 It's still plus politics, and we have been talking about Nigeria's debt profile. Now, let me come back to you, Gospel. Let's talk about state budgets. Now state governors have continuously had humongous budgets. Sometimes, some of these budgets are christened with the most ridiculous names. Take for example, the government of Cross River. They have the most interesting names for their budget. And for a state like Cross River, whose main state is supposedly agriculture, but then so far, the profits or rather the return on the investment in agriculture has not been so great. Being that the state is also somewhat in quote, a civil service state, the amount of money that these budgets are pegged at sometimes are ridiculous. And just like Alesta said, who's probing, who's asking the questions? Again, we have other things, other subheads that monies go to and these monies are not accounted for. For example, we have security votes. Who's to say how much is given? How much is expended on security, et cetera, et cetera. Now that we are saying we want a better Nigeria, we want good governance, should these conversations not be on the table? Yes, I agree that these conversations should be on the table and it's quite worrisome. In my own opinion, I do not, a lot of states in Nigeria are currently not commercially viable. I mean, not just commercially viable. And also if you just suppose that the fact that there is a huge public leadership deficit in Nigeria, that's to tell you that many state governments do not have the vision to transform their states into solid economic hubs. Most states have a lot of raw materials, natural resources right there, within that context. But then again, it requires the regional leadership to take that and transform that as solid exchange block to drive growth and development in the state and even regional competitiveness. But then that price heavily on public leadership and the vision of these states. So we've not seen that to a very large extent and on the other hand of things, there are no strategic civil service groups or any form of citizen agenda that is a lot towards accountability. I want to say accountability. We don't mean shouting or tweeting or trying to tag somebody and you're making some hell of noise. We're talking about some intelligent advocates. How much of evidence-based efforts are being plugged into measuring government efforts? If a particular governor comes and says that he spent x, y, z billions of naira trillions in the past x, y, z years, in agriculture, for instance, are civil service, sorry, are civil pressure groups or even NGO's or show enterprises going to measure to tell us, oh, this is not true. This is actually how much was invested. This is actually where the money is invested. This is why we have this gap. This is why money, this is a player for the money, there's so much impact and all that. So until we have a very comprehensive, institutional, intelligent advocacy for cost, citizenry and its pressure groups as it were, we may not be truly be able to hold government accountable, meaning for you whether it's a public leadership deficit in Nigeria. And we're trained as number five and provide for a long time. You have about 36 states and almost 50 to 60 percent. I mean, only Lagos and River State contribute 65 percent of VAT share to the central government. That's so ridiculous when you have about 36 states. So it's worrisome and because you don't have development or the form of growth or productivity in these states, it affects everything, including debt, in terms of debt profiling, in terms of a bit to repay back this debt. Let's not forget that during COVID and all of those period, the central bank had to step in to bail out some states and all of that. And that culture is going to continue because it's primarily based on the root causal challenge of the public leadership deficit. Just to play some role, play the role of a devil's advocate on this issue. We have some civil society groups. The likes of CERAP have continuously questioned government on monies that are not necessarily well spent or monies that have disappeared. We must give it to the likes of CERAP. There's also followed the money with CODE. We also have, I think, budgets and some other civil society groups. But then I know that what you're talking about, concerted efforts and more strategic plans towards checking governance. That's very good. But let's talk about the issue of states still going cap in hand to the federal government every single time to get monies to run their own. There was a time that we brought the issue of restructuring and it seemed to have been a campaign tool, but where is it now? It's obviously on the back burner. Should we still be sustaining that conversation? Because if you're saying that many states are not even commercially viable, why are we still talking about having across the board pay for, let's say, civil servants as we're on strike? We know so many issues. For example, in Abia State, the government is still owing resident doctors. For one year, they've been on strike for a year and this is also a result of the fact that some of these states are unable to pay these monies across the board. Shouldn't we be changing the tide of this conversation? Yeah. I mean, I won't say states are not economically viable. It doesn't mean that they don't have economic potential. They do have economic potential, but that potential has not been transformed to some form of a competitive block to do business, to thrive, to scale productivity and prosperity at large. Yes, a lot more can be done. You know, like as you rightly mentioned, a lot more can be done. Many states are still very dependent on the central government for these things. And then again, the restructuring conversations on the table. Should that conversation continue? Yes. Yes, because that's the only way around through which many questions around social inclusion, around prosperity, shared prosperity and sustainability will thrive. Anything other than that is just a waste of time of conversation in the real world. Because the current state of extracted institutions, which is counter the restructuring efforts are not yet who was wasted. Extracted institution economics will always fund waste in a bid to secure monies and control and power towards a critical minority. And that's what's happening right now. In fact, the idea of funding or conceptualizing VAT at the federal level is also