deletions as related to what can the council accomplish and what should the councils, if the council is setting policy priorities, what would that wording look like and how could that be parallel amongst the policy priorities. And then figuring out what a manager goal to accomplish those policy priorities might look like. And that was just a draft. I tried not to put my own sort of thoughts onto each of these policy priorities into effect in it. So, so it looks very red. Because a lot of it gets deleted if you're going to recognize that it's a council priority as a policy. I think that's a little easier to explain because a lot of the stuff that was that one, well, I'll take climate action, for example, because that one I think is a little easier to explain in some sense. The one, two, three, four, five and six that were all in there. Really related to what the town manager can do. Not what the council can do, which is why they were immediately, why I deleted them in this draft, not because they're not good, but because we don't want the manager to potentially do them, but that it's not a council action. And so what I tried to do is come up with language that says, what, what does the council do when it has a goal? It would prioritize legislative, regulatory, fiscal and other actions for that goal. Then when we moved to, and I can, I'm not going to go through all of these. When I moved to putting the policy goal into the management goal into the management goals related to those policy implementations, I did this policy implementation here, which is the managers expected to implement the policy priorities of the town council. It lost a lot of specifics in doing that. And that's one thing GOL was unsure of in terms of, well, if we're trying to make it clear that here's our policy priorities as a council, how do we simplify the management goal review? And all without then moving everything directly over and still having a checklist. The GOL has not fully talked about whether the checklist is needed, whether you could put different objectives under this policy implementation that would, you know, sort of mimic what was in the policy, for example, climate action, the CCA and all of that or not. We started talking a little bit about that, but we didn't get too far in how might that look or would that be possible and all of that. So that was sort of the mirror between them. And I think that's all, I guess I want to say right now on it, because we really need council and GOL discussion on what they would look like. And I'll leave this up. I intend to be able to type some changes in as we go along today, potentially to create another draft based on discussion. Thank you, Mandy. And so I see this in two parts first from the council, the direction that we're going in. And I would love to hear feedback on that in terms of this proposal to split them out the way that Mandy has presented. And then of course talking more about the content that we want to include. So if you have a comment right now with respect to the splitting of the way that we're proposing to split this, please make your comment now. And I'm going to start with you, Jennifer. Thank you. So I'm sorry, I was not able to be at the last meeting. So I apologize. This was discussed. So I'm just a little unclear that we will get to specific. You know, goals. And I don't know if that will be in a council retreat. I saw something written about that. So I just wanted that we, you know, I just wanted to, you know, I just wanted to, you know, This is the example like the proposed waste hauler bylaw. We were told that that staff time was, which I understand was already, you know, allotted or like the current calendar year. So it would have to be a town manager goal. So that the town manager could plan and. You know, allocate staff time and resources to carry out that goal. So that's the kind of, you know, the kind of goals listed that we want to see happen. If it just says we want to. Achieve our climate action goals. Then that leaves it up. The town manager decide which goals. So at some point, I just want to clarify, we will get specific. That's my question. I'm going to ask Lynn to speak to that. If, if you could, Lynn. It's certainly possible that we should, we would have a retreat on town council goals. I think that's about all I would say here regarding that. Okay. Cause my other comment would be. To speak to the reorganization. Yes, please go ahead. You're next on the. I actually liked the reorganization. I agree with Jennifer that. When we actually sit here and talk about town council. Goals or priorities, if you will. I think it's going to be a very long stretch to ask the council. To be adopting those as we move into by the end of December. By December 19th. I think that's a good question. But as long as we're adopting them with a. Understanding that we can add and delete from them. I think we can still understand that it's a, it's a living document. It's not a stale document. Okay. I am concerned about some of the detail. That gets lost by the redlining. And I wonder if. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that in this case, the town council priorities has been a way of keeping track. Of some of the work that the council has done. Some of the priorities that have already been set. Some of the documents that already exist. And it is a, it. Somehow I feel it should be referenced in the document. Okay. Whether it's. As an added footnote or. As an added footnote, the City Council has now had an emphasis placed on the following. And understand that that would. Be a way where we can make additions and changes. And even deletions, we've accomplished something. Which I know we will. But so that's one piece. And then the other piece, when I look at this, I also, and I need to spend a little more time looking at it. I also look at how to translate this into how, And this is where I think some of the detail is also useful because each of you have now gone through one at least one time evaluating the town manager and those comments and those examples of things that we've already passed as policy or as, you know, we voted on in some manner or another become guidelines for all of us to think about the accomplishments. I also, and I certainly don't speak for the town manager, but it gives him a sense of where we're placing our focus with a little more detail than the climate action objective statement here. I think more than anything, I'm, I don't want to lose some of that keeping track of stuff that was under the goal, the previous set of policy goals. Thank you. Thank you, Lynn. Kathy. I'm here. I'm just trying to collect my thoughts having just heard Jennifer and Lynn. I, I appreciated the suggestion for this structural change, but I found myself wanting to under policy start to do some of what I think when was just saying our policy goals. I think I wanted to wordsmith some of them because I didn't think we'd had a full discussion of them. And I'll focus on two just to try to give an example if you scroll down Mandy to the four capital investments. The four capital. When I went over to the town manager goals, one of the things in my comments about the four capital things is I thought the council need to revisit the goals we'd set, because we had instructed him, and I knew this needed a discussion when. Because we had instructed that the best place for the fire station was where DPW currently is. So it meant we couldn't move on either of them till we found a DPW new location. And I wanted to revisit that decision because by the council, because as long as that's the decision, our town manager has been actively looking for a piece of land for DPW, as opposed to saying where else could the fire station be. So I found the lack of detail then on the town manager one troubling because I found it useful to have laid out what we hope to get done over a year's time in various areas and putting them in something called policies, having a new section and carry out the policies of the of the town council wasn't enough. I was going to have to add what specifically went into then a very long, a very long section. So I ended up not being sure this was helpful. But I'll just stop there because I actually started editing the edits, and I seem to have forgotten to share them, which is just as well because I wanted to have this larger one. And my other comment on the actual goals for the town manager is, I found many of us did what I found myself doing that there were two distinct areas under each of his goals. And we wanted to rate them separately, so that we ended up with a rating that was on and I'll use staffing now, we thought he was a good leader, but we thought maybe there were issues were staffing, you know, on retention. So I found some of them should we have split them into two or we should we allow us to rate it so that's a long winded way of saying is I missed, missed the detail in the town manager performance goals, and I didn't think going to the simplified council overview and saying, and then he just carries out these policies was enough. I think we just lost it because how would we know if he carried out the policies, if we didn't somewhere say underneath this list or these specific actions. That's it. So I, I feel like it's taking on too much since we have to do the goals by January so Lynn you just said we're not going to come to full agreement. And so I'm not, I'm wondering whether we should go back to actually focusing on the performance goal document. Without all the redlining and everything that's been taken it off, and I'll stop there. Thank you. Thanks. Several people have spoken to some of the concerns that I had I, I understand and, and think that breaking into policy versus versus performance goals is, is not a bad thing. I think it could provide some pretty good structure. I also was though a little concerned about how we lose all of the detailing under under the, the policy goals where understanding from the town manager's perspective. I'm going into the next new year here are the here are the primary objectives of town council, one of them, one of them is zero waste management. And if I know that ahead of time if I know that rolling into the new year, I can staff appropriately. I got concerned when I saw, for instance, what's on the page here, climate action objective. Legislative regulatory fiscal and other