 Good evening everybody, welcome to the Private Property Farming Podcast. My name is Mbadi Moko, once again your host every Tuesdays and Thursdays on the Private Property Farming Podcast. Thank you for choosing us this evening and for constantly following the Farming Podcast. We see your tweets, we see your retweets, we see your Instagram likes, your Instastory shares and it's been so fantastic engaging with you on social media and also just to hear feedback from all the viewers at home just telling us about how great the podcast is and the information that you're learning around farming, agribusiness and all good things to do with agriculture. Today we have a hydroponic and greenhouse experts and we're going to be speaking about agricultural sustainability developments. What does sustainability mean in farming? How can farmers really grow their farms using sustainability in their production methods but also making a profit because everybody wants to make a profit when you invest in a business such as farming and so today we have none other than Johann van den Bosch who is a hydroponic and greenhouse experts and we're going to be unpacking sustainability, hydroponics as well as greenhouse farming all under the umbrella of agricultural sustainability developments. Johann, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing? Thank you Barley. Thanks for inviting me to this. Yeah, I'm good. That's good. It's great to see you once again. So Johann, I know you a bit about your background but for those at home who have never met you and have never heard about Johann, please just maybe tell us who you are and give us a brief background on your experience in the agricultural sector. Yeah, thank you Barley. Yeah, I was a youngster when I started to farm, I was 22 years old and I had a vision and started to farming in tunnels in the ground and we had a vision and saying okay we wanted to be an expert in what we're doing and we're starting to planting the fancy lettuce, specialized lettuce and starting to supplying wood and the other retails like pick and pay and spar and fresh mark and yeah and then we decide to in our journey of 10 years we decide to starting to growing a hydroponic and seeing if we can bring in the growing time of the product quicker, putting more crop on the square meter and see in what way we can be more sustainable to supply retail. So we started to the NFT system where we're planting lettuce and cactus where we literally score a week of growth, so a week quicker on hydroponics versus ground growth and then obviously undercover protection and a retail like Woolwood's always liked it because they show a product on the shelf and they don't have an issue with nature what is I think believe the farmers biggest enemy currently where global warming is a reality where we literally protect and make sure we can growing quicker a better product and we are sustainable there and nature are not attacked us yes you have always nature it can be an issue but you minimize your nature effect on your farm and yeah and I must say over the years over 20 years of experience and then growing I believe that you have to take nature out of it and it's coming obviously with a price and we learn a lot it's not easy to change your farming operation from ground to hydroponics but the moment if you get it right and you have the basics right and you have your market right and you can get every day on the market so that the sustainability side yes then I think that is the way to go. Yeah Johan I'm curious to know is you know when we all know that there's things like climate change and you know with that you know these new terms like sustainability intensive farming organic farming has obviously come into the fall when agriculture is concerned but is hydroponic farming the best solution you know to meet sustainability goals can a farmer still be sustainable if they are producing directly onto the soil or do they need to farm hydroponically? Okay I think I think the first thing that we have to realize and then we have to make sure about is that not every crop you can grow hydroponically okay I think that that's the thing that we have to make sure on so don't come in and saying you want to plant a carrot or a potato in hydroponics I mean it's not going to work but if you're going to your tomatoes peppers jalapenos that kind of crops yes I think if the moment if you can measure what you add and what is in your environment the better you have a maximum production out of your plant the moment if you're planting in ground and you don't know what is the ground doing because a ground culture is acting the way you want to act and you can't control it as a farmer you will never getting the maximum out of your plant the hydroponic side of farming is monocropping where if you're going in soil you have to do incorporation now I mean crop rotation and crop rotation is a big thing you can't say on grown grow that you're growing tomatoes and you're going for argument sakes you're growing a lettuce and thinking you're doing crop rotation it's not going to work but you have to giving that time like a five six year time before you're coming back with tomatoes yes you can planting tomatoes after tomatoes after tomatoes but somewhere along the line in the five six seven eight year time you will getting you will start to eat problems in in your soil and and you're getting weaker soil your soil is not strong enough you don't have production you get pest and and fungus in your in your in your in your production then getting your kilos off and then you're not sustainable it's all about getting the maximum per square meter and hydroponics you can do that because you add exactly the amount of fertilizer exactly the amount of water what that specific plant needed and then you can get running talk and and and and and and and