 Okay, so today is March 15th. It's 535. And this is the Public Safety Committee meeting that's being done exclusively remotely, virtually on the. We do have an agenda that includes two minute two meeting minutes, one of which one person I think three of us were at one of the meetings and one of them, two of us were at the meeting. So I'm not really sure where we'll go with that Jared, but in the meantime, let's I mean, I'm happy to make a motion to adopt the agenda on and just need a second second. All those in favor of the agenda is presented. Please say aye. Aye. Opposed. We have an agenda on not really, as I said, not really sure what to do about the meeting minutes. Maybe we'll wait for Jane. And then we hopefully can vote on those. Thank you so much for doing them and getting them done so quickly. We do have we do have a public forum. Not sure if there are any attendees. There actually is an attendee I don't know if the attendee would like to speak at public forum or is just here to to attend. If you raise your hand and would like to speak we're more than happy to have you speak or if you want to speak during the you know during the discussion on the CNA report you're you can put your well actually we have a hand up so if you can just enable that microphone on that would be great Jared. Hi Jane. Hi everybody. I just wanted to say I don't want to speak. I'm just interested in the work that the committee's doing. Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks for thanks for being here on such a lovely evening. All right. So without any other members of the public guess we can move on to the we can close the public forum at 537 and then get on to the discussion on just for the benefit of on changes so you're aware of where we are we're we're doing sections four five and six of the CNA report and you probably can access on board docs the most up-to-date version of the matrix. A number of members of the working group have been filling out their responses to the matrix. The chief has also done so and there is a notes and response from the BPOA so the format that we tend to follow is on talking about each recommendation one at a time and then you can see on in cell on rows C and D or column C and D we try to come up with what we feel is a suggested timeline in terms of prioritizing each of these recommendations and then the committee's conclusion you know and if there's consensus grade if there isn't we try to express that in the in those cells so that's sort of been our format. So the first the first item is in section four section four is all about use of force and officer involved shootings and the first the first item is that the BPD should break out a weaponless force into multiple categories and it appeared to me from what the particularly not only from the chief but also from the two members of the police commission that that work is being done would you say that that is inaccurate particularly for the two members of the police commission would you say that that is accurate and as the as commissioners you feel that that is being done and reported on monthly? Yes if you were to look at the use of force report summary that's provided with every monthly meeting you'll see at the end of the other and then very incident it does break down what type of use of force and if it is weaponless maybe not to like this specific degree that the recognition recalls for but if it is like an open hand use force they'll say that and other types of uses of force. Okay so you know I wasn't really sure and maybe others would know when it talks about multiple categories it sounds like they are doing multiple categories the question is when it says based on best practice and peer agency review I wasn't really sure I know for myself I wasn't really sure how to respond to that mostly because I didn't know what peer what is best practice and peer agency review is there anyone that maybe could speak to that? The only comment that I would really make about it just from serving on the commission the when I first started we didn't even see something written we things were described to us so it has been a huge step forward that we now have a document of course identifying information in terms of you know the name of a person is not included but that we do have a written report that can now be viewed by the public and by commissioners as well was definitely a huge step. So it sounds like there's fairly you know fairly universal agreement that this not only is as great as has been a pretty big step forward but also that you know you're particularly the police commissioners are fairly satisfied that this is this is being done and being done well. I don't know if there is more room for improvement chief I don't know if you know as far as best practice would you say in your opinion that what is being done is best practice and if if so can you cite where that best practice might come from just so that we know? I don't know any other agency that does what we do which is every single use of force described and released with demographic information about all participants when I was in the New York City Police Department I created a document that was ultimately codified by city law that did all officer involved shootings so every single incident in which a firearm was discharged by a police officer in an instance other than at the range or into what are called loading unloading stations where you actually have a device where you can load and unload the firearm in a way that if an accidental discharge occurs it doesn't hurt anybody any accidental discharge any discharge against the dog any discharge against a person we covered that we were the only police department in the country that did so at the time but that was only for officer involved shootings and we did not give narratives to every single one we only gave narratives to everyone in which a person was killed the department now does a larger use of force that I did helped create at the very end of my tenure there it too does not release every single incident it aggregates them and gives a data representation of them I know of no other police department that does what we currently do and we intend to do more if and when I can identify a redaction specialist I have sent the job description is posted I've sent it both to UVM and to Champlain College and their film their respective film programs hoping to get someone who knows how to use the various editing suites already not axon we're never going to find somebody who already knows axon unless we find a former you know police officer or somebody who already works at a police department but people who do know how to use the adobe suites necessary to do certain kinds of video editing etc and therefore have the familiarity necessary to do redaction again we don't edit those videos but we do redact them if we can get that then I'm going to release as it says below in one of the other bullets number of different kinds of uses of force as per our agreement with the police commission which include anything that involves oc spray or a conducted electrical weapon or lethal force or significant public attention or serious bodily injury or death and so and then once I understand what workload that is for the redaction specialist it is my intention to explore releasing more kinds of incidents depending again it'll depend primarily on that workload so if there is someone who you know will expand it in a rational logical way based on volume of incidents but I would love it if we could release every single use of force and the body camera associated with it as well and I know of no other agency that does that and I think director derpy is on the attendees and may want to be promoted jared um okay thanks for letting us know sorry just to be clear on the notes um so it sounds like we've made significant movement on this we now have a document with additional information so even though it maybe doesn't have categories per say it says like weaponless force and then describes it and the police commission is satisfied with the current reporting is that accurate summary I think I think so yeah my apologies didn't mean to speak over you go ahead sure I was just going to agree with that summary thank you okay um so we don't need to put a timeline because we don't need a timeline um and uh thanks araya um and I see jane is is here with us as well um so councilor strongberg um thanks hey jane um all right so we'll move on to bpd investigating use of force incidents through thoroughly uh including reviewing on body cam footage to better understand the reason for disparity disparities and black community members um and um I think there was you know universal agreement that this was a priority um from from everyone um uh if I could maybe also say my comment just because I didn't send my thanks to Jared um which was this is being put under training and I think that is diff like the recommendation is around investigation and it was put into training stock and I'm also a little bit confused as to the agreement there both seems to be uh a belief that there is no actions on the part of bpd that's causing disparities but also an agreement that we should understand the reason for the disparities and I guess I think that's maybe the reason this went into the training bucket instead of the investigation bucket so I think I think there's some inconsistencies at least between what the chief wrote and what the recommendation is and how we're talking about this okay um I don't know chief if you do you have any um do you have a uh response to that not certain how this would be in the investigations bucket well it says investigate it says should investigate use of force incidents thoroughly including reviewing footage to better understand um the reason for the disparities now that I'm not really sure is that a training I mean if you're investigating and you're investigating if you are investigating to review to better understand um that could be seen as training or review I think more review than training I wasn't