 Hi, welcome to this new series that we are starting from today, and this is a series on MPD 2041, as it is called. It's Master Plan of Delhi 2041. And 20 years down the line, how Delhi is to be shaped, what kind of land use change patterns, what kind of mobility, what kind of typologies we are going to do. And this is probably we are talking about the NCR. So this journey actually that we have seen in the process of planning right from 1961, when the first plan was in vision, to 2041. So this is actually we are going to explore today, and then we'll run various of the episodes, where we'll talk about sectoral issues of mobility, housing, how 2041 Master Plan is with that. And because this is all about our Delhi, and all the questions. So today, what could be better than this, that Professor Dhanuroy, who is in Delhi, means, not just to make a plan with people, but with their idols, and what they call an alternative. What could be the path on the path of the heart, the vision of the city. And how this vision, the process and the work of making this vision, a lot of people are saying that it is very exclusive, because no one has participated in it. So Professor Dhanuroy, you are very welcome. You are free to speak English or Hindi, whichever you want to. That is why I started with both the languages. And what do you think about this Master Plan? It is a plan, because a lot of your planners and architects should not have a plan. There are a lot of people like that. But if you want to become a Yojna, then why is it necessary? And in 1991, when we see that there are a lot of social housing in the Yojna, but today we are talking about TOD, transitory integral. So if you explain the whole name of this journey, it will be much better. Then we will talk about other things. Thank you very much for inviting me to this interview. There are a lot of misunderstandings about the Master Plan and about its roots. It has been so many years, it has been six years. No. In the mind of the Yajnakars, it was made for 1,000,000 people, 1,000,000 people. But gradually, gradually, gradually, there are about 10,000 people living here today. That is, 10 people. And still, they are living in the city. So this means that the Yajnakars are still going on. And it is going very well. Whenever we think about where to go in the rest of Delhi, we say, let's go to the old Delhi. We will eat there, we will see birds over there. If we want to buy something in the market, we will go to the market. That is why the history of making Yajna in the city is quite old. It is not that we have to make Yajna today. But this idea of making Yajna in the city was also in a disaster. And it is very important to understand this. If you are aware, in 1947, there was this partition of the country. And in 1948, i.e. as Pakistan and India were divided, there were about 5 lakh refugees in Delhi, night after night. At that time, the population of Delhi was 11 lakhs. You can understand that the population of 11 lakhs is suddenly 16 lakhs. So what can happen to the city? But despite that, a Ministry of Rehabilitation and Ministry of Rehabilitation invited all the 5 lakhs in 5 years. Some were empty houses in the old Delhi. Refugees were put in them. But no one really got the property rights. They are still there. Their families are still there and they have been sold. But biologically, the second thing they did was what we call the Ring Road today. The Inner Ring. There is medical, university. What year is this? This is between 1948 and 1955. So this is the basic formal planning that we talked about before? Before the master plan. That's why I told you about it. Because when they invited, and if you look at Ring Road, all the cities are named. Nauruji Nagar, Lajpat Nagar, Kanjit Nagar, Mukherjee Nagar. All these cities are 27 cities. Rajendra Nagar is one of them. Yes, Rajendra Nagar is one of them. All the cities that you can see in Ring Road, all those cities are made up of refugee colonies. In which the refugees who came from Pakistan were saved. They were given a plot card. There was a flood of electricity in the plot. There was a shortage of electricity. And every family was given a loan to their homes. So it was done very well. But why do I call it a disaster? It is because of the 27 colonies. There are only 5-6 colonies that we call Kohi. This is the mountainous area of Delhi. It is the southern ridge that you know very well. There is Kudubh Meenar. And then there is the central ridge, which is behind Rashtrapati Bhavan. And then there is the northern ridge, which is on the way to university. So this Kohi mountain, this mountain is made up of Katora. So there are 6-7 colonies in this Katora. And this means that the soil that used to come out of it, the soil that used to come out of it, it used to come out of the river of Barapula Nale. It used to come out of the river of Yamuna. It was near Okhla. But the remaining 22 colonies, they used to come out of the entire ridge, i.e. outside of this Katora. And their drainage used to come out of the Najabgarh Nale. And because of the Najabgarh Nale, they used to come out of Yamuna to visit Vazirabad. Now why do we call it a disaster? Because all this soil, when Vazirabad went to Yamuna river, near Uttar Yamuna, then right next to it, there was Delhi's water supply. And that's why it went to Ganglapani. It went to Yamuna. And it came back as a water supply in Delhi in the form of a pump. And in 1985, there was Mahamariya in Delhi. And it was very bad. And the only reason for that was that this water came to Ganglapani. This water came to Ganglapani. Now it was worrying from that time that the city should be made up in a bad way. Because if they could understand this earlier and they should have understood that this water will go to Yamuna and if it goes to Yamuna, it will come back to water. So they understood the engineer very well. What did they do? From where the water comes out, from the Najabgarh Nale, and from where the water comes out, from Yamuna. So for the water supply, they made a bond between them. So that they could meet each other. And this is the bridge of the Prime Minister. This is the first bridge on Yamuna. A sure bond. And the water collected behind it, that water is now supplied to Delhi. But it will not be far from it. The water will flow in the Yamuna river. And now you have stopped Yamuna. This means that there is no water for the sister. So the entire canal, from 1958 to today, is now in the Yamuna river. Today too. We always want to learn