make sure you getting your yield of per per square meter and I think they wear hydroponics coming in but you have to make sure there's different hydroponics for different crops you taste different crops but you can't planting an hydroponics and that is I think the two things that you have to make sure right you mentioned that you found on nft hydrosystems and that's one form of hydroponic farming and then we all know that there's also the hydroponic farming in growing bags you know using sawdust using cocoa peas and typically or generally what we use what we typically see in South Africa is that farmers growing in bags are growing in green houses etc so it's a lot of investment yes we want to be sustainable we want to maximize the yield per square meter but what do you say to farmers who say Johan but I've been farming in bags where they sawdust the cocoa peas year after year I'm trying to maximize my square meter as possible in my tunnel but costs are going up you know one year the cocoa pea to the core sawdust costs x the following year it costs y but you know my tomato prices at the end of the day are still the same so like how do farmers manage this battle but at the same time trying to be sustainable and efficient and also just maybe make a profit at the end of the day okay I think there's a couple of answers here okay the first the first of all is are you big enough in that way there's an economical scale and it's in every crop so the moment if you don't supply in any months of the year you have a challenge so you have to supply each and every month and while you're going to get it right if you scale and it's all about the economical scale if you and I'm telling you now I'm I'm seeing it every day and I see it in my own form you're not going to make money in a 5000 square meter greenhouse you're not going to make money yes you're going to make money but your upgrade is going to to play with to pay you still are so that things are still around so you can't stop s comments and all right I don't want to uh paying electricity it's not working like it so it's the one thing is scale the second thing is nature again so if you can control nature in that specific greenhouse then your your chance for sustainability is is is is is more than without because the market uh the the the the the the the the the the big farmers on that side tomatoes getting let's say eight and a half kilos per plant if you're getting six and a half kilos per plant meaning you're not doing anything right because you go you have to go to eight kilos of eight and a half kilos per plant so that is that the yield per square meter is so important in the in a greenhouse environment because you're paying per square meter to put that thing up so you have an income per square meter you're paying for that infrastructure where if you're going outland and then by planting outside but that costs you nothing so if you have to throw away a better outside land no nobody is going to bother but an infrastructure greenhouse hydroponic you can't throw in anything right you have to running the maximum maximum yield out of it you mentioned scale uh and you said five five five thousand square meters greenhouse you're not growing anywhere um so what is the solution at at at how many greenhouses or how many square meters does one maybe reach an equilibrium or a break even and or let's say for there could be a part a farming podcast listener who is thinking i want to make investments in greenhouses maybe to farm tomatoes cucumbers or peppers for example how many tunnels maybe should i need to start off with if he or she is listening to you right now and heard five thousand square meters is not much so how many plus minus tunnels does one need to start off with especially when the target is to meet the yield per square meter okay it is it is also depends on what crop you're growing yes if i if i going back to to to my my operation i didn't grow or i didn't start with a 10 10 10 uh tunnels of 20 tunnels i'm starting with a with a five tunnel operation and i growing to a certain point okay so so you must all you can't you i always saying to the guys please don't starting with an actor of two actors operation because you have to getting in that operation you have to doing the management you have to make sure things are running you have to make sure your crop has been market bill is there's a market for it there's a there's a client for this so so i always saying starting with a five thousand square meter but my end goal is a six actor and you putting every year another five thousand of another actor up depends on how quick you're growing so that is very important that you're going to understand that your first year of your first two years you're going to burn money and you have to make sure you have a source of money to pulling you through to make sure that the money you make out of the greenhouse you invest back and starting to growing the business then you're growing the business as as an infrastructure but you're also growing your management to a certain point so and that is what i would try to say is that um that yes there is obviously like tomatoes i'm telling you now from one to eight years you're starting to make money because now you've been 52 weeks a year in production because you schedule your your plantings so so and then on that size you can schedule your planting but that's all depends what is your market obviously with currently tomato prices and i mean the tomato prices was high from from january yes obviously that that that the reach of scale is going to be quick but i mean what is going to happen next year we don't know what's going to happen the year after that we don't know so it all depends on what is your market what is the maximum price you can get it out of it and then see how quick you can get it up to scale i mean