wasn't really sure exactly what that meant um either maybe just a confusion that's all so we don't investigate use of force incidents unless the review indicates that there's been an impropriety and the reason for that is that use of force is a legitimate part of policing and a necessary part of policing and so the idea that you're going to investigate them thoroughly is in my mind a misstatement from cna and actually implies that there are improprieties where we don't know that there are when we see incidents in which use of force was used improperly we do investigate and open internals as necessary but every use of force is not an internal nor a complaint so uh that's why it's it's use of force instructors who are also the use of force reviewers and then training with regard to whether or not uh force is being used in ways that are commensurate with training um and then the need to do certain kinds of reviews with regard to body-borne camera footage for example um again the more of that footage we are able to release then by necessity the more of it is going to be reviewed uh with regard to uh searching for certain kinds of things in it that is a for example uh you know there are a number of companies that claim to be able to identify certain behaviors or uh certain kinds of cues that may or may not indicate bias or may or not it may or may not indicate uh improper action um and I don't know yet whether or not those claims are uh accurate verifiable um but I am willing to have an examination of the availability of that kind of technology and see what it can or can't do uh that would also how after however have to be done in accordance with uh with current directive and contract restrictions so if we get to the point where we are releasing every single uh body-borne video of a use of force uh then by definition all of them are going to be reviewed for the time being they are reviewed when there are indications of something improper in the description or a complaint that comes from it or when there is injury or something that is a flag and that includes some of the things that are listed in the agreement with the police commission about the incidents that we will initially release publicly as a baseline okay Milo thanks thank you um I was wondering chief when you have a moment can you send me a copy of the job description for the redactionist I'd like to send that over to the media factory um to see if if they're I'm almost certain there's there's people over there that are able to do this um because they they train people to edit so I'm wondering if some type of fee for service could be worked out but I think it would be worth having the conversation with that organization um with regards to um what was just being discussed this is a very very difficult very very difficult um sometimes what the department might consider to be an acceptable use of force is looked at differently um especially in terms of training opportunities for what could be done better so we've had a lot of conversations in executive sessions about certain incidents where the department felt it was unacceptable um use of force but uh some members of the commission felt that felt differently so that is one aspect to this uh the other aspect is that um I certainly have been vocal that I feel that the department can do more to be willing to look at why certain disparities are um occurring so for example we've previously discussed the statistics around when um firearms need to be um drawn and it's a huge statistics when black people are involved so I think it's 54 percent please correct me if I'm I'm wrong in that but it's a huge huge statistics and we were initially told that it was related to warrants only to find out that no it's not actually related to warrants so what exactly is it related to are we you know when when questions are asked about are we looking at use of force by officer um in order to determine um if there are particular issues with particular officers and if there are what kind of circumstances uh do we does this officer find themselves in right is this related to scheduling is it related to um you know I've done some ride-alongs and I'm kind of curious as to when uh certain officers with their shift in the areas that they have to cover but there hasn't been the willingness I feel in the department to do the work necessary to to continue to to lower these discrepancies I so I feel that yes we have training it's it's both to me that that that we want to be moving forward with training and tracking who's getting what training and we want to investigate certain continued disparities so that they can be properly addressed um yes I I think that's where I'll leave that thank you okay Soraya yeah um just in response to um the acting chief um the findings specifically for this recommendation is on using several metrics to understand disparities black community members are overrepresented in use of force incidents they also experience higher levels of force as measured by the highest level of force used in an incident so this isn't just yes use of force is legitimate and therefore we don't need to review it this is specifically talking about oh our use of force has disparities in it and so we need to do additional review of trying to understand why the disparities are there so that's not a training problem that's an investigation problem which means that we need to do more to review footage to better understand why these disparities are there and it sounds like that's something that we're not doing so I guess I I disagree with the assessment that we just need training on this um but rather that we take a look at okay and again I don't know if that's random or whatever else but there is a coherent problem with our use of force that we are trying to resolve um I'll leave it there but it just agree with some of Milo's comments on looking at why it is higher levels of force as well as higher representation on use of force you agree or you disagree I agree you agree um so I know for myself what I had said was that I agreed with the comment mostly mostly to the because of the high priority and that we place I think we all place on getting back to a place of trust building and accountability and this is a way to to certainly increase that trust building and accountability um I understand that um you know what the acting chief is saying about you know about the fact that use of force incidences are incidents are thoroughly investigated if there is a if there is to so to speak a reason but I'm wondering if maybe expanding that reason might be the way to approach this um and I'm not sure that every use of force incident needs to be go to the go through the same level of rigor um I I don't I don't know how much is involved with that process to know um but it would seem as though uh a greater sense of rigor needs to be attended to some use of force incidents that is currently not um and I'm not really sure how to how to say that so that we can have some sort of conclusion is there anyone else who has an opinion um perspective on on this I don't know um Shabu you see these use of force incident reports how do you feel about um you know are we doing are we doing enough are we being thorough enough um is there a a way that we can be more thorough without investigating every single use of force incident do we need to do that work um um I would also add too that um I don't know if there would be a hang up contractually with this but this might be something to put into like the contract bucket uh through guards too because I know I know we can't just audit any video we need cause to and I don't know if this would be mean I don't know if this would fall fall under that but either way I would like this kind of flag that's like a possible contractual thing just so we could you know look into other videos if you if want to conduct a more thorough audit uh on on disparities um but with that being said I do know that there was an incident that popped up uh several months ago that wasn't flagged internally as something that uh uh uh as a overuse of force or like an improper use of force but we there was something something stuck out through the commission and we flagged it and we reviewed it and the rest of it went down executive session but um I wish we could be more thorough on this how we do that I'm not sure how but there to what Milo said we don't always see eye to eye on what is uh an appropriate use of force um thank thanks Djibout so Zariah Jeff and Milo I think in that order I think I don't know it did you have your hand up again Zariah oh no I just failed to put it down okay that's okay Jeff I think you are next yeah I I'm kind of in the same camp you are Karen I think um I mean I haven't seen the data that everybody's seen so you know if there are the the glaring disparities obviously we want to know about those um but at the same time I wouldn't want to have everybody micromanaging everything that the police department is doing so because I guess there's a kind of a fine line between those two things so I'm not sure where I'm falling out you know weighing in on this one yet but anyway just thought I'd say it that way thanks okay thanks Milo hi thank you um I would just like to see the department take some extra steps so I think I've mentioned um this before but I had a reporter send me a document um it's two pages and they say here here's use of force by officer what do you think about this and I'm like huh that's pretty interesting where's this from and it was from one of the depositions in the melee case and I was like yeah it makes sense that the lawyers would ask for that I'm like can I see the whole deposition and I've tried to get depositions and it's not an easy thing for an average person to do but because I was denied being looked at that full deposition I was like well I don't want to comment then because I want to see the whole context and when I asked you know the department for the information I can't get that information if I asked the department uh when I asked the