 I mean, there's the video, there's the background, there's the man, four time NBA champ, John Sally joining us now. Uh, hold on. What's going on with your back on this morning? I'm in out of space. I'm always in out of space. I'm not an alien, I'm in out of space. What's happening? Good vibes. No, this is good, man. We want to talk about everything, honestly, and pick your brain a little bit, so much going on in the league. I think the big story last night has to be the return of Draymond after the long suspension coming off the bench. They don't look great. For you, in your opinion, does he need to change the way he plays? Are they at rock bottom? What is your take on the way this warrior team looks right now? I was with us, you know, not to brag, but you know, Chicago Bulls had us in for the Ring of Honor last week and I'm sitting next to Steve Kerr and I go, when's Draymond coming back? He said Monday against Memphis. He goes, sound, they scored 75 on us in the first half. I said, I know is why I asked why it was Draymond. So I believe he's the energy. I said this on another show that I won't mention undisputed and I said that I thought he was the energy of the squad and you know, you can be upset with the way he is, the way he comes in, but I've never seen, well, I haven't seen in a long time a player who plays every game and who is intense and inside of that game. Now, yeah, he did grab somebody by the neck in a full Nelson, which I totally understand. Some people that walk up to me, I want to put in a full Nelson, but, and he did get his jersey ripped, but he was being a protector for his team. You know what I'm saying? Imagine somebody coming up to Louisville and pulling one of the curls out of his head. You know what I'm saying? You know, you can't do that. So you need somebody up there doing that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rishi Wallace, he said that, you know, that 2004 Pistons team is to blame for all his antics, basically the bullying that he does was from hanging out in that locker. Are you buying that? I'm buying it. I'm buying the fact that he's from Central Michigan. He's seen what it takes from that 2014. He grew up being a bad boy fan. It's that mentality that you have to take when you want something. It's very American, very American. So I, I think, I think him being a strong minded, but as an intense player, like they can say what he wants to be that in between height and to be able to get there and hit a three when necessary, go to the basket, play the toughest defense on everybody. Take every, everything the referee is saying, making you pay attention to him and not try to run up and beat up on clay or beat up on stuff. This is, this is an important piece of the game. It's, it's the guy, you know, not going to say the garbage man, but the guy who does all the dirty work. With that being said, how would, how would Dre fit on those bad boy teams of, of you guys? How would he fit on those, on those groups? He would fit great. I don't, I don't know if he would take the place of Dennis Robin is no one can take the place of big man. But the mentality is definitely there. It's definitely somebody we would want on the squad that thinks about us first. But Bill and Bear used to have this attitude and this mentality. I remember I was playing against Atlanta Hawks and you know, I went to Georgia Tech. So my whole four years in college, I'm playing against Dominique and Tree Rollins and, and, and, and the like. And when I got up to, I think Thanksgiving, I was more comfortable with those guys and I wore the pistons. And so I went to Kevin Willis's house with Thanksgiving and all kind of the next day they dragged me up and down court. They elbowed me in different ways and Bill and Bear says, it may be your boys, but when they're wearing, when you, when you're wearing these colors, these are, you're our guy. And I never forgot. I'm glad it happened my first year. I'm glad it happened within the first month of me playing because when I went to play against MJ, you know, we're both fraternity brothers, Omega Sapphire Incorporated, the best fraternity in the world. And I put them on his back. He was like, man, you wanted him. I said, MJ, I've always been one of them. But after the game, I'm all over you, right? I loved, I loved the Ferrari. Nobody hanging with me after the end of the game. But listen, that mentality of us against the world is that why you see that you see those t-shirts say Detroit against everybody. So Draymond has that mentality of us against the world. And he is right. When we look back in 10 and 20 years, we're going to realize Draymond was right. It's them against the world. And he has to be the intimidated he is. He has to be the intense player he is. I would, you know, I'm sorry. He had to take so many, you know, games off, but both of you guys know if you can get a break in between the season, take it. That's a fact. So where the game is today with the physicality, would do you think a bad boys team like that will work in today's game? Would it be so different? No, I don't because I think now we realize back when I played well, a while ago, I would say players were making not as much money as they