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But I have fun on the peripheral things around it, like first night as soon as we landed. 15 of the speakers are just sitting around the bar having a drink, talking up. And there's always a couple empty chairs, so some of the speakers would come down. And it's kind of neat, because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day, but you never see one where the guy is sitting like you have Joe Navarro, and just having a speech about the FBI. And you can come sit down and chill with him. But here, you can just see Ed Latimore talking to Tanner about boxing. You sit down, and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other. It's nice. It's so funny how people come off on social media is different than how they come off in person. Has anyone said to you that you look different than what they thought, or you appear different, or is there anything like that? The funny thing is, nobody knows I'm Canadian. Like you're from Canada? I'm like, yes, bud. I play out the accent a little bit. But I guess that's the thing for everybody, right? You just assume everybody else is American. Yeah, exactly. But then I'll always have some weird things. I keep calling Rolos had a two, because nobody knows what that means. I think that's the big one. That and their surprise that I swear as much as I do on social media in real life. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. That's funny. For yourself, what would you say was a turnaround point? There's a lot of people that seek out your information. What do you think makes you the authority, the expert on your content? What is it experience? Is it study? What do you think? I wish I had an answer for you. I have no idea why people listen to me around my talk. I truly don't. I have thought about this. I really have. I remember for the first year with Rolos, I was asking them, why did you even bring me to 21 convention? And the best answer I could think of was just because I was the only one to try, I guess. OK. As far as the expert stuff, I don't even think about it that way. For me, it's like I was saying in the speech where I just write things down so I can figure out what I was doing, like an after-action report. If somebody else learns from it, great. But I mean, you don't have to. And so as far as an expertise in that, I don't think of it that way. I'm just can't really tell me that my experience was wrong. Like, I was there. I saw most of it from what I remember. I might have missed a couple of details. I got a little blocked out there for a bit. There are many guys. I get here pretty early in the week. And there are men intermittently saying, I can't wait to meet Ryan Stone. Are they really saying that? Yeah, they are saying that. Oh, those poor guys. And what's interesting is you're touching people. You're moving people in ways that you don't realize. Oh, 100%. Actually, yeah, good story on that. It was a guy who was last year at the convention. And he was kind of out of weight. And he was really passive. He couldn't even keep eye contact when he's talking to people. It was so weird. And then I saw him this year, he'd bulge right up. Like, he was filling out a suit pretty well. He was dressed nice. He was having decent conversations. And I guess, I mean, I can't take credit for that because a lot of it was Goldman, I guess, getting him on his, like, heroes thing on mushrooms and that. But it's really neat seeing, like, guys you're recognizing and they're progressing. Wow, I'm going to tell Rich Cooper that you said that about him. That's awesome. That's great. How are things on stage for you? I mean, like you say, like, the stage really isn't your thing. But my God, you control your frame on that stage. And I'm not there for the whole time. I stand in the back. And when you move, I watch all heads, like, moving at the same time. And I know, when I'm up on stage, you can't really see anything beyond, like, maybe the first or second row, yeah, because of the lights and so forth. But they were glued on you today. Absolutely glued. And I like the one fellow's comment about your graphics as far as they weren't overwhelming. It wasn't just like bullet point after bullet point and 12 point font. It was just like narcissism, you know, like, were, it reminded me of a Van Halen video from like the early 90s. I think the song was called Right Now, where they would just put the big words on the videos when Sammy Hagar was with Van Halen. And it made sense. It wasn't overwhelming text, but it was powerful. And I think that method was so, because everyone else is gonna make it look like an outline and you just did like these one word things. And that's from my time when I was teaching in Fleet School. I hated PowerPoints. I'm like, why are you reading this when you should be listening to me? I'm not standing. I actually didn't have one. I did that the night before. I thought, oh, I should have something up there. And I remember I was watching a lot of them and they're kind of like that same blue background of the stage. The text, you can't really read from the thing. So I'm like, what's the point of this? And so I'm like, it's actually, it was more a tool for me. I'm like, I gotta remember to keep on topic. So I put the, that's like the main topic points there. And then Rich and I were kind of talking about it after. He goes, yeah, it's like Steve Jobs said, if you have to have a PowerPoint to do your point, then you don't know what you're talking about in that. But mostly, yeah, at Fleet School, I just hated PowerPoints. I never used them. That's actually my first PowerPoint I've done in probably 15 years. Wow. I hate them that much. Wow. You talked about frame. There are people who are listening to this kind of content for the first time. How would you define frame? Narcissism. I should probably expand on that answer. It's narcissism. Like I was looking it up and like I said, I really was, that's took me about a year to kind of figure out as much as like, I still don't know enough. Like Dr. Smith is probably sitting back