department if they were looking at that information right because I'm thinking from an administrative standpoint that um this would be something they want to look at to to catch and act upon didn't get an answer so I do think there are things that can be done without like micromanaging the data is there the city statisticians said the data was there uh the chief would just be have to be willing to have that released and the chief wasn't willing to do that so I think that needs to be revisited um so that we can uh account for these disparities and it needs to be part of an overall strategy to improve um relationship and trust within the community thank you thanks Milo so um so Zariah I think probably what is reasonable to say is that um uh you know keeping in mind um any any rules you know any rules within the BPOA contract that that necessitate use use of force incidents being thoroughly investigated um for cause that um uh that that it's it appears so it's the consensus that uh there should be a broader um a broader definition of what use of force incidences are investigated um and um that we need to work on how that on what the parameters are for that um maybe the maybe the parameter is a report from the chief on a monthly basis to the police commission and a determination by discussion and consensus um with the commission as to what should be investigated um so that we can um better understand uh the reason for these disparities okay I have a little bit more than that in the notes um but all I'm adding that as well and then I guess I took it one step further to also highlight this as a contract issue and say that disparity is gender racial ability should be considered or sorry should be added to the contract as a reason for cause to review videos or I guess I should just say review use of force evidence use of force that uh Jane are you okay with that yes I am okay great um uh so in the the interest of moving forward we've got um these are these we've got a few more that are left on the use of force on use of force similar to the recommendation for traffic stops that bpd should consider I think I've been around a computer too much today um should consider the possibility of disparities are driven by bias um and proactively um address potential bias in officers behavior or departmental practices by implementing training and reviewing bpd practices um there seem to be overall significant agreement for that um uh and I think I'm trying to remember if this was the one that uh Hannah had put all right so um in Hannah's absence one of the things that have been said and maybe uh the chief can respond to is that um what Hannah was saying was that they would like to better understand what current implicit bias training looks like um since they come in many different forms also would like to know who implements these trainings and how um and is there an outside firmer is it internal if you could give us some background on that chief we've had a variety of trainings over the years uh I mean in excess of of I think three dozen uh in the past uh 15 years um some of them have been internal some of them have been uh the majority of them have been externally provided by people who've been brought in uh people who are uh who have experience in the field people who are vetted by sometimes by the state in some instances uh coming up we will be doing training with the uh with uh with racial equity inclusion and belonging they are going to be doing I believe 16 hours of training with uh with BPD officers as well as other city employees and that including together with a review of the fair and impartial policing policy will be the training that we do for calendar year 2022 and calendar year 2021 we did uh I believe 12 hours of iterative training um with a trainer and also review of the fair and impartial policing uh that was uh for both our own need and desire to exceed what's a minimum requirement by the state of Vermont but the state of Vermont's minimum requirement according to rule 13 is that fair and impartial policing be trained on they don't give a number or a time or an amount um we've exceeded that uh certainly in the last three years that I've been acting chief of police um I don't know if anyone has anything else I know for myself what I had said was that um you know I I think there are I mean I think there has been 15 years of training obviously there are different officers who have rotated um you know has been have been part of those 15 years of training it hasn't been the same group on it yes ma'am but for fair and impartial policing and the review of the fair and impartial policing practices and policies has to be done by everyone it is a rule 13 requirement that every single level three certified police officer in the state of Vermont conduct that so most of those trainings have been attended by all officers there's certain exceptional ones that have been uh only attended by a few we did a the city provided a training that had a lot of different city employees at it I want to say it was 2019 um and that was uh I'd have to try to find it um to remember the name of it but there was three people that were brought in and did both uh bias training cultural competence training and certain amounts of anti-racist uh in uh familiarization um that was one example another example is a cohort of I want to say approximately 12 employees that were sent to uh the legacy museum in Montgomery Alabama colloquially known as the lynching museum uh in order to do a facilitated uh two or three day tour there um with and the at the there are two museums there and I I'm afraid I can't remember what each of them is called one is the legacy museum I can't recall the name of the other one uh they are about uh the civil rights history of Montgomery but also the country and also the country's uh poisonous history around lynching and other kinds of racial violence that was something that officers did and then brought back and uh and shared those experiences with officers um with the rest of the employee base so some of them are are some officers others are the entirety of the cohort the state requires that we do certain amounts of training on this and we have routinely exceeded that and then the upcoming REIB training will be all employees I apologize for interrupting that's all right that's all right that's on me um the um uh I mean I you know personally I didn't agree with that trip to um that trip that the officers took I wasn't wasn't really sure I understood that but um I think there has been a lot of training um I think when if if we if we you know as we know and certainly as the cna report points out that there still are disparities so obviously um you know it's a persistent challenge and um still makes me wonder if perhaps there are other approaches that could be taken for the greatest impact and change um Milo go ahead please thank you um I just wanted to mention because we kind of previously discuss aspects of this but just as a reminder going forward um something that we haven't had in the past is like a definitive list of who attended what when and going forward for the upcoming trainings through REIB even though it is every officer you know that that information is is tracked more robustly than it has been in the past um I also had um the document forwarded to me that I can forward to Hannah or everybody else that um indicates what's going to be covered um I think it will definitely be useful I don't think it's enough one of the very unique things about our area Burlington and Winooski um and I can't say it often enough we have a lot of problems related to the rapid diversification of our area so we definitely need to continue to do more and some of the things that we do need to be out in the community community interaction thank you go ahead it's right yeah and I think both on the above item and on this item I think again the focus needs to be as much on practices as it is on training I think in this bullet um so obviously that review needs to happen first or at least in parallel but I think we should also look at what changes and practices we can do as a department do you think you can put that do you think you can put that in a box putting in the box um there's a couple of things that we're going to get to that I think are probably going to be fairly straightforward um the um the the issue of when there are multiple responding officers uh right accounts of the same incident um there should be policy um and training instructions to make sure that those are done independently it sounds to me like those that's already being done is there anyone who doesn't feel that's being done I think that probably is something that um we could probably it sounds like we could probably have um you know support that that is that that's already being that that's that's that is just something that just simply needs to be monitored but that you know and if there are other best practices that they can be incorporated but effectively that is being done um the the next item is regarding use of force narrative in the following ways and it's a pretty long one um the uh I think the bigger the biggest issue the single biggest issue on this one is the um the issue of um of the obtaining a subject account and I don't think that I necessarily took it the same way that maybe some other people do which means probably I didn't understand it um it it sounds to me at least from uh from the BPA's BPOA's response that um that it's not practical to do that um and I'm wondering if there's you know if that tends to be that what most people are feeling that that's just not something that really can be done um or if there is a way to incorporate that is that an attempt should be made or is there no attempt that should be made because there are legal ramifications for that just wondering if anyone has an opinion about that so that we can come up with some sort of a committee or working group conclusion on that I think I wrote down on my notes um basically say I kind of think that uh in terms of the subject