were making now. So now players off Fortune 500 companies coming in as as ice ice. George government would say is they get paid on potential. They're not getting paid on talent. They get paid on what they think they're going to be. And they're getting paid according to what the the person last year got paid. So they got a new contract. If you get paid, whatever you pay, number 10 last year is going to be at least 20 percent more this year. So a lot of that would not have worked. Plus, I think this game is an international more of an international game now in Asia, and it's not good when players show what they consider to be insubordination to the referees or to the yelling and arguing. They don't want that kind of mentality or that kind of game in front of their audience. So we had to change it. And I think it's I think what we did. Everyone keeps saying that we were the bad boys. But if you ask George James Worthy, James Worthy was like, they're not bad boys. They just play hard. It's the Celtics who were doing the dirty ones doing all kind of stuff. Yeah, I'm telling on them, those Celtics. You know, it's I can't even celebrate anymore without getting teed up. But I when you play, John, it was probably for a lot of us considered our favorite time of the NBA and the names that get brought up all the time. And it usually is on the heels of a Dreymon moment because we bring up Mahorn and Lane beer and all those guys. Were you ever intimidated by any of them? Was there one guy that you just sort of wanted to stay away from? On my team? No, anywhere, anywhere, like in the time you played, yeah. No, no, like we would come in, drink all the drinks, smoke all the smoke and girl all the girl. So we would we would have won. You know, if your girl came to the game, you know, the boy boys at the end of the game, she would have at least five numbers on a piece of paper. They wouldn't work, but we would we would definitely we would definitely make you think about hating us the next time you played. No, we we were the guys who were black. The reason we took on the persona of the Raiders, Al Davis and my guy, Ronnie Rothstein. Not Ronnie Ross, Ronnie Ross, it was coach Onstein. Onstein made sure we had all this Raider gear and Bill and Ben was like, hey, we're going to be like the Raiders of the NBA. So, you know, we were thinking of manifesting that mentality that we were going to be the bad guy and everybody remembers the bad guy. That's why they talk about our team, which was 35 years ago when our first championship. They still talk about us, but, you know, him talk about those teams of Milwaukee or or those those bad teams in San Antonio. They talk about us because we left a last impression, I would say, in their brain. Yeah, the branding before branding was even a thing. Well done. Look, Isaiah Thomas has who knows? Like we know what MJ thinks and sort of a lot of that was brought up again in the last several years. But for you, is he misunderstood by the rest of us? Like, what kind of guy is Isaiah? So misunderstood. OK, well, how tall are you? Six. How tall are you? OK, so Isaiah is an inch shorter than you and was playing in the air with Bird, Magic, Akeem, who I mean, just just to name those three. OK, Michael, he was six one, giving them more than 20 points a game. Passing the ball with the same at the same time and a team that no one was paying attention to in the middle of the country. He literally took this team from he was 19 years old to winning championships two in a row. And, you know, it just it didn't fit into, I guess, into the program or into the script, because we really changed the way things were. And Isaiah was the catalyst for that. He was Zeke was always the one that had to take all of the pressure. So, yeah, they don't understand him because he he's going to smile at you and give that beautiful Isaiah smile and kill you at the same time. So he was misunderstood. I think a lot of people wanted to jump on him and say he was the reason Michael didn't get them, didn't get the ball. And I remember them saying that he didn't want to give him the ball to all star game. I watched Isaiah give him a bounce the ball on the ground slam dunk. He wanted to give MJ the ball. And then when they talked about him not going into on a dream team, that was political. It had nothing to do with that. Because if if you put Isaiah on the squad, you can't have stopped him. Like, and they need it. If you watch it, they needed the team to look a certain way. And Isaiah was was going to outshine all of them. And you put Isaiah in a situation, he's going to dribble it, shoot it from deep, make you look back on the basket. And that is more entertaining than what they would have put on a on a on a car. Remember, they put Christian Leighton in front of Shaquille O'Neal. So obviously, yeah, we obviously is had nothing to do with what the talents are. It was what the team needed, what they felt and needed to look like at the time. So he's totally misunderstood. Yeah, John, moving on to the Detroit Pistons of today. They're four and 36 historically, historically bad as a former piston. How frustrating is this, you know, beginning of this season, Ben? Or you don't really care. I