actions that that says to me that maybe in June somebody comes forward with a, with a proposal and a any motion to vote on that says we're going to enact. Or we're going to send out an RFP for waste haulers. Well, that's, that's June, which means that the town manager hasn't. I mean, that's the first legitimate action that the town council has in, in focusing on climate action. So, but that's what they doesn't happen till June, the town manager would not have staff in place. And by December, very likely wouldn't have, you know, a contractor under contract. So having more fleshed out objectives, or the town manager to build on at the beginning of the year to me makes sense. The other thing that that kind of concerning understanding the, the evaluation process, if we went to, if we go to the policy goals. I mean, excuse me, the performance goals for the town manager. We now have all of the implementation of our policy in one small item. So item number three now is policy implementation. So he gets graded on items one through seven one through six. And only one of them is actually implementing our policy goals. So that that concerns me a little bit. I'd like to hear more discussion on that. Thank you. Thanks, Pam. Andy. I think you're muted Andy. Yeah, I know I was trying to find where the unmute on was I apologize for the delay. I really appreciate the discussion that's taken place so far. And I really endorse the idea of trying to divide the policy goals from the town manager performance goals. And I'm not going to get into the expectations, because I do think that they're different issues. And I'm not going to get into detail on specific goals and we haven't I think that's good, even though I did think a lot about public comment, because several people who run this call, including myself, are co sponsors of the bylaw that is doing exactly what the speakers were talking about. And I was trying to know I was thinking as I was listening to them that we sort of neglecting the fact that that's already a piece in progress, and one that we're very committed to. But I thank the people, those who offered their comments. As far as policy goals though. I think that we need to figure out what our capacity is in our capacities both the council's capacity and the manager and staffs capacity, because there are limitations. And as we keep adding, we need to be careful to not add policy goals, without having some process to think about how much time it is going to take in order to work through that policy matter. And what our priorities are within the various options, and that just having a group of counselors propose something and automatically make it a policy goal without having that discussion. I think we're doing a disservice to ourselves, and we're doing a disservice to our management. And that we're making them, we're overburdening ourselves and we're making it less likely that we're going to get a smaller group of things done well by trying to do everything and then getting it watered down because we're not setting priorities. So, I would urge that we think about how that would take place. And of course, there's the need for flexibility which has been spoken to. And I understand that I think that has to be part of the discussion. As far as the time manager goals. The key piece to it to think about is to take all reasonable and practical steps to implement policies that have been identified by the council, and not to become so specific that there's no flexibility there, because what will change as they need to go through the year is, is the process develops, and is other needs come along so I would just want to make sure that we have the necessary flexibility that allows for decisions to be made during the year is to make the steps that can be taken and that should be taken to move process along. So, thank you, those are my comments. Thanks Andy. Anika. I am still marinating on a lot of this and I do appreciate the other public and bounce or comments I really thank you Andy I really the word that's sitting with me also is just the need for flexibility and so I do appreciate the separation as well as share concern of perhaps losing a certain specifics. We know we certainly have we do not need any more examples globally or locally. I do emphasize the need, you know just to be able to adjust and my concern is sometimes when things are so specific. We do not leave room for other, you know, new ideas that could come and that could actually maybe be more effective or efficient than what we're already looking at. And so I'm, you know wondering what, what are their ways to either like separate and maybe condense more but also leave room for, you know, real life and growth locally and globally without being confusing and was still not was still being able to use consideration for staff time and what those changes could result in so those are my thoughts just for at this time. Thank you Anika. I just I wanted to check in with Alicia before I come back to Jennifer and Kathy. Alicia did you want to make any comments with respect to the to the reorganization of the goals. Thank you Michelle. So, I'm more just came here because I wanted to offer some of my suggestions for content of the town manager goals. I'm not particularly opposed to the reconstruction but I just hadn't previously considered it so I'm still just thinking through all the things. Absolutely. Okay, great. Thank you. Okay Jennifer. I had a question before I guess I'm kind of reiterating what was said but I think to, we need to get somewhat specific in that the way I read this was like we're asking the town manager whether you know it's this town manager, you know, this document holds, whoever is the town manager saying we want you to work on climate action, but within that you can decide what you would like to do that seems almost feels like it's abrogating some council responsibility and giving it to the town manager so we definitely have, I believe need to get more specific in what we would like to see done. You know, then, again, can, you know, could one climate action goal be worked on or two, when there might be 15 he can't work on, you know, a town manager couldn't maybe implement all 15 but it's just to me it just feels like we're pushing too much control and abrogating some responsibility just to leave broad policy areas we would like a town manager to work on. I think what does get too specific, and I actually didn't realize until this conversation that I guess the previous council had actually said the fire station must meet must be at the DPW facility. It means if we're looking for a new fire station that we shouldn't probably tie the town manager's hands with that level of specificity. But I think the waist taller bylaw was a prime example where the town manager said, are, you know, we introduced it in the middle of the year or play this full this year. If you want me to, you know, the staff to work on it needs to be a goal for the next year. So we really have to articulate that by implementing working on evaluating implementing that bylaw as a specific goal or it's not going to happen. And that's why I think we need to have some specificity, because actually the town manager has asked that we give him that specificity so he can plan his staff time and resources. Thanks. Jennifer, Kathy. I want to give another example to underscore what Jennifer just said I think we're leaving, you know, it's the problems we've got two documents now. So putting a lot of specifics under our general policy thing, and then saying under his just look at what we listed doesn't seem to have accomplished very much. We're talking about putting some specifics in to his goals. And I totally agree with what Andy said, when you look at some of the goals we've set in the past. Because many of them could not all happen in one year. You know, so it was making progress but to not give any specifics under the goals in the policy areas is to actually leave it wide open and Mandy, if you try to write all of the specifics under policy implementation. What have we done. I mean, I, we've just created five more categories of town manager ratings, and I don't think that is successful so I'm just, I'm torn between the structure, but the specific I wanted to give. I think it was about yesterday. I think it was yesterday in finance that we have put in place a terrific new health and safety program called Cress. And we have said, during the next year, we want to really figure out how well it's working, we want to look at what its staffing needs are we want to. A series of things and we cross reference well that would be in the town manager goals it's not necessarily a finance guideline but it is it in it informs what we should be doing in FY 25, you know the following year. So, we lose that specific, unless we put it in to the town manager goal, I wouldn't put it in to the council policy goals so that's where you've got two documents working here. And I need to separately think of what do I think is achievable by the town manager that we would like some we want to rise raised to the level of a priority by mentioning it. That would be my example of community health and safety. I don't mind the general policy goal for the, that the council has set, but over in the town manager, I want a specific set of items underneath that the other example that where has been removed. And we kind of didn't. It was in the wrong place when I looked at goals but we have a long for a long time said residents in the council would like to know what the plan is for our conservation areas, but also for our roads and so we know we can't get it all done in any one year. So we've removed those specifics on a I don't know whether we've ever had a plan on which conservation areas with athletic fields. Are we going to be working on when are we going to be working on them so we've talked about building maintenance, but we removed the sentence. It was under community engagement developing a future road and sidewalk repair available to the public. I felt like it that should always have been up in infrastructure management when I was looking at it, but now it's completely gone. And so, so I would move it up so that's where I was bouncing between a general policy goal, and then seeing what had been deleted, and a few areas disappeared altogether, which is why I highlighted the four capital projects we did