account one I mean like at least from my vantage point partaking downtown I've seen plenty of fights happen outside and some of them happen right by the cops and the cops will bring up those fights as as they're going down and so I don't really understand how you do like a subject account like you're stopping someone like in the act of assaulting somebody else why what was their take on the use of force on them because that's kind of how I read the question or sorry read that our recommendation I'm not sure if I'm all side differently but I think at times like that I don't see how that's really necessary anyone have any other I'm sorry go ahead Milo you know I was thinking about those type of incidents you know because in the past I I suddenly go downtown a lot and I've worked downtown I've seen those situations but I've also seen other situations where I felt that a subject account would be helpful at least from a training point and I'm actually curious with regards to the note that included in the report should be any efforts at de-escalation is that already done and if not I think that that would be something that should be done thank you is that is that currently is that being done chief I don't know if you can speak to that yeah the the reports that are these reports were initially read to the police commission in addition to be provided in addition to being written they are now made online and they do include example I'm sorry chief apologize for confusion this is specifically referencing what the officers write in their reports reports that are issued to the public are created by deputy chief lebrecht based on officer reports he cannot invent what the officers did or didn't do at the scene so yes when there are so those reports don't really mention efforts of de-escalation so that's why I was curious if that is a practice on the original reports from which DC lebrecht pulls from they do at times mention efforts of de-escalation uh with regard to these specific things the reason I agree with the bullet is that incorporating some of these uh some of these ideas into for example a checklist for use of force document preparation makes sense okay all right so maybe the maybe the way forward in terms of a conclusion is that you know there's general agreement for all of the for all of the bullet items the impracticality of a subject account makes makes that that a very that's a real variable and that there are in the in the moment or during the incident that that might be very or even immediately after that that might be very difficult to get um and and just not you know not a not a practical thing um I'm sorry sorry it's all right sorry I I just saw that Zariah and um and Jeff have their hands up on you know Zariah if you want to go and then Jeff I think Jeff was first but okay all right you're on Jeff um so I'm sitting here listening and reading and thinking about you know all the things that go on downtown that that we're most concerned about and you know mostly the enforcement equality of life um ordinances and crimes down here um you know if I put myself in an officer's shoes and think about all of the reporting and all of the criteria and and people looking over my shoulder both you know publicly and and and you know just generally the public why why would I want to put myself in a position where I'm you know if I'm talking about alcohol consumption in City Hall Park at 10 30 of the morning and you know the onlookers get right at you know can get right in the way of things and it can get pretty messy quickly for an officer I might not bother you know enforcing something because there's a there's a lot of headaches and and involved here and and so you know if we if we put too many constraints on the officers we they're not inclined to maybe enforce some of the things we'd like them to enforce so I just caution everybody that we've got to you know sometimes let the officers do their job um so that we can create a safe environment for everybody um so those are my thoughts okay thanks Jeff um I agree with disagree with Jeff I don't I feel like I just heard we shouldn't we're maybe discouraging officers from um enforcing situations where it'll escalate to violence which to me doesn't sound like a bad thing um and then I guess my actual comment was um just making sure that I'm capturing the notes and also going back to 4.3.1 which somehow I didn't capture is I think it's fine to not have so I guess what I'm hearing a say is to create a checklist new template with all these bullets as part of the report especially if it's not the exception may be a firsthand account from the person who use of force was used on I do agree with Milo that I think at times that could be really useful or would even be worth going back to especially if it's an isolated incident or something like that to and I think could even help build some kind of community trust if you go both back to any onlookers and to the subject themselves and are like this is why the use of force happened and these are our policies around it like do you have any questions or concerns and I don't think that's appropriate in all of them and I think it would be a lot of hassle but I think that there are cases where that could be helpful so I don't think there needs to be a policy saying that is something we should do but it may be something the department could consider as part of that trust building with the community and then I had a question sorry I know this is longer on the independently which is just like to what extent there is um because I just read the chief's comments and it's just like of course they write it independently I guess I don't know what that means and to what extent like officers may still talk after the incident to be like this is what happened as opposed to like just writing everything down from their own memory because we know memory can be really clouded and so getting it verified by somebody else I just want to make sure that it is an explicit policy that people go off on their own without talking about it first on what they perceived to have happened well that's a good point um does that happen how does that happen how does that work that is not an explicit policy this is a recommendation that is a boilerplate recommendation that was not written with regard to what we're actually doing it implies that officers are cutting and pasting each other's direct statements and basically writing the exact same statement which does happen in some agencies the idea of not being able to talk with other people on the scene is uh unless the officer is in a position of having been for example a victim uh of a use of force or an assault um or uh for uh if that or or for example if there is suspected malfeasance and and a supervisor directs the officers or in the event of uh the use of deadly physical force in which case the use of force policy for the state is very clear about what can and can't be done and when statements have to be made and under what circumstances uh otherwise uh yes officers are going to uh talk sometimes about the the nature of the encounter they operate as team members and they uh will work together as team members but the idea of but they are not writing each other's reports nor can they speak for what the others perceive and they make very distinct differences in that there are no reports in which the officers are writing the same things they're writing from their perception and their perspective so i did not say that they shouldn't be talking during the incident i think that's a very different thing to be speaking during the incident and communicating when of course you're operating as a team then afterwards i think it is better especially you know with body cam footage not always showing everything it is better and i i at least assume that this is what cna meant is to get separate accounts of what folks think happened and again because we know how malleable memories are of incidences even right after the incident happens i think it's better to get independent accounts so i don't think it's a wildly wrong directive to say everybody write what they think happened according to their own memory and then see how different those are as opposed to everybody and i'm not talking about copy pasting but everybody talking and saying this is what happened do we agree that this is what happened and then writing down what happened um before we get to before we get to milo on jared i know you would want to say something and also uh hr director karen durfee has her hand up as well so if you could enable that microphone and then before we get to milo i know jared you had wanted to say something my apologies for getting you out out of the queue no need to apologize it was my fault i just was jumping the gun but i i was just thinking of um the the fifth amendment at the time that we were talking about that and and the right to remain silent and self-incrimination and when you're trying to take victim statements or compel them to speak i mean there's a lot of rules around that and people's right to with withhold their own perception of the incident in the moment depending on what what's going on and what they're they're facing so i guess that that's maybe something to consider as to why that wouldn't be so practical in terms of capturing that information right away so what you're saying is that regardless of whether or not it's a bpoa issue in particular in in in general that it may very well be a fifth amendment issue correct i think so okay um i know that karen was after was after milo and then i um detective burn i know you would you have your hand up milo go ahead please thank you so i just wanted to um go back to downtown for a moment um there are some things that and i've mister nick and i have had this conversation that they want the department to do that i don't believe are appropriate for sworn officers to do um there are things uh downtown like downtown will be greatly helped um with the csls downtown will be greatly helped with the cahoots model depending on how quickly