 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very glad to be joined by Mr. Tommy Peorek, who is a professional drummer and most importantly a buddy rich historian Tommy Welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much Bart. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes We've made it happen my friend because this one I I've looked back And I usually say this on the show and when they've taken a little while to schedule because it happens all the time But you go back to me originally emailing you in April of 2018 is when oh, oh my are you kidding me started because that is literally very very close to right when I started the podcast in general and the reason I found you is because Jim Messina Who everyone knows I hope because he's been on the show and it's just a kind of a a well-known figure in the vintage community who has vintage drums talk Did a great video with you at the the Chicago show with your awesome Buddy rich snare drum collection. So that's that's how I discovered you so shout out to Jim and That really kicked it off and and I have to I just have to say I am shocked. It was 2018 I'm embarrassed by that. I apologize. All right. I'm in high demand. I just got to tell you Man, yeah hardly it's just the way it goes. I'm glad we finally get together Absolutely, and you're here now and that's all that matters and so as I said before Tommy is a buddy rich historian and really Really knows his stuff and and we could talk about a million different buddy things but this is a very Pretty specific thing that we're gonna talk about which is buddies snare drums from you know We you kind of have a specific Some specific dates that we're covering So why don't you just give us a little description of what we're talking about and then we can we can jump right in and Start with the first of our I believe 15 snare drums. Yeah, which will we'll try and certainly get through. Yeah That is absolutely true Buddy was a snare drum Hound I mean everybody knows it everything emanated from the snare drum for him and I discovered there was a period where he went absolutely bonkers with the snare drums, I mean, it's incredible and When I decided to try and research and put this actual collection together That is where I focused because the guy was changing snare drums sometimes twice a year That being said, yeah My collection ranges from 1949 1950 and I decided to end In 82 yeah, and and I'll just pop this in here after 82 He no longer had an endorsement. Nobody was interested and there were many reasons for that But he got that restored set of you know Slingerland Radio Kings from Joe McSweeney and he only ended up using one snare drum possibly two from 1982 till when he passed In 87 so anyway, that's why my collection focuses from 50 to 82 Yeah, yeah, and and I should clarify I said it before a little bit But just to kind of like, you know make it more obvious you have you know owned and and and showcased these snare drums and the video I described with Jim Messina was really a A you would have like a booth and you would you know, this is all pre-covid obviously then but you would have a booth And you would showcase each Not the the buddy owned snare drum because that would be a you know, unbelievable amount of money for all those but the Identical snare drum correct of each era and it gets better than that even which which I'll tell you This is what made this collection. I think so Focused not only were each of these snare drums the drum he was playing at exactly that period in his career That wasn't good enough for me. I had to make sure I found a drum The drum itself was correct. Yeah, in other words date of manufacturing when he played it to that era That was super super difficult and that's what really really made this collection So special. Yeah, that's what's important though is that that's why again, like I said, you're you're definitely a buddy rich expert so alright, let's jump in here and and and Mention the date that we're starting again And let's maybe just kind of start going down the line here and and and knocking off these These snare drums as we go. So what's our first buddy rich snare drum? I just want to say this too. Here's what we'll do I think this might work really well Certain drums in this collection, but he was absolutely knocked out with he was nuts for I Might focus a little more on those the others were He was just like blowing through them looking for that magic snare. I guess. Yeah, so it won't be that bad Cool that being said the first drum in the collection was a 1949 1950 WFL 3 by 13 Bebop which Ludwig named the buddy rich bebop That is so out of character for buddy. I mean think about that 3 by 13 Small it's very small. Yeah, exactly the reason for that He had gotten away from playing big band material around this time He thought he might be wanting to get into bebop and what have you that's why that drum came to be hmm Yeah, and and he played it, but not that long at all for the very simple reason Around 1955 maybe slightly earlier. He was right back into big band because that's his love. Yeah For sure. So that yeah that being said I Have a picture in my personal collection of buddy in the studio in 1950 1950 doing a recording with that 3 by 13 I don't think that picture has really been seen all that often Sometimes I'm very hesitant to just throw stuff up on the internet, but anyway there it was he's actually playing it and That's that. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we all know though But like at that point in time, buddy rich is obviously very famous He's one of the you know biggest drummers in the world if not the biggest drummer in the world So he can get any gear he wants, right? I mean, that's fair to say so true But oh my god, see there's a whole nother can that we could open as far as endorsements That's a whole nother discussion. Yeah, but no, you're absolutely right. You are indeed Was he endorsed by WFL or was this a just I like this drum I'm gonna, you know, now try it out, you know, it's been said many times But he has said it in so many interviews live and otherwise. I don't give a crap what the drums are their drums I play him. Well, he's not being factual. He did care Yeah, but that being said no, he didn't care what company came knocking as long as he got his equipment And by the way, he started with Slingerland in 1919 and went to Ludwig I think during the 20s. Don't quote me on that because that one I don't have in my memory But he stayed with WFL for quite some time. Hmm. So now we move to 1955 Buddy is back with his big band and the three by 13 bebop ain't cutting it So William F. Ludwig the original the old man Designs the five and a half by 14 buddy rich super classic And that's the snare drum he used for pretty much the rest of his Ludwig endorsement And there are a ton of those out there. I mean a ton they sold like proverbial hot cakes Yeah, of course. Yeah, so he's playing his his signature snare drum, right? He is indeed as a matter of fact, you just raised a good point without even knowing it Buddy rich rarely if ever played custom built snare drums They were off the rack whatever he was playing when you went out to