give Jennifer way back to those kind of marching orders, which is why we have seen a continuous search for P it in the old goals it was find us a piece of land for DPW and the town manager has been doing just what. And it wasn't just us it was the select board before us. You know I mean this is like a forever and it came out of Lynn's original committee on DPW and fire so the question is, should we as a council. We can do that with Paul. So, so I just, I'm missing the specifics in several areas where setting, just saying policy goals. So it would be in climate, it would be in health and safety. I hadn't done it so so that is, I'll stop there because I didn't give enough thought to what I, since the redlining made it hard to me to see where the detail had disappeared. And I had to figure out the old detail wasn't necessarily what I wanted, but that I just, I gave a few examples, and it was the concern of this global and just do our policy goals because then Paul can say, I've been working on all of them. And we haven't given specifics, which, which I think is is just stepping away from our responsibility. And just, I want to build. So now if you have particular comments that are substantive and that are particular to any one of these items this is a good time to talk about that now as well. Yeah, I'm hearing a little bit of a, of a trend, which I would also support and that is that the specifics of the highest priorities or particular projects that we feel are important to go into the, into the town managers performance standards, if you will. And so I think, I think that's maybe where we can recapture the details of what many people want to see. If we're talking again now up again going back to Lynn's comment about evaluating the town manager though, when we have six performance standards, and only one of them is is policy implementation. I think the council needs a conversation about. Are those are those other performance standards for the manager. More or less important than our priorities, and I don't want to be facetious about that but infrastructure management and maintenance, for instance, because it's sitting right here on the page. I guess I guess his implementation of that goal. I'm not sure where how that meshes with with our policy goals. So, I'm going to, you know, think about how do we, how do we pull details over to the manager. And I'll stop there because it's starting to go in a circle but I like the idea of more specifics going into the town manager performance section. Mandy, I want to give you a chance to maybe respond to some of these structural pieces. If there's something that you wanted to respond to there, or would you like me to go on with the I'll respond quickly with just you've seen some of my typing is potential options as we go through and I hear these conversations as to what it might look like. These are just examples of what it might look like. I would take this back after the meeting and fully flesh it out. And my other comments, I can wait in line four because they're substantive. Thank you. Okay, Andy. I just, there's been a lot of talk about giving a lot more specificity in the town manager portion goals of what it is that we want to have happen. And I guess I'm uncomfortable with that. Because I think that you end up tying the hands of management by doing that. There are a number of goals that he's working on. And what you want the manager always to be able to do is to adapt to current circumstances and seize opportunities. If a grant is coming along, or new legislation has been passed that provides an opportunity or limits not opportunity. You want the manager to be able to change what is going on to take advantage of what's being offered and to not pursue things just because they're in the goals. If there's been barriers that have been thrown up. And so I just warn us about dangers of specificity and because we hire a manager who is extremely talented at being able to think through a process and think about how something can be done and what can be done. And we want him to do that. And we don't want to be so specific that we're managing the over managing the manager. And I think that's the danger for some of this conversation is going. Thanks Andy Lynn. Oh, I see. Okay. You know, I'm sorry I just heard a gunshot literally right outside our house. So, the, my two comments, one is under, I'm now going on to specific areas. Okay. Under infrastructure management and maintenance. One of the things that has now been discussed at least twice in the finance committee is the resurrection of a committee that looks at properties the town owns, but are abandoned. In other words that we're not using and implementing or re instituting a committee that looks at that with the goal of getting receiving recommendations as to what would we do with those properties, because the council, then could look at that and that could include even the anticipation of the fact that we would not be using Wildwood, and is there other use or other thoughts about how that property might be used to achieve other town goals. So, I somehow or another in that goal, and I'm not going to try to wordsmith it for you manager. I just want to make sure that we include something about the existing or soon to be existing vacant town properties, and how they will be reused or disposed of. There's some fun. Okay, my other comment is really about a goal down lower. But it's actually up. It's up with the council goals. And I, I think that it's, it's the one regarding the higher ed institutions. And while I believe that we are the council is clearly part of setting the tone for relationship with our higher ed institutions. I think this really starts treading into the issue of who actually negotiates agreements, and that is the town manager. And I look at this and I'm not clear. What would be the policy the legislation, I'm going to go back to the words that have been used elsewhere. And so it's a question as to where are if this is among our goals. What would be our role, or do we move this back to the management goals, and this is not saying I don't think this is an important goal, I think it is. I just think it's very important to tease out what is our role as a council in relationship to this goal. Thank you. And I just will quickly add that I, I agree that we should tease that out and we, we talked about this in finance committee yesterday. And I would like to, for us to think about what is a management goal here in the partnership agreements that the manager is negotiating and then what is the council responsible for what can the council take on with respect to the relationships. And with respect to working with our delegation, any legislation and those pieces that really fall under our umbrella. So I certainly want to support that. I also want to let the planning folks know who are in the audience that will probably we're going to stay with this for about 10 more minutes max and then we're going to move on to the other items. So also giving us an idea of that. I do want to go to Alicia, because she indicated that she has some substantive suggestions she'd like to make and she hasn't spoken yet so I'm going to go to Alicia and then we'll go back into order. Thank you, Michelle. Also, I just think I was and still am slightly confused about what's happening. And I think I misunderstood your question earlier. So I appreciate you coming back to me. I. So, when I said I wanted to add specific suggestions for specific details. I guess that is against the restructuring because I wanted to add more detail to the things. So I'm not really sure. I just think I just wasn't coming into this meeting thinking about the restructuring. So that's why I'm slightly confused. And also because I didn't have like a huge issue with the way that it was done this year. And I thought it was helpful when having these larger, broader categories to have specific examples of the expectations within those categories in terms of managing ideas and topics. Because again, there's like so much that can fall under each category that isn't even listed. And so how do we manage what we're exactly looking at and how would we approach it if all of us come up with different things that we're looking at to measure or evaluate. And so I think in terms of synchronicity, like synchronicity, so that we're all talking about sort of similar things and evaluating on like similar measure, I think it's helpful to have certain details and certain things. I guess I thought and I'm still learning as someone new to town politics in general. But I guess my assumption was that the town manager goals that document was crafted of expectations of the town council has of the town manager. Mostly based off of things that have already been voted upon the town council and have passed. And so we're like looking to see those things go through or things that we have talked about as a council and generally agree that we want to see move forward. So I thought that that was the idea so I'm just slightly confused by the conversation to be honest because those were my assumptions so I just thought like hey I'm going to come in. Ask to add some things that I would like to see added underneath each category. So just to be transparent and also state my confusion to what you asked me earlier. I just came because I wanted to see two things added underneath one which had a lot of public comment in the holler reform I wanted to see that added under the climate action goals. Because you know we were told that that was the way to approach the situation. And so mainly that is why, because we had a different original approach so that's why I'm asking for that right now. And the second thing that I wanted to see added was the town managers working with the APD on creating the proactive anti racist department. And because that was something that just passed and so I would like to see at least some different ways that we're looking at that and monitoring that. And I also would be interested in a conversation at seeing if we can add other departments are the beginning of thinking and making plans for other departments to be doing the same. So that's why I came here and I apologize if I added any other confusion to the conversation. Thank you. Thank you, Alicia and I was really encouraged when Paul suggested that we add the anti racism throughout the departments at a previous