we can get that up and running i think downtown would be helped uh by csos i also have had issues with the signage or lack thereof downtown um and it's kind of like a running joke with people when i describe that hey there's a sign that says that you can't do any number of things the sign's not clearly visible so it'd be kind of like a scavenger hunt go to city park park and see if you can find that sign so i think um church tree marketplace commission and the city are gonna really have to think about if you don't want people doing certain things yeah maybe the signs aren't as quote-unquote pretty but there needs to be a legitimate um what i would consider to be an legitimate attempt to really make sure people can see that for example they're not allowed to drink in the city hall park we shouldn't assume that people don't know that i see uh college kids drink in city hall park i've seen tourists drink in city hall park as well as other individuals at downtown merchants are um concerned about i mean definitely there are people that are there early in the morning and they they are um they may be drunk they may be something else right sometimes as some of these individuals i'm not necessarily sure it's it's alcohol or drugs it's it just legitimately could be something else that would be uh service better by uh street team kahoot cso so but i think we have to just be really honest about putting up signs and then those signs are actually going to work as tools for say cso's i think that having a sworn officer going up confiscating alcohol at 10 30 in the morning is not the best use of of time uh for for those officers i think we need them doing um other things and of course if something's getting violent then yes they could be called but to just be confiscate i just i have a lot of problems with that um and i'll leave it there thank you very much okay thanks or and i know you um oh gosh karen i don't know you wanted to say something go ahead karen go ahead i will defer to i'll let uh oran go first i think he had his hand up before me i'm just having difficulty sorry i love how every i love how everyone else is self-monitoring i greatly appreciate that oran go ahead i just um i just had a comment maybe to clarify when i'm when i use force i go back to the pd and i write my report by myself and it's from my own perspective that's how i was taught and that's how i teach my trainees is not um a group a group project during my diets what i seen uh what i perceived those actions to be and that's how i document how i document my use of force and i believe that's broad current practice across the pd okay thank you um go ahead karen and then i'm sorry no i was just going to say then we'll go to jeff i know you have your hand up go ahead that no i i was um listening to zaria i was listening to what jeff or mr nick said about you know policing downtown the fact is um and i think commissioners know this um you know once a person is there to do their job from an hr standpoint from an employee standpoint you know there's no um oh you know i i might not be willing to do this job you know you know it's not it's not exactly like if i'm a police officer i might be unwilling to do my job if x y and z occur um that's not the culture in the police department um it it may be that's why we're discussing alternatives um because if a police officer is there downtown in a signed downtown um they will do their jobs so uh i i i really want to say this too in a public meeting like this is a very difficult conversation that's happening nationally across the world it's impacting our employees our bargaining employees and you know i it's very hard to sort of stay a political especially when we're talking about disparities and whatnot but i just want to make it clear that um once a police officer is assigned to something that's that's what they're doing um they are not i don't want any public person in the city thinking that police officers go and just you know this has been this has come up many times and say well i'm not i'm not i'm purposely not going to do that um that that's not what i have witnessed and seen and i don't think that that's protocol i mean it doesn't happen i i couldn't say but i just want to clarify that because that's not um you know i've heard this a lot from the public too it's like you know they're not going to shy away from doing their job if in fact they're assigned for a downtown assignment so it's it's not it's not something where they they get there and say well this person is treating me a certain way so i can't you know i i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be doing this they're gonna be making judgment calls on what they're what they're gonna do we hope they we know we know that they're assigned to do so so it's just not as as fluid as as as folks may think where um you know someone's yelling at me so i can't do that i don't know if you've ever seen the howard center respond to the treat street team i've seen people screaming at them and they stay focused and they stay right on the job and that's what we that's what we really hope um will happen across the board cso csl is really offering that um be named to run through that checklist but you know i so i just don't want to say about our employees that you know they may decide to do something that that's because i don't think that's i don't think it's fair so okay um you know we're gonna you know i think we all have our positions on how we feel about different things that go on downtown different you know we certainly have perspectives um whether it's as a member of the police commissioner or member of the church street marketplace we we sort of agreed at the beginning of this that we weren't going to we we we know how we all feel and that we're going to try our best to stick to the recommendation so with that in mind if you have anything else you want to add jeff um please go ahead yeah karen i know we're getting a little off topic but um just and while we're talking about this i'll make it brief um you know milo and i have talked about these signs i think we can bring out a more robust scientist about there so the question then is if we do that and it's pretty clear that these are the do's and don'ts of downtown and city hall park and then church street and will then the police commission and the city council support the police in enforcing these quality of life crimes including alcohol consumption which leads to later in the day belligerent behavior fights sexual harassment it leads to a lot of bad things so if we don't address it we're going to continue to deal with these issues downtown um and so we need to back up the officers and i think karen they do make judgments calls that's what that's what it is and so why why pour out the alcohol if they're not going to find the support of the city council and police commission when they do this so i think with what we're all asking for downtown is please let's focus on the quality of life crimes because things are getting out of hand down here and we need some help and we need the support of whatever law enforcement looks like moving forward we need to have a robust enforcement program thank you uh thanks so uh what just just for everyone's information since we're all very interested in this um today is a bit of a milestone about an hour ago the after a great deal of effort the rfp for the cahoots model has been posted on the city website as of just a little while ago um the social service crisis team um it was issued today there will be questions clarifications and comments due by friday um april one um and every intention of moving forward with this by um you know by the summer so we are moving forward with that um and uh that's just sort of a an aside um getting back to this i think we have um i know sarah you're trying to fill in a little box here um i think for 4.3.1 um and this is also to some degree also based on oren's um input that they're you know that whether it's i don't know if it's in one of the directives or if it's just simply the way that it has done but that um every effort should be made to assure that um you know that accounts are done independently and we have to we have to trust our officers that when they say that they're doing that that that is what they're doing um as far as the other um is concerned it appears as though um it appears as though um uh writing a distinct report with a and obtaining a subject account is probably most of the time not practical um and i think there's a difference between subject account and a bystander um which i i probably to some degree took that took that second meaning when in fact a subject account is the person who is the perpetrator i i think um that's what it sounds like to me um so you know if there was you know between us between you and i and jane if there is consensus at least that um uh you know we're supportive of the others and that uh you know that that if there if it is possible to get um a a subject account that in effort should be made to do so but that an officer is not under an obligation to do so because it doesn't sound like that's really practical most of the time and it would have to be left up to an officer's judgment to do that is that does that seem reasonable um could i just get clarification on that maybe sure you're able to clarify just so we are sure of what we're talking about i guess in terms of yeah are you asking are you asking what is a subject account yeah just to make sure we're clear on that and then also like what yeah what they're like going forward would be well it seemed as though everyone else thought a subject account is the is the is the perpetrator is that i mean that is that it makes sense i just yeah i like i personally just have no clue so um you know i mean i i i guess obviously it's open to some level of interpretation if we feel it's different then you know obviously we need to say that um i think for my my perspective having talked it through i think that that is what it means um saraya how do you feel about that so i didn't try