 Welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world? I'm your host Joshua Cooper and today I'm thinking tech live from downtown Honolulu, Hawaii and Juana, New York. Yeah, our episode is focusing on the Southern Poverty Law Center goes global American advocates demand dignity and rights for all and I'm so fortunate to be joined by Lisa Borden senior policy council for International advocacy Lisa Mahalo and thank you for joining us. No, thank you for having me Josh It's so good to hear and share about SPLC the Southern Poverty Law Center And I know they stand up against racial hatred and discrimination in the US But they're also serving as a positive catalyst for social change justice and rights in the South and beyond Why did SPLC decide to begin to start working more in partnership with communities across the country to dismantle? discrimination and white supremacy and approach the serve process Well, you know SPLC started In the 70s as a law firm that essentially was challenging the Klan in the southeastern US But since then it has grown in in many directions and particularly in combating hate and extremism the United States in working for racial justice and decarceration And in and more recently in working just generally to defend democracy And so to that end we've expanded not only from just litigation to policy work But into federal policy work and now into international advocacy because we just recognize that international pressure and international Engagement is another tool that we can use to advance those very important causes It's true the UN committee on the elimination of racial discrimination is an 18 member body And what's exciting is they do review many countries all 128 that have ratified Assert or the ICER the international covenant on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination And that review process is so important. How did southern property law center prepare To make sure that the world would know what's actually happening inside the borders of the US Yeah, so my job at southern property law center in international advocacy is to take the work That our advocates are doing in litigation in policy work around the southeast And and to raise that To international attention. So I'm focusing on the clients that we are representing in various Contacts in the southeast on the very important policy issues that are coming out of southeastern states where we work and trying to just Make sure that those are getting the attention of international bodies as well And particularly for the committee on the elimination of racial discrimination Really race runs Very much through everything that we do. So we work on For example Litigation decarceration. We're working in on voting rights issues is a very big Part of what we're doing and of course hate and extremism, which is is really growing Unfortunately in the united states. So for us The issues that the that the serb committee Is looking at really touches on all of the work that we do It's true when you look at splc You do strengthen intersectional movements to include directly impacted people's voices in the decision making process Very well the community at the capital level in dc But now global civil society And I think if you look at maybe some of the reports that you drafted You could agree that you were able to advance the access to public policy and human rights of all people Thanks, I certainly hope so. I you know, one of the things that we were Most pleased to be able to do In this particular review, which is the first one that we have really fully participated in Was to bring directly impacted people With us to geneva to talk directly to the committee about their experiences We've had formerly incarcerated people from The southeast to who came to tell the committee about their experiences with prison labor With solitary confinement in u.s prisons With felon dis disenfranchisement Voting voter suppression in the united states. So for for us The ability for these international mechanisms to be able to hear directly from the people Who the issues they're reviewing are affecting their daily lives. This is very very important And you definitely went beyond the national border to the world board of public opinion What were some of the steps you did to prepare for the august 11 12th review before you got on the ground in geneva? Well, as I mentioned, I'm I'm focused on um Taking the work that other parts of splc are doing and and then Turning those The context, you know to the context of international advocacy. So The first thing I needed to do was really look at Who are the clients we're representing in the areas that are going to be reviewed by the cert? I you know knowing what's in the treaty What are we doing and who are we representing who are being impacted by those areas? And how can I then present those issues to the cert in a report or actually in our case three reports that we submitted to the cert? um In a way and you have to do it in a concise concise way because there are pretty strict page limitations on the amount of information you can provide um, but the committee really relies on organizations like splc and others to provide this information because as you said it's an 18 member body These are people who are Almost all of them not from the united states. So they're relying on us To tell them what's really happening here. They have a report from the united states But they need to hear from civil society organizations. What's really happening on the ground and so that's our job That's a really good summary because when you look at it what does happen is Prior to arriving in geneva as you said the u.s. Government writes its report And of course it's usually glowing and how good and how many resources are being dedicated And then as you said civil society in this case splc drafted three reports And then it's getting those documents to them and that's when the real work sort of begins after we do draft those We then arrived in geneva In august and what was it like? What were your first impressions of that exciting week? completing with the actual Reviews on the 11th and the 12th um, you know the the first thing that really really impressed me was that There were so many organizations from the u.s. Who showed up in geneva To see the committee and to tell them what was really happening Uh, you know, I've I've been involved in in international advocacy before Working with other organizations before I joined splc And I had never seen that level of engagement from civil society organizations So just I was really blown away by the number of organizations that were there and also the the collaborative way That they worked we all worked to make sure that we use the very limited time that's available with the committee to to make the best and most effective presentation of all the many issues that we raised because um, you know while splc had a number