 Good evening everyone and welcome to Inside Another History of Fireside Chat here at the bike stop in Philadelphia. It's April 12, 2014. I'm Doug O'Keefe. I am the co-producer and the host of the Fireside Chats. These are produced with Mistress Joanne Gatti and Christina Cork who is doing the filming of the chat. Now to that vein only we will be filmed. The audience will not be filmed so you don't have to worry about being captured on the camera. These chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum at which they will be housed. I have a few questions for my esteemed guests, my personal friend, that I met in Cape Town, South Africa in 2009. Yaku Lawrence. Thank you. Okay. Big hand for Yaku. Thank you. Hold on one second. I got something out of order. Sorry. Alright let's start right at the beginning. Please tell us a bit about your family and the circumstances in which you grew up. I grew up in New Coastal South Africa. I was born in Pretoria which is right next to Johannesburg and I was born in the heist of the struggle against apartheid which means obviously all races were separated. My upbringing was poor but quite very loving, very church-going so freedom and since we this is conferences based on freedom I didn't really have the freedom that I really wanted. So as a child I was forced to to obey rules and or guess what you you turn a little child that when your mom says no it means no and she beats the living crap out of you which is not necessarily a bad thing but you grow up very marginalized and in some sort of a way. My family I come I and the bastard of the family I have a step-brother and a step-father and yeah it's a couple of family that you they demand respect but yet you were put in your place very quickly and as as I grow up I realize what my identity was and how I became the man I am today. Well for the benefit of the audience would you depict for us the apartheid that you experienced growing up because I suspect that many people here are unfamiliar with that system. As I said segregation was probably the word of the time. Other than our lovely maid who came to Keena House once a week I haven't met any people of persons of color. It was a child you didn't know any better you grew up and that was your your lifestyle. I met our gardener son called Tabu and I didn't see color as a child and I just saw someone to play with so apartheid for me was was it was a horrible time. I learned in technical college that people there are the people out there there are other than just black or white or Indian they are mixed people of mixed race and later later on I find out that I'm of mixed race I'm of Afrikaans I'm half Dutch I'm half German I'm of Italian I want more of a diversity can you get. So apartheid for me means a very repressive I'm I could never see South Africa going back to that and for anyone in the world I would hate to see people living under those conditions because information was helped with the health from you. I found out who Nelson Mandela was through my my preacher from church and the first words out of his mouth was word this is gonna cost you. How can I look up to someone who is a preacher of your church and then he explained to me who Nelson Mandela is and he said he's a terrorist he killed white people so he's a bad man so you learn to live under those conditions and those I lived in a bubble and we thought that bubble was perfect and then apartheid was abolished. Life became better. You depicted yourself as a rebel. How so? Oh that's a long story. As I said I I've always had a problem with authority that's why I could never be a lot of them again ever. My family my mother was the head of the matriarch of the family she what she said was law and if you didn't obey to her law she would beat the crap out of you which I think in the long run turned me into the man with principles I am today. The rebel part came in when I was told not to associate with person over here because of his or her gender or because of his or her color and I felt that I needed and I wanted the right to choose. Now if you take someone's right away to choose more more than likely they will become a rebel they will become obstinate and that's that's what I became alive. I feel it's important that most of the time I have my own way which is just good that's why I have poison slaves but the rebel part came when I need to stand up in my own right. I need to stand up for other people's rights if they can't stand up. I believe that being the rebel to get things done you're not always the hero you are more than likely the rebel and I'm happy to play the rebel against Batman. Well when we were preparing for this chat you told me that when you were growing up you didn't like other boys you liked their dads would you please explain that for the audience? Well I've always been attracted to all the men. I don't make an excuse for it. I've always said that everyone we all have our choices. You make your choice there's something with inside you that you like and you enjoy. I like all the guys I don't like them for their money I don't like them because what they offer me I like them because it's me I can't go against the grey. We all find something beautiful in a person we're all different each of one of each one of you are unique and you have unique fetishes and what you find attractive. I realized that I like people my friends fathers or dads but I was in high school when I dated a dad and his son was in my class so yes. Please tell us about your introduction to kink and leather. This is a good one. I was eight years old and my uncle brought himself a new motorbike I was I remember being on sitting on the carpet on the floor and I heard this motorbike arrive and I had to study and he walked in and I saw