to answer the question um i just to know so people know what i wrote down is bpd to create a checklist or update the template with all of these bullets as part of the report the exception may be a subject who has recently had use of force on them both for practical and right to remain silent implications we should err on the side of having a bystander account when possible we will also allow use of force subject account if the officer's involved or their supervisor thinks it is a good idea for community cages or restorative justice sounds pretty good to me yeah i'm not sure how you captured all that but that sounds pretty good um all right so why don't we why don't we try to move on to there's a number of items 4.41 going all the way really to the end of this section that the chief has deemed are done um and um i let's see peers that um doesn't appear as though there's a lot of confusion about that um i don't want i don't mean to i don't mean to gloss over them um i know my suggestion my comments were the same for all of these because i feel like they're sort of the same um and because they all they are about the directive five the statewide policy and police use of force um and it appears as though all of these these recommendations these best practices are being done um particularly from the point of view of the police commissioners that are here do you do you feel that those are being done oh jabu go ahead um i was going to say that um i think any and then comes out of these next couple ones uh we can't directly influence we can't change the the state police policy but whatever we try to kind of come out of this for this section i think which is for that to the respective state legislative body that is in charge of writing and maintaining safe support policy okay so are you saying that i mean like do you i know in your comments you agree um uh oh i guess that's what you said um okay um well are there any of you know these are all sort of as i say sort of not one in the same but they're all related to the same issue where there are any items that um uh that that anyone disagreed with the chief's assessment that those are being done um and i know there was one um oren where you had disagreed um uh with item 4.8.1 although the chief had said that this is being done so i'm not really sure what the i wasn't really sure quite what to make of that either of you have a just so that we can understand um how it is that the an officer would feel that they disagree but the chief feels that's being done. Disagreement is probably because very thankfully we don't have very many uh officer involved students um but the reports recommendation to do an internal investigation and force officers to give statements before they leave shift is um for internal investigation purposes is against go practice by a compelling officer to give a statement you're shielding um you're you're invoking what's called guarantee rights and that statement can no longer be used against them in in trials so it's yeah i don't i don't understand where the report was going this and i feel like this is in law enforcement circuits this is pretty well known but yeah so i i disagree with making the compelling officers to give statements you're you know if there is if there is a bad a bad um shooting a burn that was unjustified you know a lot of those a lot of the evidence is in officer statements and now you just removed that as evidence that can be used to you know kind of hold people accountable so i i disagree with this okay um chief you it you had said that this is already being done is that that that's that's the case statewide policy appendix a requires that all officers provide a public safety statement at the scene uh and it uh indicates that the officer and by that it means the subject officer must provide additional information to investigate investigators okay um milo uh thank you so um i agree with um most of the guns because of the new statewide policy that went in effect which kind of overlapped with the completion of the report because that new policy went in effect during the fall um i do have a concern with oh goodness hold on 4.4.1 um police commissioners we're not always allowed to view uh camera footage so if that is something that is going to be allowed going forward i guess i would like to see that updated to say going forward we would be allowed to review um footage that we've requested to see okay all right well that certainly is a that certainly i know is something that you have the commission has wanted so under 4.4.1 we would include that as part of the process um that the commission would have uh the ability to review the a video of any use of force incident um uh as i counselor as i've previously stated the commission has viewed use of force incidents there are parts of incidents not the use of force that cannot be shared owing to issues around uh what can and cannot be shared with non-law enforcement personnel i'm hopeful that the city attorney's office will concur with this we have never failed to provide footage of a requested use of force um we have dealt with issues where we can't see all the available footage from say all the officers that are on a scene and that continues to uh concern me now as the issue come up recently no but because it's happened before it is a concern to me that it could happen again and that's why i would like to see the statement accurately reflect you know what what has been the case that is inaccurate we have never failed to provide video from an officer who had footage of a use of force incident we have uh not been able to provide video that included witness statements or included other parts of ongoing criminal investigations particularly when there are additional prohibitions on sharing it with non-law enforcement personnel okay so because i can't talk about executive session material publicly we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that thank you um jared go ahead uh thank you i just wanted to yeah the chief pointed out it's i'll every time that um in my experience here at the city that there has been a request from the police commission to see video they come to the city attorney's office we evaluated based on state law etc um and it any video that is withheld is not because it's being an obstructionist we're trying to prevent things from being shared i i don't believe um but i do know that there is a desire for more body-worn camera to be released to be seen i think efforts being made and um those policies are being looked at too to see if we can expand it um but again the restriction of state law is something that the legislature would have to rewrite in order for us to permit certain things to be released at certain times and it and that goes to again the litigation and things being carried out in courts and what we can and cannot release to people who don't have specific clearances so well maybe i was just gonna say maybe the way to go ahead go ahead milo i was just gonna say i do understand all of that um and that was not the situation at the time um and unfortunately at the time we didn't have um representation from the city's attorney's office in all the meetings the way we do now so that was an issue so maybe now having the presence of continuing to have the presence of someone from the city attorney's office in all our meetings and executive sessions will prevent something like that from happening but it is still um an issue that that i have with regards to transparency thank you very much and i i know i'm not the only uh commissioner with this concern thank you thanks um so i think maybe saraya when it comes to that that we just simply say that you know that that you know i mean obviously the police commission has come a long way the police commission you know just three years ago was a different a different body than it is now um and through many of their efforts um as well as um many others um so it seems as though uh maybe saying that you know body cam um footage that you know that can be viewed to the fullest extent of of the law um maybe is the is maybe the better way to put that i mean there there probably are some you know i'm not familiar enough but there probably are some issues under which that it can't be seen um and we you know we have to honor the law um or work to change it um so uh you know it seems as though most of these appear to be done the only one that didn't was sorry quick question Karen before you go on i put that under i put this discussion under 4.9.1 does that seem about sir yeah um i mean you know i think in general saraya when we go and do the the committee you know the report um which we're going to try to get done by the end of march um that there is there appears to be fairly universal agreement that given the statewide policy that these issues which the cna report brought up are being done um and and it sounds to me like they were in flux while the report was being written so it's not as if that was the that's the take that i have on this is that some of these things have just recently come about so um you know no no slight on the recommendations and you know certainly you know things can be done at the same time parallel to one another so um the only concern i have is just simply the last not the last one 4.9.2 which was about prioritizing the review including community review revision and development of relevant department policies um and providing updated training on use of force on and i wasn't i i mean that is a training issue um it doesn't it does say it does appear as a statewide policy does take some of this into account so i'm not sure where the partial agreement is on the chief's assessment um that would be the only question i would have i don't know chief if you can speak to that of why you would partially agree this is 4.9.2 yes uh thank you as i said it's i partially agree because some of this touches on the policy review and redraft described in section one there's so many different policies and redraft reviews and redrafts that were described in that