see him in a club you could buy Wow, that's pretty cool that it's it's the real because that happens sometimes where you see a Whatever X drummer playing this that you know their their signature snare drum comes out and it's It's $300 and they're playing a $3,000 snare something where it's not exactly The right it's the water down version that you get but but I guess buddies just he's like, you know I'll play it give it to me exactly off the rack and you were exactly right about that, you know spot on The cool thing about the super classic and then we'll move on To be a buddy rich and this is a big problem with a lot of collectors That I try to help has to have the right throw off and the right, but That snare drum came two different ways also one other really important thing buddy Never played nickel hardware. He just did So even in 55 to be a BR super classic. You really want that to be Chrome Got you interesting. So anyway, buddy ended up leaving WFL Ludwig in 1959 and he hooked on with Rogers in 1960 which is Really neat because so many people that I've chatted with over over the decades and I am one of these guys Think that Rogers was the best fit for him as far as equipment It's it's just hard to say that he ever ever had better sounding drums than those Rogers Celebrities that's that's just all there is to it. Anyway, he hooked on with Rogers in 1960 And he ended up staying with them until 66 Which is, you know a six-year period and he was very very happy Everybody knows this today so much information is out there the Dinosonic snare drum specifically the wood model, but he favored that one over the chrome over brass Was in fact designed for him The interesting question is did he like it? Yeah, not so much He played it, but he wasn't super super knocked out with it and I guess you could say from this point on Starts the hunt For the an air quotes snare drum for him the one that's just gonna knock him out And I'll just throw this in here now a lot of guys don't know this while he was with Rogers. This is 1965 He's playing the BR celebrities He's got the Dinosonic or does he He hooked up with Bob Grasso Who didn't even have the Fibes drum company yet? Wasn't even named that was called G and M custom drums and that stand for Grasso and Morena that was his chemist They had come out with fiberglass. Everybody knows that now, but he heard it. He was friendly with Bob Grasso Had to have that fiberglass snare had to have it Well, there's no real company then so Bob Grasso Dave buddy rich his personal snare drum Now this is 1965. He's with Rogers. He loves Joe Thompson, but he did he loved the two top guys at Rogers But he was so fond of Ben Strauss and Joe Thompson, but still I Guess you could say he put a scab drum up on that on that stage What they did was they took that? GNM custom Wrapped it in chrome put on Rogers lugs Rogers throw Rogers, but so from a distance it looked like a Dinosonic, but he played that drum Loved the thing absolutely loved it until he was caught playing that fiberglass snare drum They were not happy and this is amazing buddy for one of the like few times in his life, I guess Did the right thing he said all right I'll I'll take the snare drum off and and I'll play Rogers and he ended doing that for at least another year Until around 66 and everybody knows that story DBS came in they bought Rogers Disagreement with buddy. They didn't want to back them They didn't want to give him any money blah blah blah blah, but he said Middle finger. I'm out of here So he leaves Rogers This is where it really gets interesting and we can all blame buddy for this I think or maybe we should blame the next drum company in 1967 This was a tumultuous year for buddy as far as drums and snare drums in 1967 he has no deal tricks on Vox out of Germany Picks up on it and offers buddy a deal to play tricks on for God's sakes Buddy flies to Germany. This is all documented does the deal Well, this this this was not such a good thing. I don't know why they did it Maybe it was to get buddy into the fold tricks on actually put up a monetary stipend To that point no drum company was paying any endorser to play their products It would just be free gear and Things like that exactly and and support while you're out on the road You should need a symbol you needed hardware. They were there for you. No money That all changed in 1967 Buddy hooks on with tricks on he's happy as a clam Or is he here we go again? Yeah Didn't last very long it lasted a mere six months Now a little sidebar There are recordings where you can hear his tricks on Vox kit I thought the draw and actually there's live recordings too There was a TV show he did in the summer of 67 It was a replacement show for Jackie Gleason. So Jackie you go on vacation Everybody knows it today. It was called away. We go If you ever pull up any of those videos on YouTube and there are many actually I recommend you do because it's great to see his big band Featured like this The drums you are looking at are not Rogers. They're tricks on Vox Yeah, and they sound Amazingly good, but there's reasons for that too. And like I said we could sidebar for Hours yeah, yeah, but that's like a bizarre I think when everyone kind of first hears about it that you know I mean tricks on is such a cool company which hopefully in the near future. There'll be an episode on them But they it's just you kind of wait buddy played that that that happens with buddy sometimes where it's like There's a video of buddy playing feisty or there's video of buddy playing a DW set You're right There's these moments of like wow he played that but tricks on I mean that's a big part of his is his history So he so six months though. He just he just wasn't they like you said they sounded great But he just wasn't feeling it. I mean that's that's also interesting about they paid him I don't think they expected him to be playing him for six months and then stop Sure, they did not who knows how he got out of that contract Yeah, but yes, they paid him by the way from a distance When I was younger and I saw buddy on tricks on on like an old film Which I had seen and then they came out on video video remember that You would think he was playing Rogers because the lugs from a distance Kind of look like Rogers beaver tails So a lot of people didn't know he was playing tricks on Vox until he finally got that front head on And it didn't say tricks on by the way because in the US tricks on was marketed under the name of Vox yes, so this all came to a head in 1967 at the Newport Jazz Festival if I'm not mistaken But his band was featured There was the tricks on set and as plain as day Vox on that front head Hmm about the best publicity you could ever ask for as a drum company to have buddy playing your drums You know without a doubt and and boy, did you just say that right? You are correct He sold drums like nobody's business. I think the only one that ever bested him on selling drums Sets would be Rango star sure absolutely, right? Otherwise, buddy is right up top Okay, so the reason he He dumped the tricks on from my research The drums just weren't holding up for him. I I'm not knocking tricks on I do have the tricks on snare