this mess of a man who I thought was nice I couldn't tell you what nice was I just knew I liked him. He was eight years old and he took his leather jacket he dropped it down and the first initial experience I had to smell I smelled the leather I smelled the sweat still today smells are very important to me. I tried to pick the jacket up and wear it and it was so heavy that I thought how amazing and how powerful is this man that he can wear a jacket so heavy and it smells so good that's how I started that's how I started liking leather and I looked at him with the door in eyes how can this powerful bearded man be so be so sexy and as I said that the the most important thing for me is smell a little bit of leather and I still do today. You've said you even mentioned this in your speech last night that you have no choice to remain HIV negative would you please explain why you have no choice why did you not have that choice. I must tell you I just want to quickly jump back sure when I became a time holder in South Africa I had an interview because I'm the person as I never I had the first interview with the lady and she said to me you know you are a someone that other people can look up to you just don't tell me and I looked at her and I said well guess what honey I am and going back to how I say I didn't have a choice when the before just before South Africa is literally about 10 years you have they'll invent something and it'll filter through and get this out of Africa. By the time the age crisis happened in San Francisco and in the states we knew there was a gay disease we didn't know what it was I remember a friend of mine asked me have you been to your gay test and I mean honey I know I'm gay but I didn't know there was a test for it I thought the test was in the back room a couple years ago the test was HIV and I didn't know what it was called. The education we had in school the very little sexual education we had in school was focused on heterosexuality. I was told to use a condom as not to get a gold brain that's not going to happen with me I'm not integral I love gold but I'm not going to have sex with them so it might be ignorance and stupidity on my side but I met and had sex without a condom and that's something I live with every day of my life because I live with HIV then when it's when a time came for me to have my HIV test I really thought that the people who were supposed to be in charge and teach me taught us about sexual sex education and STD STIs they never really did their job because they didn't want to talk about people being queer people being gay it was just focused on heterosexuality and therefore condom for me was was a pie trick I would pull them up and chuck them at moving you know that that fits me as a kid how was South Africa impacted by the AIDS crisis it happened very quickly my partner who is now 67 has been HIV positive for 28 years he if he was here he could tell you more for me as a person as as me living with HIV it happened also quickly all of a sudden there were people being infected with HIV AIDS people dying I I know he infected my partner he passed away five years later it happened really quickly and it happened I think because we watch America as a nation we look up to America for as I said technology and everything else and also with health I saw the impact that's the age crisis did and I saw the discussions that HIV AIDS is not just a gay disease it became a heterosexual that's what you well it became a disease across the board so it wasn't just for gay people and the impact very quickly happened when heterosexual people of color especially in our Zulu community they go into HIV and for them as a culture homosexuality is a big no no so how can they get HIV AIDS if it's a gay disease so it became very quickly that hang on people this is not just a gay disease this is a disease across the community and the government realized very quickly we losing our work we losing our parents I personally started at an HIV AIDS organization called Divanani AIDS project because I realized our domestic lady her husband died of AIDS she has to care for other people and we have AIDS so Africa had to react the world came together with concerts what held up with concerts and we made and we still have a problem with HIV people are still eating my husband's a Catholic and I don't hold it against it they don't believe in condoms so I have a problem with this if people are dying on the streets at least prevent this from happening it's too late for me let's back up one step you mentioned losing your first partner Andre please tell us about that you were young with that happen how did that affect you okay I met Andre and father love you know you meet your first love of your life and he he was a very strong group of a bear and I met him and I'm lonely I infected them with HIV and that's what under the bridge we decided to go for an HIV test and I knew before we went I was positive because of things what happened with me how did it impact me I grew up instantly I was my birthday is 9 11 which is a terrible time my Andre died on 9 11 he died on my birthday and instantly I grew up I felt because he was always the the caregiver he was always the one who said I'm gonna pay the bills you hand your money to me and I will I was the boy in the relationship and all of a sudden there is this big group of a man who gets reduced to do nothing and he passes all of a sudden life become very real and that's why I am so passionate about caring for people passing on that energy of care to other people so I literally grew up within a couple months we see a man wasting away going in a slightly different direction at this point you were the very first mr. South African leather how did that contest come about