meeting and so I want to support those suggestions as well. Okay, so I see Mandy and then Jennifer and then Kathy. I think somehow my ordering went off Kathy, I think maybe your hand was raised before Jennifer's but maybe it knows who's in you. I don't know. Anyway, we'll go Mandy and then Jennifer and Kathy and then I want to check in with Lynn about next steps and timing and then we'll wrap it up. It's really quick because I know Joel has to get to stuff from CRC that's necessary. A few things and some comments and then some thoughts on my own regarding the priorities themselves. So I think as we potentially move to this method we could maybe add sub parts to the evaluations of the town manager people have been worried for the ratings like the writing can be all at once right because we have a rating section and then we have like a comment section and we could potentially add ratings for if there are four or five numbers on some of these which there were in the past right. So we have the potential to add ratings for each of these or particularly for the policy implementation one for each of the policy priorities of the council is just a sub part so that they could see ratings separately. We thought of later but that's one potential solution. And then in terms of specifics the council actions should be in the council policy priorities so I'm thinking like if waste hauling is a bylaw adoption and we are aiming to adopt a bylaw. We could potentially put that as part of a policy priority for the council under climate action say rental registration bylaws another one that might be able to go under community health and safety. And things like that if we foreseen actual council actions that we want to complete in the next year we could actually list some of them under the council policy priorities and then manager actions could potentially be listed into the policy implemented thinking of how to potentially do, you know, under this policy implementation goal the manager side of that if there's certain things we want the manager to concentrate on CC a crest, you know, waste hauling can't be done sort of until we've got a bylaw is my understanding but things like that. One of the things I would like to potentially see in there is I looked at the community health and safety goal that's currently there and council doesn't have a lot to do with coven so I don't necessarily see it as a council priority versus. I don't know whether it even needs mentioned anymore as coven becomes sort of endemic instead of pandemic. So I think maybe rethinking what that means in terms of a manager goal or community health and safety in general. And that's one of the ones I wondered if the Ford major capital investments should be expanded. And, you know, Kathy was talking about revisiting the fire location but I wondered if you know we've been talking about playing fields. There's been mentions of senior centers there's been mentions of various other capital projects that the councils never really talked about it's a big talk, right. But I wonder if we should be expanding that for major capital investments policy priorities to engender a more general capital major capital investments not focused necessarily on those four. I would like to see for housing affordability focusing on home ownership and focusing on moderate income in general. I have the same question about higher ed relationships it's been in both now. And I think the council struggling with where it should be. And it in this situation it might be better in the management side instead of the policy priority side. I wanted to come at one last on the anti racist lens language. If we're going to put it in. I would want to see it in as a general policy of moving the town towards an anti racist lens, not focusing on any particular department I think it's that as I said, when we were debating it last time that we need to do it holistically not. I believe the manager to decide which department or how they want to implement it and I don't want to get into a big conversation right now but I would push back on identifying specific departments within the policy goals on that one. Okay, and I appreciate you saying not to get into a big conversation on that now. However, I just want to point out that if we are trying to take some of these actions that the council has taken. This is one of the actions that the council has taken right the council voted to ask the town manager to work with the APD. And that's not unlike other actions that we're talking about creating specific language for so I think we just have to think about that, like, holistically, regardless of how we might feel, you know, about a particular item. So just want to add that. Okay, so I see Jennifer and Kathy and Alicia. Go ahead Jennifer. Yeah, I just wanted to just again reiterate that in addition to I was also one of the counselors that asked that the waste taller bylaw implementation be part of the town manager's goals for the next year but I just wanted to say again that, you know I know with Andy's comments, you know which I appreciate that we there's a need for balance, but many times the town manager has said something is not in his specific goals, so it's kind of not on his to do list so I've definitely heard since the council request from request from the town manager for us to be specific, at least in some of our goals because that's how he plans his time. And, you know, again, what how things unfolded with the waste taller bylaw is a good example of that you know he where he specifically requested that that be on next year's goals if we wanted to see that happen. So, so so my, you know, continuing to return to that theme really comes from what I've heard this town manager say in the first year I've been on the council. Thanks, that's it. Thanks Jennifer yeah I also heard that Kathy. I want to make quick comments because Mandy's trying to capture everything one way on waste taller Mandy as you said we haven't yet voted the bylaw in, but under the town manager section which is say, if, if the council moves a bylaw. It becomes a this year action goal so you could write it in a way that that hedges it, you know, assuming that will be good, you know so you to to interact it. I wanted to second Lynn's concern I hadn't really because I think of these as two documents, but the last section of the council one which is around the relationships with you mass and Amherst. I think I would just delete it because I think it is, it's confusing it's complete I was worried that we had deleted it from the manager side. But I don't know what it means for the council to have a good relationship with the university and Amherst because we're not all supposed to be. I've been actually discouraged from trotting over to Amherst college with my handout for the elementary school, for example. That's a big ask, but, but beyond that, you know, I think maybe that's to me the reason it was always under the management manager goal was financial, you know that it's a place that interacts with us that to the extent they have a housing and a community that would house the students or house the cars, and or they come up with an agreement that gives us money for the schools. This affects the economic vitality of the town government in a big way, and the residents so I completely put it under the manager. So that was just a way of trying to do it and then the last comment on the anti racism. There's a section. At the very beginning that is the, he's a leader, the town manager is a leader, and it has pieces under staff. It's a natural place to put the anti racism. And when you look at where to stick that in under the town manager. So, and my comment on the administration leadership and I don't know which section is to me this had two parts when I was trying to rate it. One was how he leads and running the town in terms of budget and everything. The second was how he works with staff. And I don't mind it being conflated in here but it seems to me that the two big pieces, and then there's sub pieces of each of them. So staffing we've, we've talked about, there's a later place that says making sure we're adequately staffed or plan for staff but I just, I want to get stat, we have concerns about being under staffed in several places so I just want to have that section and the goals be clear that they're two separate parts and Lynn you've mentioned several times do we need to do a wage and salaries study, you know, I mean it's like where are we at risk of losing people because the market has moved and we haven't. I don't know whether we want to ask for but I'm just saying that all of that is in number one that's where staffing and running the town, people wise is is where he's going. So I'll just stop there but I did I did think that we've got natural sections places to insert some of these words. Thanks Kathy. Okay, so I'm going to take one final comment from Alicia and then check in with Lynn here. Well, I just really quickly wanted to emphasize Jennifer's comments and regards to the polar reform in that when we are adding things to the town manager goals that is how he's managing his time and so again I think that just further emphasizes the importance of having set a certain level of specificity. I think that he knows because he uses it as a guideline quite literally. And because so that he will know what it is, he will be evaluated on very specifically also. So I think those things are important. So, in regards to the anti racist departments. I agree with Mandy Joe that I would like to see it vague but I, and would also like to see the APD specifically referenced because of the motion that pass and so that I just want to make sure that council vote is being followed through upon. So I would like to see both happen, if possible. Thank you Alicia and I just want to add one comment that I feel very strongly that we need a policy goal around the higher ed institutions. And so I don't have language right now but I will send what I have in mind to Mandy. I do think that we have a policy leadership that we are providing as counselors, particularly with state legislation. I think that we have. We have something that we should be including here so I also want to check in with Pat before we wrap up this conversation. Pat, I know your hands not up but just wanting to check in and see if there's anything you'd like to add. I don't think