 Okay, I guess there's no public comment, so looking for approval of minutes from our last meeting. We've only got them today, if you want to review them. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes. Second. Okay, any discussion on any minutes? Do we know all those in favor? Please say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. City updates. Yes, so the primary thing I wanted to update you on was at our last meeting we had some discussion about housing and regulations and what the city council was talking about. So I wanted to just give you a brief update on the last council meeting from this past Monday and kind of where things are going and how the planning commission is going to get plugged in, or at least the direction that we feel that council has kind of given us, not a formal action, but what we discussed. So what we're going to be doing from a staff level anyway at this point is working with the housing commission to develop a kind of a replacement housing ordinance that has some inclusionary housing characteristics to it as well. So we'll be working with them over the next couple of meetings to develop that. So that will give the planning commission time to work through the rest of the draft plan so we can focus on that work that needs to be done here. And also we're going to be doing a series of basically a housing series in the fall so that we can get some experts in the room and bring planning commission if they want to, the housing commission, anybody in the community quite frankly can come together and hear about the different topics and we're going to be focusing it primarily on inclusionary zoning, replacement ordinances, housing trust funds, those types of things. So that we're not opening up the discussion of, hey, do we need an affordable housing regulations or anything to do with affordable housing? It's more of this is the direction we want to go with affordable housing and this is what it's going to mean to you as a community member, as a citizen, as a planning commission member, housing commission, however the case might be. So that'll be the opportunity for us to get some of that education and engagement with the other commissions and other entities through this process. And then I believe the schedule that we're looking at is having a draft of replacement ordinance, inclusionary zoning, however we craft that to the planning commission. I think October, November timeframe, after we get the draft of the master plan done so that we're not overlapping that work. So that's pretty much where we're going with the housing discussion moving forward. So that's where not disengaged as a planning commission, but not not fully thrown in. How does that affect in any way the housing chapter? I don't think it will because I think we're keeping the master plan at a higher level. We can just generally talk about the need for affordable housing without identifying specific programs or directions we need to go in. So that we should be covered in that regard. Great. Just so I get the notes right here. City staff is working with housing commission to develop replacement ordinance and inclusionary zoning. Yes? Yep. And there's a public. We're going to do a housing series this fall. A public housing series, okay. Thank you. Yeah, a housing series to talk about the specific regulatory components to housing that we're exploring directly. Not opening it up as just a general free for all discussion. Mr. Mayor, anything you wanted to add about that? Or does that sound like the direction you were called? Yes. And I think most beneficial at the next meeting, a formalized schedule is coming back. Yes. And with that, there will be something. I'm going to be really blunt if city council is not once voted on an issue around housing other than to form you. So we're going to come back and actually vote on that schedule so that there's a hard thing that we can all look at to say this is what we're all doing in organized fashion. And you don't feel a sea change from meeting the meeting in terms of direction. That's the goal for that. Are you going to let us have input into that before you vote on it so that we're not hit with, you know, all of a sudden someone decides, hey, we want to have a final housing report in September to the Planning Commission on topic in September. We're like, wait a minute. Jeremy? It's coming back for the next meeting. You know, I think at your discretion, Eric, I think it could be shared for comment or concern. Sure. But individually, but in terms of being able to bring it back for the full body, it probably will not be. And I can tell you that the schedule as presented, though, was supported. And everybody just said if this is brought back without some of the commentary that was included in it, that the schedule would be accepted. So it's something that could be shared pretty expeditiously. And my thought was not bringing it to this board to go around. It was just give us an email as we'd see it. So we had a concern. Fair. Yeah. So we are Monday night meeting with the Housing Commission and they will see since they're kind of the going to be the main driver right now so that they can review the schedule. And after Monday night, we can definitely share that. Yeah. Because that's what we'll go forward then to counsel for their recommendation of our schedule. Okay. And that's the only update I wanted to provide. Okay. Okay. All right. Continue discussion master plan update for safe, healthy connected people chapter. I'm actually just going to turn it over to Regina. I think this is a continuation. We dabbled in this at the last meeting. So, you know, we Regina's reorganized and added some language based on our discussion. So, Regina, take it away. So you'll see some changes in the draft language. One of the things that you'll see is there's some of the data is kind of filled in a little bit more. But I still haven't had a chance to think through this with Ray, who I think would be super helpful person to figure out what really is the right information to include in here. Some of the public health data, just so you know, it's really not accurate at a municipal level if it even exists at all. So the county level is like the best we can do. So we'll have to decide whether that's even useful or relevant to include in the plan. Sorry, just to know the reason why Ray hasn't weighed in on any of this yet is because he's been on vacation since this was drafted. So he's, I believe he's back next week. So we'll have, we will have his input before the draft is finished. So that's just one point I wanted to make. One thing that we also talked about at the last meeting was having a bit more information about the school because at that point we really just only had a like a random high level goal without much information about the schools in there at all. So your draft has a version of the school piece in it. And I got back from Sean McMahon, his revised version of the school section. So that's coming around to you. Sorry, that was not available earlier, but just got that back from him. And it, he did not track changes. So, yeah, eco staples. So there's not a real statement. Wow. Does it work? Thank you. Yeah, the eco staple works pretty well. So long as you have very few shaper, like at some point it really breaks down. So that information you've got as well, it is as far as the way that it's organized. This is, I kind of put this in there after the kind of key issues data points, but we can shift that around and decide what we want to ultimately do with it. And, you know, I kind of almost like the concept that it's a little bit almost owned by the schools too. So we could sort of like, you know, include it in kind of a different way to be clear that it's, it's not what we said about the schools. It's really what schools are saying. So the expectation would be this language from the school would replace what's in the draft. Yes. And you'll see at the end of his version, I talked with him about the concept of trying to highlight some of the schools alumni in the sense of sort of where they are today. And he suggests that I look at a number of the videos they have on their own website. And if there's anybody that's particularly interesting to get back to him and he'll let me know how to connect with them and so we can get an actual quote for the plan. So I have not had a chance to look at those videos yet, but I certainly will. And it sounds like that would be pretty, pretty cool. The other thing I talked to Sean about, which Sean McMahon about, which we talked about briefly at our last meeting was about the testing scores, essentially. And when you see when you look at them as a whole, they look pretty low in comparison to other schools. And if there was a way to sort of describe that any differently in terms of folks who are in the English learning side of things versus non English learners. And that's very hard from their perspective and it makes sense that it's difficult to describe things in that way. The point that he made, though, which I think might be helpful for us to