of issues voting rights decarceration some education issues rights of migrants um, and and A number of others there were indigenous rights organizations there were reproductive rights organizations There were organizations raising many different issues and we had to make sure that we effectively presented all of that To the committee in a pretty short period of time that was available to us to brief them um and for our Many of us brought directly impacted people with us and for those people to get a chance to speak And it's true when you look at it We arrived there on sunday on sunday is the first time most people got to see each other in person Due to covet but also because we work all across the country And then on sunday breaking up into those small working groups that then we're trying to come up with drafting the language And then agreeing to limit their own time and making sure that we shared that window because as you said Everybody met on sunday, but then on tuesday Was the first time that we really had two and a half hours to be able to speak directly to those 18 members But also even include the voices from people back home That were zooming in so we really look at a two hours and a half time period with roughly eight dozen civil society Representing directly impacted peoples and amazing advocates to try to share Specifically what's going on in the country and also give the questions and recommendations Of what these 18 experts should concentrate on and that's what I think you really summarize it so well There could be a sense of competition But really collaboration and cooperation was what dominated the day And prevailed throughout the entire week and one of the stories that Really touched me the most was when we shifted from indigenous In the first part to then featuring Terrence maybe you could say why his story was so powerful and it really was the eyes of the world Focusing on fundamental freedoms in the us Yeah, absolutely So one of the three reports that that splc worked on was a coalition report of a number of organizations that represented people in southeast and One of those organizations promise of justice initiative from louisiana introduced me to terrence win Who was incarcerated in angola prison in louisiana when he was a teenager and served 30 years at angola And he was released just a couple of years ago, but and and since then He has actually started his own nonprofit organization in shreveport louisiana where he is Encouraging youth, you know to to Better their lives and make sure that they don't wind up where he was he's in working on behalf of Wrongfully incarcerated people and doing a lot of wonderful work so Terrence was able to go with us to geneva and to tell his story and as you mentioned in that preparation part You know, we all had to work together very carefully to to have Just a couple of minutes to speak and terrence You know having never been in a position like that before did a wonderful job of of You know telling his whole story in two and a half minutes to these committee members And he talked about how When he went angola at age 17 The very first thing he was required to do as a job assignment was to pick cotton And he was you know Overseen by you know armed white men on horseback and it was very he said, you know I I went from learning about slavery in my history books in school to literally being a slave and He said that you know, he just couldn't bring himself to participate in that and so he refused And was put in solitary confinement and and sometimes put in solitary confinement for very long periods of time And uh, you know, I thought he did such a powerful job of speaking that truth And people were really moved and the committee members were really moved by hearing You know, I put it I could put those that information in a report But hearing it directly from the person who lived it is a whole different thing And it and it's so powerful because you wouldn't think to say you have two minutes two and a half minutes to tell your story That's a story and that you could convey that but Terence did an amazing job And there was everyone in the room's attention was captivated and he summarized it so sincerely And described what he went through and touched on all the issues The prison to pipeline how it's continuing that aspect of solitary confinement, which many un instruments Is very concerned about in our country But then also it's talking about where we need to go and how we should go forward with specific Questions to post to the u.s. Government, but also those recommendations as well Yeah, and I think you know when we and I know we're going to talk a little bit later about what the recommendations were that were finally published today, but everything that Terence said was very much reflected there and and I think you know He's to be gradually congratulated for that Yeah, and that really then set the tone for our next two days where we were able to negotiate as we were talking about earlier We're on a small delegation with jamil and they had offered to give us the thursday afternoon And we really thought that wouldn't work We thought it would be too much work because the u.s. Civil society, but also the u.s. Government delegation with all the national agencies and departments was so big That we would not have enough time so the able ability to be able to diplomatically secure two breakfast briefings Was also quite significant And I think that was also important. That was the wednesday morning was the first breakfast briefing where People focusing on racial justice were able to once again reinforce that initial first Meeting on tuesday and then also to dig deeper and and meet and connect closer with the experts Did you have any one-on-one interaction with the expert said how'd you find those 18 experts in the process? Yeah Actually throughout the week we were able to set up some meetings not only with a couple of the committee members But also with other u.n. Mechanisms So part of the really important part of being on the ground in geneva Was that flexibility to to find people and meet with them about our issues So for example, we met with people who Work with the special rapporteur on racism We met with people who work for the working group of experts on people of african descent And a number of other mechanisms So there was just lots of opportunities to make sure that all of the information that we put in our reports and all of the information that are are Directly impacted colleagues had to share was shared with as many people as possible and all of them committee members and other mechanisms were Very receptive very very happy to be able to get this information because as I said They all do rely on us to bring it to them. You know, they just can't You know, sometimes they can make a country visit Some mechanisms can come and you know make a short visit to the country, but even even