section that some of this notion of prioritizing review of these policies as it states is is beyond just the use of force policy and into certain investigatory policies uh training policies and for example in 4.9.1 it talks about uh diminished capacity which is a policy that the police commission is currently reviewing so i agree i partially agree with that in the sense of uh working on all those things i think that there are concerns about how community review is uh is affected that would be a component of the partial um and then it's also partially agree because with regard to revision of the use of force i can't agree with that the state has a version so it's a partial agreement okay all right fair enough um we can probably try to fill in some of those some of those cells um i think we probably are in a pretty good place with that um there's just a couple of items um if everyone is comfortable with moving on we can move on to sections five and six there's only five recommendations together in sections five and six um they're fairly they're fairly short um the the um section five is about patrol operations deployments and traffic stops there's three recommendations um the first is that bpd should implement a traffic stop data system that captures in addition to the current information um the following and there's a number of a number of bullet points here um reason for the stop um time reason for a ticket and warning passenger information officer special assignment or task force open common field um and uh um um that appears to be being done i know for my from what i had said that i it sounds like that is being done it still doesn't address the more critical aspect of the collection uh you know which is the implicit bias concern um but i it sounds to me like this work is being done those this information is not being collected or that more should be done according to the in line with the recommendation okay um so i think the committee's conclusion um would be that this this work this this work is being captured um and we don't need a suggested timeline because we are already doing it um the um the second is that uh that bpd should conduct further analysis and review of body cam footage to understand these disparities and traffic stops and outcomes and address them um and this again is a training issue um is identified as a training issue um and uh don't think that anyone had it's hard to see this entire matrix in one view um i think i have the same question problem again which is that this seems to jump to training without doing the analysis and review the analysis of of the of the disparities in racial and in traffic stops right you know i i know that i went on the um that the portal and looked at the um all of the traffic stops that were stops that were done in 19 and the ones that were done in 21 i didn't i didn't look at 20 because that was such an anomaly um and it appeared as though there had been improvement on i don't think it was it is fair to say that there are no disparities i think that's a a significant overstatement and sort of sounds like something that's being that's already done and i don't know that you can ever say that something like this is just done um that's getting ahead of ourselves that's the four point that's just 5.2.2 um don't quite know how to how to how to how to accurately put that into a conclusion or recommendation in terms of i mean we can we can conclude something but i think it's helpful if we can come up with some path forward if we can i'm sorry go ahead zariah sorry yeah i think for me it's the same thing as it is above i do think that bpd has done a lot more in in past years to address um to address certain disparities specifically on traffic stops so um my understanding is that they are lower but i think again to just go to training if we're playing on addressing this then either we say we've just prioritized this because we have larger disparities elsewhere so i would want some kind of assessment from like from the police department that says like we have chosen these three areas to focus on and disparities this may not be one of them but um unless we have that and are saying we're focusing on other areas of disparities right now i would want to continue to see analysis and review including again of like any body cam footage um so i guess my ask here would be the same as on the other one is that the department comes back with some kind of strategy for addressing disparities across our data and if they're saying traffic stops is just a lower disparity that we've already taken some of the low hanging fruits so we're going to focus on a different area right now that's fine but i think i want a more comprehensive assessment of disparities and how to address them again the with regard to the disparities in traffic it is not a lower disparity there is no disparity in the current traffic data now there is a annual report coming out that is going to be a deeper dive into the data than what i have done preliminarily for 2021 but for 2021 when we look at driving population is measured by crash data we stop fewer black drivers than our members of the driver population and we ticket black drivers less than that all drivers all all stops result in a ticket only 20 of the time 80 of all stops result in a warning more stops result in warnings for black drivers than for white drivers it used to be that that was not the case unless we only factored in drivers who were not suspended that is no longer the case we don't have to use a suspended license caveat black drivers are stopped less than they are part of the driving population as measured by crash data and they are ticketed less than they are stopped and as a rate that is an absence of disparity and there was no there was zero searches of black drivers those numbers cannot be driven lower so that is what i mean when i say there is no disparity in 2021 in this metric you love oh sorry go ahead oh i'm just confused as to and admittedly i read the i'll let me go first um i am going to forward some reporting to thomas to post to board docs because i believe it's relevant to this situation i think at all times we have to continue to monitor trends i know that there was um i think was that one of the npa's this discussion came up before and there was uh some additional documents that were provided um so i'd like to afford that to everybody and um i think we should post it to board docs because i think it's it's important to look at and i think um it'll be when the next yearly report comes out and we've had a chance to review that um it may show some some different things but i i just don't fully agree with that statement thank you and i don't understand like i'm looking at the cna report to say the exact opposite of what the chief just said which is that black and hispanic drivers are ticketed at a statistically significant higher rate compared to the overall average and that's the disparity that they're asking us to address and then i'm also being told that isn't a disparity it's actually the opposite the cna report as does as do local academic researchers is using a span of time i'm telling you that in 2021 the data is what i've stated it is again i open the possibility that the deeper dive for the annual report may find uh some stops or or props even a search that are not captured in the data i am using but preliminarily the data has been clear for 2021 and we made that clear to cna furthermore that trend has been the trend for the past three years in that direction um the uh although in 2020 there was a uh a change in driver stopped where that number diverged in a way that was not what we wanted uh we had achieved we were hover uh the the average percentage of driver not the average the annual percentage of drivers stopped in 2018 was 8% versus 75% of all drivers that is of all all driver of all drivers 7.5% were black 8% of stops were black that is a slight uh a slight overstop in 2019 it was 8.9% of stops were black drivers whereas 8.4% of drivers were black that too a slight overstop in 2020 it diverged quite a bit it was to 11.7% of uh stops were black drivers whereas 8% was their representation in the driving population that was a big gap that gap has reversed itself in 2021 and there is no disparity in the data for 2021 the population of drivers is 8% the population of stops is 7.2% with regard to tickets only 5.6% of all tickets involved the black driver some of the words if 7.2% of all stops involve a black driver which is less than their driving population then 5.6 of all tickets involve a black driver which is far less than 7.2% that is an absence of a disparity according to those metrics again they may be changed once a deeper dive is done and with regard to searches zero it's not the first year we've had zero searches we I believe in 2019 there were zero searches of black drivers that had been a real problem for the department with regard to an over representation of searches that black drivers were overrepresented in the number of searches that were done those have been eliminated the cna report looks at a long time frame that goes I believe from 2012 through 2019 2015 to 2020 that's good to know okay through 2020 yeah so I had also understood previous to this conversation that we've made significant progress on traffic things specifically and so I think I then I would be fine with the recommendation instead of saying training would be to continue to monitor stops ticketing and searches to ensure a lack of disparity achieved in later years of cna's overall data pool continue to be the case or something like that but I don't know how Karen and Jane and others feel about that I mean I'm I'm fine with that I mean the other thing that did that I did notice is just the the significant drop in the number of stops um it's significant it's not half I think it was in the low 1000s and it was I can't remember now I looked at the numbers this weekend and I don't remember what they were but I know that it was a significant drop I don't know it's 89 it's 87 percent