how did you come to be in that position I heard of a recon most people are only fun and my profile stays on kinky and together this is who I am and for South Africans in the internet became a solace we don't have we didn't and we still don't have the communities that you don't have so for us internet as a blessing and occurs so excuse me I received the phone from a guy called Jamie Myra who is an ex-American and I got a phone call saying hey there's a contest in Johannesburg which is across South Africa and you said I think you should enter I said mr. Myra thank you that is my first reaction and he called the week later and said listen I really want you to enter and I said well you convinced me why I should enter he said to me you're a you like leather you like kink I think you'll be a good candidate and I said Jamie but then I didn't call mr. Myra Jamie Jamie thank you but I'm in Cape Town this is rivalry between Cape Town kept on use in Johannes people from Johannesburg and I said how if I become mr. S.A. there the hawker I be the head of all the front of a an organization in Johannesburg but it's a national living think about it he called me back and by then I spoke to my husband what what does he think and I respect his judgment he said to me I have thought about it you will win the contest I think you should enter and I did I went up to Johannesburg now you have to you have to bear in mind that South Africa has never had a contest I thought it was a beauty pageant yes but we all know what I and I look about and I researched the hell out of my keywords were leather contests leatherman competitions and hello and behold I won the contest we were nine people I was chosen I was given a sash and I have absolutely nothing what to do with this what I do I have no one to pull back on to I subsequently met you in Cape Town and I remember on the Friday I asked every single possible question and you can you can imagine I asked Doug the gracious man himself we shared many beers and he told me exactly what his version of being there and I knew that there's a contest I've heard about the contest called I know I wasn't even told at my contest I would participate globally there wasn't even mention well until you mentioned it to me so there goes Google again instead of the other contest now it's I am now now it is international competition and I remember sitting with my husband because of the time of difference I knew I am now was going to take place and I said to her my partner I said guess what the Mr. Jeffrey Payne one I am also wonderful he looks hot he looks good I wonder if I will be able to speak to her not lying to you three hours later I get an email from Mr. Jeffrey Payne saying congratulations on your time I'm a South African who am I yes mr. I know congratulating me for a travel so tell us a little bit about how the South African letter scene is evolving if you will ask me this question in December last year I will say very slowly before December 2013 we were just a gay or bi male organization I have always believed that leather exceeds boundaries race gender passages and I took me three years excuse me to be three years to open up and to change people's minds in the Constitution so before December we were just standing still we had two title holders two title holders of which and I'm very proud to say of all three years we competed at IML with all which top ten which I feel is very good as a young community with our jobs so moving on from December we've opened up our memberships we now include ladies we have trans gendered people in our community as a bit of a shock to the system so the Africans and I'll revert that to apartheid are still they live with blinkers on they still not accepting of anyone that is strange that is different they are afraid of what's the unknown and I've managed now to as a chairman of South Africa yes I did the South Africa change people's perceptions of mine and open up the community so I think we are evolving we are listening and watching what other countries do I believe when I've always said that South Africans are great copycats we look and we listen and we do and sometimes we include so we are doing better we we are getting the word out there that is not just what's in your pants that makes a difference it's what's in your heart that makes a difference I forgot where did you place it IML your year as David said to me defense partners you have all the glory and none of the responsibility I place for and to me it was a it was a shock my goal was placed up to a human my partner said to me I know you when I am essay later competition I can see it I he sees it then I went to him and I said okay I've won this competition I'm preparing for IML where do you see me place and he said to me you're not gonna win how do you feel about that I said I'm okay I'm gonna meet people from different backgrounds another country I get the chance to travel again this is gonna be bigger than the purpose and I remember standing in line as we all do in IML and my name is called Dr. Lee and I walked up and I remember clearly saying thank you to the hearing-care audience stood there and I started crying because I just reach my goal I didn't I didn't care about where I'm gonna place from here I spent a speech which it's if you've met if you think if you prefer a tiger holder you know exactly what I'm talking about we went backstage everyone was texting that they they made talk to me because of the time difference I tested texted a couple of people I woke them up at four o'clock in the morning saying they were not so happy and one of my IML brothers told me the port came up and he said to me you have a look at property on you I go I'm happy and I delivered my speech the next day and then I didn't place