do care. CP, of course, I care, man. I, you know, we have out of all my teammates, we have a chat that I have with the Pistons and I left the Pistons in 1992. I only played six years there, but we still have this this this unit, I would say. The fact that they've never hired one of one of any of the players that won championships for Detroit. Yeah, Rick Mahon does does play by play. Vinnie Johnson did do play by play. That's it. Bill and Bear went and won two WNBA championships and they still didn't get a shot at being a coach there. They have picked around our team not to take that. And they tried everything they could to try to, you know, get to something new. Let's think about, you know, getting to this as go on this side and they should have hired Bill and Bear. Bill and Bear is a great coach, would have been great for the organization. It would have kept it all in house. What happened to the Celtics? They hired their ex players. And when they hired those ex players, they have, I think, 17 banners, 16 banners. It's what they used to do. It was a smart thing to do. It kept the mentality of the team intact. And I think they're doing it every other way has hurt the squad. Interesting. So let me ask you this. No, that's we I didn't have I didn't expect that perspective, but it makes a lot it makes a ton of sense, man. And let me ask you this. You played a year in Chicago, won a ring with MJ in 96. You got to tell me what that was like. That's like my my glory years of that's when I learned to be a basketball fan. What was what was that year like? Man, let me tell you something. So first, the Barthol said it was the first of its kind. Had a track inside Olympic lifting Olympic style weight weight room. It had a swimming pool. Had three rooms for massage therapy to sign your name on the top. Well, you had to sign your name because Michael and Scotty's was put there in ink. So everybody after them. But it was like traveling. I mean, it was like being with the Beatles, Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson, all at the same time. It was I remember we pulled up to the the hotel in New York, the plaza. And I'm from New York and I have walked around it. I've been the bird of bird of Goodman across the street. I was right across from Central Park. And we pulled in the back and I didn't even know there was a back. And we got we got out and we got ushered in. And we went upstairs and it was this this unbelievable layout. Like I thought I was at a ball or a gala or something like that. Gala for those who don't speak the language. And I and they handed us the keys. And my room, you know, you usually get a room. Hey, fellow, you know, hey, man, don't leave me, man, you know, give me five minutes. You know, that kind of stuff. Man, I had a huge room. I thought I was balling. I said they gave me the wrong room. I'm not giving this up. But Michael and Scotty and Dennis and Phil had the suites upstairs. Wow. And I was like, yo, I'm going out with Randy Brown and go, where are we going to go? I said, why should we go anywhere? Like this room, I'm not leaving this room. You know what I'm saying? I'm stealing one of these one of these silver plates, platters and bringing it back to the crib. Are you serious? It was it was, I would say. And then we were flying on MGM flight. So you guys wouldn't notice, but MGM used to have this plane that all the celebrities just to fly in the red eye. Like CPU would have been on a MGM plane with it. It looked like it looked like one of those planes you get on now, right? It looks like a Virgin plane. It had a bar. It had different looking flight attendants. It was it was unbelievable. You know what I'm saying? You didn't have grandma flight attendants. Oh, I forgot your brother. No, it was like what? And we were flying this all over. And I mean, Michael had his security and it was a trip because Michael's plane would take his security ahead, which was I think about this man, if they would fly on his dead ahead, Michael would fly on the plane with us. And the the I don't gamble. Well, I have, you know, been to some nightclub, so I guess I do gamble, but I don't gamble the gambling on this plane, right? God bless it. So Jack Haley, good guy. Jack Haley playing those games and when they be pissed and Jack would be like, I got him the dates out and he was like, you know, look, stocks. It was it was the food was better. I mean, I think I had a great pineapple from Costa Rica and the farmer bought it to the plane. That's how that's how it was. That's how it was. It was it was it was the best best basketball experience I've ever had. And I realized what it's supposed to be. And that's what it's supposed to be. Pat Riley, I heard, does that. He makes the experience. The plane is unbelievable. It makes you when you when you quit, when you quit, it makes you have depression because you have to go back to Southwest, even though I love Southwest, not trying to hurt Southwest. Shout out to Southwest. I don't want to mess with your sponsors, but it puts that in a whole different you want to you want to be there. Like when they invited us back for this Ring of Honor last week, my first answer was yes. And my second answer was yes. That's