drum in that collection So I saw firsthand how they were built and I I can see why he didn't stay with them There's just no way those were gonna hold up without some serious serious modification Yeah, and with it's not, you know, Joe Schmoe drummer playing at home This is they're getting absolutely beaten to death by by buddy on a nightly basis Yeah, true and you know, he wasn't a basher by it by any means but he was a strong player So yeah, this stuff really had to Hold up to that night after night after night of interest side note With the tricks on company, there were two snare drums that he played the standard one was the 1440 Luxus that was their wood model in white green pearl He played that one the most but he really liked a snare drum that they developed for him and tricks on called it the buddy rich metal concert amazingly It was not brass. It was a steel shell You know steel shell snare drums get a bad rap they shouldn't You know brass isn't to be all end all Yeah Steel snare drums can sound incredible set up correctly and you know, you got everybody knows the rest of that blah blah blah Yeah And I do want to note too that with with the tricks on if you look at the pictures of it you think of tricks on or Vox and you think of the kind of Conical drums or you think of like the the sort of the teardrop kind of like the melting Drums were normal Just round drums that looked like his you know one up two down Set up that it for his yeah, his drum set and that is correct Tricks on Vox you were you were talking about the tell stars. Yes, exactly buddy. No way was he gonna play those Save like can you imagine I don't Tricks on had their Luxus line that and that was their standard Shaped drum and you're actually right by the way in the tricks on catalog for 1967 There is the buddy rich setup Featured exactly what you said one up two down the two crash stands, you know shell mounted ride and up to that point They didn't have a set like that. So I mean that was really really cool Anyway, we're still in 1967 six months later tricks on is out for whatever reason through his connection and mutual respect with Bob Grosso Buddy never officially endorsed fives There was no money. There was no deal From what I've been able to research over the years and I don't know this for a fact It's just what I think from what I've researched. I believe Bob Grosso gave Buddy that full set of fives chrome over fiberglass. I Could find nothing anywhere about any money ever changing hands. Yeah, that's good to know though I mean, it's I think if buddy likes your drums and seems like he had a good relationship with the fives guys It's just that's a part of him is that fives snare drum and that relationship and and you were absolutely right Hopefully people have been listening to my drivel Back in 65 is where buddies a buddy hooked on with Bob Grosso with that first fiberglass snare drum so two years later He's playing a full set of fives and that just took everybody Completely by surprise. We already knew he loved the snare drum But he must have if he was gonna, you know play one while he was endorsing Rogers, but he dragged out the fives. He did an album with those two. You can find those on recordings I have this all written down in my Documentation I should have brought that to this interview, but like I said, there's just so much we could talk about What I'm saying is you can actually hear those fives on recordings. I have them all Separated where he used those drums, you know, anyway that being said the interesting things when he when he played fives The actual name of the drum company was never shown on that front head ever ever kind of a missed opportunity There on on fire. I wonder and and honestly too it is bizarre I think a little bit because I'm so used to seeing buddy playing white marine pearl to see him playing those chrome fives It's a little it's a little, you know different to see that, you know, yes It absolutely is and you know in 67 when he was playing fives. I was only 12. I Didn't have a clue. We was playing fives. I had no idea I wonder what people thought back then all the drummers because you're absolutely right. Here's this entire chrome Set of drums. Yeah, which is crazy a couple things I can add about that He got that set from Bob Grosso. There's no doubt about that. I Read an interview with buddy. I have this I have so much material And as as my wife calls it Tommy land Tommy shrine to buddy rich as what she says. Yeah, yeah, she stays with me. I don't know why Anyway, he talked about the fives set and I've written this before In articles and and other things he did not Like the actual drums his quote and and I have this I gotta find this because people have asked me about this before He said he thought the bass drum and the toms Sounded thin and lifeless. Hmm was not a yeah, right on the but Absolutely positively loved that snare drum Hmm, which is gonna come into big play with his next endorsement So here we go again 67 say about late June July Giver take he was with the fives and he stayed with them right up until December of 67 So just about a six month period That's when Who's the president then it was? Don Osborne senior was the president of Slingerland Slingerland came calling because they must have recognized buddy did not have an endorsement deal and They hooked up and of course, I think this is the period that everybody seems to really really remember Buddy rich. Yeah, Slingerland. Yeah. Yeah, he was with them from 68 to 78 a solid 10-year period with Slingerland and if you think about that in my opinion only my opinion That period though. That was the height of his powers As a player if you if you watch him listen to him from 67 through 68 70 into the early 70s Nobody could touch him. Nobody Just Godly. Yeah, and I think you got to remember too that buddy was born in 1917 so in 1968 if I quickly kind of did the phone math correct here. I mean he's 51 ish years old He's not this like spring chicken who's You know super young but that being said he's buddy. He's kind of super super human But I mean we're talking about his one of his many primes He's 50, you know, yeah shredding So that's just you got to have that in the back of your mind that when you're watching these buddy videos and you know late 60s early 70s the guy is you know For when most people in their lives are kind of like been working and they're slowing down a little bit But he's pushing harder than ever Without a doubt I guess the cool thing snare drum wise is This was pretty active for him with Slingerland and I they were up to the The challenge yeah, he started with the artist model with Slingerland and Within that first year they renamed it to the to be the buddy rich artist, of course And that was either an eight or ten log he played primarily the eight lug Your standard five and a half by 14 with the zoom attic throw nothing super fancy and God he made that that drum just jump. Yeah, I mean he truly truly did That was 1968 when he started and I've got some actually excellent photographs in my collection a couple never before seen I Really should let some of this stuff out for other people to see but I mean It's in Tommy land It's