I knew I wasn't going to place but the next day when you got that you're in the level you've got your placing you're your editor replacing after the interviews I placed second in the world after the final contest I was fourth it was a shock and I don't think I could speak to someone for the next 20 minutes I was in tears I was really in tears. Tell us some of your biggest impressions about IML and also here at Leather Leadership Conference what are your thoughts about Philadelphia and the senior experience here? I have one word to say and it's it's a unity. I'm dreading going back home because I don't find badly like this back home. Here is people from all Crete all sectors of the community working towards one single goal. I'm very often tell people I would love to have a home tattoo right there not because of my own heart because of what Leather Community really says. IML is we were 52 contestants I keep in touch with at least 90% of those people. This is my first time at LLC Philadelphia has been unbelievable. The people from Chicago are going to kill me when I see this. I thought Chicago was my favorite city. Philadelphia is quickly taking over. I am I enjoy the unity the friendship really is for five seconds for this for five years it's something that you can't explain to someone and the more you try to explain it the more people just go I don't get it. I wish I could take my community and breathe in here for one weekend and let them learn. I bet you we will have a different Leather Community back home so all I can say to you is IML, LLC these are the two big events that I've been involved with is one with unity. Yes there are switching and in all communities there are people who don't agree with stuff but eventually we all stand around the same fire singing the same song. Have you visited other communities outside the US for example in Europe? Yes I have. I've been to Europe last but I've been at different clubs. I've been taught that I'm too American. Is there such thing? Because I associate with the Leather for me is more American. America has IML. It's an institution. I go to Britain or I go to Germany and I find a whole different community. Now we all don't have to be the same. It's our differences that make us unique and special. But I would always come back to America. I would always like to know that and I know I have a family. I have family whether they are at a phone call or an email away or a Skype message away. I know that I'm welcome and I'm accepted. This is a special trip for you here in the States at this time because in two weeks you will be judging Insul. What are your thoughts on that? I've been warned by several ladies that they have bottles of Gagermeister on tablets. I'm honored to be one of the judges for Insul. I'm the first South African to judge international contest of such magnitude. When I was asked I said yes. It took me less than 0.4 seconds. It's going to be an amazing trip. I'm not just going judging. I'm learning because as I told you we've opened up our contest. Last night we've reached $2,400. And that purely goes to send our very first Miss S.I. Leather to Insul next year. So I'm learning. I'm going to go to Insul, Sharon has promised me in her meeting that she's going to sit there and she's going to explain to me exactly not just the judging but the preparing for Insul. So I'm going there by judging and I'm honored and happy and related. But I'm learning. To me it's going to be a learning trip and I'm taking that back. When are you having your contest in South Africa? We will have it during, I forgot the exact date, Randy you're going to kill me. It's around December 5th. We have a Leather and Lion store that Randy and Master Mike has organized. Our judges, it will be around the same time. Our judges will be out of five. Our judges three will be international judges which we are so honored to have. So we will have our first Miss S.I. Leather contest in our first Miss Leather contest. So it will be in the other centre. But then I wouldn't know enough to train our title holder of male and female for our contest. So it will be in the centre. What's the interest in South Africa? Are you seeing a lot of women that are interested in being part of this? The people that I've been talking to, ladies that I've been speaking to, are very interested. They know my history, the road that I've walked. I've had about four days so I'm really interested. I think honestly two of those ladies stand a very good chance to make South Africa proud. They're eager to learn. And I'm happy to say most, a lot of people in South Africa think Leather is a gay-based organisation. I strongly feel that I'm not going to judge, I'm not going to be the producer, that I feel that our lady will be an intersexual lady who writes bigger motorbikes than most guys. Let's take it to a slightly lighter note at the moment. What are your favourite activities, your favourite kinks? Really? On camera? On many cameras. Let's see. I like showers. You know those long showers. Showers, I love bondage. I started off as a boy. I thought that as a younger man, because I like dead ends, I had to be the bottom. So I was tied up a lot. I was pissed on a lot. I wasn't too much for being the bottom sexually. I voice it to people, I'm not a side-screen. If you can fit them in my mouth, it's good enough. I do enjoy ballplay a lot. I think that my mind is my biggest sex organ. I think that's my favourite. I flag a couple of colours. But I would say if I had to choose, and this is going to shock many of you, it's romantic kissing with my husband. Here we go. Who was Nelson Mandela to you? I told you earlier that I had a preacher who would help our family when I had some sexual problems with my sexuality. He was asked to