there, shaking his head going, why does he even pretend to go to school for this stuff? Cause you read up on it. And it's the exact same thing that you see when people are talking about frame and how frame works, it's you're being impulsive, you're being a narcissist. And then it just made perfect sense. And especially when you read up on Vinkatesh Rao, when I was talking to him, like Tempo, the Dervais principle, that's slightly evil, he was doing a lot of narrative based decision making. And then when he did that, it kind of all clicked that narcissism is like a narrative. So if you think of your life as a story, you're the central character and everybody else is a prop. How is frame important outside of intergender relationships? It's the only, it's, it grounds all your decisions. Like for example, if you have no frame, then you're going to be passive, you're going to be conflict avoidant and somebody's going to bull you into something. You didn't want to do it, but they did. But if you got frame, people don't really push you around. They tend to go for soft targets anyway. So you don't even have to worry about it. Or at the job, if your boss is crapping on you, like I used to get yelled at a lot in the military, everybody gets yelled at. But a lot of the times, like you can take it without frame to the point where you get offended, you get all amped up, you get nervous. And then you start screwing up even more because you're nervous about it. Or you can be like, I guess I'll even use an example here. So I remember in school, my senior instructor, he was chewing me out for something. And, but he was chewing me out in front of the entire, the bullpen there, all the other teachers. And I'm like, you don't do that. It's praise in public, chastise in private. So as soon as he was done chewing me out, he went back into his office. I went back into his office and I gave him like a big speech. And it was the weirdest combination. Like first off, he was three ranks higher than me. And I'm giving him crap saying, look, I get it if I'm a bag of shit, that's fine, you can yell at me, don't be doing that in front of the guys. And I'm like, but it's like that little example of frame. And he did. He's like, all right, you're right. I got you on that one. And then because he's got frame too, he's like, I'll get my office. But yeah, it's nice. It just helps because so many things are just people afraid to make a decision. And if a guy has frame, it's easier just to pick something and go with it. For instance, let's say there's a bunch of content creators, influencers, all people who are all about frame in the same room. And they'd be maybe in Florida, for example. Yeah, possibly. How does that work? How does like everyone is all about frame? We all talk about frame. How does that work? Well, that's good. Cause the way guys organize, guys are kind of focused on doing things. They don't talk about interpersonal stuff. It's mostly they want to talk about the convention. They want to talk about masculinity, their own processes. So everybody's kind of, we're all working in the same direction. So in that case, everybody has their own frame, but they're all generally pointing in the same way. So it just kind of works. And that just set off an alarm by you saying that. Did you hear that? Yeah, that's a, yeah. I'm really not happy about that. I don't like that guy. So when, something just stood out. Which? Guys have to do things. Yeah, I hope so. They don't want to talk about things. They want to just do things. Tell them, like expand on that a little bit. I think this me not wanting to expand it, is kind of like the best example. Just doing things. How to explain it? Like the podcast, for example, we don't do a lot of prep talk beforehand. We don't like to talk too much about what we're gonna talk about. We just like going in there and doing it. So even when we're talking, it's like an action. And I don't know, best I've been able to do is like, when I talk, I try to put something actionable on it. So many words I have to do, but at the end of the day, if you're not doing anything with it, it's a waste of time. If I'm just sitting here talking, oh, Rich said this and Ed said that to him and that is gossipy. It just feels, I'm not comfortable with that. So I like it. I just think there's a natural thing. I probably can't articulate it. I'm mumbling and humming and hawing through this, but it's the best answer I can give, I guess. I think guys are more comfortable with silence than women are. We can give a nod to one another in a hallway and that's sufficient. Easily, yeah. We don't have to... Not even the nod, it's the reverse nod. Yeah, it's half a nod. Half a nod. And I think that's, you know, it's a, you know, the half nod of approval. It's the, you know, I hear you, I'm with you. Yeah, man, you look good. I mean, it's the... Yeah, what more needs to be said? Exactly. It reminds me of the word dude, where dude could be used in like 20 different ways. It'd be like dude or dude. It's like the multi-purpose word. I'm a different generation, I'm bra or bro. Oh, okay, right. Same thing, yeah. So when working with men and answering questions and or fielding questions, what do you find is the most common issue that men want help with in your work in the mannosphere? They want permission. So many times, guys would just ask me like, what do I do? And they completely transfer ownership of their life to a random person on the internet, where actually I'm actually a little more prickly than I am like in real life on the subreddit for that reason. Yeah. Cause most guys will come in there and they'll kind of half-ass explain a situation like what their wife did do or what she didn't do. And like I was saying before, it's all she statements. It's she's this, she's that. And we're like, well, what do you want? And then they won't have an answer for you. But what should I do? Like, well, what do you want to have happen? And that's the probably the most common thing. Guys are just completely directionless and they're just letting life happen. And so when the wife throws