include in the plan is that it's much more about if they can, the folks that actually stay in the school system, like for a number of years, because when you see he's also got lots of folks that are kind of coming in and out of the school system. For those that stay in the school system, their test results really are improving over time if they're staying in the system. When they're shifting out, they kind of lose part of the data, so it's hard to say. So that's something that he mentioned. I don't think it's reflected in this right now, but he just answered a question of mine in the email. So I'll incorporate that concept, I think, in the plan as well, if that makes sense to include that. I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but I know several years ago it was like 33% transient population. So start and don't finish the school year. Yeah. That's huge. Why is that? Whatever. People move back and forth from the University of Burlington or someplace else. It's a staggering one. It is a staggering one. But I can never figure out what the school is like. It seems like the number of high school students is much fewer or greater than elementary school and middle school by a dramatic number. And part of that is the school choice program in Burlington. But where is it dropout rate? What is that? I don't know for sure, but what I suspect is we've heard a lot of people move to the University of Burlington families and they leave before they hit high school. I think that's got a lot to do with it. I don't know what the graduating class was last year, but I don't know. When my daughter graduated in 2004, there were 33 or 39-year-old class. Wow. And that was, during that period, that was about the average side class, 30 or 40. Wow. Is that what it is still? It's very small. And what is the elementary class? It's much larger, right? Last I knew there was eight or nine hundred kids K through 12. So if you figure there's 120. But it's not even, though, right? Right, but if you figure there's 120 in the high school or 140 in the high school, that leaves you five, six hundred kids in K through 8. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, it's what seems relevant to us. I mean, the whole plan holistically is like, what is driving that decrease going into the high school level? If it's people moving out of the district, then why are they moving? And is it, it could be about housing availability. It could be about, actually, schools. It could be a lot of things, but it just seems like a very interesting pattern that could be. I think we tossed on this a little bit in the last meeting. So it's, there is a big stereotype about the Wunoski High School, the curriculum as well as, you know, the education system itself there. Because, you know, we, we tossed a little bit about the school twice. And when children get to middle school, they either send the kids to either SSI school, SS, SS or cool sister of Burlington, or, you know, people move out. Because people don't want to wait and actually see what the reality is like. People, people already, people have a fear. They have already heard so many things, rumors about high school. So, yeah. What are the numbers of the students that go, who live in Wunoski, but attend a school out of district? It would be really fascinating to look into to see if it was really choosing outside of the district or if people are actually just like relocating. Relocating, yeah, exactly. So I guess this, I think we have those numbers. Seth might know something. No, I've said it on their side. It's 370 K through 5, 160 middle school, 252 high school. They don't have the numbers of people who do school choice. With a small district half of the numbers, because they would want to know the eligible population. Would they have the numbers of those who select that? I don't know. It's not in the report. What we could do is overlay it with census data. But the census data doesn't clump numbers in the same way. I think it's 1 to 13 or I can't remember. Yeah, their breakdown is kind of weird. I think the school would have at least an idea. Yeah, I can ask Sean and see if he doesn't know and doesn't have it. I'm sure he's got somebody to guide me to who might have that information. So I'll look into that. The other schools might have data on how many of their students are in these key residents. Right. Going back to what Pallas was talking about, I think in this plan, I think it's something to keep in mind are those factors. Housing, I forget all the ones that you named Pallas. The different issues that may impact people moving in or out of the city or families or whatever. I think also there's some way to highlight all the great stuff that they are doing. I personally don't know what those things are, but someone came into my studio a week or so ago and said something about all the great things that are happening at the Winooski School. This was a Burlington resident who was saying that, which was pretty cool to hear. Yeah. And they called Winooski a brave little city. It was like, oh, that's great. That was fine. That was fine. Nice. That was cool. But she was saying how the school district really has a lot of challenges and still does a lot of really innovative, cool stuff. So if there's some way to highlight that in the plan. I think you were saying you were going to put in little stories of what people have done after Winooski. But I think going with that, maybe some quotes from parents with current kids in the system. Because at least for me, not having kids at our school age, it's like a big unknown, but what's always given me reassurance has been talking to people who actually have kids in the school and have really positive things to say about it. And I think even the personal story approach may be more effective, too. And maybe we'll communicate some of those innovative things that the schools are doing. Because what's in there now and then what Sean edited is intended to do exactly that is to highlight a lot of the innovative stuff that they're doing. You know, I think it's a little, or at least in drafting it, it was a little bit difficult from somebody who really is disengaged from education. Never had a kid go through school. There's a whole world of terminology and things that are going on that I think will take quite a bit of effort to describe that to a normal person in terms of why it's interesting and innovative. So hopefully, so definitely take a look at this as Sean edited it and see if it's doing what you want. But I'll definitely do some more research and add more in. So the next time you will see that. The one other piece of data that was still missing from your draft plan is the number of languages spoken at the school. And Sean reported that to be about 20. So we will add some of that information in as well. Sorry, I missed you Sean, Super Appendix. Yes, sorry. 20? Yeah. So the other thing that's going on in the draft that you folks have is in the goal section really tried to narrow that down. It's still a much longer list than the other list in the sections, but about 22 is what we got it, what we got it down to. So if you've got any thoughts about that, we can keep sort of shifting some of that stuff. But for the most part we sort of, we took out a bunch of that real kind of specific things that... Consolidated. What was that? Did you end up consolidating some of those though? Yeah. Yeah. Though it didn't get too many consolidated. So one thing to specifically point out is goal number nine was the kind of placeholder school goal before. What I added in is essentially when you see school districts vision statement, that's what they work from. So I think it made sense to include that. I was able to consolidate the mental health and substance abuse one, but let me know if you want to go even further with that a little bit. But then other than that, I feel like there's a lot of senior housing. Seventeen talks about senior services. Yeah. Yeah. So Seventeen was edited to really kind of get all the senior stuff in there. And then the one thing that we kept that was from the Community Services Commission, number 18, was really a senior specific comment from them. But you folks asked that we kind of broaden that. So I think that makes sense. And that's in there like that. I know we had brought up last time expanding the points. I don't remember what the resolution was on this, but we wanted to make mention of the private educational institutions or other educational programs in the city outside of the Linniesky School District. So I don't know that you'll see much text in here yet about that, but PAM is working on a map, at least visually, to show the number. It's not just when you see School District. Centerpoint, thank you. I was like, does that right? Yeah, Centerpoint, CCV, St. Mike's, UVM, St. Francis. Yeah, all of those will be listed. So it will be visual that you can see all the different opportunities and what wealth of those resources are right here. The other thing while we're on the goals that I wanted to show folks, and our printers just like really, really