 Okay, welcome to Monday, March 20th, 2023, meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Benjamin Cheney, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Steve Everett, member. Martha Smirsky, member. Liz, member. Okay. At this point, we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. All right, so I'm going to be sharing my screen. Most of the stuff on the screen is for anybody who is watching via Orca Media, but there will be bits of information for everybody who's on remotely. There we go. So for anyone who is viewing this Design Review Committee meeting via Orca Media, you can participate in tonight's discussion via the Zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. To join the meeting through the internet, you can type this link into your web browser, and it will bring you right into Zoom, and I'll get a little notification to let you into the meeting room. 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Do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. And I'll second it. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. Ben. Martha. Steven. Liz, you're on mute. Yes. Okay, the agenda is approved. We can go to our first application for Five East State Street, owner Tim Heaney, applicant Alyssa Kipirana, I believe, is someone there. Yep. Hi. Go ahead and describe your application and sign for us. Sure. Yeah, so I am the new tenant at Five East State Street. I own a company called Vermont Dog Eats, and it's an organic dog treat manufacturer. And in addiction to the kitchen and production space that we've opened there, we're going to be opening a retail space up front this spring. And so what we've applied for is a sign that's going to be coming out above the door on East State Street there. And in the forms that I submitted, it kind of shows you the outline of the sign itself. So it's a two foot by two foot sign that would be approximately eight feet off of the sidewalk. So the standard clearance that's needed for that space. And there will be a metal bracket coming out of the brick there right above the doorway. And just for design review committee members that are here, I do have the paint chip for the sign. It's a slightly greener color than what shows up on that print out. So if anybody wants to look at it, it's color is dream I can fly. I can pass it around if you want to see. Oh, you're softly. Welcome, Mary. Alyssa, I noticed in your application that you said that you were projecting that you were anticipating putting lighting in, is that correct? Correct. Yep. So there would be probably one track light just pointing up at the sign from under. Okay. So had you talked to Audra about the lighting yet? I don't believe so. Okay. So lights can't point up. They can point down. Or lights, because this is a projecting sign, they do kind of backlit, so it would have to point down. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. And the light was something that was going to be after the sign anyway. I was going to be doing them simultaneously. So yeah, but you can get, if design review gives you sort of pre-approval parameters, then you don't necessarily have to come back here if they give you guidance on the fixture, as long as what you propose later for that light comes within those bounds. Gotcha. Then we can issue that permit without having you actually come back to the hearing. Okay, great. And one other question. I noticed that your application says something about the Zutano sign. Do you anticipate or are you projecting that you're going to change that at all? No, no. That was simply in reference to the other signage that's on that existing building. Because in the form it needed to, it asked essentially what other signage was currently existing on that same building. So it's around the corner from us, but the Zutano sign is the only other one that's currently up there. Okay. And you don't intend to put a sign up there as well? No. I'm assuming that you were looking to do lighting for a single fixture pointed at the sign aimed up East State Street as opposed to the other direction. Right. And I would recommend two things. Because of the snow that comes off of that roof. I would probably stay away from a goose neck hanging out. I would put a very small, a very small, like a small can spotlight that's mounted towards the, if you see the hood exhaust for the bakery. I would put it on that side of the sign aiming back. And again, I would use the smallest fixture that you can find tight to the building. It's not a large sign, so it won't take much to put a flood ball then to eliminate the sign. The other suggestion, and I'm not sure I see it on the application, is that the mounting bracket that mounts onto the building, the attachment needs to be in the mortar joints of the brick and not into the brick. And one suggestion that's at your option is that I saw the color you're using if you wanted to use that same color family and go darker, the darker your background against the white lettering makes the sign more readable from a longer distance because of the contrast. Right. And again, that would be at your option, but it would be definitely more readable from a distance. Yep, that's a good point. You also might think about putting a black line on the circumference of your sign. That depends, right? Yeah, make it look a little bit more finished. At your option. And my question goes to the lighting, which is more how you intend to get the wires to the fixture. I don't know if you've thought about that. If that's a surface mounted conduit that's coming from somewhere or whether there's a hole being drilled through the brick or how that was going to work out. Yeah, that's something I need to talk through with our electrician just to get a better sense of how that might work. Well, and we could, I mean, we can always, she wasn't necessarily applying for the