there are a lot of things I agree with. I really think there needs to be flexibility for the town manager. I think we need to clarify what our council priorities are, but what are the things, but guaranteeing everybody to do his job and adapt to current circumstances or changing circumstances. So I want us to be careful about how specific we get I didn't feel like I had anything new to add, but thank you. All right, so Lynn just checking in with you now in terms of timing. What is your expectation and at this point, this, the goals, as we've discussed today are on the agenda for review and discussion by the council on December 5. And, but we will not vote on them until December 19. So that if there's further feedback on the fifth, then GOL still has an opportunity to discuss them again before they come forward for the 19th. And the tricky part is that it should be the packet no later than tomorrow. And that's really a serious challenge and I recognize that. Thank you. Okay, and Mandy really, it feels like Mandy will be taking on the front of that given we won't be meeting again as a committee so Mandy how what's your sense on that. So I would ask anyone who wants to see any types of specifics either for manager or the council side to send them to me by the end of today. I will do my best. Given my schedule tomorrow to get something to Athena by end of business tomorrow, well, end of day tomorrow, not end of business. It's about late tomorrow night and I will include. I think the point at this point, since there hasn't been full discussion on anything is to include basically everything people send me and then the council can start deleting or adding beyond that. I will do my best for organization based on discussion and moving things around and everything so that the council can have a discussion about what's in there on Monday. Great. Throw it all in and we'll deal with it. That sounds great. Thank you so much Mandy for taking that on. Okay, Kathy and Lynn. First is a question for Lynn. If we're discussing it on Monday on Monday and then we're discussing it again. Are you going to organize it into a two part discussion because this is a new idea that the council goals, you know, so, or the flip side would can we focus mainly on the town manager goals because we have to get that done. So we'll go back and fix the other. So just for you to think about how to keep that flow. And then Michelle on your you want to, you want to keep the policy goal link to the colleges, if, if we raise for the council if you want, if you raise that to be supportive of the commission. And working toward that the way we talk about and finance that's fine. What I was concerned with that we as a council, create a direct relationship with all of those entities on all of the specifics so if you do a reformation, and I had no idea the way the town manager goal was written on that, which was sending him off to get us strategic agreements if he can. So those were my comments on those. Thank you. Okay, Lynn. First of all, Kathy I want to thank you for asking that question I will think about it but I think the priority has to be the town managers goals. The idea of establishing a another time where the council probably not until February given how many meetings we have because of MMA in January, probably not until February to have a retreat again. But I also just want to take the opportunity to thank all the counselors who spent time on this and came today and for GL for allowing us to have this time during this meeting because of the jammed agendas we've been having. Thank you. Thank you and thanks for organizing it all in. Thanks a lot and yes thanks to all the counselors who came and Mandy gave pretty clear instructions I think about what to do next if you have something to add. So, feel free to hang out if you'd like in the audience but other than that we're going to please Lynn. I need to adjourn the council. Yes, you do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so we are going to move on to two items that we have to get to today because of certain timelines and we'll we can explain that if needed but we need to get to the food and beverage establishment zoning revisions, as well as the flood plane and so folks now that are in the audience. Lost my. So if you could bring it. Thank you already on it. Welcome Rob. Welcome Nate. Are we going to start with food and drink or flood. We're going to defer to you, Mandy, and you know, you know, better what we should start with given, I think, given the legal opinion, I'm concerned like I know that that needs to sort of be addressed. So you go ahead and decide on that. Well, we've got Robin Nate here, and they were mostly food and drink. So let's start with drink. There was a, so two things. And I'm just trying to get stuff figured out here. There was a legal opinion received on the draft. The draft of the food and drink establishment sections that had articles five and 12 were fine. That article 11 wanted a clarifying in section 11.21 basically just removing the word and from that section 11.2111. And then in the use table section 3.352 there were some comments on condition one with a request to potentially based on the intention. That the liquor license be subject and to review and approval of the board, not the establishments and I'll pull up some of the language secondly, and then condition seven versus five some consider combining those requirements in regarding on site training and certification on those conditions. And then on a backdrop of also that CRC when it voted these use regulation of the food and drink establishment regulations voted that there should be changes condition to condition 10 of the section three use table to increase the BNC 50 and to change the hundred foot limit to apply only to outdoor seating and to prohibit outdoor live and or prerecorded entertainment. Rob and Nate we're going to look to see whether that was just a change in condition 10 or whether they were going to propose some changes to article five related to that I believe it was article five. And so I would pass it over to Robin Nate to see what they've done with that vote, so that we're looking at the right potential language CRC will be looking at it again so one potential recommendation that GOL could do is to declare the items clear and actionable as long as CRC addresses those changes something like that to move it back to CRC to sort of finalize and vote its recommendation with the changes recommended by the attorneys and stuff like that is a potential action for GOL today to just say do it CRC and come back tomorrow, you know, come to the council with those changes made. Yeah, we talked a little bit about that yesterday I think that's a good, a good strategy here I am what is the timeline on this so it has to. So the first reading has to happen. So has to is a is a word I would use as chair. This this these changes are attempting to address items that have been in place under article 14 of zoning for the last two years plus. So that article sunsets in exactly 31 days on December 31 2022 and so if we want these changes in place, basically by the sun setting it'll be a couple days after they'll be like a two day. It would be two days. Yeah, it would be two day one day of not in place. We need to have the first reading on the fifth because the vote has to be on the 19. Bylaws aren't effective for two weeks after the vote, which means that would make them effective the second of January so any delay. We're not up against the 90 day limit from hearing close that we'd have to hold another hearing we just closed the hearing and CRC a week ago. But the longer the vote takes, the more time there is nothing in place to replace article 14. Right. And so that's that's sort of the time restraint the Council's on so so we're really looking for a first reading on the fifth so that that can happen. And that there's minimal time difference, you know, minimal lag between for article 14 sunsetting an article and these changes becoming effective. Great. Okay. And you wanted to pass it over to Rob. I think we'll pass it over to Nate if he's got the most recent language because maybe we did incorporate the CRC's. In condition, both condition 10 and article five. I think he has the latest version. Nate. Hi, everyone. So do you want me to share my screen or is it just alright to talk about everything so I was a new. Maybe start with just article 11. It's simpler. You know, Jonathan Murray from KP law. Let's see which I had recommended and Mandy mentioned this. If the screen is visible for everyone. So this and right here. That's highlighted should be should be just eliminated because it, it reads right now that all these conditions have to apply. You know, so that site plan review isn't required and really it's each, each individual sub bullet is an instance where site plan review wouldn't be required so it's not, you know, it's not that it has to meet all of these conditions. You know, if any of these apply so this could just be eliminated. You know, that was Jonathan suggestion just so it's not, you know, and that's the way the bylaw was written I think this and was inserted as, you know, just to carry the, when this was read you know this was all kind of renumbered and the and was inserted and it really shouldn't have been so it's to me a more straightforward change. In terms of the suggestions for the use chart. You know, we've, we've, I something just pulled the other document will be a new share. You know, he had mentioned a few conditions so we're adding 11 possible conditions to the section 3.352. And there are some questions about the language. With that one and so. You know, if his email is up. The first one was condition one, it was asking if the, if it's the intention that a special permit is subject to review and approval by the board of licensing commissioners or is it that the establishments liquor license is really subject to review and approval by the board of license commissioners and that's the Amherst board, you know. And so, you know, we're saying as applicable all food and drink establishments are subject to the following standards and conditions subject to review and approval by the board of licensing commissioners and so. You know, to me, it's, you know, if someone is serving, if an establishment is serving, proposing to serve alcohol, they would have to apply