some form of, I mean, it still patterns after extracted institutions. So until we begin to think about restructuring, constitutional reviews and all of these things, we may not be able to really, really put responsibility in the hands of state government. And until responsibility gets into the hands of state government, in many cases, we will not be able to hold them accountable or channel the right questions around regional competitiveness or state competitiveness to a very large extent. I believe that 36 states in one, in the other side of things, holds huge economic power for us to do more for ourselves as a state and as a nation. But again, that is heavily on public leadership. And I think a lot more numbers of NGOs need to arise to tackle more strategic blocks of this conversation. We have NGOs in security, we have NGOs in economic policy, we have NGOs in healthcare and all of these things. We don't want to just scratch the surface at all. So we're technically joking with the currency of things. And until this is fundamentally changed at the structural level with the restructuring conversation, I don't think we're going to take up at all. Alastair, how do we make sure that the issue of restructuring the conversation does not become very politicized? Because like I said, it seems like the issue of restructuring comes up when we're trying to run for elections. And then it's like a slogan of sorts or something that we use to try to get the people to come out and vote. And right after that, it's shelved. Again, if we do really get to the meat of restructuring, will this one way or the other shed the weight of unnecessary people running for offices, especially when they know that they do not have what it takes to run that state? Well, I'm not a proprietor of restructuring noise. Just like you said, restructuring, if you ask 10 people talking about restructuring, these 10 different things that restructuring means to them. So until I get a clear understanding of what aspect of restructuring we're talking about, what people always talk is resource control, and that lies heavily on maybe states within the south-south, who thinks that the oil resources that they think is the major economy should be in their control. When you talk about restructuring, that's what everyone talks about. But of course, even within the south-south that talks about restructuring, if you understand, we are not, and that resource was also have eight different aspects of what restructuring means. So I am not caught up in that trouble. I will talk, I will really address, or let me tell you what my colleague just said about states. States run as emperors in this country. I mean, the state, the state run are more powerful than the president of this country within their domain. So they run, I mean, on a free will with respect to accountability, with respect to public morality, with respect to governance and governance structure. We discover that state governments are, like I call emperors, the main checks and balances within the states, which is the legislature and the judiciary, how many states have effective legislature. Now, if we run with effective legislature, how can civil society thrive? Because the legislature is the biggest civil society check on the executive. And if you discover that, what happens at the federal level, it doesn't happen at the state level. Sometimes we focus our attention, and that's also why you would argue with me, I'm always calling the state, the media, to account for some of these lapses, because they will also be able to focus on what happens with the federal government and leave the states. And the states are running, I mean, they run the show, you know, I mean, they run the show, the domestic show. They run with the fragment for the price of garay, the price of tomato, the price of yam. We run the state, the government, whoever the states are running. Now, the state has no effective judiciary. The chief judge of the state also, it's not part of the government. A government can look up and shut down courts in Nigeria. It has happened several times. A government can look up and move and see a chief judge, and nothing will happen. The government can look up and shut down courts for assembly. Everybody has to contest the election to be a member of the House of Assembly is the governor crony. And that is why the governors make sure that they win all the seats in the House of Assembly and not even talk about local government, which is supposed to be a strong arm of the federation, I mean, for the discussion. That don't no longer exist, because the governors, now run the local government at the deep feet. So, at the point where the governors are not accountable, and they are not, I've only made a few states, maybe states like Lagos, that people still have an eye because of the responsibility of nature, that people still have an eye and can do, which other states can boost up and affect the legislature. A governor will submit a budget to the state assembly on Monday, and by Monday the budget is passed and is signed. And he will implement the budget. He doesn't go back to tell them how it is limited. So, and then, within the states, the opinion holders, the opinion and critical opinion holders, that's even in the civil society now. And both the opinion holders, where are they? They are already the pockets of the governors. So long as you have been settled, so long as you are fair share of the booty is being given, you keep quiet. And so it's going at the state. People, especially down south, people are, everybody wanting to become, to be the friends, to be close to the state government. Look, I visited the local government, my local government the other day, and I found people milling, every time they can milling, I run the chairman's office. And when I look at these people, and I ask some few questions, they didn't go for any reasonable proposal, they didn't have anything to, any proposal on what would better make anybody, they are only looking for handouts. And of course, what the local government chairman would do, he would just give handouts, and people would just clap for him, and say, this is a good man, this is a good woman. And so the citizenry with the photosystem is suspect. So when the photosystem is suspect, and not because they are poor, and I don't buy this property, property analysis, it is poor, you know, if you are poor, it is a metal, it is a metal that they are poor. So