 With enough time that they can still do it if they didn't do it yet, but close to that They feel motivated to do it for the meeting. Yeah, something like that so it's like one person that has the specific role of Pinging people and that's the only role, but I think it's very important because we tend to I Don't know. I think most people tend to be Prioritizing and then say, yeah, this is something that will only take me two hours and it keeps Then the time when it should have been done comes and it was not done So like having someone mail you and asking you how it's going. Do you think we will make it? So as long as they choose someone who has the right tone Yes, it has to be someone with social skills, but it also has to be Accepted by the team that this person has this role and it's not personal. It's It's a help for the whole functioning of the team Yeah, so this was one idea That's a good idea I think we should propose it to the mailing list and that we discussed it today And that you want to be that person that we nominate not really so At least when we did it in Argentina It was one person that has this role is as a glorified any other Responsibility that people and this allowed this person to do this job very well So if I take this responsibility, I can't take anything else And since I'm planning on taking other things, I would prefer other person to take it Okay, so should we ask the mailing list that anybody wants to do this or do you have Do you have anyone particularly in mind? I don't have someone in mind Kevin, I think we should send an email to the list and explain this Are there any questions or objections in this round? I don't think so Consensus maybe ask for volunteers to be sent to someone Like sent to Mario or something and then you can choose It's kind of hard if someone just volunteers public from this it's hard to reply to them saying no You don't have the requisite You should have a list of all the tasks But I could be distributed before you decide to take one out The point is that that person shouldn't have any tasks No, no, but I mean That person should know which task they should take Reproducing No, of course, but this will change with time So for example, I don't know the sponsorship brochure was something that was being done as soon as it's finished It's finished, so you don't need to think about it anymore and you can focus on something else This I see it as a new volunteer someone that just arrived on the team that you can That's willing to take this home, but not someone that is already involved with the renovation will be hard Yeah So we know what to do Are there any other ideas that from teams that they would like to discuss like DC 15 members or even questions from the outside, maybe Preparation for the session no Just general, you know like you know that the session is going on you came here Maybe you have an agenda. Maybe you want to say something if you're here just to listen in that's I Didn't really read what these Not really we have one in our heads somehow I have one idea. I would like to resonate just get a sort of like general feedback And that's relating to the food selection the food That we cater to And I know this is a contentious issue with some people, but I Would like to see I would personally like to see that content more in the direction of Having of not defaulting to serving meat every day so making vegetarian be more of a standard default option and then You know make me twice a day or something like that So it seems more like Meet my Messes up the entire week But is there anything that I mean we can discuss this for two hours now or we can just sort of like generally raise hands and just simply say Yeah, this is something we can we can imagine doing and it's probably gonna take us a couple of years You can get there and there's gonna be many claimors, or do you have anything Here at the start If it's well done, there will be no reasons for a complaint first if it's well done Yeah What we have sometimes like for example cheese in one part There will be some cheese vegan cheese, but then the other people can't eat the vegan cheese But there's only a small portion But if we think that it interests more a broader public then it should have more vegan cheese because I am not Strictly vegan, but I'd like to eat the vegan cheese Yeah, so this kind of situation always happens and I think it's something if you want to try out different things It's that I would Say it's the best if you want to do that The best way is actually by not trying to make it a big discussion tall They're just saying this is the food that's been like so many things If you have a flit discussion, it's better than what I mean the worst case is if you propose it as an ethical ground Yeah If you just say this is the food that's being provided then I think one thing should be that there's no checkbox Vegan or non-vegan or normal food maybe diet food because this year I checked Vegan food because I like meat but also like being but it doesn't matter at all. Yes, so This checkbox was completely But it's it would matter not next Yes Because if you have what the one day where you have meat you need to buy something as for those people Right If you have a day with a vegetarian anyway, you don't need to care about the vegetarian It's not because I tell you the other thing I would say is that for the if you're only having vegetarian stuff On any particular day it becomes much more important to be to allow for the fact that lots of people are just pinkie So if you have something that's a nice healthy Mixed new to very vegetarian meal. It made me that half the people who are the meat eaters We're only used to eating meat and potatoes just refused to eat it Yeah, then we do that ten years in a row and then I mean Let's stop discussing. I mean, it's not a local No, it's not a team eating. It's a long-term plan Well, yeah, but if we are saying we will do it this next year It will be really hard next year by the way, because Germany is not as advanced when it comes to Some other parts of this world, but and I've talked to this to the youth hostel already about this