to the board of licensing commissioners, I don't. You know, I don't know, Rob, if you think we need any clarifying language there if you think it's, it's sufficient for interpretation now. So you thought it would be okay the way it is because we, you know, we start off the list of conditions as applicable. It's not just alcohol or alcohol licenses is also common big licenses. So there are other instances where the board of license commissioners may be reviewing, you know, I would have added if applicable at the end but it seems repetitive so we can talk about that with Jonathan and incorporate, you know, whatever his question is for the, you know, final clarifying piece there, but if you think that's a, you know, a conflict or concern. Not every, I think to his point, we're not trying to suggest every application goes to the Board of License Commissioners, unless it's in front of the Board of License Commissioners for some purpose that their jurisdiction over. We, we thought it was sufficient right here to say as applicable at the beginning of these standards and conditions so really it's not, not every application, you know, a restaurant or food and drink establishment is going to necessarily need all these standards and conditions is only if they're applicable so if you're not, you know, if you're not having outdoor dining then, you know, some of the latter conditions aren't applicable, and they would be if you know chose to have outdoor dining. And so, you know, it could just be the way he's interpreting it, you know, but the way staff has worked on it. His email also mentioned condition seven, you know, at what frequency should onsite training and certification be conducted. And could this be rolled into condition five for the management plan. And I think from staff's perspective, it would just be as easy to say, on condition seven, you know, like current onsite, you know, these trainings and current certifications, right so something just add one more word there it's really, you know, I think it's staff would understand that again as applicable if someone is proposing to have a certain establishment they need these certifications and they'd have to be current so they couldn't apply and have expired certifications and so, you know, whether or not we roll into condition five we like calling it out as a separate condition, you know, I've explained this to the planning board and CRC that really this is, it's helpful for staff and an applicant to see these upfront. And these are, you know, only applied if necessary so you know it could be that we for condition seven here if we say something like, you know, current certifications or something and add one more, you know, a little bit of clarifying language I don't, Bob and I discussed this quickly this morning that's something we could suggest I don't know if, you know, if it's necessary again it may just be, you know, Jonathan's reading this without some context here. And just quickly the planning board also has looked at this and recommended it. The CRC would still like to have some language for condition 10. And so, you know, the blue and the green is something that was just tracking different meetings between the planning board and CRC. It's, you know, this is all been incorporated so this is all just bold and italics and in your packet. In terms of condition 10 the CRC wanted to increase the number of seats in the bn. So that's was suggested here, instead of 30 there's 50 seats. And that really that any outside dining in accordance with section this this is what's being proposed as new language to meet the CRC's recommendations that any outdoor outside dining in accordance with section 5.041 be located within 100 feet from any residential dwelling in a residential district. So, the way the condition reads currently is that if a building wall is within 100 feet of a residential dwelling in a residential district so really any abutting property, then it can have any food or drink establishment in it. And when we looked at it, this 100 foot buffer eliminated almost every property in the bn format actually having any of these uses. And so, it wasn't necessarily that the use was incompatible with the bn district it's that perhaps outdoor dining, you know, would need to be moved away from the residential areas. So in terms of not allowing outdoor music or, or live or pre recorded music and article five, we just list it's as an accessory use I can do a new share. You know that live and pre recorded music is allowed in the bgbl calm bn and we would just remove bn from that list and so then it just wasn't you know just wouldn't be applicable so someone couldn't apply for accessory use in the bn. And so, for looking at article five. For season outdoor dining you know we we list these zoning districts, and then we have all these conditions, and we do the same for live or pre recorded music. In this instance we could just strike bn from this listing so that you know it's no longer allowed in the bn district, as opposed to you know trying to manipulate the use chart we would just remove that from the section of article five. We would just address, you know all the suggestions by the CRC and then also Jonathan Murray's comments. Excellent thank you Nate. Rob, did you want to add anything to that. I could just have a question on that last piece Nate that you just mentioned. I thought, if I understood it correctly we were just trying to prohibit outdoor live entertainment pre recorded entertainment. I would just suggest that would eliminate the ability to have you know a piano playing on the inside of the establishment so I think we should add a clause that it's just very clear that in the bn. No outdoor pre recorded or live entertainment, which I think I think is consistent with what the CSC asked for but we can maybe ask others if that's true. Yeah man I guess right that clarification it was only outdoor dining, right as opposed to any accessory dining or you know I mean, live or pre recorded music was to prohibit outdoor live or pre recorded entertainment. Okay. So right so what I suggested just striking the bn wouldn't work and we know we could add a sentence at the end. To that initial paragraph, stating what Rob just said that any live or pre you know outdoor music would be prohibited in the vn district. So, I thank you for that I would say Michelle is it okay. I wonder if GOL if no one else has any other changes for clarity consistency or action ability if the motion would be to, you know declare all of this and I can come up with the languages to how many changes it is. The motion is to declare it clear consistent and actionable with the changes discussed at GOL something like that so that we don't have to specify all of them in the motion and we know as chair of CRC I would ask that Nate and Rob come back with later today so I can get it in the packet the sort of final wording so that CRC can see it for tomorrow. On these changes, but would that be acceptable Michelle if that sort of motion is no I mean, I think that's a great, a great solution, but other members have any comments on that. All right. So not seeing any so I think that works Mandy. I will make the motion then to declare the revisions to food and drink establishments article three use regulations article five accessory uses article 11 administration and enforcement and article 12 definitions. As discussed on November 30 2022 clear consistent and actionable. And then Miller. Any further discussion. All right. Anika I'll start with you. Hi. Jennifer. Hi. Pat. Hi. Mandy. Hi. I'm an eye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That passes and thank you very much, Nate and Rob for your patients this morning and for all the work on this and for being here. And you're welcome to stick around for the next. I don't know how, how much in the floodplains are going to. Ignore them Nate. Be willing to stick around for a couple more minutes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Rob, we'll see you tomorrow, both of you at CRC to deal with food, but the floodplains, three of us have already seen this so many times. There are three sets of floodplain changes. I can put them up there in the packet. This one has a time deadline. They have to be formally approved by the federal or state or something with that by mid February. The date sometime in February, six months after we got the letter of determination, which was in August. The planning department is my understanding is they want us to get these voted in December because they want at least a month before that deadline to send them to whatever place it needs sent to, because they have to review them. I don't know whether it's the state or the federal level and tell us whether they're okay, but they can't do that until we've actually passed them and enacted them. And I guess if they're not okay, then we figure out how to get an emergency chain or something to comply with stuff. I'm hoping all we do is getting okay. And I think the entire planning departments, fingers crossed, we pass these and get the okay. They are based on what model bylaws from the state, I believe, Nate, or the federal government so so we didn't write these ourselves we modified them the planning department modified them based on those model guidelines. CRC seen them, I can attempt to and maybe Nate can attempt to Nate was not our main contact I don't think on these, these bylaws but he's our planning department person here, if there are any questions but again we're only looking at clear consistent and actionable. Okay, good. Oh, sorry, please Nate. Sure yeah so yeah I was actually I was working on the bylaws behind the scenes and so, you know there's just a quick summary of the process we've had a consultant update the flood insurance rate maps, you know the FEMA maps for the town. And then they go through the state and then to the federal age, you know FEMA so it's both the state and the federal agency that reviews them as part of the firm program to have these maps. So residents to get flood insurance, we have to have a local regulation and so part of the process is we need to adopt local regulations to guide development in the floodplain and we're doing that through zoning and so, you know we're proposing the FEMA overlay district which is article 16 in the zoning bylaw so it's a self contained section of the bylaw that has all the