then There's a very limited amount that they can garner so To to get that information from organizations like ours is is Allows them to do their jobs And it's true. It's tomorrow be the day of african descent Happening and we know that the intersectionality of all the issues was really brought up and raised well We know the independent expert on sexual orientation and gender identity Is just wrapping up a visit to the united states where it went to alabama and many places that Is quite brave in making sure that we push This human rights framework on how we look at public policy going forward And I think that came out really well also in the consultation when the u.s. Government posted The civil society At the u.s. Mission. I don't know if you had any reflections on that or Aspects, but I know it did shift in many ways the position of the u.s. Government from the way they were approaching interacting with civil society Yeah, you know, I think it's important to to note first of all that The u.s. Government had been conducting these this series of consultation meetings with civil society leading up to Everyone going to janita that had been going on for a couple of months And we'd had a number of hour or two hour meetings Focused on different topics that were likely to come up during the review um And while I have to say that, you know, I certainly think that the biden administrations approach to human rights is, you know A sea change from the previous administration and so much more desirable And I do think that the biden administrations intentions in this area very good um the execution has sometimes been a little lacking and um these consultations that we've had Um before the trip to the janita had been Um often felt like form over substance. There'd been not not nearly enough substance coming from the u.s. Um agencies who participated and You know felt like we were feeding them information to help them prepare that they weren't really giving a whole lot back So we really had hoped and some some of us organizations had expressed the administration writing that we hoped that there would be more substantive interaction in janita So we went there with that hope We went to this final consultation session at the u.s. Mission It's a very large delegation with representatives from many different agencies from the state department from the white house, although I have to say Not from the domestic policy council the white house only only foreign policy Which you know, we're talking about domestic implementation of a treaty not foreign policy So that was a little disappointing. Um, but it you know this this consultation really For most of the time we were there was kind of the same thing. There was a you know some very sort of top level general statements about different issues arising under the treaty but Really no commitments about what they were going to do about it really not very much specific um, and so It really felt, you know, kind of let down in a way But at some point very late in the meeting some of the groups and I in particular want to thank, you know, the indigenous rights organizations and reproductive rights organizations who Really just honestly had had enough and um and said and you know What what i'm saying that you know, this is not this is not acceptable. It's not sufficient. It's not getting us anywhere Um, you know, we're all spinning our wheels and and we're very very disappointed And really some of the u.s. Delegation appeared to have been very affected by it And that was in really when we went to the formal review and the u.s. began to make their presentation Some of that came out from some of the delegation members who said, you know We heard you yesterday and we you know, we're gonna do better and we know we have to do better. So I hope that sticks I agree those lead-up consultations usually early mornings here in hawaii Or just seemed as you said sort of performative And what was quite crucial was as you did say the meeting up the mission It was from three to five is when it was scheduled But then sort of from five to six thirty that last 90 minutes I agree there was a breakthrough and It was reproductive rights saying we are here. We are partners. We should be trusted It was the sharing by the activists from chicago saying the caskets are getting smaller and smaller But i'm still doing voter registration drives and we have to do more Don't send me home with empty buckets and as you did say it was indigenous It was western shoshone defense project saying think and do the right thing think of the mother earth Think about the long-term consequence of what's going on And there was a shift You could see department of labor starting to Tear up you could see health and unit services You could see The global envoy you could see even the new ambassador Saying that we've got to do things in a different way and that carried over I agree with you even at the spiritual Service that we had outside By the serpentine cafe It was not only civil society meeting there for that spiritual ceremony, but also Department of interior joined and so did a handful of others So that did carry over and we did hear the opening comments on august 11th And you could hear a change We know that state department had to do a lot of writing that night to change what they were about to say And one last point I definitely agree with you is national security council always said takes such a prominent role But it should have really been other agencies even though there's a great broad section of the Important cabinet offices. There should be a different focus that looks at human rights as a domestic Really way to go forward in our decision-making processes right and I mean, I think you know The presence there or the absence of the people that you really would have wanted Is really reflective of something that's been going on in the u.s. For a very long time Which is that you know the the u.s. Signs and ratifies some of these treaties not all of them But some of them and but then it doesn't give them any field of operation You know congress never passes any laws that incorporates them into domestic law and then administration successive ones and not just the trump administration, you know the bomb administration the biden administration Doesn't take any steps to Incorporate them into its domestic policy and a good example of that that we have raised throughout these consultations and in our reports to the un-cert committee Was that the biden administration president brad biden issued racial equity executive order that required Agencies to undertake a pretty sweeping review of their policies and procedures and look at racial equity issues and come up with a strategic plan to advance racial equity Which is great, and I have no criticism of that except for this None of them not neither the order nor any of the plans made any mention of the treaty upon racial