and preparation but I You know if I if I feel that there is a consensus or some sort of like a back up I feel that I can increase I think it's easier to do in the environment of staying in a youth hostel place and being in the city That the first day fits is not surprising in the surroundings in a way and people have other options. I think in a Some other setups people might have been more likely to eject but Yeah, they can they cater to everything except for kosher, but I'm trying to push them to actually Be more vegetarian Anyway, we'll talk about this more. Thank you very much for the feedback Then I guess we should get to the main point that spawned this meeting Other people may also Okay I just remember to say which is kind of from the some of the previous topic, but it's a general thing really Or not that's in sorry before last is just about the teams and so on in general that it is important not not to keep people happy but for the Lowering the stress and amount of work needed by the people who are in this who are from Germany or in this room To actively reach out to and pull back in people who've been involved in previous years Which means people who've been in particular teams this year, but also maybe in the last year or two Many years people kind of just assume that it's those people's responsibility to get involved again if they want to which is obviously true But if you just take that attitude it leaves it everything needs to be done by a limited number of people So even though it's annoying to have to reach out to someone and be very polite and say You were you ran the network team two years ago You were interested in doing it and you were really great Maybe we can put you in charge of the network team because you're so wonderful whatever But maybe it feels like it's much easier just to get on and do it yourself By the time it comes to DevCon for the month leading up to it. It's really a problem if you don't have those people so Maybe in the same well, it's partly something that someone in particular could take charge of a bit like the poking people job, but also it's something everyone should think about if you're involved in the topic just to actively be trying to Get people from previous years Because otherwise you really have again you have well there's problem with manpower But also even if you have no any people in Germany again You want to get involved next year so the year after or the year after when they're somewhere useless It doesn't have enough lookable in tears It's there's no good easy way I think it basically just means whoever's in any again Someone could do it if they took it as a job To act to kind of re-recruit previous people and just looking through previous year as team lists Included meet on the wiki or final reports But also it needs in some respects. It needs to come from people walking in particular area So say if someone's working in the networking area, they should look who's worked on that working before and try and Actively ping those people and again It's it's a problem about the tone because you need like for paying people Because it's not just it's not enough to say I'm running networking now Do you want to come and be my servant because they will just say no You need to be in the way in tone saying that they're going their ideas are going to be very important I think the I think we're we are doing this Here they are ready. Yeah, maybe we can do it a little more. It's also dependent on what time you're in But it's something that's relevant to the next few months So we are working with the sponsorship team and Norman Garcia and Brian Gupta are Pretty much on the team again And then for instance what when with regards to website and stuff I'm working very hard this entire week already to get general and case and Steve Langeshack and Patty To to be enticed to keep developing what we have this year and make better Exactly. Yes, but and possibly integrate that Well, we'll see about about that and then Talks team scheduling and so on that comes much later, but in some ways I feel that is a given anyway in some ways Again, it makes sense to reach out to them quite early on even if they're not starting working for later Right. So one of the things that we will be discussing with easy 15 over the next couple of months is taking in the Feedback from working what they did differently and try to decide what density of talks we want and so on and that's a good thing Sorry at this stage in a way the most important thing is just not doing anything that goes against that Because one or two previous years the things that happened like people posting on The wiki their new list of teams with members only from the local team and at some set of people Not really in any rational way, but we just be annoyed at that and say well, I'm not gonna help them then So we have that I don't think it's being yet of course of conflict. So no no, but it's a good point I think it's I think we should not publish that list and tell people to enter themselves But we should attract the people and then that's exactly and then suddenly they find themselves on the list. I Mean, yeah, you cannot if it's a wiki thing You can also just add them in advance, but you see not to know who's really doing it There's not enough in that name to be there if they're not actually changing work. Are there any other issues questions? ideas Concerned there's a list with people From previous years Yeah, that shouldn't exist. Yeah, well again finally final reports is and partly other just other stuff on the wiki Yeah, I think the current team. This is not There is one for DC a fortune lots of ellipses and Maybe we should go over it with These people actually weren't yet And I definitely know the video team on the wiki is it's like Carl one other person and then my name of your volunteers And I know that there's more than three people on video team for DC 14 Like it's just another volunteers. It is really just me. I think We're speaking of final reports You're gonna write it up from 15 one this week that come 15 one is already done No, but I guess you may have followed this already