regulations that will meet state and FEMA standards. It's a lot easier to do it that way than say incorporate it in bits and pieces throughout the bylaw because if something ever changes, you have to go find out what you know where that would need to be updated so we're proposing article 16 as an overlay district. Article two is the section in the bylaw where we define the district, you know that it's an overlay districts, according to the FEMA standards. In article three, there's two sections in our bylaw that are being updated. We have a section 3.13 where it's a paragraph on its own that talks about development and floodways, and it's independent of the FEMA overlay or any other piece in our bylaw and so we're just we're making a reference there. Just say at the end of this. I can share my screen. This is article three we're just proposing at the end of it see are also article 16 FEMA floodplain overlay district so it's just, you know, we're not trying to change this necessarily we're just referencing it. I will say there's one other change that needs to happen. The state has looked at this so this is a our contact at the state has looked at articles 23 and 16. And just say the week they only comment they had in this section was that we referenced these floodway and flood boundary maps. And when this section of the bylaw was written it was probably honestly back in the 70s before we had our firm maps and we had any flood insurance rate maps through FEMA and so what what this should say is instead of the floodway and flood boundary map it should just say firm maps, you know the flood insurance rate map so the floodway and flood boundary maps preceded firm maps so we've had firm maps since the 80s. And so this section of the bylaw was either written after that or reference an older map style. And for, and just one other section, we have the flood prone conservancy district, it's a base zoning district so it's something that's, you know, just like the resident, you know, residential, general residential district or the business districts that's a base zoning district, and it regulates development in these flood prone conservancy areas and it has different goals and purposes and say just the FEMA section and so we didn't want to rewrite all of section 3.22. It's a number of pages, and it's going to stay there. However, we added this statement on the end saying that the floodplain management regulations in article 16 shall take precedence over any less restrictive conflicting provisions of this bylaw or other local bylaws, just so that, you know, some of the provisions of the flood prone conservancy will still work as will the FEMA overlay, and the state found that to be fine. Just because they want the FEMA regulations take precedence in any case so in terms of article 16. Right, it's a most of it followed a FEMA boilerplate in the effective date is February 9 2023. And so what has to happen is they recommend four to five weeks before this due date the the local municipality has to adopt the regulations and the flood insurance rate maps, and then we have to have a certified copy sent to the state and they'll send it to FEMA and the four to five weeks is to allow them one more final review of our local regulations and so, you know, I don't know what would happen if they weren't if it wasn't done in time it seems like we would be suspend suspended from the firm program, we'd have to go through some appeal action with FEMA in the state to be reinstated and so we're in a good timeline now. So you know this one is, you know as Mandy mentioned there's a somewhat of more of a timeline in terms of having council look at this. Excellent thank you so much Nate Mandy. Two questions the first is Nate, when this comes to the Council on Monday, can you make sure that that section you just mentioned that needs changed has already been modified for the Council. So, I think Athena will need the drafts tomorrow or something and I know I sent her the prior ones but if there's some changes they could come from you. The next question is about the effective date should GOL be recommending that this bylaw you know it can't be effective less than two weeks before we vote, but we can pick a different effective date on the vote should we be having this effective that February 9 date for the bylaws to go into effect or should we just let them go into effect two weeks after we vote. That would be early January. Yeah, that's a good question. So they, they can't be effective until February 9. And so that's the date that the maps and the flood insurance study will have. And so, you know, even if we vote it. I wouldn't say it. I think it actually might might be better to have in the vote the February 9 date. And we could clarify that with the state but you know they just want the local vote to happen beforehand and just reference this bylaw so I'm not. It's interesting what they become effective. Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't even if they became effective we couldn't reference the new maps because the maps wouldn't be effective until the ninth anyway so there could be. You know, if we voted in there, our local regulations became effective, you know, mid January we'd still be using. We use both maps now, but you have to use the more restrictive maps the 80s maps or the current maps and so if that were the case. And, you know, say this bylaw became effective in mid January for those two weeks, we'd still be using both maps but if the 80s maps were more restrictive for property owner that's what we would have to use for regulatory purposes. So the state doesn't require that they're made effective two weeks prior as you're saying, okay. So then it would make sense for us to indicate that date I think in the vote. Yeah. Okay. Do you do any members have any comments specifically regarding clarity consistency and action ability and Mandy I'm sorry I should have asked you this there was already legal. You all have already other than me and Anika you have all seen this quite a bit. So that's already been gone through all that process. Okay. So if there aren't any other questions and maybe Mandy can make the motion including the date. To declare the proposed revisions to zoning bylaws article to zoning districts article three use regulations and article 16 female floodplain overlay district and the revisions to the zoning bylaw official zoning map female floodplain overlay district to be clear consistent and actionable and to recommend the council adopt with an effective date of February 9 2023. Second. Any other discussion. Okay, Mandy I'll start the vote with you. I. Pat. I. Jennifer. I. Nika. I. And I'm an I. Great. Thank you so much for all the work on on that and thank you Nate for joining us and staying along this. Sure. Thanks everyone. You'll be happy to have this done. It's only been 10 years. Okay, so if we could just quickly approve the November 9 meeting minutes for everyone's had a chance to look at it and then we. Well, let me check in quickly on timing for everybody. What hard stops do folks have. To 1130. You have to 1130 Nika. Okay. Alright, I will manage to say to 1130, but not 1131. I think we actually. So the only other thing we're not going to do snow and ice today I am going to invite some folks to that discussion it was on the agenda, just because of the timing of the weather we're likely to get. That done, but I did want to come back to the review of public record status of CAFs and I'll talk about that in a second. Actually, let's talk about that right now since we have until Mandy is 1130. Okay. So, we had a conversation in our last meeting. Some, some of you were not able I think it was Pat and Anika know a Pat and Jennifer that was not able to be here. When Paul came to speak with us about CAFs. Paul indicated we had a we had a good conversation with Paul and he indicated that he was willing to begin to create demographic reports for us based on who is applying and I think he understood our reasoning for those recommendations and I understand that he had actually previously done that per elicit brewers recommendation or request in the last council. So, that is a solution that Paul was willing to do so we don't need to take any action as a council on this, if we're comfortable as a committee that reporting via Paul will work for us, at least to see how that goes to see if it creates more transparency in a better sense of who is applying for positions. Yes, Anika. Okay, so just I'm sorry if I missed part of what you said so the so the reports are actually coming to TSL correct. They're coming. I think that's how he described it. Yes. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I didn't have an off agenda coming. Okay. Yeah, so and he I did check in with him and he had said that a lot of staff was out and things like that but I think that's the idea that they would come to TSO and then be part of, and then would be available to the council as well. So is that an acceptable for now solution to what we've been talking about related to CAFs, because if there is no committee action that I would just basically write a report and indicate what Paul is has agreed to do and then we can move on from that topic. Jennifer. But there, there will be no public posting of who submits like that. I'm still not quite clear why when someone submits a CAF, it's not public information they're not disclosing anything personal. I mean again it's public information. Is this correct when they submit a CAF to a council appointed committee. It's just the town manager. Yeah, so I'm still right now. So for the council commit the council committees the whole council sees the CAFs that come through. Okay, but are they public, does the public see. No, that. I mean they could but they could be if a public records request was made. No, they've been deemed personnel records and personnel records are not public records. Even when they come to a council committee. Correct. That's interesting. I don't think I realized that I think I thought that because the whole council was receiving them that they were then a matter of public record if they were requested. I mean, we request, I mean, I don't want to divert but that just seems odd to me why if you're a member of the public and you apply for a public body, you know, public governing body that you're not, you know that that seems like that would be public