 Hello, welcome to Trophy TV. We thought we'd have a chat about Kevin Thelwell's interview on the training ground we did last week. More communication from evidence-directed football. It's good, we hadn't heard, we'd had a couple of newsletters kind of thing but we hadn't really heard from them. Then the BBC sounds documentary came out that Julia Bould did, nothing will be the same. Check that out if you haven't. Off the back of that we've now got Kevin talking through the training ground guru. Ped, it's good that we're finally hearing from Kevin Thelwell and I thought in the holy interview was quite good. No, it's a good podcast. It's obviously torn to someone who understands the process in many ways. Someone who obviously is...it's a podcast that obviously talks with a lot of people similar to him. So a lot of the same things are spoken about in it and he comes across really well. It's a pity that so far we haven't heard too much from him but obviously a lot was revealed about him in the BBC sounds podcast as he said. Again it's that familiarisation with somebody who works at the club that we all have a lot of hoping. On the football side there's only really the manager isn't there who's head of him in terms of how much of effect he has. We've said this for a long time. I think if you humanise people you get to know them a little bit more then you're not going to be as rash to me sweeping statements about them or just make any kind of statements about them to be honest. No, it's a really good podcast and he said some interesting things. John, people will often say well you don't hear from directors of footballer here or a disc club or that club but given how well Kevin Thell does come across in the two pieces that we've heard. Does it push you a little bit that effort and haven't done their own version of this? I get that. Sometimes it's easier to talk to an external person because they'll ask different kind of questions but like Peds just said making these people a little bit more human to watch their fan base I think might give them a little more time out of the shadow. You might hear something different. No I don't because you're quite right. I mean Julia did a fabulous job and I think universally people thought me included you I guess, Peds. That the Kevin bits were good. You go, halleluw you finally we're hearing from the guy and then of course that was part of quite a large piece wasn't it. But then you get then when the next thing comes out we shouldn't be surprised that's good as well because I mean for me it's a bit, I mean Kevin and Sean must get on well because they speak a bit of MBS don't they? But the contents there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and again he comes across really well. So I don't for the life of me understand why he's been here so long before anything's been done. Clearly you know we've heard stories and rumours he doesn't like doing them but well if he doesn't like doing them he doesn't show when he does do them. So maybe someone else didn't like him doing them I don't know. But Evan should be doing this themselves. Just to clarify MBS is management business speaker which is what John has just done. It's management bullshit. And we don't need that really because you have to decode what he's really saying and fundamentally what he's saying is his job is to produce a competitive team that uslock and believe in. And he also talks about we're going in the right direction which is true and we can all see it on the field can't we? The disbelievers who didn't like stats and XG this, that and the others are now seeing it with their eyes on a football pitch. We did lose the XG on Saturday because we won the game. It won't get mentioned now because we're winning football matches right? But it's all about trend analysis and anyone who works in business knows that you've got to see what the underlying trend is. And the underlying trend was the Dyche as a manager supported by the director of football. So that's part of his job where getting the underlying trends right it just wasn't showing. And there's always some lag between making a change and seeing the benefits right? So I don't know why I haven't done it because if nothing else lots of other fans are going to click on this aren't they? They're going to watch it. To be honest they're going to listen to it and that could all be clicks that the football club has to do with it before. I agree, I agree. What's good I think about this one pair or what's slightly different or majorly different I guess to what Julia did. Julia was very much within the season and coming to the end of the season. So a lot of it was focused on what was being difficult, what happened in January, what happened here, whatever, which was good. That was really good. And this one is more I guess an overview of what he's encountered so far. How he picked the manager out of the back of the manager and what he hopes to encounter moving forward. So did you get any insight in that or did it give you a little bit more comfort listening to answer that stuff for you? I think what the main thing I took from it is there's a fair bit of realism in what he was saying in terms of where they are. When he was asked the questions about the finances and stuff and where they are and I think he actually confirms that the only money he spent was on a loan player. We know that loan player was Dan Juma. So that's one thing when people talk about the finances of the football club. Which is doing exceptionally well by the way. He was saying that the finances are very, very tight and they have to wait up budget and that's very difficult to obviously see things. And it's good to hear things like that because ultimately that's the job he's got to do. You should never, like John just said a day, but you should bullshit fans when everyone knows what's going on. It should be open and transparent to the most you can be, I imagine. And that will have made this job very, very difficult. It's very different and he even says himself I wouldn't have this job if there hadn't been issues and it's my job to take those issues round. And I think there's a realism there of where we are and that again is something which is important. We've had many years of people trying to tell us things that we know are just not right or trying to pull the wool over our eyes. That frustrates people because