running out of juice at the moment. So this is a little bit difficult to see. But one of the big comments from the Community Services Commission is this concept that all residents are within 10 minutes walking distance to a park or natural area. It's a pretty great standard that folks under the sort of Parks and Rec world, I forget the National Association that set this as a goal, but it's a good goal to work towards. So PAM made this map because I was, in my mind, I was like, I'm not sure anybody in Winooski is not within a 10-minute walk. Winooski is like a 20-minute walk from Florida. Yeah, so what you have here are 10-minute walking distances specifically focused on Landry Park, Richards Park, and West Allen Street Park, which is a small little park. But you could even have it come off a memorial park. For the most part, most people will be just about 10 minutes reading this. It's one side of the circle, the other side that's 10 minutes, or is it the middle of the circle to the edge of the circle? Middle of the circle to the edge of the circle. Got it. Yeah, sorry. So, yeah, just having, you could just have like a radius line with that. Yeah. So is there, Gilbert and Casavet are the big ones? Mm-hmm. Is there, I mean, I guess you can extrapolate from this map pretty well after 10-minute spans, but is there a reason she didn't overlay that? Just getting too crazy? Yeah, I think she just probably chose three that are kind of as centrally, well, they're not really centrally located, but I think the idea here, once you look at it, is that we could shift these circles to other parks that might be the more appropriate park to focus in on, but I think no matter where we focus the circle, the majority of the city is within a 10-minute walk to a natural area. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, you know, for example, Richard's Park is a gazebo. You know what I mean? Right, you're not going to do a whole lot. Yeah. People walk their dogs and sometimes they pick up the app room. Ray said there's hope though. What's that? Ray said there's hope for Richard's Park. It's just descendants are not maybe open to having structures on it. Descendants of the guy who donated it. Yeah, Richard's. But you can still play Frisbee there. You can play Frisbee, yeah, but there are limitations on what you can do in the deed to the park. Right, but I mean, it's a place where I can be held. I know, but as opposed to like the Gilbrook that's much bigger. So I don't know given that information, I don't know if you folks, what you'd like to do with that goal. We can be more specific about it, though we're trying to stay high level, but it might be more than, I mean, I think that goal in and of itself is not very valuable because for the most part that goal is met. So we probably want to go a deeper level in terms of what we want to do there. And this might be a good question to bring back to the Community Services Commission and just see what their thinking is about it. You know, it's interesting. It's number seven. I was going to say what's interesting about this drawing too. We do talk about greenways between natural areas. There's other ways of using this map that could help. And then maybe it's just having those circles on there just as a enforce that idea. Yeah, right. Just see what we are achieving this and it's an important aspect to the community. That's what makes Winooski so unique. One thing that I think we need to have some place in it. Let me rephrase that. I think it would be nice to have it there is we've got the parks identified here. But a little... There's 740 acres in the city and two... I've got what it is, 240 acres of green space. I mean it's scattered around some, but I mean I think that's... A lot of people don't recognize that there is a lot of green space. A good amount, yeah. And I think it's dubious of circles, right? Because we don't fly places. Right. And if we went by the street grid, we would still be okay. But what I'm looking at is access to parks maybe could be improved where roads might dead end or there might be houses blocking the house and access to the park. So ways to find connections throughout the neighborhood. We know there's the main entrance to Laundry, but I always cut Laundry really in the end. But I don't know behind it that neighborhood, how great is their access to the park. Yeah, it would be really interesting to add access points to a map. So that even before the plan... Like entries, so that even now. Yep. What are all the dots on your agreement? So yeah, sorry. That was our lame attempt so far to get at the more of the greenway concept and what's going on. So those are the trees that have been inventoried. It's a... I forget whether it's a 2013 or 2014 inventory, tree inventory that happened in the city. It's clearly not all the trees. But it's the trees that were in that inventory. So I don't know that that's the best data layer. We might be able to do something a little bit different than that. I think that's all the trees. Yeah. I do think that Abby's point about access, that may be something we want to state about improving access from individual neighborhoods. I was actually... I walked to Gilbrook the other day from one of these residential neighborhoods and there was like a really logical space to access it, but it was like completely treacherous. I mean, I did it with my two-year-old and I was partially like, there is a chance that I'm just going to break a bone doing this, but we're going to give it a go. We survived, but I was like this is... Were we right there? Yep. Yeah, you know it. No, but I know the guy that lives in the house has been telling me that things are being dumped there. Oh really? Yeah. It's always been fenced off. You used to be able to cut through here and go in through the same place, but I think that's fenced off to the path. There was no fence just going straight, but it was like going down a really, really steep hill, then you cross a little street. Because I say 40 years ago there was. 45 years ago. Oh, there was. No, we didn't have to do any fence climbing. Actually, fence climbing with my two-year-old, and maybe fences are something that we should talk about too. Like for instance, there's properties, especially the senior citizen properties that are fenced off, and there's no easy way to get past them, other than jumping the fence your own way out of your way. So the example I can give you is the one that I probably shouldn't admit too that we jumped the fence. But if you go behind beverage warehouse, you can cross the railroad tracks in there. I think it's a senior facility back there. They've got a big fence that runs the span of East Spring. So you have to either go out to Barlow, or you have to go all the way out of your way to East Spring, right to get up to Barlow. Right, there's no sidewalk. So you can either go up behind the Catholic Church and jump the fence into the Catholic property, or you can go and jump the fence just closer to Russell Street on East Ave. Is there any discussion or possibility to, like, have conversations with property owners to say, hey, does this fence need, is this serving a purpose? Does it need to be here? Can we even have, like, a hole in it for people to, like, get around by foot, including your senior citizens that probably want to walk to Richard's Park or walked other things in the area, right? Like, was it put there in the 80s when it was built, and it's just, like, left there because it's there? I wonder if people walk in the track and they're just protecting their property anyway. Well, the track doesn't have a fence on it. Yeah, but the land... It's a non-tracks, actually. I didn't want to say anything, but crossing the tracks is illegal, too. Well, okay, that's the one I'm worried about. It's easy to cross the tracks into the property. So it's not protecting them from anybody on the tractions on the other side, especially keeping anyone on the track in their property. Interesting. Yeah, I don't know why a fence is on East Allen Street except for, or East Spring Street, I'm sorry, keep people in there. So, yeah, I was just thinking, if you have a 10-minute walk but it's a bad walk, then it's not worth having. So I think we need to look at access and the quality of the walk, like, if there's trees or not, or is there anywhere that's... Yeah, so... So I don't know if that goes under... Yeah, I guess that would go under safe. I mean, maybe it's identifying barriers to, you know, pastries or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Just for clarification, are you all talking about that as a future goal to do an analysis of the access points versus the walk or to include in this plan now? Instead of the goal being, like, a 10-minute walk, it would be more improved access and connectivity to the parks. Right, okay. Of that 10-minute walk. Yeah, okay. I just want to be clear. So Regina's not going out and mapping or having Pam map all the walking routes and try to figure that all out. That would be the goal of what we're trying to accomplish here. Sure, but if you