you may know about this already, but did he went and Already created a structure and the empty document For the DC 14 final report and even though that is theoretically the job of the DC 14 team to finish We all know that this it is really good if everyone helps especially the next team And it's an our main interest to do that and So I would simply like to remind everyone that it would be really cool If you could take during this conference on the way home or at home take half an hour time and just jump together Stuff collect material or even read an article sometimes. That's fun Yeah, well, he's actually mentioned that today in a sign-up meeting He said Well, the stress has been running now and he purged the DC 14 So I think about the final report also Coming up with ideas. I mean That's great, but in the end it means somebody who read the chapter But so I don't know maybe we can talk to them and say well We'll do differently this year but in the past years. It was that people computer chapters and then they got edited by Other people did the final report And if you just have people start okay looking at walk posts and stuff, that's useful, but I think the real I think it's a very good thing you came up with this primary and secondary Chapter, so if the network team fails to come up with something at some point, you will just ship it But there's I will I will personally see through the budget and Accounting chapter, which seems to be one of the core chapters and somebody else I'm as willing to do that. I have a dream that at the end of the conference We the organizing team meets with the next organizing team for a day and then doing the final report is part of that day and also like learning from each other and Discussing what's what went good and what went bad it would be really useful to have a discontent because of Experimentation that we're doing I Don't know if it's gonna happen this year, but I think we would like to plan it actually plan it and announce it for DC 15 So that everybody knows already by the time they book flights that they're sort of like invited to stay a day longer Which of course can be combined with perks like dinner. I mean that's all doable, right? So anyway bottom line Final report if you feel like you have half an hour or an hour or on the way home, you would like to write something Talk to the TV Before you go home exactly And I hope we can make this happen You can clean No, you're good Other things Do we need to talk about that or is that under control and then you and you have been working very hard and well Well, I don't know we can discuss later Let's discuss like I mean that I think everybody who wants who can be there will be there Because that's all that's one of the times when you actually get to show your face and say credit for the work that you've already done We've already done a lot of work and we get to present that now and so that's a motivation But yeah, it's also a it's also a promise to the future All right, then let's talk briefly about the sponsorship for sure And so the process what what happens? It was a little bit up and down here and there everywhere And I did have a particularly bad day in the middle of it too and pushed things that made some people angry I Think that We've talked between those people and myself and up to the point where all the bad feelings have been Taken under control and I also don't think that any steps have been taken which are irreversible because they are in any way public The process that we are at at the moment is that we are now pretty much Somewhere in the middle between DC team looking at the sponsorship for sure and DC 15 team making a final decision We had the sponsorship for sure more or less done and we pushed it out to the sponsors team And there were many discussions on the IRC channel Not many people had a lot of time, but Brian provided very insightful feedback Norman Garcia provided very insightful feedback and there was a statement from Norman Saying that as far as he said this for sure is ready to be presented to DC team Which I took to mean I don't even know what the sponsors team is exactly Made up of but Norman is certainly one of the people who has been doing a lot of work so I trust that he is He gave me to go ahead in this one and I sent the brochure to DC team last week about a week ago and With a request for comments and also with I believe I listed all of the different points that were questionable And so far I have not seen any feedback, which obviously can also be that means consensus, right? Which is obviously attributable to travel and some events that's happening. Yeah, we wanted to Not wait very much longer with this brochure because of DC 14 There was the sort of like self-imposed deadline that maybe we could hand out or have them already like displayed Supposed to pursue to some people at DC 14, but also Frostconn, which I thought would happen next weekend Absolutely good. Yeah, it happened last weekend So there was a little bit of a problem there. However, I still think that we should keep up the pace now and and get this finished as soon as possible because the budgeting season starts for the big companies and if we want to be in the budget That's going to be finalized in October and November and then we really need to get a move on We've already had the first request from a from a potential platinum sponsor For the sponsorship for sure saying that they close their budgeting at the end of harvest so Yeah, it's in the RT. Well, they close their planning for whatever it was a special thing, but yes Anyway, yes, I don't know. In effect. It's the same thing. There's it There's also that even if you're involved So we are we're in a very good position here But this is important information to know and I think we should not wait any longer And I don't think there's much of a reason to wait much longer if the Terms that we promise in the sponsorship brochure at this point in time are something that we can reach agreement On the specific point about that sponsor I would say it's not vital to status to resolve all the remaining questions before that because you could