anything at them, they just crumble. And when you give somebody permission, what effect does that have on them? Usually they leave. Now, yeah, cause we've realized like it's... Do they get angry? Of course they get angry because you're like, I'm coming here and I'm asking for help. I'm expecting a handout. Why aren't you giving it to me? And we're like, we're going to take this as seriously as you do. Like these guys aren't getting paid to do it on Reddit. They're doing it because they enjoy helping or they want to teach because that's an easier way to understand what you're doing. Were you the person that said, we're here to tell you what you need, not what you want to hear, what you need to hear? That was SteelSharp and Steel, one of the users there. Cause he was talking about this. We had a couple of private conversations. I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to tell these guys. Like last year I did Dredd. Dredd was easy cause that's right on the side bar. This year and he's like, tell them what they need to hear. Now what they want to hear. Cause you're not the one selling anything. So I'm like, fair enough. And then it kind of all spiraled from there. Tell me the difference between what men need to hear and what they want to hear. Oh, that's easy. Guys want to hear that they're a real man. That whatever that means. And that's why so many guys get sold on stupid things. Like Twitch streamers, you notice how girls get all that money? It's not because they're getting naked. Yeah, they're showing off somebody, but they're basically just being nice to guys. Or one of the guys on the Redman group runs, we had a guest on there who ran a Camgirls site. And he was saying the Camgirls earn like 10 bucks a minute for doing their shows on the camera for the guys. But they'd earn like $100 a minute for just typing in a chat. So when the guys are sitting there and all they wanted to do is like, just tell their feelings to a girl and have her say, oh, that's fine. It's okay. You're a good man. Why is that? Why is there such a disparity? Mama's boys, I don't know. I'm guessing the divorce rate. I wish I could have underlying reasons. I'm not that smart. I just kind of, it's in front of me. So I just deal with it as it is. If I knew the underlying reasons, I'd be the guy with Rollo wearing a beanie on stage. Yeah. Talking about my fourth book, I guess. A beanie. Real quick, we'll wrap up with this. In the beginning of your speech, you talked about, you just ran off a whole bunch of phrases. Be a man, man up. And you just like, it was a roll of things that you said. Things that we all hear and see on the web. How useful are they? None, not at all. Absolutely nothing. There's empty problem. Like man up, bucko, man up. And you ever noticed that man up, whatever somebody needs from you at that moment, man up means doing that. Like it's so convenient. Oh yeah, a real man would pay for my hair. Like, really? Right. Yeah. And it was just, I just noticed there's this large collection of that stuff. And especially in the self-improvement spaces, guys tell you what you need to do. And it's always, like not like some women have actual bad behavior. And sometimes they need to be called down on it. But always blaming it on the guy for not working hard enough. Like you can try telling that to a guy who's been divorced and lost access to his kids. That, well, you just didn't man up enough. Like, fuck it, fucked. Yeah, that really helps, doesn't it? Yeah. There's a dude out there right now who needs permission. Right there? Of something. He's right there. He's in that camera there watching us. Give that guy permission that he needs. The married red pill seal of approval. Yeah. Honestly, man, it is so hard to die today in this world that you have to actively try for it. So just go do something. And when you fuck it up and you will, you'll learn from it and move on. And then by the 10th or 11th screw up, you'll get past it and you'll stop screwing up. There's your permission. That's all you need. Just don't be worried about, actually that's the second point too. All the things you're worried about, try writing them down. A lot of guys are worried about something but they can't articulate it. It's just this nebulous, well, I'm afraid if or I'm worried that but they never can get to the what that is. And I find a lot of guys once they write that down, like, well, I'm afraid of this and I'm worried about that. And then like, if that happened, could you live with that? And you're like, oh yeah, there's your permission. You did something in there where you said something like write down what you think. And then what's the next step after writing it down? Like acting? Well, acting on it, but mostly just reading through it. Because right now you think you know what you're doing in life. But you don't really. But when you write it down, you kind of have to actually remember details. And then you have to see like, what's the point of view of the story? If you're writing I as most of your stories premised then you're the central character. If you're writing like, well, she did this, she did that to me and she did that. You're living in somebody else's life. So for like in general, yes, you have to act on it. But for the purposes of what I was speaking there, it was just to be able to understand like how you're thinking about things. So you can at least change that mindset. How can people find more of your content? Easy, so we got the red man group on YouTube, that'll be, I think the channel's called Red Man Group or it's also the 21 convention. You'll have my Twitter bio which is underscore Ryan underscore stone. My Reddit handle is Ryan underscore stone. You'll see me on the red pill while it's still around and the married red pill. And then finally you have my blog which is ryanstonept at blogspot. Whichever country you wanna use. Excellent, all actionable information from the 21 report. This is George Bruno and I wanna thank ryanstone. Thank you, it's a pleasure to have you. Or pleasure to be here. That's twice I did that, I did that last year.