i started with five tunnels i ending up with 136 tunnels but it's coming over a period of 10 years it's not coming in the first year and that is how you have to see that yeah speaking about markets and speaking about revenues when one is making an investment in a greenhouse in hydroponic structures what should come first you know so let's say i had for example 10 million right now to invest in greenhouse and put hydroponics before i invest into that what should i what should come first do i go speak to the market and figure out what does the market want and then also maybe do i go speak to maybe an agronomist or an expert like yourself to help me to say if you've got this 10 million for example make an investment of x amount of tunnels because this can obviously generate revenue and then from there you grow so do we start with the market do we start with the expertise or do we go straight and investing in the infrastructure and then you come back to the market and agronomy or technical expertise like you have shown or displayed this evening now i think that the big thing is first crop what you wanted to grow then according to the crop the infrastructure because if you have in your blood you wanted to plant carrots you don't need the infrastructure you want just a pivot maybe okay beetroot cabbage that kind of thing but if you wanted to decide to plant lettuce obviously you're going to do to an agata system no no need to plant it in bags because you again you wanted to get a maximum per square meter so first is what you wanted to grow obviously you're going to do a bit of market research and seeing what is needed in your in your community maybe maybe you're in lempopo far north or somewhere in mumpumalanga far that side and see what is that what is your community needed and what is your transport cost going to jubik market because obviously gauteng is the offtake but obviously you must also see what climate you have so that no need for you to thinking you growing to put you growing argument say close in lempopo or let's say close to polyquana and you're going to putting a greenhouse up there for tomatoes where zz2 can do it open lands so now you have to compete with zz2 and your infrastructure so your kilo price to grow tomatoes is going to be higher than going to be at zz2 so you will be always out of the market so it is depends on crop infrastructure and climate i mean i getting a going to a place in heidelberg for argument sikes and i wanted to there's a mice grower and he wanted to invest in in in in veggies and the first thing what i was telling to them i want your i want the temperature logger on your form and i wanted to see what is your minimum temperature what is your maximum temperature when i saw his minimum temperature turning at minus 60 i just telling him don't invest in a veggie tunnel because your energy cost to heat that tunnel in winter you you're going to be outpriced yourself so i always saying what is the clean climate in your area to make a decision what crop to grow to make a decision what infrastructure you need and if you get that right then you are sustainable then you so that's why in heidelberg going to do he's going to plant pecanut he's not going to doing so we convince him to say but what planting pecanuts or apples of cherries because the the cool unit is good enough for that so now he's not going to put any infrastructure he's going to putting infrastructure above its trees but not on his not on a on a greenhouse or something like that and that is what we have to look of we we that's very important in anyone who's listening to us please make sure what climate don't challenge climate don't challenge nature you're not going to get it right absolutely and so for the farmers that are maybe listening who are based in case it in northwest um and let's say maybe limbo or you know some of the warmer regions where we're like so let me take case it in out okay let's talk about the warmer region areas right because our areas where it gets extremely hot to take limbo for example and you know infrastructure like greenhouses sometimes is not necessary so for the farmers who are listening are thinking i'm in a very hot climate my temperature during winter and summer is still hot as compared to johannesburg or the high fowl region and they're hearing us talking about hydroponic farming in greenhouses and if they are in those regions how can they now farm sustainably you know do they invest in shade net structures or maybe just do they just farm an open crop that is best for their climate but you know they could be hearing sustainability and thinking sustainability means hydroponic so i think the question that i'm trying to ask is for farmers in warmer areas how can they practice sustainability if they are doing open field farming and not necessarily hydroponic or greenhouse farming that is very difficult to be honest because you can still can't control your your temperatures and you can still can't control your weather so obviously we don't like rain on our crops we don't like wind on our crops so there is ways that you can using a shade net structure and cover for that but obviously a shade net structure is not climate control so you have to dealing a bit with that climate but there is certain area in south africa where we where it's literally not worth it to plant any veggies so then you have to looking to something else like a avo or a mango or a macadamia nuts or that kind of thing so again i think i think there's a lot of farmers try to to challenge weather and saying okay weather is a problem here we go to putting an infrastructure up it's cost us a thousand renters square meter to put an infrastructure up but i never realize that hundred kilometers further that guy is doing it in the open land and his cost per product is so so it's very difficult and then