you're just like we're not children. Football fans and Evertonians get treated like kids. Football fans in the hall but I think our club for a long time is treated as like kids. Or you can't know that and it still goes on to a degree. You shouldn't know that. Why shouldn't we know that? It's our football. We don't want to know the ins and outs of everything. But there are things where you're just like we know that's not true and you keep on playing this club line. So I thought he come across really well and for him he's been in the job 18 months now hasn't he? Nearly two years. Two years in January. Again I'm not going to go overboard and say you know you start to see the fruits but because it is a massive job. But it's good that he's spoken to someone like that and it's interesting the way it's been used, the interview, the way Everton have used it. I find that quite very interesting and that to me says that maybe Everton should employ somebody to do more of these interviews. That is sort of one foot in, one foot out of the football club. John, this is I guess comes into your chief engagements officer doesn't it? Things like this of how you can make people at the football club more human. Kevin Thelwell being one of them. Fans will look at the director of football. Marcel Brans came in with a big reputation. We didn't really get to hear from Marcel either. A couple of general meetings. A general meeting where he'd done it and his presentation was actually really good. And you're like why couldn't other fans, why was it only Cheryl? That why couldn't regular fans just listen to that and go oh I understand exactly what Marcel's on about. Now right that's where we're up to. A lot of it is just like I'm not going to tell you but we don't need to know everything. Is this surely they're little wins that you can get and go look this is where we are in general. And it's just like a pointer for fan bases to go yeah that's where we are I understand it. Football clubs and I think ours is particularly acute at it. Can get themselves into both the bubble, they live in a bubble right which is a common accusation. But also they can get themselves into a routine that almost you know they fall into a space that says in these things because we have to. Not because we want to. You know you look at preview periods don't you for broadcast rights where the manager turns up. He deals with some annoying questions from some journalist he's never seen before and then he goes on to get on with his day job. Now of course you do have to do those. But every public pronouncement that you have is an opportunity to promote the football club to generate ink to catch another few fans who get to choose because the overseas or whatever it might be. And what's really disappointing is that when we spend as fans months if not years trying to hear from someone like the director of football and we get all the noise back and he doesn't like doing that and all this sort of stuff. And then he does them and we go that's refreshing isn't it. That's really good. I like what he says. I might be a bit if he would the NBS and I might be a bit as you I think you just nailed it really well about a foot in both camps. It's not a challenging interview. It's a tame interview. But it's not just tame as if the football club had just said and watch your favorite biscuit. At least the fellow the fellow who's talking to him knows what he's talking about. Absolutely right. Absolutely right. And I think that's the strength of it really. And let's hope that whoever within the club needs the confidence to push some of this content because it's not like it's live. Right. So you can edit it. You can you know who I didn't answer that quite right. But what we don't want is very tame flat frankly boring interviews done in-house. Now clearly you can try and control the stuff that gets done externally. But as you said the man still knows his subject who's interviewing him. They're not going to just be patsies for a football club and so on. And yet the club have done it in the past back in the day when we did the EBM you know the podcast stuff. You know we we had we interviewed Ryzansef and they never stopped us asking any questions. I think Brian Duggan one or two things. He said oh you can't say that sort of thing. And that was where frankly you know Sasha was critical of a sponsor right. So you think oh fair do's. So the club does have the trust in it. So maybe in the past it's been at the the executive level. Someone is just going nah right. And we know that Bill was very much a character of if you don't say anything you can't get anything wrong. Denise was a commander control freak who wanted everything scripted you know. So maybe just maybe we're seeing the the green shoots of you have the culture change. You want to call it that. And the sooner you get that chief engagement officer in the place to try and build it build upon it the better. Absolutely. Ped let's I mean the positive stuff out of it. Let's have a look at it. People should go listen to it. Absolutely. Yeah absolutely. He was talking about we've got it on the screen there you know for Evertonians building something for people to believe in. That's probably the best bit of the thing. The thing he talks about you know Evertonians want dogs of war but they also want school of science and stuff like that. I mean that. That is it's good that you're actually hearing because that is almost like that a sort of philosophy that we are trying to follow. With that now it's not nailed down to week like three at the back of me. The goal he touches it with centre back to me. But for us. I know Sean doesn't want that. No no but that's like a through line for us isn't it to see what they're doing with you know. That's that's him from that kind of thing it's a case of yeah understanding what the fans want but no. Being held to it and that's their philosophies rather than a style of play aren't they. Yeah. Dogs of war or school of science isn't aren't real things aren't they. They're not. They don't really say anything dude. They're just monocas that we've put on particulars. And actually school of science meant you did everything basically. They're not particularly. You know aren't we going to play boss school of science. It doesn't it doesn't really come across but. He said he said the right things. And more importantly I think it's