I'm not buying this property, the poor cannot feed and I don't buy that narrative. I don't buy, I don't come from a rich home. I mean, I know what I went through, I saw firewood in the streets of Potatak, I saw park, it is a potatak house, for me to get to where I am today. So property is not a strange phenomenon. But you see, dignity, dignity is all, hard work is all, these people are not going to work, they want free peace, they want handouts, and so they use the cloak of, oh, the poor cannot feed. So you say they are bad friends, and they don't want no value. All right. I want to come back, I want to come back to you. All right. I understand. I don't want us, yeah, I don't want us to vary. If I want to come back to my question, because I think you did not like the idea of restructuring, but if we all stock to the economic viability of states, every single state in this country has one mineral resources, the other. If we all decide that we look within and see how viable we are, I ask a simple question, will that reduce the number of funny people running for office? No, it will not. As a matter of fact, if there is critical thinking, like you said, if there is critical thinking about exploration, about production in each state, not even, not even living around. California do not have mineral resources. California is not Texas. California is not, what do you call it? It's not one of the states in the U.S. that has mineral resources. California is a tech-based state. I mean, I wouldn't say the few, but it is one of the top 10 largest economies of the world. Now, I remember when Dr. Bonner Ono was running for Donald Trump, he talked about tech hope, because this is a man I met in Warsaw for that point. He's a professor, he's a son, a professor of engineering, and he talked about tech hope in Abia. When he was running for office in 1991, I remember vividly, because he taught me one of my DGS course about technology. These are people that have it, but when he become government of Abia, how did he translate it? Although a time was short, he spent just 22 months as government of Abia. How did he translate it? Now, today we would not want to hear the truth about Lagos. Do we see how Lagos is progressing? Do we see how Bad Beach was tamed? I'm not campaigning. But you see, these are critical thinking of what people can go to do in government and sustain over a period of time. Now, states like, states like Echiti, and states like Echiti, with all the intellectual, it's the intellectual warehouse of Nigeria, in terms of the number of intellectual professors that are developed in that state. Since they are speaking in that state, has no business with poverty, but that's one of the poorest states, that's one of the states with the least IGRO in fact in the country. States like Osho, I'm coming, States like Osho, that should be sitting pretty heavy on agricultural production, and other smaller minerals. Now, the argument would be the fragment is holding to that. But nothing stops you from seeking license from the fragment to invest and explore mineral resources. Nothing stops you from doing that. So there are excuses for failure. But these excuses, the press and we, the analysts, have to reinforce them. But as well as consent, these are leg excuses that makes people to see free money in what comes from deflation accounts and VAT, and they're not capability, no measurement criteria for the state. All right, thank you Alasdair. Thank you Alasdair, thank you, thank you. Gospel, let me come back to you as we round up this conversation. Three point six five billion dollars a batch of loot was recovered by our federal government in 24 years. Now most of those payments came under the Bahá'í administration, and we've seen more and more of these monies come in. The question many people have asked is, where did these monies go? At some point the federal government said they were going to use some of it to complete the, I think, Kaduna highway, if I'm not mistaken, and some other, you know, infrastructural project. But then we keep continuously borrowing to fund our budgets. So where does the money go? And finally, are you sure that we will ever be able to have this conversation about states looking within and, you know, becoming economically viable? Being that many countries in the world have moved beyond fossil fuel, now we're talking green energy, we're talking alternative sources of energy, we're seeing electric cars, especially in the UK and in Europe. And Nigeria is still here, grappling, we're still dealing, for example, in river states with the illegal refineries that are causing some health hazards, gas flaring, even though there's been a law against it, the federal government and these international oil companies still doing some kickbacks and cutting deals here and there. Will we ever be able to go beyond this and have realistic conversations that will help us play catch up with the rest of the world? Thank you very much, Marianne. One of the biggest worries of our time, you know, especially for developing economies, not just in Nigeria and Finland and only, is the fact that extractive institutions are really thriving hard. And that means that, so take for instance, now outside this abattollum conversation, you want to also ask yourself, when subsidy was taken out and a number of those things were moderated in Jonathan's era and Shopee was created, you know, how many persons really benefited from that program? You know, there's so many questions around how public finances are being spent and people do not know exactly where these monies are spent and who to hold accountable, you know, what projects, what policy drives, what, what, so what policy initiatives, you know, which sectors, you know, are beneficiaries of these monies and all that. So I think that the core is not just the fact that probably a government institution doesn't want to spend those monies or be open about it. I just think it's a cultural thing to believe that, you know, you owe nobody an explanation around how these monies should be spent or where they're being spent. Let's not forget that we've seen that again replay in one way or the other ahead of these elections, you know, institutions or people who believe that they do not have to attend a presidential or a gubernatorial debate, you know, people like that should not even have any business to do with public office in the first place because that's a sign to show that they