hard to get into Tommy land, it's hard to get out of Tommy let That being said two years later this drum while he was with Slingerland Took the drum community by storm Everybody wanted this drum Bart I know you're gonna know exactly what it is He wanted something different Word is that buddy had some input on the design of this particular model This actually came out in 1969 but it wasn't cataloged until 1970 for the public. He was playing it a year prior Anyway, it's the Slingerland four by 14 Yeah, buddy rich and you know the strum because it has the 16 lugs opposed that go up and down Eight top a bottom and they're side-by-side Everybody knows this drum Slingerland actually offered that drum in in two different ways in your choice of pearl in buddy's case it was white marine pearl and Chrome over wood The COW amazingly is the one. It's not amazing actually. There's a reason is the one that buddy preferred I figured that out on my own because I had both those drums and by the way in the collection Both those model snares in my collection are 69s. Oh nice. So you got the real Your you're correct. Yeah. Yes very very difficult to find and it even gets crazier the serial numbers Which a lot of people in historians say Doesn't mean all that much. They were just pulling badges out of a bin and putting them on a drum But that being said Without having going looking the badges. I used to know this. I think those numbers are only 600 apart Wow on both those drums. Wow. Anyway, you know what I did Bart? I set them up Side-by-side with the exact same heads exact same tuning and by the way These really need to have the single flange stick choppers Which is how buddy had them on his drums. He loves stick choppers I have those on these snares and I compared them in a B There is a difference that white marine pearl wrap being just thicker plastic Actually locks that drum up just to taste the chrome over wood Super crystalline bright And anyway, that's the one he played more than the white marine pearl. Hmm. That's fascinating I just want to ask with the Slingerland stuff. What what are your thoughts? You know, I'm sure this is another whole conversation though but like You know, obviously Slingerland was you know, they Gene Krupa and Slingerland were just like, you know Since the beginning they were together and he was kind of their catalog cover guy Until I guess the late 60s what? What were buddies thoughts about that about coming in on Gene Krupa's kind of like, you know Hallowed ground and being the new obviously he's he's a huge famous guy and Gene is such a gentleman that I'm sure was fine But yeah, what's the story with that? Wow? I'm just smiling here, which you can't see because that that is an excellent question To buddy's credit depending on how you want to look at it That's why he wouldn't go with Slingerland There are two reasons for that buddy love Gene everybody knows it. He respected Gene everybody knows it But there was also Buddy being buddy He wanted to be the top guy the guy Yeah, and that's exactly what happened in the late 60s Gene passed away if memory serves in 1973. I believe so he was still with Slingerland But he was on his way down. He was older. He had health issues Buddy was the guy and Slingerland obviously Built that up pretty largely and and made him the top cat Although in some of those earlier catalogs 68 69 Gene was still in there if I if I'm not mistaken But that's why and that's such a good question I think maybe that's why he did not go with Slingerland before he did. Yeah for such a long time I mean, yeah, that's because I guess he was just I guess out of You know, you want to think it was out of respect, but it was also probably out of like well I'm not gonna be the number one, you know, the big dog there. So I'm You know, I need to be I need to be on top and it's so sad that Gene died when he was 64 You know, you look at that Because we're talking buddy again is in his prime in his 50s and 60s. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, very sad Extremely so and like I said, I hope people don't think bad badly of me for saying this, but I agree with you 50% of it if not more is buddy wanted to be top guy. Yeah, you know, he had the ego and let's face it You have to have ego you you have to sure you can't be a shrinking violet and be at the top of your game It just doesn't work. No Yeah, you know. Yeah. Anyway, that being said That's around 1970. He played that snare drum For almost a solid three years. This is the four by 14 That indicates that he was pretty happy with it. Yes. Yeah 1973 Maybe late 72 hard to really really dial in The rich in London album comes out from Ronnie Scott's only buddy only Buddy could pull this off and get away with it. Everybody knows the story on the album cover in full color Side shot of buddy from the left side high hat rack tom snare drum. Is it a slingerland? It is not It's a fives Yeah, I'm not like breaking any new ground here. No, everybody knows that But back then I'm sure that took the drum world by a surprise. I'll tell you who it did take my surprise John Osborne senior Yeah, he was oh, I mean that has to be like a it's a It's like I mean, it's probably a little over dramatic But it's like if your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever is kind of cheating on you and a picture of them together gets like Posted on social media Fine analogy It's exactly what it is and Don Osborne. I'm sure felt that way and by the way to back up a little bit Buddies endorsement was compensated with slingerland. They were paying it. Yeah tricks on Open that door. Yeah, so not only are they giving him equipment. They're paying him and he trots out that five snare drum Many stories abound on this as a matter of fact Mel Torme Covered this very very well in the traps the drum wonder which is actually an excellent read I would imagine everybody either owns that book by now or at least has read it And if they haven't they should But the thumbnail sketch is Don Osborne got really really upset but Not so upset that he wanted to part ways with buddy. Yeah, he said look We'll make you a snare drum that will make you happy. I'm telling you will build you one Again, I'm just paraphrasing. Sure, of course so 1974 but he's still with slingerland Outcomes the brand new slingerland five by fourteen BRTDR Which stands for total dynamic response says slingerland So here we go. Did buddy like that snare drum? Absolutely loved it. It shows up on Many videos around this period 1973 1974 still photos There's the slingerland five by 14 BRTDR Still with stick chopper hoops. That's how buddy played it They sold more of them with the stick savers. I personally Love the stick choppers myself except you better have a drumstick endorsement That's all I can tell you yeah, because Bart have you ever played stick choppers? No, I have I know I don't think I have actually Well, I'll tell you what look under your snare drum after like maybe 45 minutes of playing it sawed us Sure, wow, it's just shred but they sound like nothing else, but he knew it. Yeah. Yeah anyway Yeah, that didn't last very long Huh late 74 maybe mid 74 Back to the fives Geez man. He just the