come and test us. All he wanted to do was to pray the gay away. So when I said this in my keynote speech last night, this white ended the ribbon and asked us to switch on the television. And there's this presenter saying, Nelson Mandela will be released from prison soon. I had absolutely no clue who Nelson Mandela was. No clue whatsoever. The government kept this away from most people. I was a kid at the time. It kept it away from the news. So I looked at him and I said, well, who is Nelson Mandela? And he gave me these descriptions. For me, Nelson Mandela was and still is someone who teaches me that I shouldn't hate someone. We had a little discussion earlier about in a minority, in a minority, in a minority. How dare I discriminate against someone because of their color, because of their gender, because of their fetishes. For me, he represents complete humility. There was a man who was in jail for 27 years. And guess what? That didn't change why people went into the sea as people learned to believe. There's a man who said to his jailers, I forgive you. I'm sure we've all helped judges. I haven't helped judges against people, because I've done x, y, y. There's a man who said to his jailers, that's okay, I forgive you. And he led from example. I look at him and look at this at Madiba, as we call it back home. Madiba is a man who sits up after freedom. Faces of freedom. That's why I keep on stressing, he is my face of freedom. Because of that man, I had married my husband. Because of that man, I don't have to sit on this side of the street and say Europeans only. Because of that man, I can hug and kiss a person who is not from my family. I remember meeting someone who we had a little fling in the bathroom. The public bathroom was there. And I walked out and he was up cover. And I walked out and I thought, I'm going to be arrested twice for what I've just done. And he joined me, he said to me, oh, are you still here? I said, did you realize we can get arrested for this? Not once, twice. Because we couldn't be homosexual and I couldn't cross the Bacabra area. And that was so funny. That was a good thing. So for me, Nelson Mandela gave me freedom. And I will be forever grateful. What's the biggest misconception about you? This is a tough one. I wish my husband was here today. Quite honestly, and I'll be very honest, because he will see this eventually, I asked him the question and he said, no, no, you need to answer it yourself. And honestly, I didn't know. I'll tell you what he told me. People think I'm a fabulous cook. People think I am the best cook possible. I can make the best curry. And you want to know why? When we have people around, I am the host, because I'm the head of my family. I stand there, I greet people, I say, come in, I am the host. I entertain everyone, but he does the cooking. And they say to me, oh, fabulous meal. Thank you. And I'll go to my husband and I'll go, honey. I did great, didn't I? So people think I'm a very good cook. It's not me. I can do breakfast, I'm fabulous in bed, but I can't cook. If you could change anything at all about your leather journey or your current leather world, what would you change? Besides solving World Hunger by Tuesday, what would I change? A question. Or would you change anything? I would always want to change things. I believe change is good. Change is something that scares people. Change is something that tests people and demand thinking. I would like to see change in the form of it'd be nice to want another person. And this is not a role-play speech. I'm not awful there. But seriously, back home and you people back home can see this on YouTube. I'm seen as a villain because I make certain choices. I make certain stand about certain things. And I do things for the greater of the community. Not for me, not to benefit myself. I want to pass that. I've got what I want. I've got a wonderful family. I don't need to put someone down to make myself, to make me feel better. So I'd like to start by saying to Mr. X or Mrs. X stop bullshitting each other. Enjoy each other's company and respect. There are simple little words at what we have. And we tend to stare at ourselves in mirrors and not thinking or not approaching the next person. Say, you know what, I understand your trouble and I understand that you can accept me for who I am. And let's talk to one another. Let's just engage more. You all please mind to use that. How did you know to transition or what did you feel key to transition from toy to man or server? As I told you, I started having interest in men at a very early age and I thought that it was normal for a younger boy who was interested in an older man to be the bottom. When I came to my journey, you expected to be the bottom. And I had a daddy in when I grew up, I was around 24 who would tie me up and I would be dominated but very inexperienced. I never care and at the time, you relied on books on limited VHS. So there was a medium. Those were the days before Internet. And obviously people would pass on to him, pass on to me and he would tie me up and it would be a fun game to get out of the bondage. And then one day, I realized I'm getting involved with this. So I said to him, what if I get out of my bondage and I tie you up and I go out of the bondage and I tie him up. And then it became a role-play and it was fun but then that became boring because I realized that the older I get, I didn't have to be a bottom for someone. For me, transitioning into from a bottom boy into his top partner within six months. And I realized that I could dominate an old man and that became extraordinary. And it's still today. I get off on dominating someone taller, bigger and older than me. It's a sense of power and I guess with a lot of different play and