discrimination and you know, um, if that's not a golden opportunity to incorporate Uh international human rights obligations a treaty that has been signed by the u.s. Into some kind of domestic policy in the u.s. I don't know what it is uh, and it was just like They didn't even think of it And now, you know at and after the fact when you say well, why didn't you do this? And you don't even get an answer Um, and so that's you know, it's always an afterthought and compliance is always just sort of a coincidence You know something happened that sounds like it complies. So we'll Check that box, but there needs to be much more intentional Efforts to comply and that's what we're really hoping for It's true the intentionality and the intersectionality really came across from civil society And from the government side It was a kawinke dinker a wow that would have been good And I think that came through by the surge Members questions by the recommendations through that six hours You could see them starting to say it's not enough It must be more and to really start institutionalizing with maybe a standing uh group of these agencies Ender agency standing task force Or a national human rights institution You could see surge saying Do better and do it well coordinate this on the country level and some of the recommendations we can see At least the direction of how The biden administration but also the u.s. government no matter who's in the white house should be taking steps And I think voting rights as well as prison building on what you shared earlier With terrence's story and education issues. Maybe you could share some of those recommendations and how those were positive as we go forward Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really if people want to look at these recommendations. I I think people should look at them Um, I wish more people realized that you know, they even have international human rights that they're entitled to rely on um, and they they they should look at what these you you and bodies are recommending, but it's important to know that The you know, this is a diplomatic Institution and they speak in diplomatic language So, you know, what sounds like, you know, not necessarily really sharp language Might be for example in a number of cases both during the questioning by the committee members And also in the conclusion written conclusions and recommendations The committee said that it regretted You know the the responses from the u.s In diplomatic terms regret is a big deal. Um, you know, you don't regret something less really bad And so, you know for for the the serve to say that it regretted The lack of substantive information that was that was provided or that it regretted the lack of progress Um, that was really, you know Really saying that there was a serious deficit It's true. And when you look at the recommendations in the language that did come out today What would you say would be some of the most important initiatives that could be taken up? That we might be able to inform and influence the institutions of the u.s Well, as I as I said, um, you know, I do think that some of the most important things that the committee said were about this overarching Need to incorporate the obligations of the treaty in what the government does because it just has failed to do that and During the questioning One of the white house representatives did say to the committee That the white house would consider studying The possibility of setting up a national human rights institution or some similar mechanism to coordinate And monitor implementation of the treaty and that was very different From what that same person had said, you know during pre review consultations with civil society So I really hope there's an opening there For us to push the administration To to do something that that actually brings some Cohesiveness Some intention to its efforts to comply with this and other treaties Um, I think that's a really big deal and something that we can we can make progress on Um, another go ahead. Sorry. Oh, please continue I was just going to say another thing that that I found in particular, you know, southern poverty loss center one of um, our biggest areas of work is combating hate and extremism and we you know, we monitor the activities of hate white supremacist groups and our government groups across the country and The committee's concerns about the prevalence of hate speech including hate speech by public officials and politicians Uh, and the rise of hate crimes and the increased activity of white supremacists and other hate groups Um, I appreciated that that they placed such emphasis on that The recommendations that they made specifically addressed the fact that Reporting of hate crimes to the fbi by law enforcement agencies is voluntary and there's just terrible under reporting So really we don't even have good data On the number of hate crimes Who the victims of these hate crimes are across the country because so many law enforcement agencies Just don't even report it and you can't you know, you can't really act on What you don't know and so it's very very important um, we had recommended in our report and the committee actually echoed this That the government the federal government should Do whatever it can to require law enforcement agencies to to do this reporting and You know, the the u.s. Government is very good at saying well, you know, this is the states We we don't control the states. We can't make them do But you know what the government has that it can use to go to fact when it decides to do so is money And we have always encouraged you in You know mechanisms to to use funding as either carrot or stick and um I was pleased to see the committee recommend that as well No, it was a very thorough six hours, but as you said sometimes what the 18 experts said or didn't say and how they said it just spoke volumes of how much further we have to go in the united states to really Recommend but more importantly realized the universal declaration of human rights crafted by hola nor Roosevelt and make sure that Decades later people can have that fundamental inherent dignity In their daily lives and we think the southern poverty law center for your work in bringing this to the un And we look forward to focus on the implementation in the next phase as we focus on these recommendations going forward Thank you. It's so great to work with you and look forward to doing more in the future Oh, thank you so much and we look forward to making sure that the decade of african descent becomes A genuine space where we focus on social justice But also to use all the un human rights systems from the universal periodic review to all the human rights council special procedures as well Thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo You can also follow us on facebook instagram twitter and linked in and donate to us at think.kawaii.com Mahalo