information. So did we request that that be private, the town, or is that a state requirement I don't understand how that comes to be. Somebody gets, somebody gets submits a CAF and they could be consistently not asked be invited for an interview and that wouldn't feel very inclusive. You know, if you don't let's say I keep applying to serve on a committee or commission and you know nobody ever the town manager doesn't interview me. What can I do about that. I see a Nika's hand is really, I didn't realize my hand was still maybe treated like an employment record where they wouldn't be. This is not a public knowledge in the same way as if you know someone is applying for a, you know, a position with the town, a paid position with the town rather. So they have, I'm not the expert on this I think Alyssa in the past council was much more of an expert on the history behind this but you know so I'm going off of my memory which is a Nika, in some sense you're right they are treated as essentially applications for employment, you know, criminal records in that sense. All people appointed to committees are technically municipal employees for ethics laws and open meeting law issues that's why we sometimes vote some committees special municipal employees it has no under, you know, there's no reference to whether there's a stipend or any type of salary. That's just how the law is written and so my guess is and this is just a guess that because of that sort of relationship, I would say, or connection between what the public records in terms of a technical application to be on a body that if you are appointed you are then an employee that that allows them to be deemed employment records which then exempts them from open meeting law and public records which then exempts them from public records matters unless the, again, unless the process is public, and we are a public body so certain parts of that process are public, but only to a certain extent. I'm not an expert at this I don't know the exact, there might somewhere in some OCA meeting packet from four years ago be the actual legal opinion that describes all of this. I don't know I know there are some towns that I was not on OCA when this happened so I'm not the best person to describe all of this. I know there are some towns that have those sort of documents public. I don't know whether they just have an attorney that has done it differently or interpreted the law, like I don't know why there's a just, you know, a difference between some towns that those committee applications are deemed public records and those towns where they have been deemed personnel records and therefore not public records I don't know what the difference is in that legal interpretation but in our town they have always been deemed personnel records employment records that are not subject to public record disclosure. I think that's what I've heard as well and that also it's like it doesn't prevent anyone from sharing their experience, but it doesn't force everyone to have to share their experience or have it out there what they're applying for whether that be a volunteer or paid position. Yeah, and I was just trying to look for I know there was a report I think written by Evan Ross that may have some of that's been in our packet and may have some of that information I think that, and Jennifer I'm going to come to you I think that we can just explore this a little bit more, and maybe even just ask that to Paul directly if that's the right person to ask, while also agreeing that the demographics piece is a good move, either way, you know, even if we want to come back to this at a and another time. Jennifer please. Yeah, Mike, I guess concerned and we don't have to address it further here is, I think we discussed it that if you, if a resident submits a calf for a town for a council committee. They will receive an interview, you know we don't, it doesn't seem like we weed people out you know, but the way it works for a town manager appointed committee. And I understand that a town manager, maybe if he gets 50 applications and say which unlikely to happen for a board, or commission he can't interview he or she can't interview everyone. But, you know, you want somebody could continuously submit a calf, or a town manager appointed commission and never be called for an interview, and that's, you know, could be concerning. And we would never know nobody would ever know. I believe Paul said everyone is interviewed. Oh, did he say that. No, I believe he said that but he'll confirm when everything that everything comes. All the reports. Yeah, I think what he said is that I would listen actually to the meeting, because he described last meeting, the last meeting. And listening to it, he described some circumstances that I'm not going to rehash here, but that you might. Okay, I'm sorry, because I wasn't here I shouldn't take up the time on this. No, no, it's these are really great questions and I think he did just speaking to it and he could just said say that he tries to interview every person that there were certain circumstances that he brought to light that you could listen to in the meeting. Okay, thank you. Pat. Yeah, one of the things I remember both from Oka and these ongoing discussions are first year on the council was that there seemed to be concerned that if someone puts in a calf, and they don't get appointed that they could be embarrassed if the calf had been made public. And I think that's kind of silly. But apparently that's driven a lot of the decision to keep them private. I am going to share this quickly with you so this is the report that Evan wrote. And I think this is maybe what you're talking about Pat the Oka. I'm trying to figure out how I make this bigger. It's probably pretty small, huh. Oh wait, here we go. See if you can see. Can you all see this. I can even try bigger. See. How's that a little better. Better. Yes. Okay, one more time. Okay one more let's see if I can do that. Oh yeah you can. Awesome. Now that's better. That's good. Okay. Is there a specific area that references the calf. That's what I'm just looking for community activity. And then the current community activity form for town appointed bodies reflecting them as shown in the document community activity form. This might be more about. What's included. And whether you have to put in a new calf. Yeah, here's the disagreement with public. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to discussion. And has yet to come to a reasonable consensus. Reduced. No later than one week prior to the scheduled interviews. Okay. So that's what Mandy was describing last time. So the SOIs are public. So the piece that we don't know is who applies and who, who doesn't get. Okay. Window. Okay. Well, this is helpful actually. Yes. Yeah. You see who's interviewed. Well, obviously see who's interviewing because it's public when the interview happens. But again, remember, there's a differentiation between the council committees and the town manager. Appointed committees. Okay. Let's see if there's anything else. There was it. Okay. That's a SOI stuff. New calf. Okay. So with that information in mind, are there any other comments or questions or action that the committee would like to pursue? Okay. So we'll see how the demographic. Thing. Those and. I will write a report and just talk about our discussion here. For the council. Great. All right. So let's just go ahead then and approve the. Meeting minutes. So I'm moving to approve the November 9th, 2022 meeting minutes. Second. Great. Any discussion. Okay. Pat. Hi. Mandy. Hi. Jennifer. Hi. I'm an eye. And so those pass. And our next meeting will be on. December 14th. And do we have specific agenda items that anybody is aware of? We have snow and ice for sure. That will come up. Athena, please. I haven't had a chance to send an email about this, but Annika and I went back and forth about the TSO upcoming meeting date and agenda regarding the water and sewer bylaws. I don't know if you've heard of that, but TSO is going to take that up. Later than we expected. On December. 15th. So that won't be ready for GOL review until January and it'll push back. The approval by the council because. Well, it won't be reviewed by GOL until January. So we're just, I think one meeting behind the schedule that I had sent you. Last week. And is that for the buy? So there's the regulations and the bylaws. Are we doing. I believe GOL is already reviewed and recommended the water regulations, but not the sewer regulations. So I don't know if you want to take those up all at the same time, the regulations and the bylaws, or if you want to look at the regulations earlier and then the bylaws once TSO has completed their review. But we do have a legal opinion on the bylaws. And so hopefully that TSO review will. Okay. And I seem to remember something with the water regulations that there was an issue on. Like the enforcement or the, the fee or something like that. Did that. There were questions about whether or not the enforcement authority and fees needed to be included in the bylaws. My opinion at the time we talked about this last to GOL was that. There to be a fee for a violation of the bylaw and a separate fee for violation of the regulations. If you're violating the regulations, then that's a violation of the regulations and there's a fee associated with that. It doesn't make sense to also have a fee and violation of the bylaw. So we, the legal opinion that we received includes the discussion of that. I believe the, what KP law recommended was that the bylaw. That the bylaw would be included in the bylaw. Refer to the regulations with the fees and then. The only thing that the bylaw would need to include regarding violations would be enforcing authority. Which is also reflected in the regulation. Okay, great. All right. Excellent. So is there anything else. That anybody knows about. Okay. I don't know if anybody has. I know there was the street to the street lights get anywhere. Okay. And then what about Mandy? The. Oh, I heard from Andy that he's going to take that up soon. The. The measure that you in. Transfer fees. Yeah, the transfer fees. Thank you. Okay. So we're not anywhere near that. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. I'm going to adjourn the meeting at 11, 20 a.m. And thank you all for putting in the extra time today. Thank you so much. Okay. Bye bye.