with a lot of different your kids. It's power exchange. But when I became a soap, this same daddy one day said to me, you should become another monster. And I said, I have no good help. And I did research and I had a discussion with some of that at home quite recently. Oh, very nice leather hat you have. And I reasoned to explain this is not just a hat I'm wearing. Obviously not tonight. But this is not just a leather hat. This is not just something I'm wearing to make myself look pretty. He told me what a cover is. What is the history? How do you earn it? And I felt I earned my cover and my daddy presented it to me. Wonderful. And I was taught how to wear it how to remove it what the significance is. And with my travels I live and learn all the time. And the most important thing that my cover means to me and becoming a server is respect. I respect my slaves, I respect my boys and I demand respect back. And also the fact that I put a cover on my head and I walk down the street or I walk into a dungeon that doesn't give me a ticket to be an asshole. That is respect. So to answer your question I took a long time for me to transition because I didn't understand all that much. I didn't understand the history and culture but it came in time and there was one day when I looked at my husband who was my slave at the time and I said to him I think finally I can call myself a master. And he said well why do you say that? I said because I can do everything in our bedroom beyond a closed door and I can love you at the same time and I respect you and I'll give you home and that way. So by him accepting me as a server with my cover is not because of that. Then it's faster. I have another question. Do you want this on camera? On camera? This is a leadership question. Curious as to what is it about what is it about your experience as a Leatherman from South Africa you could teach us here in the States as a Leatherman or as a Leather sir Danny. Fantastic. At the discussion panel we had a similar question and we had Nigel who was British we had Master who was Canadian and two other Leathermen from Canada What can I teach you? My answer to them was I'm busy being taught because your history has you have more history in your culture and in your clubs than I can ever imagine to be. If there's something that I can teach you is hmm be nice don't discriminate just because you think you've got to give it to people because you're not real special we're all individual I'm a hugger I'm a kisser give that energy share energy I have kissed so many people this weekend I've had so many people just be nice we don't need there's enough trouble in the world and I'm not going to solve World Peace again by Tuesday I've done that already okay now by Wednesday just be nice to people just accept and accept yourself I had to learn to accept myself a long time ago and it took me quite a while to accept myself then you can't share love to anyone else out there so accept yourself and it'll be nice to people more questions do you want this on or off camera I want this on camera okay I don't have a microphone actually I think shout it out you may want to repeat it for the camera your experience with a boot flag in the United States what is your experience with boot lagging or shoe shining or equivalent in South Africa my experience with boot lagging at the LLC in America bad current people have no clue what the boot lag is they probably think it's a derogatory term they have no concept Leslie I was very fortunate that Leslie gave me and I'm going to put this on camera Leslie besides working her ass off at IML gave me my first proper boot lag session and in her class my experience is wonderful I've learned so much in your class I've ever learned to my life which I'm going to take forward you're going to be in South Africa in June it's special I'm a massage therapist I use hot stones to make people feel good I use hot stones to heal people these hands I believe I'm a healer that's why I touch people I make contact with people and Leslie did exactly I sat there looking down at my boot being going through the process I'm not ashamed to say that I was almost I was aroused by my work is done here I'm surveying and I've been aroused by this wonderful person showing her energy with my second skin and she explained to us exactly what she's doing how and why and it was just incredible I learned so much in that little time and as I said we all grow we all learn so besides the obvious arousal you made it magic on my boot so what did I learn that I'm learning more and as I said to you in the class I had a stupid idea I didn't even read Leatherman that all bootlegs are bottoms no they're not and I want to thank you for it because I feel alive I love you I'm going to have to have a lottery because that tournament gets wild why don't we ask this I'm David I'm deaf myself and I was wondering about in South Africa if you've met any deaf in South Africa what's the letter? we we don't have many hearing and deaf people in our community I don't know of any deaf person who's into Leather I know people who are gay who would go to clubs and I would find it amusing and wonderful that they would dance to the music better than I could stay there next to a speaker and have perfect rhythm and then I'd go I can't dance like that but in another community unfortunately not we have a very small community it is really tiny I would be I would be lying if I say I do someone I can't lie but I do know general gay people who aren't there and who I have that contact with David is a Facebook friend of mine who is certainly amazing and I didn't say that to you but it's interesting for the whole community this gentleman's been like this like he's not knocked out of the camera to try to get