want to do it... That would be awesome. I mean, that's what I was supposed to... Fences, I think, probably impossible. There might be... I mean, we can easily map where the entry to the park is. And then visually on a map, you can at least easily see if that's not right next to a road or roads that are disconnected by some other physical thing. But that's likely the most that we would be able to do. Right. Well, our fences too are going to be careful because it's private property. Yeah, we would not... It's the formal entry, sort of the designated entrances. Yeah. So I'm going to interrupt us for a second. What about the secretary? I'm going to interrupt us for a second because we've got eight minutes before we're supposed to switch the next topic. So just keep that in mind. You told me last time you were going to have to put the handle down. Okay, so with that in mind, one of my only other questions from folks other than if you've got general comments on this version is if anybody did their homework about what you want to do with the public safety story. Whoops. So Mike did not do it so well. I didn't mean to jump in my pants on here. I got an email on May 7th, came around a week ago. So I know the chair of the Public Safety Commission has also stepped down. And so I'm also wondering what, like, the current state of our relationship with the Public Safety Commission is. I was their liaison and Mike was really spearheading that process. And before I left, he was preparing something and a lot of it was kind of very centered in him and what he was doing. And so now that he's stepped down, I'm not sure if that, like, alters how they're approaching this. And it's possible that in the weeks, just as I have been hearing that, that has been resolved. But just thought I'd ask. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure either, actually. I don't know. Yeah, so we... Mr. Mara's got his head down. And you're wondering what your relationship is with them? Like, are they coming back to speak to us again now that they... Or, like, what... Are they coming back to re-present? Are they, like, redracting? Or are they... What is their status in presenting goals to us? I don't know. But they have given us two documents. And so we've got their sort of goals, visions. And we... Those are... For the most part, they're striped through in the version that you guys have. Right. Because they're real, real specific. Yeah. So we tried to keep... I tried to kind of bring them up and put in some general goals that I think cover most of what they're trying to do. Then they gave us another document that's really... It's called a story. And it's written very story-like. Almost like a letter to the editor. And I don't know that the voice that it's in is not that it's inappropriate in any way, but it's just not the right voice from a document authored by the city, by the planning commission, and by the city council, ultimately. So our thought was just what to kind of deal with that. I think content-wise, I've tried to pull enough of it kind of into the content you guys already have. So from my perspective, I think it's okay to kind of put it on the side and not include it in the plan, but I just wanted to give you guys the opportunity if you wanted to do something different or more with it. But I think it's fine if we don't include it. So I guess, yeah, sorry. I may have misunderstood your question, Lauren, but it... So the Public Safety Commission Committee has... So they're done, basically. ...weighed in on giving us information. We'll obviously give this back to them to review again, but at this point, yeah, they provided their input. Okay, okay. And there's also a third document, I should say, it's the Police Strategic Plan or something. I forget the title of it. That also has... You know, it's much more in-depth than it will be sort of referenced just like many of the other more in-depth documents are referenced in the plan. So that still exists. So I'm seeing this whole back page where everything is crossed out. So that's what we're talking about. So what are we going to include? So is that what you're asking us? Oh, no, sorry. There's a whole other document that... Is it here somewhere? We handed it out last time. And sorry, I didn't bring in another copy again this time around. But it's just a little bit more storytelling. The story, okay. So it's either this or the story. Is that the question? I think your question is more like, is there anything else in the story that we would like to pull into this plan? Yeah, that's probably the best way to say it. Yes. And if you don't have the story in front of you, that's going to be hard. I just found it. And in the interest of time, what I can do now that we're in sort of this tiny bit closer version of the draft, I can look back to the story and see if there's anything else to kind of pull up. And if I don't see anything, I'm probably just going to leave it. But if folks take a look and see if you want to do something else, let me know. Okay. Okay, wrapping up this section. Anything else? Long to chapter, housing chapter. So I realized about two hours ago that you were completely missing the last two pages of the housing chapter that you've got. So I apologize for that. What you have in front of you is something that looks like this on one side and then goals on the other side. This is the missing last two pages from the housing section. The other item you had at the table was the draft housing, the guiding principles for the housing commission, just to give you a sense of what kind of what their focus is to potentially incorporate some of that language into. And I think mainly the reason, mainly the reason why I provided that for you is because I didn't see any goals in the housing section that Regina gave us. So you can potentially ignore that handout and just look at what Regina gave in color. They look like they're the same thing. Because I believe they're the same thing, or very similar if not the same. The top, how many are there? There's seven from the housing commission. I just didn't include number seven from this because it's not necessarily like a planned goal that you would need to include, but the others are there. Then while we're on the goals we might as well start there. So what I've been doing in each goal section is making sure that the asks that they received from the other commissions are kind of incorporated as best as possible. So you'll see eight, nine, and ten are from the Public Works Commission. And then number eleven was from the Community Services Commission. And the chapter itself doesn't really have anything about homelessness in it yet just because I haven't been able to get to that part. So that's really just a placeholder where we'll put something when we figure out what the appropriate thing to put there. Do we know what percentage is... I don't know. I just did a little bit of research this week in talking with somebody else about the various homeless data counts and whether they're useful or accurate again at a municipal level. And I didn't get rid of our other than at least the data points that Vermont Housing Finance Agency is now hosting on their data website. They've chosen to not include any homeless information at a municipal level because it just don't feel like it's very accurate. But there might be other just much more direct data we could get from people. So I'll circle back on that. And maybe it's not data. Maybe it's just talking about the issue. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Okay. So the other... Are you going to come back to the goals or do you want to talk about it? Yeah. Let's just stick on the goals if that's helpful to people. Any thoughts about what you've got here? Sorry. You're just getting it right now. So it's probably not going to help the conversation. And remember, this is just our first meeting on this. We'll talk about this section again at the next meeting. The only thing on the first go... I'm not exactly... I think what it's trying to say is have a broad range of housing options out there. But using the term affordable housing, it connotes something different than a well-rounded housing site. You know what I mean? I don't know if there's a better term because that term is used. Yeah. Because I think it's the point... like if you should say, there's an element of housing options for a broad range of income levels, like that's a broader initial goal. Or it could be for a broad... just affordable to a broad range of income levels. My preference is to take the affordable out. Only because I think it adds confusion. Okay. I think it needs to come somewhere. If we take it out of that, I think it needs to... What's that? Affordable? I mean, I think for this... for this plan, it's... I mean, that statement is meant to encompass everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, and the housing commission stuff that they're working on, the housing targets, it's going to have the affordable component. It would be interesting... I don't know if in this plan, but in the housing commission