from disasters. So this is the way of thinking. If there is a disaster, then you should plan for it. You should find a solution for it. And from that solution, there will be a second disaster. Then you should plan again for that disaster. Then you should find a solution for it. And from that solution, there will be a third disaster. So this is the history of the master plan. Now I am going to the master plan of 1962. The work of which was to think about all these things. And to make a plan of 20 years based on that. The most important thing in the master plan, and that is behind every plan, is the reality of that time. The reality of that time. You should know everything about the situation. And the master plan in 1962, because the birth of a tree, the census, it was before that. So you got to know from the census, that there are so many people in Delhi, that's why you can plan. Because you know, that in 1962, it is so common. You can say, how many in the census, how many in the census, how many in the census. And with that, you can say, that if there was so much in the census, then how much in the census, in the census. And based on that, you can plan. That there will be so much in the census. Now you should know in the census, that how much water people use. That's why so much money is available. You should know that how many people live in big houses. So how much land is needed. So how much land will be needed in the census. You should know that how many people go by cycle. How many go by bus. How many go by rail. How many go by car. So, what are the factors that you are trying to justify in terms of water pit initiative. So how far have we go in the census? How far have we gone? So niemand been86, So why are you trying to justify示ase us. Soena, So go ahead. Whats your take in Then he came to us to tell us about 10 Ustads from the US. He came to us to tell us about 10 Ustads from the US. He made a bridge with a golden gate on the back of his head. He came to us to tell us about 10 Ustads from the US. And this Ford Foundation had made the whole arrangement. He came to us and told us that we should study the bridge. Secondly, he told us that you have to set your mind based on that bridge. Your mind means how many places should be for cyclists on the road? How many places should be for cars? How many places should be for buses? Because all this is based on numbers. And you project those numbers to see how many places should be for cyclists on the road. You can even think that there are so many people on the bus today. We want more people on the bus. So then you can plan accordingly. And you can make any plan without these primary studies. So first you have to do primary studies. And then you have to make a plan based on that. A plan, meaning no. You have to make a standard of how many places should be for one person. And based on those norms, then you have to make a plan for 20 years. It is very simple. It is not difficult. There is no need for Ustads from the US. But still, this can come to your mind. But at that time, we had to make a master plan. And I think the good thing is that that kind of master plan is an example of how you can make a standard of how many places should be for studies. In Nehru, there is a chart of Nehru as well. For example, when they made Chandigarh, they said to the minister, look, these poor people will come. Don't let them become a ghost city. So in planning, you have to make sure that there is very little expense for people to live here. That is why Ustads came here. We got to see something like that. There is a chart of Adhooni. Meaning, who do you consider to be Adhooni? Someone must have made Shah Jahanabad. They must have understood that what will happen to Shah Jahanabad after 100 years. So this means that there was some information. Our people had made Banaras. If you look at the old cities like Indore, Ujjain, Vizhaka Patnam. The name of Vizhaka Patnam was not there at that time. But it was called Banzargah. It is mentioned in the history of Al Baruni. It is mentioned. So at that time we knew how to make cities. It is not like we don't know how to make cities. But we don't know how to make Adhoonikh cities. So this is why Adhooniktha's plan is in these cities. And if I give you an example. In the old cities, there is only one straight road. And that is Chandni Chowk. From Lal Kile to Pratapuri Mosque. And there is no straight road. All the roads are turned around. But when the old Delhi was formed, a long road was formed from the same pattern in the old Delhi. That is, from the time when Raj Bhavan was there to India Gate. And all the other roads were straight. Or Golakar. And Golakar was made for that. Because after the understanding of a word, where will be the class 4 officer? Where will be the class 3? Where will be the class 2? Where will be the class 1? And according to that, it doesn't go fast. Like the old city didn't go that way. If you see, as soon as the road goes inside, like Chandni Chowk or any other road, there are alleys. There will be alleys in every alley. And there will be a house of Nawab in every alley. So all the Nawabs were sold. It wasn't like the class 5 was in just one place. So the mix queues that we call these days, you can see them in Shah Jahanabad. You won't see them in New Delhi. Anyway, in 1962, for 21 years, they made some targets for 21 years. What do we have to do for 21 years? For example, in 1962, they said that they wanted to make 6 lakh more houses for the next 10 years. For the next 20 years. Now they couldn't make 6 lakhs. They made 5 lakhs. But at least if they made it, they saved 1 lakh. They couldn't make it. And because of that, they said that they missed a little from the target when there was a review in 1981 that they missed a little. But that's why they missed it because they changed the public and the public. For example, this is not true. The public was only 8% bigger than the target. So that's why they said that this is public and that's why the city has been destroyed. This is not right. But this is a thought. This is a mental disorder. So in this way, these kinds of minds are responsible for creating further disasters. So in 1981, when they sat down to review the 1962 plan, they found that there were a lot of targets which had not been achieved. Let me tell you one target. Like in the Basat case, they talked about the industry. Housing was one. We can focus on housing. Please focus on all. My point is the first one was housing that you said. I told you about housing. They made 5 lakhs. So 1 lakh has been reduced. In the same way, they said that for the industry, 11 work centres and 16 industrial areas were to be built. At that time, there were only 2. One was in Oklah and one was in Shahzada. There was no other industrial area in Delhi. So they said that 11 more were to be built. So this means that it is a dream to see Delhi as an industrial centre. So there are only 2. We have to build 16 industrial areas. 