connection he had with that drum and you do kind of feel bad for You know slingerland in that in that Scenario, but but I guess buddy he he had the power in in those relationships where you know He did get away with it. I guess they're like well We want him to endorse us. So, you know, we wanted to say slingerland on the bass drum But we want him to be happy or at least, you know I don't know if they care it if he was happy. It's just play the damn play the damn drums, but wow. What a story Yeah, I certainly want to don't want to take up too much time, but I have a little sidebar here that actually factors in nicely to this In 1973 that was my senior of high school. Yes. I'm that old Buddy rich in the band came into Springfield, Massachusetts to play the paramount and My buddy and I he was also a drummer We got tickets and we went to see that was that was I think my my third time seeing buddy. I was only 17 Anyway, there are the slingerlands set up on the stage the bands are not on yet Anyway, the band comes out buddy comes out they play and I'm only 17 This is God's honest truth on a stack of Bibles That snare drum I could not believe we had good seats, but he didn't mic up like drummers mic today It was like maybe an overhead and a bass drum mic. That's it Yet you could you you could hear the projection of that snare drum in that entire theater Well, this snare drum just it just knocked me out. I just couldn't believe it every stroke But he played two sets like he always did finish the first set few words bang They're gone, you know behind the curtain. I'm sitting there with my buddy And you know when you're 17 forgive me, but you got the you know Can I say this the balls made out of titanium sure you just do I said, I'm gonna go and look at his drums I I need to see I Need to see what that snare drum is and I did exactly that I walked up to that stage part There's no security. Yeah, there's no you know event security. I hopped up on the stage and Went right behind his drums. You couldn't do that today. No, no you'd be in a headlock You know on the ground And there it was It was a chrome snare drum. I had never seen one of these in my life and there's the batch five boy Absolutely true story. I didn't know it then what I was seeing, but I knew it wasn't a slingerland snare drum By the way, I won't get into this now, but that is the same night that I met buddy Really really quickly. Yeah. Yeah, please as long as I'm on the stage. I said to myself I'm just gonna go backstage. I'm gonna go meet him. He's my idol. No, I swear to wow I'm just gonna help myself to buddy's food. I'm gonna You did have you did have some You're 17 you're invincible. You don't care. I was so into drums so into buddy He was my man my hero since 1967 buddy was the guy I set up my drums like him We all did this Anyway, I did meet him that night. That's a whole nother story. I will just say it didn't start so well But he softened he took pity on me and it actually ended up being really really nice It did not start well though and that was all on me. It's because what I did I'm just gonna let that hang there. Yeah, maybe maybe that'll be our bonus episode that we talk But anyway, wow, that's yeah, you're a buddy. You're a buddy fanatic since day one, you know Day I was 12. I have to tell you this here's what started it 12 years old I was taking drums for my second year. I was in Sixth grade. I think seventh grade my father. I loved my dad brought home Buddy rich swinging new big band live at the shea Full color buddy sitting behind his white Marine Pearl Rogers and band was on fire Those were all the right players. Let's put it that way. Anyway, that's what started this whole thing So just to let you know from 1967 He was my guy. Wow, which 67 was obviously the very interesting year of of tricks on and that's that's That's a that's a that's a unique buddy year right there. It is indeed. Of course, you know back then I didn't know Yeah, yeah This episode is brought to you by dream symbols and their awesome new symbol bag It is a heavy-duty strong durable symbol bag made for professionals with a nice tread on the bottom And it's reinforced everywhere that it needs to be You have three compartments on it two in the main pocket area and then one Separate compartment on the outside of the bag It has padded shoulder straps and a nice handle or you can wear it with a single strap kind of across your body It fits sizes up to a 24 inch ride, which is really huge And then you can just walk around having the confidence that your symbols are safe in this awesome bag from dream symbols Check it out at dream symbols comm or on social media at dream symbols So we're at 68 to 78 buddies with Slingerland right which that that was an iconic phase too I do think of also there's some some cool videos on Johnny Carson with him And I remember he took the Slingerland sticker And kind of put it on his forehead and was like I play Slingerland drums and that was Bart Do you remember? Oh God I have Every one of those performances on DVD. I mean I everyone I am nuts. That was the night that Johnny Replaced the first 16 by 16 floor tom head with parchment paper. Yes, that was that one Yeah, yeah exacterical and then you think like a boy, you know, not too many people could get away with that Johnny could yes Kathy rich Hasn't said it many many times buddy love Johnny. Yep, and and vice versa Of course, but no, you're absolutely right Anyway, he ended Slingerland. This is the last thing I'll say about it Playing the five snare drum. I can't lie to you and by then that Relationship had completely eroded Donna's born had had enough buddy had had it off Bye-bye Yeah, so yeah, buddy splits goes back to Ludwig in 1978 and what's interesting about that This was his third time with Ludwig Yep, this would be his third endorsement back and forth. That's What's that call gotta be like, you know, like hey, this is or his management or whatever like, you know, we're shopping Him shopping around for endorsements and then it's like, well, I'm back. It's just I'm back You know, if I'm if I'm not mistaken You're half right on that. I think they came to him. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, you know, uh now The old man Ludwig senior had since passed and uh, bill Ludwig junior was in control of the company And he saw an opportunity a buddy rich was still huge. Well, he was huge till the day he died Huge in the drum world. So, um Despite his inner voices telling him, maybe I shouldn't do this He invited buddy back into the fold Uh, it uh, it was not smooth sailing. Let's just say that Yeah, it was rough by then, but he was uh Getting getting money and he was incredibly incredibly demanding with what he wanted And I'll I'll step a little outside The box and say that um, I don't know that buddy had a whole lot of respect For bill Ludwig junior And he used to put him through the ringer But he did Uh, maybe just because he could I don't know. Yeah Ludwig ended up making So many full drum sets for buddy during this period Because buddy was giving them away like you would give someone a stick of gum Wow. Well, I think of him giving buddy giving, uh, johnny the Ludwig drum set, um for his house if i'm not mistaken I know there's some like an interview or something about that with johnny karson getting a drum set Yes, um But god, so he was just giving these. I mean that has to be Tough for Ludwig to be like You need another one you know, um Bill Ludwig jr. Wrote a book, uh, I have it I think many drummers that are into the history of all these great american drum companies would have that, um The history of the Ludwig drum company. He discusses that And uh, again, I'm paraphrasing. I don't have the book in front of me But it got to the point where Ludwig drum company Had ready to go brand new in the cases Two drum sets at any given time because they knew buddy was going to call and say I need a set Geez, I need a set Um, yeah, it got old quick. Yeah Well, anyway while he was with them from 78 to 79 He played the supraphonic 400 he started with that But quickly abandoned it and went to the super sensitive. Mm-hmm, which makes sense Uh, the one he started with was the uh, Cromover brass 5 by 14 and 79 but in and around 81 or so I I can't be exactly quoted. It may be a little sooner on that But he switched To the Ludwig 5 by 14 hammered bronze Super sensitive And that was a snare drum. He stayed with until he left Ludwig Well, yeah, there were reasons for that. Um, again, I have all these drums in the collection The hammered bronze was a very hard one to find because Fitting within my parameters of I wanted to get the drum Built at the same time, buddy played it. This one was one of the hardest to find. I can't lie to you Um, I did find it Um I know what he liked about it now Yeah, I can honestly yeah Bronze is like the best Of maybe two worlds possibly three Uh The hammer takes a little bit of that high end off the bronze and it softens the note So it sounds almost like a wood drum But because it's bronze it has the cut and the clarity of brass Except that it's bronze. It's a little softer Simply put rim shots Uh dead center brushes They speak like nothing else on a hammered bronze snare drum. That was an absolute beauty That's interesting and that's it for buddy's type of playing with those. I mean he is a snare drum Guy you said it earlier on where it's like, you know, the snare drum is his voice That's totally right. That kind of sums up why Just this episode in general why it's such a big deal to have buddy playing your snare drum Because it's that's his most important, you know, tom's or one thing which we all know buddy sounds great on every drum He touches but um, he needs something that's that Articulate exactly right and and look at all of his solos all of them Unless he's playing, you know a cymbal solo, but eventually he makes his way to the snare drum and it all emanates From there. Yeah. Yeah, that drum was so so important and going back to how we even started talking about this in the beginning There you have it. I mean from 1950 till he left Ludwig in 82 15 Different snare drums. Oh and I want to add people have called me out on this over the years And I have an answer for it. No I saw a buddy playing a power tone. I saw him one night. Um Playing a Ludwig pioneer. Um, I just pulled that one out of my my butt, but Yeah, the point is I don't know whether he really did sure the oh, I I saw him playing a, um A gene krupa chrome over brass You probably did my collection Specifically the drums he played nightly Night after night week after week after week after week Not a single drum here a single drum there remember at the beginning you mentioned peisty Well, I think I think we talked about that. Yeah, we did. Yeah, uh, he he never endorsed peisty, but yes, he played a peisty ride Uh on a few different gigs. It's like that but that doesn't mean that that was What he was after and what what he really wanted to play that just wasn't his ideal But he's a drummer and if someone's giving you, you know, hey, I have this snare like so so What you're basically saying is yes, these 15 drums were his kind of like These were ones he's using over and over and here and there there might be some some some other drums thrown in for him Uh, yes, the experience so if people saw him playing a Whatever then that's because he was using it for that one particular night, but these are his You know You know, you know, it's you know, it's a good word. I for me. Anyway, these are his stall wart snare drums Yeah, the nightly drums that he uh, he depended on Yeah, you know, if you tie all this up, um In a nice little package This is what I've always gotten out of it from doing all this research over the years for me The five snare drum was v and capitals th e v one. Yeah people They have different opinions and and and I respect that But he went back to that drum too many times Too many And it's also been asked of me then Why did we never see the five snare drum again? After he left slingerland and that's true. You never did not once After 78 you didn't see it again. You never saw it again. That's it never saw it again Live with with buddy playing Uh, my thought on that is look at the snare drums. He gravitated towards From 78 to 82 with Ludwig. They were all metal shells. Yeah No wood none zero No wood all metal. So we have to assume The chrome over brass and the hammered bronze especially super sensitive was doing it for him. Yeah. Yeah, which You know lucky for Ludwig because it's kind of like oh, okay. Good. He likes our drum. He's not gonna go like cheating on us with another another brand but I I want to ask then like Am I mistaken or did he only actually endorse? fives for Half of for six months in 1967 like is that what you said? Uh, he never officially endorsed sure but he played fives. He played them. There was no ads That's right fives never put him in the catalogue Nothing Nothing. Um, that's always bothered me. But the people that could answer the why to that are gone Yeah, you know missed opportunity if but there had to be a reason I mean, but you know, you think we slap and buddy on the cover of your Catalogs and stuff. Well, you would if that were the case if you were an endorse dorsen Yeah, what I honestly believe is after he left uh tricks on vox Nobody was coming forth forth with an endorsement. He had to play something He had those fives so he brought him out Yeah, that's what we again, you know We already know he loved the five snare drums But he played the rest of the set for six months until slinglin came along and you know Oh, that was that. Hey, you know one thing I forgot to add This is kind of interesting on the Ludwig final endorsement. He hooked up with them in 78 He stayed with them for a mere two years How can that be? because He played Ludwig until 82. Yes, but without an endorsement deal Had a big falling out with bill Ludwig, uh, jr And they parted ways in 1980 Again, buddy's got to play something. What's he gonna play? He kept playing the Ludwigs, uh, all of 81 All of 82 up until 83 when he got the Restored set of 1940s radio kings by Joe McSweeney of the Ames drum company that gave those to buddy So that's interesting and one other thing I noticed If you find photographs between say 81 and 82 with buddy's big band not all the time, but there's a lot There's no Ludwig logo on that