it's a case of. Understanding. Understanding what you've lean and what the fan who the fan base are. The guys come from out he's in out he's come from outside. Of course his dad is a big evertonian. Yeah. I won't say I just won't say any more about that but it's that's a big evertonian. So he understands. He understands because it's that. Especially like. That will probably be on some other fan. Exactly going. Why do you do this? Why do you do that? That's because that's that's. To real to him isn't it. It's a real. It becomes a real pressure doesn't it. The pressure is real. You don't you just. You don't walk away from that. If you lose your job or you want to quit your job and go. I've left that behind. That's like that follows you forever doesn't it. So. That kind of thing is good to hear. And there'll be loads more behind that of course. Which is. You know that's that's the tip of the iceberg isn't it. In terms of what his job is. Satisfying what fans. Desires. He's going to have so much going on. This will be the most complex balancing act. That he's ever had to deal with. As a. As a. Because you've got everything hasn't he's got all. And going through the stressors of. The. Obviously what we've seen at the end of the season is. You know. That's twice. That's not easy. That's on him. That's on him as well as part of his job isn't it. So. Yeah. It was it was it was good to hear some of the things he said. Because as I said before. It's not like he's. Walking around. You know. Thinking it's the job's going amazing. He's just thinking. We look like. We look like we're starting to. Go the right way. Not in the corner. Not. We've got it all right. We've just started to in the ship around. In the right direction. And the next bit is let's see. What way we can go with it? He talked about Sean Dyche. He does. He said he was on the radar. And different things. And he coming in. And he talked about. Sean Dyche evolving. Since he coming in. As I said from what he was at the end. He says the numbers tell you that. The facts will tell you that. And all that. And have it not. You were obviously at Telleys Park at the weekend. So you never win there. And that six wins in nine. So if you look at where. Where kind of we were when Dyche come in. And where we are now. So was sort of. What are we kind of like 10 months on in the process. Or nine months on in the process. Are you seeing for you. Some evidence that not only is the manager kind of. Evolving a little bit from. From what it started. But also seeing like Pets. You said the team. Beginning to go in the other way. You go to every single game on one way. So you will. You will be able to chart. The difference in evidence performance is on the road. And I go to some park as well. But are you seeing something where you go. You know what. Probably for the first time in a couple of years. We look a little bit more durable. Because we've been very weak in the last two seasons. I think it's a complex question. Right really. That's what I'm here for. Because. Things you always have to see. We've talked before about trends right. And there's glimpses in this podcast. And obviously the written word I think isn't great. The loser's it. Yeah yeah. So anyone who's read the article on the website. You really do need to go and see the interview. Right. And you see glimpses of the what. Right. A little bit of how. Right. Both of them incomplete. Right. And know when. Right. And that's the hard one. Because no one's going to say. I'm going to win the league in five years time. Because you just you know what I mean. But you still got to give trust in the audience. Which is the fan base ultimately. About well I'm not going to tell you every goddamn task I've been given by the boss. But I am going to allow you to understand that. You will know if we're achieving what we say. We're laying the foundations for if this happens. Right. And I think that there's a safe place there right now. Which is we're not going to get relegated. Unless something really serious happens. Outside the control of people like Kevin and Sean. And by definition therefore the players. We're not getting relegated. Because there's teams that are worse than us. Right. But that's all you want. Teams are worse than us. And some of the teams are better than us. And what we need to do is learn what they're doing wrong. So we don't do it. Learn what they're doing right so that we do do it. But the timing is great. The board's been wiped out. Right. And it will be when the ownership if when the ownership changes. The manager's got stability which he perhaps wouldn't have had. If Farhad was still got his hand on the tiller and going oh my gosh we've lost three games. Change the manager. You know that sort of thing. Some of the people who are very cautious and lacking in the ability to make decisions at the right time in the right way. And I mean not necessarily bill per se but say the chief exec and those sorts of people. They're gone. Right. So these guys haven't got anyone stopping them doing the right thing. And maybe they're never going to say that are they. But just maybe that little bit gives you the confidence. I ain't going to get shot in the next five minutes. But perhaps more relevantly I'm not going to be told what to do everybody 30 seconds. Because there's no one to tell me at the moment. So quick Sean. Come on. Let's get the foundations laid down to that. And clearly he gets on well with the people at 777 because he's worked with some of them before. And of course Sean is like most Premier League managers confident in his own ability. They don't last at all long if they're not. And all that trickles into the players. So the players are just playing with confidence aren't they. They know what's expected of them. Is that Sean being clear and very narrow with you do this. You do that. You do the other. And he's sticking to his guns. So all that builds momentum. And I think that's what we're seeing now. I mean the team spirit is fabulous and appears. It's visible on the pitch. People can see it. Right. Dan Jumas getting left out celebrating and jumping on people and so on. That's a real challenge. You can't fake that. No. Right. So that's real. Right. These guys will come out the trenches together and they'll stand and fall about how they do it together. And that's all on the manager. And this guy presumably given the