work, if they could get a count, the number of affordable units in the city that exist. Yes. It is done? Uh-huh. Interesting. Okay. Do you share the housing data that's available? It seems, for some reason, 54% is sticking my head. I don't know what that's from, but... So... We don't have to go into that. Yeah. So some of it's in there. It's in your draft. Right. Oh, there's the 54%. So some of this, I do just want to circle back with Heather on and make sure I'm describing it correctly because there's lots of great data that just came out of this. I think that's probably this last year. Maybe it's more than this last year. The rental registry survey went out with additional questions that asked much more in terms of what are your actual rents and all that kind of information. And so that's been well documented in all of that work. So some of this, I'm just unclear on whether we're referring to the numbers based on that survey or extrapolated back out to the total because they didn't hear back from everybody. They heard back from the play. I mean, it was a great number of people that responded to the survey, like 75% or something like that. So some of the numbers, I'm just unclear on whether it's extrapolating, you know, taking that sample essentially and bringing it back up to the full level or what. But yeah, there's lots of data. There's lots more data than what I put in here, but these seem like the most logical ones to sort of pull up. Can you say that happened last year? I don't really recommend that to me. I feel like it's happened sometime in the last year. I'm not sure when or how that happened. Yeah. Yeah, even when getting the rental registry, when the survey went out. That's all my questions. Well, they did a secondary one. They did a specialized one as well in the spring. Okay. This is data we have. Do we want to try to, when we go through this, are we going to try to have targets for each zone or something? Do we want to have targets for each income level in a way? I mean, is that something? So that's definitely what the housing commission is working on right now. I think the idea is that we keep this sort of high level and then let that shake out in its own separate process because ideally this is, this gets a stamp of final approval before those get 100% finalized, I think. So that stuff might shift more than when this plan is done. And I think just, I think you're right, this plan wants to stay up here and not getting to those walls. Let the housing commission and, I guess I'm just curious. There was a presentation on this topic. It was like preliminary that I think we saw in the spring. Thank you guys for here. I think it was right in the beginning. Is that, can you remember? Yeah, I mean, so there's been established target percentages for what new units will be in terms of affordability and buy a percentage of mixed based off of immediate income sections. So that's been accepted and the goal is kind of, the goal is informing how they're doing their policy development work in terms of, okay, now you have the goal, what are the levers? I think to the point of things can change, the number of percentages could get adjusted at some period of time is globalized. That's what I would say. Sorry, what's the last five or two to say? I think the idea that those actual numbers could change. I mean, I can see in this plan of being appropriate that the city shall monitor growth, you talked about the gentrification tool and set goals to achieve that kind of mix of affordability and the housing sector, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, keep it right. We want this percentage of net units to be this, AMI and this, yeah. Okay. I have a question. Approximately, this is on the top. It says 72% of front-end households in Louisiana qualify as low income and that's at 80% AMI or below, under 80% AMI, which is also the first row in the chart. So what's the difference between 72% and the new question? Kind of a big difference. Wait, where is this 50%? Yeah, this was part of my question for Heather, I think. So partly, I think, and I will confirm this, that first bullet is potentially coming from people's income, if that makes sense. And I think the third bullet is potentially coming from the actual rents that are out there. Does that make any sense? We can just look at people's income in the city and extrapolate what they might be able to afford based on spending 30% of their income on housing. And then the other way we can look at it is what the actual rents are in the city and how many of your housing stock is essentially affordable. So that might be the discrepancy there, but I'm not really sure. It's a really great question and I've got to circle back with Heather to figure out what exactly is happening there and make sure we're describing it correctly. Yeah, they both talk about moving them as 80% AMI and they want to talk about percentage of housing in households. So yeah, just some clarity on that would be helpful. Yeah, so that first bullet is talking about renter households as in the households and then third bullet are the homes. So I think that's the discrepancy, but we'll figure it out and make sure it's clear. I know this from a report, but I've mentioned several times the growing renter homeowner and disparity in income. And the one thing about that point that I just am curious about is I feel like we're becoming a more, I'm not sure how income is exactly calculated, but I think we're becoming a more attractive city for people affiliated with the university to live in, including students who need to be low income and we want to continue to have students that's going to maybe be a growing segment of our population and that may skew the data, potentially, of an increased disparity when that's because they're students and may not actually be reflective of the situation. So I just want to, that particular point is something that, given the demographics of the city, I would draw attention to. And I think the same is the case of like the interns and residents at the hospital who get payment. That's an important part of our population. Exactly. And so like that trend of like seeing this increasing disparity, it's hard to evaluate if that's something we want to pinpoint as a problem or if we, yeah. And that last bullet, I would point out the same way, I just think it's too broad of a brush when you get the high level of poverty. I think there's probably ways to say that without, because I think it goes back to this being a document we're proud of and also showcasing our time to help from people not familiar with the new ski and just thinking a little bit more delicately about how we want to say. And I look back at the map like four times because it says in the map, this map says high poverty places are 30% to 40% below the population and it's certainly concentrated, right? So I was like, oh, it's only one place but it is three, like three districts on the map that fall within that category. But then to your point, Palace, we don't really know. But that, like, I was really surprised at this area, like, was 30% because that's like the really wealthy, like, kind of, everything that ran on the water and there's a lot of businesses and a lot of students. Like, student places are also- Students are also the data. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be interesting to look at the data by taking out the students to see what that does. Yeah. Is that possible? I don't know if it's possible but I'll think about it. But it gets, like, it gets to that complicated thing too, like, if you take, do you take out the postdocs? Like, do you take out the residents? Do you take out, like, these, um, a lot of, like, the training positions that are very low paid and then there's a huge, you know, increase in pay after a certain number of years. It's like, at what point do you- I don't know. But we definitely have, like, the location to get a lot of people in those kinds of situations. Or just at least to say what percentage are students, just so you can have an understanding. Yeah, just an understanding of it. Why? Um, that's a good point. Sorry. Um, just to bring in demographics with this is a good point because the other, um, demographic that can skew this are, are just seniors because they don't have income, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're, um, uh, in, uh, the poverty class. So, interesting. Yeah. Right. Remember what I was gonna say. And we're gonna, I got to remember what I was gonna say, but then you didn't get to remember. But you're gonna show demographics in the beginning of the document, right? Are you going to have in here, um, a, a, um, description of the housing? Because one of the things that, that, how politically correct the statement will be, but older housing stock tends to have lower rents. You know what I mean? And so to get a handle on what our housing stock is like. Yep. We can try to put something in here to help, um, figure that out. And actually, well, so you've got your rent registry. That's gonna be real clear data, at least on the rental side of things. Um, the other proxy that's sometimes used for quality of data is just general age. So we can add that for sure. That might be the best thing that we can get to, but I'll take a look. The other thing I want to make sure I understood you correctly, uh, Seth, when you were talking, we're not talking about putting targets in this plan. That's coming from the housing commission. I would, I would spoken of that. Yeah. I just, I, I wasn't sure I understood what you were saying, but I want to make sure that that's the case, because I don't think we want this, in this plan, that can be a discussion for someplace else. Um, so, I am looking at this, to a bullet point, there's a growing income disparity between renters and homeowners in Windows P. I mean, I'm just looking at the, you know, renters and homeowners. So, I was also trying to see a language anywhere, if anything, in the introduction background section or in the goals objective section, anywhere, you know, anything done to talk about that and, you know, anything done by the city or in the city level to encourage people to own, create program policies to meet growing income disparity. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any language to, you know, help address that. Yeah, address that. So that's a base number. Do you ever say more than that, or is it just create programs? I'm just curious. I guess they'll go to the housing and figure out how to do that. There's at least something there, you know, if there is more to it. How do you do that? Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly we could get way more specific in this plan, but I think the concept is that we're kind of staying high level and then a lot more of this stuff is worked out at the ordinance level. But I think certainly that all this work, the housing retention ordinance and all that stuff, all of that is intended to try to stop that shift, stop that gap from going larger. So getting to these two points on this page, the growing income disparity between renters and homeowners. I guess my initial thought was must be homeowners incomes are going up and renters are going down, but I'm not sure that's the case. So what's the disparity? Renters or incomes are higher because we've got places with rents of $2,800 a month. I think it has to do with the inclination, seeing the demographic shifts in the city is that it's a demographic thing, which is we're attracting more students and we're also becoming a very attractive destination to young professionals and people right out of school who might be at entry level positions and earning low wages. But I think that if you look at the, I think I've heard that our age, our median age has been going down in Manuski and so I think that the revitalization of the downtown has made us attractive to a population that may actually, people who are going to be renters because they're transient, they're young and they're low income, but that may not be a bad thing. So I'm just being cautious of stressing that point too much. I guess a couple of things. More and more there are people who are choosing to rent but also, I mean, you've got rents downtown that are 25, 200 bucks a month, you need to have a good income to support that. So that's why I'm curious I'm wondering if that income disparity is one growing higher with renters or homeowners, you know what I mean? Because it doesn't say anything. You say that in there, okay. So there's a lot more information behind it and so I'll pull more of that in so that it's clear what's going on, what we're saying, and describe it much more fully than just the blanket statement, which doesn't have a whole lot of information behind it at all. I mean, there is behind it, but it's not here. So the other question is a second bullet Approximately 30 new homes is that homes are units because I can't imagine there's been 30, 90 new homes in the last few years. There have been 90 new units that need more of that. So that's just What's the difference? So a five unit apartment building has five units. A single family is one unit. This says there have been 30 new homes. To me, a home is a single family residence. To me, a home is anybody's home. Right, but I think units is much clearer. Especially considering we're talking about all the rental in the city. So that's a Brenda Torpey is a huge proponent. Anybody's unit is a home. Not going to debate that. But in terms of someone reading this, how is it interpreted? Not everybody interprets it at the same time. Even the state sees it as an efficiency as a unit. One bedroom apartment as a unit. Again, the three bedrooms is a unit. And a single family home is a unit. But this does read like it's a I read it the same way and I wondered the same thing. Where are they? I'm curious. I will switch it. Going back to the introduction. I'm intrigued by this the limited time houses are on the market. I was wondering if that's data driven or if that's more anecdotal. I'd be really curious to see if we had data to show a house was on the market and would you ski? I'm a realtor. Especially the past summer when you ski houses between May and July the average house was selling within 24 hours. If that could be visually represented in some way, I think that would be very cool. It's a great way to show how dynamic a place is. What paragraph is it? Just so I can mark it. It is third from the bottom. Additionally, when you ski as a desired home ownership. Thank you. I'm a seasonal to some degree but when you ski compared to our neighboring towns has been a very hot market. You can look at the median price of housing in Lusky's County in that market. That's true. Another point that's interesting about what's been happening in the housing market in when you ski is that there have been almost 10,000 homes in Lusky's County and it's so low right now that I can say as a realtor people come to me and say I'm interested in living in Winooski and they can't buy in Winooski because there's just so few options. There were entire weeks this summer where there wasn't a single family home. A single family home on the market. That was really distressing and then when they came out it was like a rush of people and it was really tough to find housing. Offering the selling price or going above the selling price. Yeah. Let me look at my question and maybe because I'm just a detail oriented person and I guess when I read some of these goals sometimes they're just so high arching that I'm just like not really telling me much in a way. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of just like I want a little more information but not too much detail. Do you know what I mean? Does anyone else feel that way or are you fine with the level of I mean like we were thinking maybe you could just show an example of a certain program that might mitigate disparity or do you know what I guess I'm just curious. So one thing I was doing in the other chapters was just bring a visual point to it so that we could in the ultimate version when each of these have a visual that helps give a little more detail of what that might look like. I haven't done that yet. Okay, that might help. So that might help. Some of these are they're a little more policy, right? So the visual might be kind of difficult. Like develop regional strategies for de-concentrating poverty. It's like how do you do that? But I mean just like what does that mean? I guess I just want to give some like if just an average person was reading this, I mean the layperson maybe like oh, okay, what do we do with that? I guess they would go to the housing. Yeah. So I can think on that for sure to figure out how we can at least bring some examples or something in some way in here to make these a little bit more understandable. So the bullet says participate in regional dialogue regarding affordable housing. Let's just throw this out. We're setting targets for affordable housing within the community. I believe that we should be looking at affordable housing in Buenos Aires as part of the countywide regional affordable housing. So I don't think we can take Buenos Aires contact with the regional affordable housing thing. So I think that's more of a discussion for the housing commission goals and the city council's goal. I guess I just get a little bit concerned that we're looking inside and out in the region. I'm sorry, Mike, where are you? I'm going to give you a second. I'm agreeing with that statement. And I guess I just throw it out because I want to make sure this consistency between that statement and anything else we talk about. Yeah, this area feels a little weird. This part of it feels a little weird to me. The first bullet says engage the community in the master planning process. Why would we have that? In the master planning? Yeah, and then this indicator, like, are the checks good or bad? Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Yeah, it needs more information for sure. And I don't know, I think actually, yeah, now that I'm looking back at this, those four bullets can probably go away. I think they're like kind of an earlier version of potentially this probably. So I will think on that. Again, I'd like to keep some kind of regional thing. So I didn't I can bring in some regional context at least so that that's there because it's not Winnieski on its own and I can talk about building together campaign. And I presume the regional plan will have some direction for that larger regional approach and presence in some of these issues. Yeah, we don't have specific targets in any way, but yeah. This housing shortage is regional. So we could bring some of that in here. Also going to, and I don't know where we left this about neighborhoods and if we were going to get into the idea of neighborhoods, and right now we're sort of general and like this one, the last bullet saying Winnieski has a high level of poverty which is much more concentrated in specific neighborhoods. So I'm not sure you'd really want to show what neighborhood has the highest poverty or anything like that, but I guess you're sure to show it here in a way. But I guess do we want to start talking about what neighborhoods are and I think that might be too specific. And the problem is how do you find a neighborhood? Right. Has that ever been identified? No. And what were these based on? Is that the census tracks? So there's only two census tracks in the city. That doesn't follow the neighborhoods. There's 24 and 25. So this I think is just kind of broken up by some of the major roadways more so than anything. On page 52 on the map. The census tracks, is that the train that's breaking them up? It's really like on the other side of the tracks? Yeah. The census tracks are on this diagram. So it goes like that. I thought this was the line there. Right. I got it. Because it would be interesting to start describing our neighborhoods and giving them a feeling so that people got a sense of what Manuski was about. Yeah. Maybe that's another strategy that could be adopted with that. We talked about that a long time ago. Identify which neighborhood is which neighborhood and where does it begin and end? Or maybe you could just talk about nodes that sort of is the center of neighborhoods where there might be blurred zones. Well there's also the strategy of not naming all neighborhoods but like we talked about an arts district where you could, and we talked about wayfinding, having like on the street poles flags that say arts districts. So everyone knows like this is the arts district and then the the assumption is that like that is too much. Generally you've got from the tracks north and west of Mount Spay Avenue you've got south of the tracks between Mount Spay Avenue and Main Street and then from Main Street over and kind of just general. You're making a good argument for naming them because does anyone want to live in the south of the tracks? That's how we talk about it. Because I do feel like there's a lot of like just in New York how they're starting to get so I have this lingo about certain neighborhoods and I think it's attractive. I think so too. Again you can, I was talking about kind of general areas but you can within that there are you know I think of my neighborhood is you know the point and Dyan Street up above the town but other people think it's a wider area so I mean I think you're, I think maybe if we're going to go that way kind of talk about areas. I guess that was just something to bring up because I just noticed a lot of times we're starting to talk about neighborhoods and how much detail do we want to talk about. Well we could go back and say the flats and the heights. I feel like getting in a neighborhood much deeper discussion than is probably able to handle. There is a program now to provide like funding for block parties right and stuff like that and so like that kind of like if you were to, we were going to say something about designating a handful of neighborhoods that would be a way to like designate like make sure that funds are being distributed relatively on an equal level to different regional blocks so that you know we'd like try to achieve a balance among different areas and that like everyone could be within a closer distance of one of the block, the block parties that would be funded or something like that. I mean one thing we could do is just talk about residential neighborhoods as a category. You know as opposed to downtown So there's two. What's that? That would just be two different things because I mean it's pretty much residential. Well I guess maybe in the same place. Yeah you could say gateways, industrial parks, I mean you could do whatever you want but I mean just kind of generally. And when I think of probably old school when I think of neighborhoods I think more residential. So maybe we just talked about residential neighborhoods. Because we do have areas where it's happening. Because I did like also maybe you do talk about zones because you could have a few neighborhoods within a zone you know what I mean and that might be an easier way I don't know. Anyway it's just food for thought. I think one of the challenges with neighborhoods is really a neighborhood is where somebody associates. So like what Mike was just talking about that's what you define as your neighborhood but your neighbor might define it as a much broader area. Or a much more narrow area. So I think it's such a subjective thing that unless it's unless the city has clearly defined the boundaries of it then it's I think it's it gets a little bit more challenging. Well we have I mean if you look at our gateway districts like Mallets Bay there's Weston Mallets Bay there's between Mallets Bay and Main Street Main Street to 89 and the other side of 89 those are pretty clearly defined geographic areas that I could see because they have the big roads that sort of make crossing into the other neighborhoods a little bit. Yeah it's interesting. I don't know like how these things are typically normally defined or designated. I mean I certainly don't think it's typically like a kind of top down here's where we're going to be and kind of not that I'm suggesting that which that's what is going on here but they're probably for different reasons like it's either city council districts or something or like there's some reason traditionally it probably happens I don't think it's hard to do it I think about like there's like yeah I think in some cases that's true that's probably true like you think of Burlington and like the my sister's neighborhood like what I don't know the mayor is just dying for it I had to say something It's interesting I was just in part of the main and I stayed in Monroe area right which is like this transition to the district right and I started googling at night like when people define neighborhoods is it a good thing or isn't it and the thing that I found from planning people was it's a bad thing if you do it arbitrarily it's a good thing if it's done naturally and I think the issue we're always going to have in Nuski is that we are ourselves the neighborhood like we were a neighborhood of Colchester that was like the middle part of Colchester right and we developed this common community as one big block and it wasn't sub-sected I mean Mike you can probably point to the streets and maybe we're more Irish well no I was going to say way back like in the early 1900's there were neighborhoods because you had where the Irish lived down in Cork Alley you had where the French lived you had different the new immigrant populations back then that came in as groups and they settled together and it was in a mix so you don't have I'll go back to the old day the Irish neighborhood, the Italian neighborhood the French neighborhood, whatever everything's in a mix now so I think you're right I think Nuski is I think we look at ourselves globally as a neighborhood but within that I think of my neighborhood though it's not specifically defined it's kind of this area that I lived in and I think other people do the same when people ask where you live what do you say you just say the name of the street well I say Nuski I live behind beverage warehouse everybody knows beverage warehouse and if you don't know what you see I say Russell so I feel like we do say certain things that people ask more courage maybe I say my street and people say where is that I'm just really concerned that people Nuski want to see if they self-identify as being part of a neighborhood it would be interesting but it does make sense because New York City is so huge so you want to feel like have part of a neighborhood so they've created these it doesn't probably be much larger than ours but are they created or do they get created organically I think probably both well the other thing too is that Palace top environment that the natural splits when you have a big city that has freeways going through the trains or whatever there's a natural split yeah so you have to cross 18 railroad tracks and get to the next area of neighbors so you don't associate necessarily with them I mean I do feel like we already do have organic neighborhoods at least in my impression I live on the west side of Mallets Bay just barely