great. This organization is Mr. Shout out to Mr. Rides off. That's dope. That just makes me jealous. You know what? Speaking of the Ring of Honor, the viral moment was the worst moment of the entire thing when of course, the home of Krause is on the Jumbotron because Jerry Krause is being celebrated and of course, Chicago fans don't have great feelings. And they booed to be in that moment. What was that like? I was sitting behind, feel like right almost next to her. Like and I saw her going like this and crying. I felt really bad for her. Yeah, really bad for her. And that would have never happened on any other team. Like it wouldn't have happened in Detroit, but maybe if you played in Philly, the crowd would have thrown some at him. But it wouldn't happen. But the crowd in Chicago is so embedded. The fact that they knew who love was, they knew who Red Cur was. They are everybody being on it. I saw one of my heroes and I was next to him. Was artist Gilmore. And I when that happened, I felt for her. Ron Harper put his hands on her shoulder and then everybody started touching it. They started cheering because they realized it wasn't Jerry. Jerry wasn't there. Jerry's dead. Yeah, you know, it's a Chicago. It's a Chicago thing. I'm saying it's like you say Al Capone, you know, I'm saying they still they still are happy about having Al Capone. So it's a different city. They have really, really, really feel for that. And then I think the show that really put a hole that could never be filled was Last Dance, because when you watch Last Dance, you real raw eyes, Jerry was being a general manager. He was having to make the team young. He was having to change things and they didn't want things to change. They wanted it to run until the wheels fell off. And Jerry was having to make moves. I mean, think about the smart moves he has made. One, hiring me when he should have very smart to Tony Kuko. Tony Kuko being on that squad, they leave him out. They I'm glad he is mentioned like he's supposed to. He was one of the greatest players I've ever played with. But wasn't even overshadowed by Michael and Scotty because he proved that he was a great player. But, you know, they looked at it at that time as a threat or was changing something when they could have looked at it as he was adding to the squad. And and they should have because Tony Kuko was a great, great player, great guy, too. So I feel sorry for his for his widow for that. They're going to have to realize that. And I remember those people used to call us Detroit Pistons classless. That was classless at the time. But those teams are very emotional. I mean, after Scotty saw the last dance, I don't think he is coming back. He came back to Chicago. I heard to promote his alcohol, but nothing else. Yeah, that's actually awkward. All right, so you play in the Bulls that single season. Take a few seasons off, show up with the Lakers. When you signed the deal with the Lakers, rumors were had something to do with Shaq. Is that true? Yes. OK. Well, this is what happens. I'm living by five doors from Shaq in Beverly Hills. He doesn't even know I stay in shape, you know what I'm saying? I don't want to bother him. But I'm watching the game. And it was it was the shortened season and 1999 and I called Phil. And I said, hey, man, you're not going to let these two guys, these two great guys, not win championships, man, you got to come back. And we put that triangle in these guys who win five, six championships in a row, just like in Chicago. And he said, who you've been talking to? So I said, well, you know, I don't really talk to that many people. What do you mean? He goes, well, I just signed the deal, but no one knows that. How did you know to call me? And I go, well, you know, you know, I'm hooked up like that. The universe looks out for me, Phil. And he goes, you in shape? And I said, yeah, I stay in shape. Yo, man, I was eating Oreos at night, peanut butter, jelly sandwiches, ice cream. You know what I'm saying? And he said, well, go down to UCLA and Jerry's down there. They got some runs to let him see you, you know, play. And I said, when he said about two weeks, Jerry be back, man. I was I was on the track every day. And then when I got in there and this is this is not a hit on them, but it was Olden Polonies and Benoit Benjamin and they were playing in there. And when I looked and it was I got to play against these two. Oh, my God, I'm going to be a Laker this year. Man, I put on a show. Nice. I put on a show. I was like, you two have to die in order for me to live. I tell your mom off with your head off with your head. And I put on a show and you know, Jerry was like, oh, great. This is going to be great, man. When I got in, I said, I live five doors from Shack and we run an offensive. Right. And and and Tex winners, man, is, you know, going his way about. And I was like, hey, you can't teach these guys the way you taught us to play. We have a thing in a triangle called away, we're almost out of time, John. Oh, OK, you have to come back because we're going to need like six hours of stories with John Sally. I know because CP even say anything. He just looking over there. No, I need you to come back tomorrow. So.