manager the time to do it by dealing with giving him air cover. Right. And what they did in the last transfer window clearly was demonstrably very good because they got most of what they needed. And they haven't spent any money yet. What they need is a ball back in then. Right. Because it's not his job as he talks about in the podcast to sort out the club's finances. He means his own finances. Right. But also when you say and he rightly does he talks about sticking to a budget. That's normal. Whether your budget is 50 million or 100 or 500 or a billion it's still a budget. Right. And hopefully these guys are doing the yards on prepping because they're doing the short medium long term thing. Well you've just let them wrap up. I'm going to put you just let it on nicely to the next one. I mean Pedd, we've just seen. He talks about his time at Red Bull. He's clear. While he was at Red Bull he did a match one of the youngest rosters they called in MLS. And we've seen a little bit of that with Evan. Obviously we've seen Timothy coming this summer, James Garners and other one. Amadou onnana. Nathan Patterson's already there. Everton Chason, younger players around Europe now. There's a couple of lads from Corinthians in Brazil. He made that sound so bad. Younger players. Chason players around Europe. I'm trying to get a track. There's one! Doesn't sound any better. Does it? Interested in players with high ceilings. Now you're right. And obviously lower value to get them in and obviously make them up. We've got one of the youngest starting 11s haven't we? I think he's hoping to develop that here as well. And we have to almost do that with our budget. Well I think that's best practice. I think we are probably one of the last teams to realise that you don't really lose money on young players. If you bring them in and you put them into a Premier League squad. You tend not to lose money on them. And we saw that. Brands brought in Henry on Ycury. And we made... Walsh. Sorry, Walsh brought them in in there. Brands brought in Brands White. The ceiling for him is huge. So we've had... Hopefully we don't because we keep it. No, no, but we have had these players. But we don't seem to understand that if you... You can bring them in, loan them out, have a good plan for them. And I know what he said, he mentioned in recently about... We're not at the place where we can have the Brighton model yet. Looking three years down the line. We're very much going from window to window. And I suppose it's every year for him is to create that thing when he brings young players in is to say... Is to add another maybe six months every time. So it's not this transfer window. We can now add on another six months. We're actually now looking... The summer. The summer. And then we'll look on it. So every six months add another six months. Hopefully. And that's the way you do that is bring young players in. Develop them. Give them minutes. Give them minutes, loan them out. And then move on some of those other players. And you keep on evolving the team all the time whilst bringing money in. And that is obviously that's the real positive. And John, finally, he talks about... Cos this is the question which is again why you really have to listen to the podcast. The host asked him about younger players and getting minutes. Talked about winning Premier League 2 with the older squad in that division. And everyone was critical of keeping players for too long. Nathan Broder is doing really well at Ipswit. Still an Everton player at 24. And he's never going to be in Everton's first team. But he's doing really well now. And there's other players. And he does talk about that, Kevin, of making the decision going. We have to make a decision on these players by 90. If you're not in Everton's, you're not playing league football. What are we keeping you for? And we have... He's talking about Ellison. We make money on Ellison. It's Tom Cannon. On an ideal world. And he thinks he's going to say this. We'll make some on Robin as well when he goes. But the thing is, in an ideal world, you're trying to develop a place to play in your first team. But if not, develop players who will then go and make money. Now we've got 15 million for those two strikers. So we need to see a bit more of that as well. A lot of money walk out the door. Exactly. Absolutely right. And that's why it's top to bottom. And he doesn't talk about it, of course, because the old boys and girls used to talk about his few hundred item project plans. But it's been objective around those things. And he's being consistent as well, because you go back to the Julia thing. He talks about... We've learnt about Antigone being an example. Let's just be decisive. And we've talked on this channel many, many times. The only thing the club has to do to give us a lot of happy is be decisive about its decision making and be able to effectively communicate with the fan base. And wing games. Because if you do those two, you will be doing the other stuff. This is the point about where you are. And hence the what, the how and the when. And if there's people out there thinking we want to get in Europe, then let's do it this season, right? Let's not do it in 10 seasons time. The same but with our favoured one of the stagions to finish, move into it. You know what I mean? Be decisive. And if you fail, fail quickly, right? And we will forgive them, won't we? We will forgive them if they're trying to do the right thing. It doesn't quite work. And then they explain what went on and why and all that sort of stuff. And I think this is really good stuff. This is what Kev's done in this one and it builds on the Julius stuff as well. And let's look forward to the next one. Let's hope it's in the house and it's not tight. Absolutely. Let us know what you think in the comment section. Have you listened to the saying on the ground, Guru's podcast with Kevin Thull? What did you think of it? What else would you like to hear as we move forward and should the club be letting them communicate with us? Get the manager as well. Get the manager in a more relaxed thing. Absolutely. Make it all more of a relationship with us fans instead of keeping them at arm's length from people and therefore not being able to build a relationship. So, let us know what you think in the comments. Give the video a thumbs up and subscribe if you haven't. See you later.