I basically live on Mallets Bay but as soon as I cross over to Union Street the street names even change in my case because there's Union Street which turns into West Lane I live on West Lane when I cross Mallets Bay Avenue to get over to Union Street I do it all the time I feel like I can obviously walk there just across the street but I do feel like I'm in a different neighborhood everything moving west feels like it's part of a neighborhood and then when I cross Mallets Bay I feel like I'm in a new neighborhood which I access and I use and I'm a Winooski resident and it's fine but it does feel yeah because you start going up the hill so it starts feeling really different I don't know and when I meet people who live down on my side of the hill I'm like oh you're in my neighborhood and when it's up the hill I'm like oh but it's just different and I think I don't know everyone has a different style and preference as a real term neighborhood designations are very useful in discussing with people where they want to be and what they want when we lump all of Winooski together in terms of our branding to other people it's more trickier so I'm a big advocate I think of Chicago which I'm sure has the history maybe related to the political divisions in the city or something but the city has put up these flags in every single neighborhood you're confused about where you are you just look up and it's like you're in Edgewater you're in Lakeview, you're in Rogers Park you know exactly where you are and I think that actually my experience has actually strengthened the neighborhood identity since it's crystal clear to everyone at all times where they are some cities use different style of street life that will tell you which street you're in so we have five minutes left on our schedule so um okay so I don't have any other specific questions for you anyone have any other thoughts? I mean I might just a final thought on the neighborhood things maybe we could agree to put something general in our plan about fostering neighborhood identities or like fostering the development of neighborhood identities to support the community's needs or something like that like fostering the development of neighborhood identities yeah because what happens does the city deal with distributing funds throughout the city? is there certain I mean is there certain I mean I would think you'd have to distribute we know we're at large for everything there's no we have two census tracts as mentioned now what could become very difficult for us is that if those two census tracts come back from the census with drastically different numbers we could run into a situation where one half of the city is eligible for things and the other half isn't and that would be very interesting but politically remember we're all at large with no party designations too so those those dividing things and our demographics are balanced enough so for example there's 25 opportunity zones in the state the new IRS designations to help community investment we're the only community in the state with two and it's both of us it's our entire city we've got two of the 25 it's awesome but and also when you talk about distributing city resources for example streets all that stuff streets I think they still do what needs to be what needs to be worked on it doesn't matter if it's over on the west side or east side, south side or north side it's all looked at as one because it's so small housing commissions have a lot of conversations about do you subset policy around housing to certain areas and their decision ultimately was no it was to say make it all by citywide make it all you can do replacement housing someplace else in the city as long as you're meeting that that's a geographical limitation to a one square mile okay anything else so so I guess the next thing is a view of future meeting schedule or master plan topics yes so we will continue housing discussion incorporating Regina's edits that you all discussed that Regina incorporates at our next meeting which will be September 13th and then we will begin the review of the demographics and background information so we're starting to get through I believe that's the housing is the last main section before we start getting into some of the other parts and pieces like implementation background demographics things like that so we're starting to come down to the end fish but nowhere near not anywhere close Regina do you have have the working draft in a single document or is it all piecemeal at this point? it is in a single document that's something you can share yeah I think we definitely after the next version it starts to be when the introduction which is the last main piece of it we can definitely start to share it because right now just with each of the pieces it seems like way all over the place but once the intro is in it we can start just like I can send you the whole document instead of continuing to send you just each section and then find out too late that I cut off for me personally it would be helpful to start to see it all something else I just want to put on your calendars now while I just thought about it is we've got on our on our schedule a public engagement event is tentatively scheduled for the 30th of October what we're talking about or what we have talked about at least internally is trying to tie that with the Winooski Halloween on the 27th of October we have a table so that we can hopefully reach a larger set of the public lay out some of the bigger themes so if you're available they'd be great for you to be able to help out and participate so speaking of that kind of that is the farmers market where we stand on that remember we talked about having a table or information booth at the farmers market I think the big hold up with that we were waiting until we had enough material to put out there and I think again once we get the you know I don't think we've had that yet the farmers market is going to end soon until October 7 so we should probably so we should start October okay maybe two times what's that maybe we should go out there two times for the farmers market maybe we could if we're there like in September just to talk about hey we're doing the plan are you aware of that here's a link or whatever yeah I think so far the chapters have been so kind of out there that we haven't put them on the website yet but I think we will soon maybe like three or four weeks certainly by mid September at least I'll feel better about a draft good enough to at least put on a website you know outside of your planning commissions I mean even if people are planning a farmer's market with kind of an outline you know without necessarily specific stuff but an outline here's kind of what the shape is taking yeah and I think it would be good to all with something to do with the farmers market to pull out some of the goals so we have a sense of under this section these are the goals that we're talking about and under this section these are the goals we're talking about to give so it's not just kind of an ambiguous type of thing and it might be interesting to take a few images of like maps so people who live in town be like oh yeah I live there oh and it might engage people more too and we can use that as a way to get it from the public as well on any maybe that's a good way to start talking about neighborhoods where did you walk from so the 13th is a Thursday so the 16th I think would be a Sunday the farmers market that'd be too soon go the 23rd and then we need to go or just do the last two farmer markets what would that be we'll look at the schedules and see what we have available and what might make sense to display I guess it kind of might make sense to do two weeks in a row so maybe the last two farmers markets could use a little time as well I think on my original schedule that I can at least be available to help is the 23rd September 23rd September 9th September 23rd and then the 7th the 7th so that's Columbus Day weekend so that's just it's more difficult for me I don't know if it's more difficult for anybody else but I'm not thinking and honestly I'm probably not going to do this because Sunday is my only day off so you should just talk about the Manuski plan that's the Burlington farmer market on Saturday yeah there's no islander Manuski people I'll do that you know there's actually when we've done this in the past it's a lot of non Manuski residents that go to the Manuski farmer market interesting it's a lot of non Burlington residents but it's a lot of farmers there's a lot of funding really runs that interesting so let's finalize it at the next meeting but maybe we look at the 23rd as one in the week after the last week we'll take a look at the schedule and see what makes sense all right any other business anyone want to adjourn yeah so you can make a motion to have everybody go to move it I'll second that all in favor pose isn't it kind of ridiculous you have to make a motion to adjourn who's going to say no maybe there was a heated argument next time I had a seal I'm going to teach that lecture that I'll give you all