lighting for this permit. So if the committee really wants to see those potential solutions, the light could come back. For a separate permit. And they're ready. That might not be a bad idea. Yeah. I mean, because you've got, you do have some decorative brickwork. I'm going to, Liz, do you want me to pull up a Google view of the side of the building for you so you can see as well? Oh, yes, please. Okay. I did look at the materials earlier, but. Yeah, this is something I added. So it didn't quite show that I realized at the last minute that this wasn't a view that was in there. And so I printed it out to bring in, but I didn't have something to send around. Where am I? There we are. It's not the best view because of the light pull, but you've got some varied brick here. And with that little bit of the, I don't remember what you call that word. Oh, hold on. It's not sharing screen, huh? That would help, wouldn't it? I'm looking at it, not showing anybody, right there. So this is the door that it's going for. And so there's just some, you know, how the lighting gets wired in is a question. Right. And embedded in that question, this piece of paper is really pointing out the fact that we're interested in not having your bracket obscure the kind of soldier bricks over the over the doorway, right? Well, at the bottom, at the bottom of the sign has to be eight feet above, right? And this is probably, then it's, it probably can't go there. We probably have to go around where the brick changes or where it looks like the mortar changes. Yeah. So it's like a six, eight door to what's the step up. Yeah. There's a little bit of a step. And then it's probably close to eight feet where those you think so top of those bricks is. Okay. It's good for her to have it in mind anyway. Yeah. Probably nobody smashed it with the any mounting screws should go in the mortar. Yep. Steve mentioned. Okay. And I assume this is being centered over the door or is it justified inside? Nope, centered over the door. So are there any other recommendations? Again, we indicated a small black can light can be installed. Take to the building pointed back at the sign for illumination. Close to the building as possible to avoid falling ice or snow. Applicants option, if she chooses to use a darker color and the same color family for more contrast with the white lettering. And then again, mounting hardware to be attached in the mortar joints on the brick face. Were there any other comments, suggestions or recommendations? Hint straight. Hint straight. Oh, that's right. Option to add perimeter. Hint straight. Yes, bring it back up. I don't think the ice and snow issue on that side of the building. I know it is closer to the bakery, but looking at this, this roof is either flat or pitched the other way. That roof pitches down towards the sidewalk. It kind of doesn't both, but it doesn't have the ice and snow issue. It has the ice bars up top, but this, no, but they're back here over there in the flat part. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I'm aware that the other roof can come off, but it's not the pitch of the, if it's over the doorway. Yeah, it's here. It's not the pitch. Yeah. So, I mean, they could maybe do a gooseneck there more. You could. There's still stuff that comes off of there. I mean, if you get a, you know, you get a heavy snow. Like we did not that long ago. You get, and it starts to melt. It does come over the edge. I mean, you could use a gooseneck, but be prepared to replace it. Right over. You noted also that the bracket would be above the soldier course. Right work, right above the door. The vertical bricks. Yeah. Yeah. Did you want to put that in as a recommendation that the bracket for the sign needs to be above the soldier course, above the door? We could, although at eight feet it will be anyway, but I can. Okay. Just to be sure. I can just reinforce that. Thank you, Liz. Okay. That's added as well. So we, again, we added the, there's an option to add a perimeter pinstripe around the sign in the same color as the lettering. And then again, the mounting bracket should be installed above the brick soldier course. And I can go through, there's a set of criteria that applies to the signed. And I can go through that criteria size, location, design, color, texture, lighting and material of all exterior signs within the design review over Lake District shall be compatible with the building and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and signed bands on historic structures. This location is acceptable. If a building has multiple tenants, there shall be consistency and placement and size among all signs acceptable. It is recommended the sign placement be centered over building entries acceptable. Sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining materials on the building. The attachment and location of the sign is acceptable. In masonry buildings, fasteners shall be in mortar joints acceptable. Sign design color and topography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable. Sign support structure shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves acceptable. Lighting fixtures for signs on facades of historic buildings shall not conflict with or damage the building's architectural integrity or cover or impact character defining architectural features acceptable. Lighting fixtures for signs mounted on all building facade shall be designed with appropriate housing shielding and photometrics to ensure that there is appropriate lighting levels and illumination that focuses on the sign panels exclusively acceptable. All in favor of the application with the recommendations and options speak your names. Ben. Martha. I'm a yes. Steven says yes. Liz, yes. So the application is accepted unanimously. So, Elisa, I will scan this recommendation from and email it to you because they did make some recommendations that would be like permit conditions. As long as you're okay with those, I'm going to have you sign it and then send that signature page back to us and then we'll be able to issue the permit for the sign. When you're ready to do the light, get back in touch with Adra and me because we'll have to do an administrative site plan report. And then depending on how the wiring's run and everything, you may have to come back to design review for that, but we'll see what ends up happening with the electrician. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Awesome. Thank you, Elisa. Thank you and good luck with your new business. Thank you so much. We can move on to the next application for 89 Main Street. Owner Doug Netty, applicant. Is it Jaeger or Jaeger? Netty. It's pronounced Jagger, like Mick Jagger's easiest way to remember. Sorry. Tricky spelling. No, it's not you. It's my entire life spelling that. Well, thank you for your flexibility and describe your application for us. Sure. So we have a new tenant looking to occupy part of the first floor of 89 Main Street. Part of our fit up is going to include a new exterior entrance to help people go in and out of the building. We're looking to, we're planning for the future. We're having this entrance have two doors. One, if you go up one on the left, one on the right. So it can access multiple spaces. So in five, 10 years should this tenant leave and we want to subdivide it again. That space can be broken into smaller sections and we can bring even more retail life to East Day Street. The space itself is a couple steps up and then inside the building. So we'll be building a insulated cube essentially inside the building. We'll be pouring new footings, cutting concrete and pouring some new stairs and then adding one recessed light for safety and visibility at the top of the inlet. So this has an alcove sort of like the tattoo parlor does? Yep. That's exactly what we're trying to copy essentially. Same idea to just allow another way into the building. For retail especially, it's challenging for some people to go into the main entrance, the down hallway and find where you want to go. And we think just long term for the building it'd be great to have a new exterior entrance, which just gives even more life to that street and then just draws more people into the building. You anticipate any signage at this point? I do anticipate new horizons. I believe they have applied for a permit to do interior construction, putting a sign above the entryway. So that's for one door then the other door. Actually a mirror gold is looking to expand a bit. So we see them taking the other portion of the inside to where that door leads. So if you go up and then take the door to the right, that leads to mirror gold. I don't know if they would add another sign or just keep their primary entrance and use that as a secondary entrance. But that hasn't been signed yet. So we're still not sure who's taking the other space. Yeah, we haven't heard from... I don't think we've gotten a sign permit from New Horizons yet. That's I think pending. Yeah, they're still... That's exactly how they want to do it. And they're still in the early new business early stage of you know, work inside. I know that. So I know they're... I think they're permits pending from what I've talked with Gavin about. Everybody's looking at the plan so... Yep, I see that. And if you have questions, feel free to... I can't pull things up on the screen if somebody needs to look at something closer. In general, I think it's good to break up the side of that building and provide more track since down East State Street. A couple of questions. Could you explain exactly where the wood siding is going? Yep. So as you look into the building, you're going to have a brick directly in front of you. And then next to the aluminum storefront doors, so where the wood siding is going to be, it's just going to add a nice little accent there. And just kind of break up all the brick and add a nice refined feel was our kind of goal. Well, the other question I have is about matching the existing brick. Have you tried to find brick to match yet? We haven't gone that far into matching it, but getting as close as possible is definitely a goal of ours and matching the mortar also is a goal of ours. Well, I haven't done, but what I plan on doing is going, the entrance to Marigold was an add-on later. And I was looking at that, and they did a pretty good job of matching the brick and then also matching the mortar. We're going to try to save as much brick as possible from the exterior and try to reuse that. But there may be a need to use more, to make more and buy more brick. We're just not entirely sure if we're yet. Because the existing brick has been down there for about 40 years. Yep. And I can't believe that building's that old, because that's all right. See, if you can't match the brick, and they have been in a bunch with the old brick, if you're going to be able to see that very easily. And I suggest putting some kind of a divider in the two different kinds of brick are not woven together. Yep. That's a great thought. Or just whatever. Have a course of bricks and divide the two. I think you're going to really have a hard time matching that using the old bricks would be great. Yep. I think we're going to try to save as much as possible. And if it's not possible, so if you have a straight on view there, we might have the, you know, we might have that back wall as you walk up the stairs, continue that wood accent. If we run out of brick, it could be a potential solution for us. Let me try and go to where that view was. Of what the new. How long do you anticipate that the construction will take? We're still in the early stages of just getting some quotes for the concrete cutting, but once we move, I don't expect taking longer than a