also Send them a version of the brochure that removes the potentially contentious points. Yeah, I just send that now today Yeah, that's true. So again, I had already talked about this that the most of the contentious things have been removed Well, I don't I've not I can say I've not had time to look at that recent version I looked at the original on the discussions. I've not had time to So most of the most contentious stuff has been removed. There's still some stuff in there I do want to quickly resonate that in the room the individual points But we already talked about that we could actually have the version one right now or the zero And then we can make two forms of changes. We can add perks and sell them later Although that is a little bit of a problem because maybe the first sponsor wanted to do the content The sponsors can always ask for something personalized. It's not in the brochure anyway. So it's not that's true That's true. They've we've never done this before though. They have we have done special things for you just one Right, but we've no different versions, but right and we can also if we modify the brochure Maybe slightly the wording we could potentially actually increase the levels later. We see we can't ever decrease them So yes, we can we can take whatever we have and have potentially a minimal minimal version and push that out but I don't think we're very far from I'm having something that at least the people that have been working on it Comfortable with and hopefully other people can be persuaded and I will quickly summarize what the contents of the brochure is it is based on the DC 13 brochure and We did change a little bit the contents of the text or rephrased it a little bit which also I think fresh is enough a little you know the sponsor seed every year again and We did remove for instance Debbie and Dave because we would like to have an open weekend on the first weekend The entire weekend open, but that's a surely to be discussed how exactly I do that We are going to offer a supporter of bronze silver gold and platinum the standard levels and there's been a little bit of a Back and forth on how expensive they should actually be Not as of late our last last proposal is that we should have the bronze level started Which is a step up Which is a step up big step up from DC 13 Then have the silver the silver level be five thousand ten thousand and twenty thousand basically a very nicely times two numbers Which all together is more or less the same as DC 13 So basically we pushed up bronze and the reason why in the end I wanted to raise them up more Because I think there's potential for that but with the perks that we offer I think that maybe it's going to pan out Anyway, so what are some of these perks that we offer and what are the contentious ones? Can I give me the URL design? You can use this for that Okay, so there there are two classes of perks that we would like to think about consider one of them is three classes actually one of them is Events and and aspects of the conference that we offer anyway and would like to give a sponsor the possibility to adopt the second class is events or Perks that are not necessary, but we would like to give a sponsor the opportunity to do to give for instance Provide coffee to all of the people You are a coffee geek And then there is also the idea of having booths for sponsors, especially when we have an opening weekend allowing sponsors to present themselves and Also have something that we refer to as a job fair, which is basically removed from all the Where all the people are a little bit further back into a room allowing sponsors to actually engage in direct conversation with potential candidates But they would like to hire in combination also with it with a job board So the the questions are a little bit. Can we imagine having sponsored booths? Do we think that a job fair is an idea that could take off and then? the Yeah, I'm going down And then the additional sponsoring opportunities which at the moment are That we would like to offer the conference dinner, which is certainly the biggest expense in the sense That we would like to offer It doesn't necessarily be this big size room to actually let it anyway carry on. No, I'm ruling board obviously But even day trip can be more of someone sure. Okay, so day trip and conference dinner How the first two anyway? And there's a little bit of a description like a marketing type description of why this would be a cool thing to contribute Snacks and beverages basically the subsidy of the of the bar, which I think we're gonna have to do it 15 and she's in wine party The venue has agreed finally to let us do that on site, but they're gonna charge us to 50 per person and Two euros 50 or 250 euros It's not much money. Yeah, it's not much money, but then we get glass we get wine glasses we get cutlery they clean up Yeah, it's not not too bad. We would like to save that money obviously by cleaning up ourselves and so on But if we can't do it Money yeah, but we get if we get a sponsor to pay for that. It's really cheap. Well, yeah There's also coffee which I mentioned already and then there are two new ideas that Considered in the past, but one of them is that we have lecturing meeting rooms, right? For instance right now. We're sitting in room 329. I Think this is a highly contentious issue. I think that if this room were called the Intel room Let's see And that's the Google room and so on and so forth and Intel gave us two thousand dollars to do that Yeah, I like that thinking. No, it's not enough absolutely correct But just for the sake of argument, let's pick a number and then that would certainly, you know Rub some people badly. We think that this over commercializes the content that the conference promotes free software It all of that is absolutely true But it does get us money and it is not really changing the Feel the sort of like the conference content, you know Anyway, that's one of the ideas There's the same idea for that camp or that camp hack days that individual companies can sponsor these days and then there the final point is something that I've seen in