16 were never to be built. They made 5. So this means that 11 were to be left. So in this way, if you look at the targets, they said that there is only one central business district. Canot please. Canot at that time. So they said that 2 more should be built. Not 2 more. But they said that all central business districts should be built. Even though a central business should not be built like Canot Place, but smaller than that. 5 more should be built in Delhi. In different places. They also could not build 5 more. So in one way, when they gave targets in Basat, you can review it in 81. How many were built? Why many were not built? What was the reason for not being built? And according to that reason, then you redevelop your plan. And you say... Because you said something very interesting. It just came out of all of a sudden. When you said that they had said it, then they had said it. So they were also teachers. Did you have any idea of taking advice from common people? Did you have any process of taking advice from common people? That if you want a 17, then why not a 17? If you want mobility, then what is the problem? Or was it just on teachers? Good boy. In the end, what was written in the act? That there should be public hearing. You should take suggestions from the public. Before notifying the plan, the draft plan should be in front of the public. Take suggestions in front of the public. And then you should give your public hearing on every suggestion. After listening to it, you have to answer it. Reason judgment and reason order has to be given. So at that time in Basat, what you said was very good. That he published the plan in three languages. He published it in English, in Hindi and Urdu. And he published it in the whole city. That means of Dhandora Peeth. And he announced on the streets that this is the plan which needs to be seen. It should be in the MCD's office. You should take suggestions, check the plan and it should be given. And at that time there were about 600 letters in the whole city. You can understand how big the city was. According to me there was a very big number. Yes, there was a very big number. 600 people You see the problem here is that people were not involved in making the play. People were only involved in commenting on the play. The educated people can comment on the play. The educated people have gone out of their way. The second thing is that there are some technical aspects, which people do not understand. Now, who do you call ROW? Who do you call FR? Who do you call FSI? People do not understand the play. So, there was no one to explain the play. So, if you are talking about democracy, you need to challenge the expert. You need what is called informed participation. Not just participation. We will have to be informed. This has never taken place. So, then in 1981, when they sat down to review the play, this was called MPD 2001. Because they are making the plan for 2001. They reviewed the 82 play. And they said, these are the targets that were set. How much have we achieved? And they found that except for housing, where 1 lakh shortage was there, for all the others, industrial, transportation, commercial, not more than 50% had finished. By enlarge less than 50%. So, that was the time for DDR to reach. We made a mistake in making the plan. This is in 1982 you are talking about. 1981. When the plan came up for review. Because I remember the first urban commission came in the same decade, 86, 87, which also laid emphasis on manufacturing and all. Please go ahead. We will just bring that also. And then there was this emphasis on manufacturing. But if you say you are going to build 16 industrial areas and you build only 5, then you have to think. Why couldn't you build the other 11? They didn't think. But, you see, there is the organic dynamic of the city. Where does the master come from? If you said that you are going to build 6 lakh houses, you have to build only 5, then 1 lakh families will not disappear. There are still 1 lakh families. Maybe more than 1 lakh. Because you didn't give that much weight to the migration. So this means that there will be more families who don't have a house. So if they don't have a house, then people will not be sitting like this. They will build their own house. And this is where the slums and the unauthorized colonies start. So this is what I call the organic spirit of democracy. That's where the state fails. People fail. I think that's very interesting. Organic spirit of democracy. If you go to India, it will be amazing. People's destiny. With your own will. This is so creative. We can do this. We need the government. We will build our own house. We will open our own industry. We will open our own business. And people did that. 50% to 60% shortfalls. In commercial areas. In industrial areas. People did it wherever they found space. And this entrepreneurial spirit. People's creativity. This was termed in 82. In the 2001 master plan. As being non-conforming. That means it doesn't conform with our idea. That means the planner's idea is right. People's idea is wrong. That is non-conforming. And it goes back to the 62 plan. Because in the 62 plan also. When the plan was made. The whole of Shah Janaabad was coloured grey. And coloured grey means this is a special area. It doesn't work with our planning. So they declared it as a special. That's quite interesting. But they also called it a special slum area. The whole of Delhi. It was written in the 17th century. They told everyone that this is a special area. So in the same way. People made it themselves. They either made it non-conforming. Or unauthorized. They declared it. And that is why you find for the first time. In the 1982-2001 plan. These two words emerge. That this is a non-conforming area. This is unauthorized construction. What should be done about it? Thank you so much. To explain it so easily. Because it's not easy. You don't even want to make it simple. You don't want to be so simple. That's why you don't want to. Thank you so much for your time. We'll continue with this series.