up last time you mentioned some of the struggles that we faced in we faced with apartheid and anti homosexuality in Africa and in other places and I just wanted to ask you a question which is you might hear this from other people saying why do the struggles that are separated physically by continents and oceans even once philosophically by gender, color, race and all these other issues why are all these separated issues linked and what are the consequences of inaction from a leadership perspective a bit of human as my daddy said to me sorry the first thing is ignorance people have been kept separate because they were forced to at one point because of apartheid you were gay but you didn't tell your neighbor you're a family member so separation was a big thing if we don't if you don't reach out to someone next to you and you tell them exactly who you are that ignorance is going to grow it's like a line if you start with a little line that line is going to multiply and multiply and who knows where we might end up with crossing borders the internet surely has helped us cross many many borders and friendships and love and trust it's just how it gets done how we move forward from there again Nasa Mandela I can't hate someone because he's German and what happened with the Second World War just because I'm happy he's German I can't hate someone because they did something to me a while ago I was mugged in South Africa but I can't hate the mugger it's a question of circumstances so I think openness and conversation certainly helps a good time for about one or two more but what is the one thing that you would take from the time of the United States to implement in South Africa and what would be the one thing that you would want to implement in the United States the thing that I'm going to mean that I'm going to implement to people in South Africa that would like to now I'm going to is that there is a broader community out there there are people who don't care that you are South Africa don't care that you like to come agreement that reach out to the next person I'm taking my experience and I share it on to the next person are there some other members who have been to America who they are with the Philadelphia Prime and he has shared his view not just my view so it's a universal thing people need to learn that South Africans need to learn that this is happening in another country this is the bonds and family that gets created and shared around with other people what would I be here from South Africa to Cape Town Sunshine we have glorious weather there is very little I can teach I think I can teach people what you see is what she gets I think there are even more wonderful people that I can imagine to be even in this room there are people I look up to and there's nothing I can teach you so I'll bring the weather I hope your winter's up here you talked about the apartheid and you talked about freedom South Africa especially how the rights to marry women for the United States but sometimes we get complacent here in the United States and some countries get complacent so if we could give you anything back to take to your country for instance some of the complacency has been just recently within the last month a young gay boy was burned on the streets of Cape Town and we don't hear that so much in the United States and so therefore maybe we can give our support here in the United States and give you certain things to take back what would those be I'm very happy you said that boy Tom yes there was a man, a young man 21 years old in the prime of his life a beautiful boy who was literally set on fire because he's gay and he lives less than an hour away just four days before I left my trip I mentioned that in my keynote what can you guys bring for us as support know that we can reach out to all of you and say we are a community in need my job as a boy has been a little activist and I will just quickly say something Nelson that is his full name what he means little troublemaker that is his middle name I've always been called the troublemaker and I believe to make the trouble I get the word out there so my job as nativist as the front man for South Africa my job is to tell people about it it's fortunate to I am fortunate to be here today and share with you my story and what happens that way if I didn't tell you about this 19 year old boy 21 year old boy who was burnt alive you wouldn't know about this so it's a two way street we all need to work together it doesn't matter who you're from it doesn't matter what community you're from or what country you're from we all have needs half of the half of the states in America have homosexual marriages we all need to work together and I believe there is a way and we can do this possible one more question last one last year can you hear me last year when Sir James came to visit he went back home he initiated a pen pal group for women in South Africa just with women in the United States is that something that you would be willing to initiate for additional trans men leather men of South Africa I have worked with I have been working with James on that I share his value his knowledge and his passionate drive his most passionate German man that I've known in a long time definitely I do believe that I have my own ways in reaching out to people we all have different platforms we all have different visions James and I have sat together and we discussed this and we have a clear view of where we want to go with this South Africa's community place them for one weekend at one of these conferences we will move mountains because people back home have no clue how amazing this is and how accepting aren't South Africans sitting into this how accepting and valued I feel being in your community thank you