front head interesting so that was a little bit of a Uh, you know, I'm not endorsing you. I like your drums, but it was like I'm not gonna Represent you. No advertising However, that doesn't stay a hundred percent true. There are other photographs during that period where there is A logo. So who knows? Yeah, you busted a front head. Whatever. But but the br shield Obviously is on every last one of these sets that we just discussed and of course, you know, all the different snare drums So yeah, yeah. All right. So as as we're kind of getting close to the end here I just a couple questions. So two questions come to mind first Am I mistaken here? I mean, I know we're kind of in a a bit of you know, his we're talking about the I don't say the middle of his career, uh Middle to sort close to the end was slingerland One of if not his longest running endorsements with that tenure Period there 68 to 78 or did he have a longer stretch early on with? With with Ludwig or you know, yeah That is a great question. It truly truly is and uh, I actually looked at that Many many years ago. There's two ways to answer it If if you want to call it staying with one company from start to finish That was the longest However, he was with Ludwig I think the same if not longer but over the period of three different endorsements Gotcha However, if you want to go one more, this is this is so fun to do this He was with slingerland from 1932 to 1945 Okay So if you add that endorsement to his 10 year endorsement from 68 to 78 slingerland blows them all out of the water Yeah, 20 plus years there. There you go. Okay. So it just depends how you want to look at it. Yeah. Yeah, man. He I don't know man. He he the the the jumping around is um It's so interesting, but but like on a nightly basis He'd be up on the stage playing the drums and to to most people that's all that matters, but um, I mean he's He's an in-demand guy to be endorsing drums. That's very clear With all this without a doubt. Hey, you know, this has what it has everything to do with buddy. I play Professionally, it's how I made my living And and I still do although at this stage of the game with the covet and everything else The gigs aren't as plentiful as they used to be although. I'm still working that being said I have two buddy rich model Drum sets and and these aren't hanger queens Meaning I do play these. Yeah, and and I love them both One is a set of 1965 rogers buddy rich celebrities And that's the sweet spot when he was with rogers 1965. These are gorgeous. I gig these for probably 12 14 years solid I also have Boy for me. These are the ones I have a set of um late 1967 early 68 fives Buddy rich chrome over fiberglass The full set wow Bart there are only two Of these that I have ever seen in my entire life. One was buddies I have the other one So how was it? All right, explain that a little bit though. So if he didn't fully endorse it How is it a buddy rich? Was it the same sizes and yeah and all that? Okay Here's what happened a guy out on long island Which is where fives was based until they sold to cf martin in 1970 which is a whole other story um Was a big buddy rich fan. He ordered these specifically in those sizes 14 24 9 13 16 16 16 16 And the 5 by 14 10 lug 5 snare drum and bob grasso built these by hand For this gentleman How I got them is just crazy How it all happened and I won't bore you with it now, but I am thrilled to have them I've had them now for I think five years. Wow I restored them It took me three months Had to replace a lot of fasteners that had rusted fiberglass. I don't know if anybody knows this It continues to gas out almost for life And it's very corrosive. Hmm. So all the fasteners inside had rusted, but anyway, make a long story short So I've been playing the fives buddy riches for oh the past I think four years solid. That's awesome. And yeah, you're a fan. You think they sound great? Oh boy, Steve this could go on and on and on Buddy buddy was right about a lot of things. He was very opinionated. We all know this He was also wrong about a lot of things Um, yeah, he was wrong about that Of course back when he was playing them in 67 head choice is not what we have today True Today just by changing heads plies makeup muffling You can make any drums sound almost like anything you want it to sound like. Yeah, very true Still fives today thin and lifeless. I think not. Yeah Yeah, and he clearly didn't give enough. I mean he that was a pretty short period there So maybe he didn't have enough and he was he's boom. He's he's on to the next one Yeah, right on to the next. I didn't really care. Yeah Hey, by the way, if anybody wants to see and hear him play those fives He did a series of uh, Mike Douglas TV shows in 67 They're easy to find on youtube. Yep. Those are the fives plain as day and I'll tell you right now They sound great They sound freaking great. So I don't know what he was talking about but yeah, anyway Yeah, that's that's that's good to know and and I'm sure I've uh, I'll post those On social media so people can see that that video and I'm sure I probably have in the past But I'll do it again and all right. So you you obviously kind of created Sort of as close to period correct drums as you could with these 15 snare drums I'm talking the real deal buddy rich the ones he played Where are some of them? Are they are they still out there? Of course One of those drums could be you know worth a lot of money, but where where are those floating around? They are out there uh furthermore Three of those were offered to me. These are actual owned played by buddy rich Uh when I was putting this collection together and by the way it took me Just about 20 years to assemble these snare drums Uh, I think that's important to say this didn't happen overnight. No Um, but anyway, they're out there and now I think every last one of those are in private collections Now why don't I have any of them? To be totally honest with you price, of course Um, one of the most coveted snare drums for buddy would have to be the rogers white maroon pearl dynasonic And if you happen to get a 65 or a 66 That's the one you want and one of those came down the pike. This was owned by buddy Positively absolutely proven provenance everything. This was one of buddy snare by the way He didn't have one snare drum from any company. He had numerous Snare drums, but they were all the same model Anyway, there's just no way I almost did it too the asking price part at the time 20 grand Yeah, I heard you laugh. Wow I gotta I gotta tell you this I said to my wife. I said hunt. I have a chance to buy one of buddy's actual drums It would be great for the question, but I uh, I don't know. I she says, what are they asking? I said, uh 20 grand She goes, you know what? Buy it. Oh, wow. This is why we've been married for 34 years She's just a sweetheart, but no, um sanity Got the better of me. Yeah, that's I mean 20 Thousand dollars that's that's I think you'd walk every time you walk by it You kind of catch, you know out of the side of your eyes thing. This is awesome. You're thinking 20 thousand dollars That's like awesome. You're out of your mind Yeah, because you know what Bart would I gig that