counselor so from 2016 from 2016 the the total drop from 2016 through 2021 is about 87 percent there have been uh so and and of the stops for example in 2021 46 were of black drivers that's 46 total stops for 2021 um it may be a little higher because I'm looking at data from uh very late November but um the the the total drop in stops is 87 percent from 2016 through 2021 and can I ask one more question sorry Karen I know it was actually sure and then I know that we also had an issue with an increase in like not listing the race do you know if that's been addressed in this past year yeah I don't believe that was I think that that uh was a phenomenon in one report and not in the city reports the city reports have not indicated that that is a an issue because the data that is taken from the for the city reports that aren't conducted by this department anymore they're conducted by INT but the annual report in 2020 and I'm hopeful this year's annual report are going to suggest that that is not something that is uh that's seen okay right so um for these three items and we we we have the answer on the first one that there is that this is being done um as far as the other um to that um perhaps a perhaps prioritizing those areas where there are the greatest uh disparities would would be the first priority um and uh that obviously this needs to be on you know an ongoing monitored um that this need that you know the fact that there has been a decline in traffic you know in disparities from uh 21 since 19 or even 18 not including 2020 since it was such an anomaly um and that um that that would just be you know that you had said something about a deeper dive that that would just simply be uh you know uh presented to the um uh the police commission and in fact I mean I personally would like to see that come to the council in a in a presentation so that it gains a wider audience as well if we could do that during the you know after April of 2020 2022 um um and I think we only we have only two items left um these were um about patrol operations to continue adjusting patrol assignments to determine resource allocation for mental health response and I know for myself that was uh the the fact that the rfp did go out today does give me hope that we are looking at a uh crisis response team in place by the summer um I don't think there's really any it didn't appear as though there was any disagreement about that um and um and that you know how obviously there would be the hope in terms of having recruitment and retention bonuses as well as the increase in headcount um and a plan that that I believe the chief is going to be coming forward very soon in terms of recruitment um that hopefully there will be um you know more patrol staff in the year to come um so I think we could probably add that as well it will not be in the year it will be this it will be a multi-year process okay um so I think there um and then the other would be um the last recommendation is developing a deeper socioeconomic bias analysis by area that includes a review of type of incidence response times um etc um uh and I think that was you know I I I think that was more just simply whether or not how much of a priority we can make that for the department of innovation of the I you know IT um it didn't appear to be as much of a priority I think maybe on the suggested timeline that would be something that we could put ourselves into either the end of this year or the beginning of next um Karen I have to admit that I didn't read the section because I thought we're just doing four and five um it's okay there's only two great so I might have comments on this next time as well okay all right I mean we can we can certainly go over those um at the beginning of our at the beginning of our next meeting um we'll try to get through um I think there are there aren't that many there's two four six eight ten there's only 12 13 in section seven um section eight is is a long one so I don't know if maybe what we can do for next time is um revisit section six the the two items that we have and then go into section seven um and perhaps begin a little bit of section eight that was sort of my plan so that we could get through section eight um at the last meeting um you know and we'll try to do that um I would um just as a friendly reminder just just once again state that we all know what our positions are on a number of these items and try our best to not only self-monitor where we are in the queue but also self-monitor you know you know repeating ourselves um uh looks like we are in a pretty good place to stop at seven seventeen um before seven thirty it is dark outside sorry about that I thought I was going to be able to make it before it got dark jabou you probably have a you probably want to talk about the police commission meeting so go ahead uh yeah uh I just wanted to know what time we're starting this meeting for next week uh our meeting tentatively actually starts at six o'clock um amenable to starting at talks later but not terribly later for the other for the non bartenders on the commission who like to go to bed early so yeah um I guess it gets maybe half set out either now or it's like next day or two I'd be very grateful now we can we can we can figure that out and we're all here so why don't we try to figure that out um you normally start at six I think last I think last time uh originally we're going to do it sign at six thirty it sounds fun a little bit earlier but we ended up not doing that due to president's day we can I believe so right right um well because we had a we had a council meeting on that Tuesday so yeah so yeah so we couldn't meet um so um well you know if people feel that we could start at five and we'll start at five which would maybe make it so that you could start at like six thirty um six forty five something like that um I know Jared has his hand up as well so maybe have another thought on that I'm happy to start at five if that works for everybody I just finally wanted to remind the chair that we postpone the minutes so if we could circle back before the meeting oh yeah right sorry right thanks for thanks for reminding me um yeah we we could certainly do that I don't know is five is five something that people can do yes okay Milo can you do that uh yeah next week yes I can okay all right um chief oren is that going to work for you five o'clock it works for me okay okay yes okay excellent um all right um yeah we'll get on to the minutes the other thing I just wanted to mention just before I forget is that um um there were a couple of things I just wanted to get back to all of you about the first is um at the next council meeting we will be taking up the um the tab relating to bpoa bargaining so I know that that was a concern that it would somehow rather you know not get the attention it deserved um we will make sure that anything that is remotely bargain a bargainable issue will also be added to that tab and we will be discussing that probably to some degree in executive session with the full council at the next meeting on next monday and then the other thing also Milo had brought up the issue about um videos of the of these meetings being more readily accessible not just on the city website that there is a cost to that um channel 17 is willing to do that and put that on youtube but there is a cost and um I think I may have a solution to that to that issue um it'll be something that I will be particularly talking with Zariah about as a member of the board of finance to move that as an item that we could possibly use council initiative funds on it's a fairly small amount I think you said it was $150 seems as though there's probably about eight meetings or so um I'll make sure and double check that with you Jared and then we'll try to make that put that on the board of finance agenda for next monday um yes and I'm here I can I have the contract to I meant to share that so I can send that to your attention too so you can look that over as well okay all right okay um the minutes uh all three of us are here um uh there are two minutes the minutes for February 15th and the minutes for March 8th um I had to move to I'll move to approve the minutes for February 15th second okay great um all those in favor of the minutes of um approving the minutes of February 15th please say aye aye um opposed we are in agreement on that so we have the minutes of March 15th Jane I think you and I were the only two that were at the meeting on March 8th are you comfortable making a motion on that certainly um I would move to approve those minutes great I will second that um all those in favor please say aye aye I um and I assume so I prefer to not vote on that I prefer to not vote on that and I also don't see them attached to board docs oh really okay you sent them to us Jared so that's how I read I thought that Thomas had posted them I apologize I'll make sure that gets done I'll try to do it tonight okay um is there a concern um is there a concern Jared about us voting on something that has not been publicly posted yeah that's probably best if we hold off and I'll get them posted and then we'll uh I'll revisit that next weekend on the agenda if that's okay okay all right I apologize no worries thanks for letting us know go ahead Zariah yeah and then the only thing I was gonna say was for the discussion next Tuesday if we could do six seven and nine um just so that we can do eight in its entirety that might be nice great excellent yeah there's only five in section nine so okay um we'll get we will get the the rest of the matrix posted hopefully in the next day or so um and then um any work that can be done on getting that um any uh responses and notes if they can go to Thomas and Jared by noon on Monday next Monday that would be incredibly helpful um okay 7 24 we are without objection we're adjourned um thank you all very very much for your time enjoy the rest of your evening and uh I'll see you next Tuesday if not before good night have a good evening and everyone good seeing you all have good night thanks you too