a couple of conferences, which I like very much is Lottery prices to be given out And that is often combined with sort of like the homeroom assemblies in the morning Prior to the first talk whenever that may be You just assemble all together for 20 minutes and that is a time for the organizers to spread important announcements For instance about today and she's in wine party today and in order to entice people to come to these events A price is given out To you know, yeah, and it would go like this It would be like yeah, Tiago won this price and then Tiago wouldn't stand up, right? And then Tiago wouldn't like that very much when he later found out. Oh hi Tiago And then it would just go on and so somebody in the room took it and that's been tablets and laptops and everything This is just an idea out there whether we want this homeroom assembly and whether we could benefit from it so question comments My comment is Mostly this room something I mean, I'm very worried about this in the sense that Now I see it also that for example you have these busy schedule thing and I see say next session is blah blah blah And then it says next session in the interroom and it's really a face In general if We put it somewhere in the Corner So I Think anything which people really have to interact with That's why we also consider having these booths or the job fair really only on the open weekend and Well the place where this is and people don't like it don't actually have to go there Maybe this is already too much in the face And but I'm generally thinking that Once it's so visible to everybody it really Can Let people not come. We already talked with somebody who said probably somebody didn't come because there's And That's a very sensitive to say, okay Provider When when a room has a name of a sponsor it's it's part of their identity of the conference I think it's too much. I think there's no price It's not that it's not enough for me. It has no price because That call is not Intel or Google or HP. I know they are providing the resources, but it's something I wouldn't put I wouldn't offer as as That come has something that is different from other technical Yeah Just say are they arguments from people here for this like that we could make it happen. I mean, I think Considering what's been said and also considering what he just said is kind of what I was thinking or maybe to see. I'm sorry. I Think that there was kind of a middle ground it can be found because I mean I definitely agree that the identity of Debian and like our dev comp and like Like how we're different than other countries or whatever it's it's worth a worthwhile thing to consider but I also think that you know corporate sponsorship is nice for the long-term growth of our conference as well as much as we dislike the possibility of becoming intertwined with you know capitalistic Groups it's something worth considering for long-term growth, but I think having you know the That was an idea on the small term is that I know the Freiburg room You know sponsored by Intel and in the IRC it says coming up in 10 minutes in the Freiburg room is blah blah blah and It just says sponsored by Intel somewhere in the room I feel like that's something that is sponsored be willing to pay for and also doesn't you know shove it in your face like because It already says literally says Intel right there if it just had the words in black text sponsored for this room sponsored by above it How do you do it if Intel is the platinum sponsor that we promised to put in all the banners and then My gore consulting company decides this I was just saying you can't not IRC so that what should not Mention the sponsor. They were worried on these things is that this much is much higher level on the perks in general that We have we have actually tried all these were not all these specific ones We have tried most of these similar things to most of these in the past not the rooms But trying to get people to sponsor particular events and so on. There's two things one is that they're Most of the time the sponsors will not have not really responded that much on them So there's a day and the other aspect though is that people have had Problems in designing a way to make it work That doesn't make it much easier to get a high profile by paying a small amount of money for a particular event Then by giving us money we can actually spend on the core things Paying safe. I mean so for example the cheese and wine thing say if you want something to allow them to sponsor that you basically Need to make it. They're not just paying for the cheese and wine, but they actually pay 20 times the price or something. Yeah, so that you get enough money to Actually cover the core cost of culmination of food and so on The danger then is that that's not an interesting opportunity to them to Rising it's gonna be really hard. So the question is at the moment. We actually have had we have problems already to negotiate sensibly with the sponsors and to Get those conversations to happen. I don't really see that we have at the moment the manpower and experienced salespeople to push Some push sponsors to do these things in addition to their current levels I think in principle if you had expert sales people you can do that You get them to sign up at some level and on top you say why do you also sponsor this and keep on phoning them up every week until they agree That's what you need to do. I mean we had in the past some when we had a much smaller team We had Andreas actually did some of this and he was literally phoning people up every day until they Said yes. Yes, I was fun to you But most people in there beyond and not yeah, I was not and not really willing to To behave that way and we don't have a moment. We have a shortage of people to do it So at the problem is at the moment we we do get enough money by doing the kind of simple thing So we just make it a simple decision for them. What level are you taking we get an answer back and we Eventually write an invoice and we eventually realize we've got the money and so on if we make this much more complicated Firstly designing it actually shouldn't