drum? Probably not it was buddies Yeah, and after you've bought it and you have it and it was his now. What do you do? Yeah So anyway, I didn't but uh, that was one of three. I was offered one of his fives snares And this one I came the closest on This gentleman had a 1974 he was on buddy's band Sluggerland 5 by 14 BR TDR We just couldn't agree on a price I knew what it was worth to me And I offered that And he thought he could do better and he did do better. Yeah, and by the way, I did not low ball him I am not one of those guys. I am not a bottom feeder, but it's just like what you said Bart You want to spend how much money and and and then what happens after the fact? What do you what do you have? Yeah, anyway, so there's your answer. They're out there and I I know One two three. I know three guys collectors that have these drums. Yeah, I mean you you certain people have have A lot of money from their professional life and Can just have these things and collect them and I think that's awesome and more power to them And uh, but I think you've done There's no I mean the the cost which we I don't even think is is could be added up of if you added up all of the snare drums that you have If they were the actual played buddy rich snare drum would be astronomical and in literally impossible unless you're you know a Very very wealthy person. So no, exactly right. Hey, you know in addendum Um When that drum came along this is important. This is way back when I want to say probably close to 15 years ago When just a regular white marine pearl rogers dynasonic was going for four to five grand Now they're not because You know that whole market is I hesitate to say crash, but it's come down quite a bit So that's why that drum was up today. I don't think you could even ask that for one of buddy's drums and may I add He's been gone unfortunately for 34 years as each year goes by Fewer and fewer people are into him like we all are yeah And and that also hurts value in my opinion Yeah, it's different. I mean that's a great point. I mean it's uh, it's you'd be amazed sometimes and I see this from Being on social media with post and drum videos that people the younger younger younger generation i'm talking 15 year olds You can't really blame them, but it's just different. It's not I mean it's just a different world and um They're into more modern drummers and but they'll they'll they'll come to their senses and hopefully I mean right. We are still carrying the flame for all these greats. Yeah, which were today's players Wouldn't even have what they have if it weren't for these guys But again, that that's a whole other subject. But yeah, you know, it is anyway So, um, this has just been so awesome because it's been a long time a long time in the works and and like I said I mean, I remember I've I've moved twice Since we originally talked actually because we moved for a little bit and then a kid We had to move again because it to a bigger house But I remember sitting in my basement watching your video with jim masina Who's whose youtube handle is gumpf gum? I know that crazy one two three four and i'm watching it and i'm seeing it i'm go Oh, man, I need to talk to you. I need to talk to uh, joe meckler joey boom and a couple other people And finally we've made it happen, but i'm gonna share that in the description this great video of tomi's The video so you can actually see these and in here here, you know some of the same Yes, absolutely. Uh, you know, I just want to add One last thing. I should have said this. This is very very important to whoever might listen to our conversation um everything I gave as far as dates information um, this is what I researched at the time coupled together With some of my opinions Which I formed based on what I researched what i'm simply saying is um There could be dissenting opinions Guys could say oh, no, you're all wrong. He didn't play tricks on 1960. I just want to say This is what I was able to research. Yeah, so uh, yeah, that's just important to me. Yeah, and and I mean I will throw it out there that tomi's the real deal and does not just throw out things that are dates and times that He's not very very sure of so if there of course, there's other opinions But that's just the way the world yeah, and what that also means bar is if someone comes up with a piece of info That I haven't been able to uncover Great added into the dialogue. I'm just saying this isn't the final word This is just what I was able to research at at the time. Yeah, it's a it's a normal That's just how it works with this stuff. Um, so now what I think we'll do is tomi and I can pop over We'll wrap up this episode and maybe do a couple minutes. We got to hear the story about meeting buddy and Yeah, it's okay and if if people want to hear that bonus episode and the other ones go to drum mystery podcast calm and There's a little link for patreon and it's just a lot of fun to hear these these extra little conversations But for now on this episode Tommy is there anywhere, you know, I mean you you play around and do all this stuff but is there any links or Anything you want to where people can find you or you want to share some articles anything like that here at the end Boy, thank you so much for asking that actually There is and there there can be Real quickly. I've been working with a frank sinatra show This is my 14th year with them. This is a great. Yeah a great group. We just did a tv show This is crazy last thursday That's being mixed and edited once that's done I believe that is going to be available for anybody on youtube And I would certainly supply that link to you because you know, yes, please then you can you can see my my hideous mug You can see one of my five sets although i'm using my smaller fives because this was in a tv studio And and you can see what it is that I do I will say this I've been playing the buddy rich setup Since I was a kid and I only altered it for a period of about six years in the 70s But yeah, so everybody might get a kick out of that and everything I play for drums of vintage blah blah blah So I would supply you with that. I would let you know. Yeah, that's awesome I'll share that and everyone because it's just fun to see Uh, what people are actually doing, you know, like out in the real world not just talking about Drums but but playing them So Cool. All right. Well, tommy, um, so happy to have you on here and we will wrap up now and then do a little bonus episode And uh, thanks again for everyone, um for listening and and if you check out the bonus great, but uh, yeah, tommy Thank you for being here. Uh bark. Thank you very much. This was a pleasure. I just hope I didn't sound like an idiot No, and I love I I do know that you also and I'll say this now Uh publicly you have a lot of knowledge. So I'd love to have you back on in the future um For some other topics. So maybe oh great 2025 we'll get around to uh Yeah, if I'm not in the ground We'll have you back on because it'll take another couple years to schedule. But uh, no, I'm kidding. So I know we'll have tommy back on But um for now. Thank you tommy very good. Thank you bark If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning