 Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with Clyde Zimmerman, we're in Altoona, Pennsylvania. You're involved in a whole lot of different things, organizations working overseas, etc. But one of the things I know as a focus for you is community development. What is that? Can you define what community development is? Why does it matter and how can it help those in need? Community development is an area I've spent a good bit of my life at in the last seven, eight years, but in terms of, if I was trying to define community development, according to the CEEP network today, there are over 15 million people within savings groups in over 73 countries, and that is in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. And in short, the principles behind community development are what sometimes are called asset-based development. And what that means is what assets and resources exist within your community. Sometimes when you get it off an airplane, you say, wow, they don't have this, they don't have that. What if you flip that on its head and say, really, they have water, they have good fertile land, they have even a young people, one of the things that's really interesting seeing gifted, strong-muscled young men idle, that's a resource. So the whole idea behind community development is really around what resources exist within the community that can be used to develop the environment. So that's a high-level overview, asset-based development, utilizing resources that exist versus aid or relief or bringing something from outside the community. So that's a pretty important distinction then. So it's not like we're talking about bringing something in to fix it necessarily, correct? That's true. But it's a very subtle thing because what is my mind when I get off the airplane? Do I have the worldview that I'm from the West, I'm from a developed country, we got it figured out, and I'm the resource? Because that's a very slippery slope. Once you start down that path, in fact, you'll probably be there unless you're really intentional to not be there. I want to speak just a little bit more about aid versus development, and when you think about aid, sometimes it's called chronic and critical. And both are very necessary ingredients. It's just that the SALT program is not a relief organization, it's a development organization. So we have to be real with who we are, what we do, and where we fit. If there's an earthquake and a person loses his shelter, his water, his food, needs medical care, for me to walk up to that person, hey, you need a savings group, a teaching program for the next year to help you. I mean, this is silly, right? But neither is giving aid or relief when folks have been in chronic poverty for generations the right solution. Because all that does is give me a wrong view of myself in delivering that aid. Number one, and number two, it really is about soon they think, well, all good things come from outside my community, and they're made in God's own image. Places I've gone all over the world, and I just am astounded at the brilliance, and this thing of making God's own image is absolutely true. And I've not been in a place in the world that gifts, skills, sharp minds, strong muscles are there, and they have resources. And if we deliver relief or aid, even in miserable poverty, we're telling them something. We're telling them that their minds aren't sharp enough, they don't have the resources needed. If we just unload our dump truck on them, then all is well. And it's simply not true. Those 15 million members in savings groups in 73 countries, there's a vast, vast quantity of organizations that are doing that. And many of them are NGOs, non-government organizations, governments. There could be banks. There could be Islamic foundations. There could be Catholic charities, mainstream Christianity. In the focus of the majority of savings groups in the world today are really around two major areas. One is financial literacy. In other words, getting access to banks. We use banks in the West as a tool to get something done. And then the worldview in the Eastern Hemisphere and the developing world, banks are this high and mighty thing that the vast majority of the population simply doesn't have access to the traditional financial system. So they're focused on financial literacy. And another major aspect is women empowerment. A lot of societies are matriarchal. And what ends up happening is these women are responsible for the home. They're responsible for the economics of the family. A lot of times the men, they're busy, they're employed, or they may be, but really it falls on the women. So those are two areas that the vast majority of those 15 members, 15 million savings group members in the world today, really that's what they focus on, financial literacy and women empowerment. Meanwhile, from Christian Aid Ministry's SALT program, that's not our focus. We get some of that by default, but that's not our focus. Wow, so it sounds like there's a wide spectrum of diversity here, different groups doing this type of thing. And there's a lot of good being done. Sometimes I tend to have this view that if it's not the way I think it should be done or maybe the ideal that God can't use that, that's not true. God works in ways that are just mind-boggling. Just in my small experiences is just unbelievable what ends up happening. Okay, so you mentioned the Christian Aid SALT program. I think you're also involved somewhat with All Nations Bible Translation projects. So describe those projects first off. And then what are they doing, practically speaking, to help with poverty, and so forth? Yeah, so I've worked in the SALT program for about five years, and before that I had some experience in Southeast Asia before I was working for SALT. But today my role is assistant director. I work for Gary Miller, and I focus on vision and goals. So in addition to that, I am what we call, within the SALT world, we have something we call a country supervisor, a program supervisor. So I get to work with Anabaptist missions in different countries, and my focus is in Southeast Asia. Then with All Nations, I'm nude All Nations. I've been intrigued by their work for quite a while. But as of January of this year, I am serving as a member of their advisory council. So we have a once a year meeting and then some other interaction on various things that is a fit. And also from the SALT side of things, I am the assigned liaison between, from SALT to All Nations Bible Translation. So any of their members or countries that wish to use community development, use the SALT program, I end up working with them. So really, you're just kind of a resource to people who are doing these things and they can come to you for advice and assistance. Is that maybe a way? Actually, it ends up being the other way. I learned from them. But there is the practical aspects. We got this quandary. What's your experience in that in other countries or what have other people learned from that? So maybe it's more of sharing of information. I've recognized we're all with some of our experiences and as we ponder the countries or the developing environments that we work in, you soon realize that if they would just change your worldview, things would be better. But flip that on its head. What does it take for me to change my worldview? You tell me, maybe my whole growing up experience is Islamic worldview. And you tell me Jesus' fact and truth. You tell me the Bible is true. Why believe you? With one interaction? With five? With ten? How many does it take for me to change my worldview? We know it's not simple. And why do we think when we are working in other contexts that things will change quickly? Another major aspect of community development, we take the long view. If you're not investing for five years, ideally ten, probably community development is not the right tool for your tool bag because we are interested in people wrestling with teaching with the Word of God, if you will, and slowly, slowly people's worldview starts to change. Okay, so that transitions well into the next question about Matthew 28 where Jesus talks about teaching. What does that look like? I know you've done, well, you had sent me some messages on this, actually, you know, kind of like outline. What does this look like? And can you talk into that some more? You know, I remember when we, as a family, lived in Dhaka. Dhaka is in the country of Bangladesh, has twenty million people, the most densely populated city on the globe, and on an evening after dark, the sidewalks are maybe eight or ten feet wide. You can't walk. There's just too many people. In the middle of all of that, it hits you right between the eyes and you say, Lord, how will they ever know about you? Yeah. How? There's so many people. How will they know? Asia specifically has 4.6 billion people. It has 60% of the world's population. If you chart out population in the last couple hundred years, just look at the hockey stick and the proverbial graph, if you graph out population. God is doing something. What is it? Is it? And at the same time, he's blessing us in the West with resources that are mind-boggling. Is God getting a good return on his investment? Oh, wow. Wow. That's a, I've never thought of it quite like that, though. Yeah. But the thing is, say you go to a culture, you become fluent in the language, and you're there for 10, 15 years. In every culture, there's a whole host of things that is just understood. It goes without being said. And when we are new in a culture, it takes a long time to learn those things. How can we, I'm not saying we can't play a role, but in my own personal experience, I have seen people come to the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, in their culture, in their context, and they have such a burden for the lost around them. And you just watch what God is doing, and you realize that Matthew 28, 19 is way beyond our abilities. But yet, God chooses to work through men and women. He still wants us to be faithful. So there's a role to play, but talk about, am I going to share it with one person then one more? Is it all about me? Or if people come to the faith, and then that person shares with 10, and that person shares with 10. So that's why the salt program and community development is really focused on indigenous staff development, working with the natives, and the Americans, the missionaries, the foreigners are really behind the scenes. And what the salt program today operates in in 16 countries has more than 50,000 members, and there's about four or five countries that are in start-up phase, including, yeah, there's a number of countries that are in start-up phase, and it takes time. But in all of those areas, one thing that blesses me dramatically is just seeing the anti-baptists from our communities just walking with those indigenous staff and just going back to the Bible again, and again, and again. And you know, the gospel is simple. It can be lived out in every culture, but sometimes we make it complicated. That's the last question I had written up, but is there anything else you would like to share? Yeah, you think about ways that, you know, what can I do? How can I be faithful? Where's the Lord calling me? You think about that question, and sometimes, you know, it's this interesting quandary. What do we, you know, the small staff is very small. There's only a handful of us here stateside, but, you know, we wrestle with where should we focus our energies? And my role in goals and vision is looking forward, and I walk into my little home office every day, and I say, am I working on something that we want to use a year from now? Two years from now. And so we're really focusing on the future. That's our goal. That's what I work on. And one of those initiatives is really just in salt teaching materials. Salt at its very core is a teaching entity. And we have numerous salt teaching manuals that are used in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern Hemisphere, and over the last six months I've had the opportunity to interview most of the programs around the world. And what do you need? What's working? What are the gaps? And two areas came out. One was in the oral cultures, there's a lot of oral cultures. We need more material in orality teaching. So maybe the salt facilitator would be able to have sketches or pictures or images that connect in their context that share a powerful Bible story, those kinds of things. So that's one area. And then on complete the other end of the spectrum is a lot of our examples in the past in our teaching content is the typical call it the lemonade stand. And you see that in developing countries everywhere. Somebody sets up a little shop and away they go, they're in business. But as people become more developed and more skilled, more experienced, and we are in a global economy, we need more teaching and more content that goes deeper, that maybe the scenario is two business partners with ten employees in a welding shop, something like that versus the one person with selling shoes in the marketplace or vegetables, etc. So we're working on that. And in the teaching content, we have a number of writers and the good news is writers, indigenous writers in Asia and Africa are writing stories today. And so it's a long work. It's a long project and in some ways it's so big, you never get done. So it's just you look up at six months later or a year later and you say, hey, we got some things done. But every month you just try again. And so that's a real enjoyable experience. But just again, back to seeing the Anabaptist recognize that our own worldview has areas it doesn't line up with God's word. It just doesn't. But we can't see them. It's hard for us to see where our worldviews don't line up with God's word. But yet when we get off of an airplane in a developing country, well, if they would just do X or just do Y, it seems so obvious to us. But when I think about born again, baptized believers from Islamic background environments, and I think, would I be comfortable bringing them to my home in America? And it actually gives me pause because I'm like, wait a minute. How does it line up with this book? How close am I living my life to this book? And that's really a sobering thought at times. So knowing that we don't have all the answers, we have the answers to the extent that they come from God's word. I don't want to minimize that for one minute. There's areas of our lives that just don't line up with God's word. But it's hard for us to see them and the reverse is also true. So it's like staying humble and understanding that we miss a lot of things as human beings, as small human beings. Wow, well, thank you so much for sharing. You're very welcome. It's easy to talk about something that's near and dear to your heart. That's fantastic. Thank you so much.