really need someone with more experience than most of us have on this kind of stuff Yeah, to actually get it right And then secondly it needs a genuine sales effort and discussions and not just sending a brochure and waiting for them to respond I completely agree with both of these points the design I envision it at the moment is that there's always a fallback if we don't sell any of these perks Because the sponsors chose to stay with a simple level that they know from the last year Which don't change very much then as long as we get enough money We're just gonna pick them are so the danger the other way around that the money just comes Because the perks are only available to sponsors at levels. Yeah Yeah Again, it depends how you design it We have had we have tried to design stuff for me We have said we have tried to sell these parks with limited excess and so on we have had particular events once my sponsors before There's a so the general principle is not something is something the team has already accepted to have a particular party Sponsored by someone or whatever that is actually something we have done before it's not a it shouldn't be content just because it's already existing practice The question is the question is here if you're trying to push this is a big aspect which it sounded like then It's just a bit dangerous into relation to our Availability of manpower and our experience actually getting it right. I just have a worry that we will Make some we won't quite realize the implications correctly until we realize we've only got half the money because actually although They all paid for a park they went in at one level below and to pay for a park Yeah, but then the burgers paid for it. It depends Yeah, but the main cost of food accommodation and travel Right much much huge We're talking about a gold sponsor at ten thousand who decides to go five thousand silver plus conference dinner Then we get five thousand plus the entire organization of the conference dinner So we don't actually have to worry about the conference dinner. We can take that out of the budget Basically again, I don't in principle disagree with selling these I just think it's it needs a lot of time and thought to exactly get to get those right and to be considering What again, basically one of these thought experiments needs to be done is what if every sponsor goes one level below and Pays for a small perk on top. Yeah, there are not that many perks They're not that many So just one question there because maybe you know when we last did it Sponsors to pay for events did we How much 20 times just said well, no previously we have not done that properly I mean, I have not done it correctly in fact for this stuff in all for There's a lot of Most of the specific stuff at the moment We basically just let them pay the price which doesn't make sense So we thought about like twice at least The real cost of the cheese and white like the the exposure cost is many thousands And it depends on the exposure as it's very difficult question We can there's a fundraising off right up. I said 20 times because it's 250 time to 2 euros 58 times 400 Yeah, it was anyway I would like to We have at least I am Connie who Who has experience in with first-come sponsorship? Yeah, when I say experience in that I really mean someone who's work commercially in the area I think I don't know. She's a marketing person and she does fundraising And we've talked about this and I think the important consideration is that if we come up with As a system by which we minimize the risk that we're going to get less money than we would have And if we ensure that the core conference with all the things that we expect from it including conference dinner day trip and cheese and wine party and subsidized bar and so on and so forth If we can kind of come up with that then I firmly believe we should try it But how do you know that? Just by that's a thought experiment and I think that if we if we're smart about it We can put this in place and possibly make mistakes for DC 15 As long as they are not going to threaten the core conference So what is the aim as well? What is the aim? Because we know we get enough money to pay for DEF CON The aim is to Be able to fly more people to DEF CON to offer more at DEF CON Well this year we had a surplus of quite a few thousands. That's because Our adversaries team started work seven weeks before the conference. Yes, so if we Raise the same amount of money Except we actually start out as we get a bit more and we run bursaries and other things better. Yeah, we already have enough to Excuse me, but SD extra wouldn't be fine more people No, but the day trip conference dinner like all the points that you mentioned like so the idea is to get more money so Don't you worry we can spend it But I mean what are you going to be sold? It's not really The question is actually getting more. It's not clear we get more money from it. Even if it is it worth it to have this is it worth it that the value of This explosion is is worth it. What are we going to get? Huge or perfect conference dinner or day trip I I'm not sure if I see your point and I think that the But I'm probably sure that everyone in this room agrees that there comes a point Um at which you sold out too much Right and that is incredibly difficult to find that everybody will disagree on where exactly that point is But I think we all agree that there comes a point or there is a point at some point in time Where the conference has sold its soul Right and I think that we we are I personally think we are not at that point and not close to that point I think there is potential of going a little bit more giving a little bit more exposure to people in certain ways And in return getting more money and that money How we use it Whether we use it for additional travel whether we use it for additional offerings at the conference whether we put it Into a fund such that we already have all the money for dc 16 right now And we can do the sponsorship work for dc 17 during dc 16 These are all possibilities that I think we can then worry about as long as we don't sell the soul