would not be accountable to the people. So these are big, they bother having you on their accountability questions and transparency questions on the extractively strong questions of our time. Then also that same narrative and ideology is what has also hampered Nigeria from moving forward into the green energy or the climate and, you know, sustainability conversation of our time. You know, a lot of people, if you look at the construct of the Nigerian oil and gas, it is designed to continue that way, meaning that one of the major reasons why power has not been fixed today in Nigeria is because a lot of people are mixed from some minority are making a lot of money from the oil and gas block, you know, so I'm trying to, so once Nigerians have access to power, it means that people buy less fuel, less fuel, you know, business will buy less diesel and the likes and all the marketers will be out of business. All right, so the extraction issue or the economics of a fuel have designed in such a way that you do want to be accountable to anybody. At the same time, you also want to hijack economic resources so that it's not made available to a critical mass, you know, who need that opportunity to further prosper. I didn't even know what I'm trying to say. So until these legs of extraction issues are swept off the table, you know, we are not more forward thinking disruptive leadership, you know, in a much more inclusive focus, but I don't think that there's any progress going forward within this conversation. All right, I want to say thank you for being part of the conversation, gentlemen. Dr. Muda Yusuf is the director center for the promotion of private enterprise and also Alesta Wilcox is a chartered accountant. He is the head of ICANN here in Lagos and Gospel of Belia is the chief economist of Streetonomics Limited. Thank you so much, gentlemen, very interesting conversation. And I don't think we should stop having these kinds of conversations. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, that's it on plus politics tonight. We leave you with the highlights of this week's conversations in case you missed it from Monday up until Thursday. I am Mary Anacorn. Don't forget, go get your PVC because that's your passport to a new Nigeria. And don't forget, you can go to your ward, the ward that is closest to you, where you registered and pick up your PVC. You do not have to go to the local government's headquarters until January 15th. Have a good night. We want to win the election. No party wants to do away with the governance of such kind of high-care bar leaders. So we want to win the election, but we say when you go to, where you interrogate what is behind this, I think there is much more that behind why they are incarcerated. The point is this, in G5, I believe, led by Governor Wike, who is also a family member I'll call him because PDP is family, I believe there's something behind it. It's a situation whereby we are trying to even move away from post-safew care. And Nigeria, as a country, has not even been able to actualize itself in terms of really being able to maximize the food safety that is found under its soil. Then if it becomes a problem, Nigeria has not been able to refine products that can be used locally. Today when we talk about oil theft in the Niger Delta and some of these issues that are going on like corruption in this sector, there are ways that we can fight and win this war. But then, the followers and the leader, they have a role to play. But more power is there in the hands of the leaders who need to summon the political will to be able to drive this problem. For example, we are talking about addressing food oil theft in the Niger Delta. We are talking about how to bring about the modular refinery that should be able to address this issue to minimize food oil theft and environmental pollution, including soot that we suffer. Government is not giving it attention. What does it take for them to drive that process? We have also proposed this presidential artisanal crude oil refining development initiative, which is a way of legalizing artisanal refining after modifying it to be more environmental friendly. Government is also taking step, but nothing has been done so far to address it. We need to be able to address this issue in a way that when the citizens suggest ways of addressing it, we have experts in the oil and gas industry, we put our heads together to see how we can address our problem. It is only when we can do this that we can look at a holistic and collective solution to the problem. But when we fail to address this problem, because our leaders are also not being able to drive the process of addressing the problem, then I think we'll be having the issue that we are having at an a bit not subside. So we need to be able to see how we can work together, synergize to address the problem that we have in the oil and gas sector. Corruption is one of the things that is driving this process, and we need to see how we can collectively fight all these issues that we have so that we can address the issues in the oil and gas sector, move the country from post-safety to clean and renewable energy and agriculture for us to have a better nation and better empire. They are from one section of the country that does not even feel the pain that we are feeling here. All of them have refineries in neighboring countries. They are the people bringing in these vessels to see crude oil to these refineries, refine the crude and say it at cultural prices to Nigeria. They own the refineries around. So they will never allow refineries in Nigeria to work. They will not allow the people to have electricity, because they are the people important generators into this country, and the people have just become their market. They want to see every person dead. And it is so sad that they continue to amass wealth, because that is money, money that they will not even spend. They continue to steal and supply money. Some are buried in places they don't even know again. So you are dealing with daylight robbers who know exactly what they are doing. They are not, they are thieves. They know what they are doing. Okay. Not that they don't know that the refineries will not be working. No. They don't allow those people, they are paid salaries so that, you know, be not like, like, I give you my share. You have my share now, all the, but you give me one button. What they are giving to those workers, I don't want