month. You can open, you know, cut the concrete in a day or two and just start working on pouring the new footings, foundation, concrete, and then framing it and doing the enclosure itself won't take that long. We've reached out to some companies to get beds on the storefront aluminum doors. With, you know, our thoughts is, you know, it could take a little while, some plastics longer than others. So that's, that could contribute to when we start the project and when that's completed. So I'm actually looking at the front here. It does look like they're using the exterior wood at the back as well. So that wraps them. So I think we should have plenty of old brick to use to finish off the edges, do the top part, and then infill the other door there and replace that with a window. Yeah. So do you see this, Eric? They've just pulled up. Sorry, I was wrong. Where they'll need to refill with the old brick, they're going to here and appear where they've filled in what's currently a door with a window, but they'll need to fill the top. And then it looks like the back, you just confirmed, is the plan actually is wood on the back wall as well as on the sides. Plenty of brick. I think it's a good idea to save the old. Yeah, reuse it as much as possible. It might be a little hard to clean with that hard mortar on it, but by the way, to get enough to do this. Not as trying to replicate the brick as much as possible. And I'm not trying to be an ad for anybody, but travel trades between Winozki and Essex Junction was able to match some 100 year old bricks that we needed. And they matched it exactly. Wow. They're probably as good as you're going to find to match what you have. If you take a couple of samples, they must have a hundred different brick styles in their yard. Yeah, the bricks are easy to match. It's a big brick yard over there. Writing that down. Does anyone have any comments, questions or suggestions so far? Okay. And the describe the lighting that's going inside. Is that overhead above? Yep, it's overhead. One recessed, I believe. I have a material sheet here that specs it out. The recessed can light with a flood in it? Yeah, that's, let's see here. Should be on that. It's small. It's on here. There's a little, I zoomed in on it, but yeah, it's yeah, I had to pull it up from the original, but I don't have that on my. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, it's just a surface mount, down light, just around circle light. It has super low profile. I don't think you're going to see it other than the lights on the street. That's fine. Okay, we can go ahead and read through the criteria for the project. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Additions and alterations to non-historic non-contributing structures shall respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings. New additions on non-historic and non-contributing structures that overshadow or diminish the historic character of the adjacent contributing structures prohibited. That's acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place, and use acceptable. Alterations to buildings call for by public safety accessibility and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible, acceptable. Proportion, compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable. Rhythm, visual patterns established by the alteration of solid walls and openings, windows and doors, and the facade of a building shall create a rhythm acceptable. Architectural features including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tablature, trim, and other forms of molding or character defining, detailing, prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures, structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building incompatible with the neighborhood acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. Eric, Ben. Martha, Emma, yes. Liz, yes. And Steve says yes. So unanimous five to nothing in favor. Thank you all. Thank you because there weren't any tweaks to the plan at all. We will get this, we have this, so I just need the lumen output on those two lights, those recess lights, the one that's there already and the new one. And then we'll be able to wrap up that administrative site plan report and get this out the door to you. Great, I'll work on that. Thank you. Awesome, thank you. Does everybody have a chance to take a look at the minutes? Yep. Any comments, questions, suggestions, changes? Yeah, on the February 21st minutes, if you take a look on the bad sides, it looks like there's a sentence missing. It goes right from Michael Mulcahy was present to 32 inches high, 32 inches wide. Looks like we have a sentence or something missing. Yeah, or the part of the sign. Yeah, I don't know what happened there. I think it's just supposed to be that sign will be. Well, but I will double check on that. Yeah, I think we need to see what exactly it says. Yeah, no, well, because usually, I mean, this is, there's usually a brief description of the proposal. And so I will fix that. Yeah, they're back to you. On the March 6th minutes, I make a motion to accept them the way they are. Do I hear a second? I'm going to abstain because I wasn't there. You've been all second. All in favor of the March, the six minutes, speak your name. Martha, Eric, Eric, it says you were here. Steve. You were there on the March 6th one. On the March 6th, yeah, I was there, but not for the February. Right. So we're voting on the March 6th. Well, I just, well, I vote yes. Okay. Then that, that makes. We're on February. We jumped ahead. That makes four of us in. So that's approved. Anyone have any other business or anything else to add? If not, do I hear a motion to adjourn? So moved. Second. All in favor of adjournment, speak your names. Eric. Ben. Steve. Martha. Liz. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you all for coming. See you in April.