and that is what i'm still trying to saying is that we have to make sure that you we plant the right crops in the right climate and not try to to to because the logistic in south africa is all over everywhere so i mean i started to supply wool woods in my early days and 20 years ago and we supplying wool woods right through the year from summer through winter if there was never a problem because the climate allowed us now wool woods is getting clever and it's not because they're clever they're all clever is that they say but you know what we're not going to getting other high field lettuce in in winter because the quality is not right that's moving that production to the middle field or to the low field and we're getting a good product on itself and so they realize also they have to move around so what are you as former going to do to make sure in winter production you can do something else a sub a soup greens or what a case to make sure that you can have an income in that so that's what i'm again climate you can't challenge climate yes in a greenhouse you can challenge climate but you must make sure that you're not putting a greenhouse somewhere up where the price not going to paying back that that infrastructure and that is that is very important to see that yeah as i'm listening to your hand i'm getting a bit nervous because i'm just thinking about my farm and i know that you know around mid-may or yeah the mid-may or the third week of may onwards you know that's where frost starts to kick in and then june july uh it gets quite cold as well as august and we really don't produce during that time because it's just so cold you can't produce anything so now i'm thinking i know that in those months we don't generate any revenue now probably thinking i need to explore what type of crop can grow in that period but you mentioned about markets and the retailer coming back to sustainability you know when a person is investing in a farm investing in structures having considered the climate the markets the landscape the logistics just where they are would you say for farmers when you're farming in greenhouse and hydroponic structures the best brand value for your crop would you get it from retail or would you get it from processors or would you get it from the first projects markets or would you get it from exports markets so under these casifications where should a farmer focus on in terms of market once they start farming under greenhouse hydroponically i'm going to say something and i think a lot of people don't going to like it but that is the reality i was a contract farmer my whole life and to be honest to be a contract farmer you don't have a business so that meaning if you're supplying on a contract and the shape must be that big and that high and that weight and what a case is you don't they going to dictate you the best way to farm currently is to farm for yourself for your own brand so you're starting to to develop your own brand there are other things and and and that's a reality i don't think uh south africa uptake on on produces is big enough with the economical situation in the country so the export you have to look to an export market and the export market you can only do if you are on scale and you can supply 52 weeks a year and that export market is really is a big market i'm busy with a couple of countries where i where i try to getting uh off takes and i'm telling the opportunity to export is a lot you must just open the doors but inland south africa as a country i think is going to be taking another five years before we have the covid situation under under control and the economic is growing again and then the prices is going to be getting and there's again a buying power currently we don't have a buying power so you have to be very smart to make sure yes it's nice to have a contract with a retailer or with a processor but i dictating you they're saying they want 500 kilos if there's no orders they're not taking your 500 kilos or they're taking your 500 kilos and they reject it because of a silly reason and you always bleeding on that so thinking about your own market and your own brand but you must understand you can't have a brand first and then product you might you need first product and then a brand and if you can get that right you well away and i can giving you a lot of samples in in in south africa what getting right when you're saying a brand you know for people that maybe might just not understand it's a product in a brand so meaning the product must be known by customers and be consistent and then you become a household name so if people would say i want your handpapers for example i want bali letters so it's about selling the letters unknown just people just say i like this specific letters grown by this farmer and then as you keep consistent people will then know that oh this is bali latest this is your hand latest is that correct yes and then the then it doesn't matter you supplying a retail of the fresh produced market that is all about you have to be there 365 days a year i'm not saying with the same amount of of product but still every day you'll be on that market and the market and the customers knowing exactly bali is sending letters that is the quality throughout the year that is that is the price and and and yeah and then you will see slowly but surely your brand is starting to grow oh thank you so much your hand force that's an insightful conversation this evening i wish we had much more time to discuss um you know around this topic i've definitely learned a lot and i must say you made me quite nervous because now it's like i must go back to the drink word with my phone just make sure that did i tick all the checklist you know um in everything that you've said but before i let you go your hand i just want to know what what's what the one piece of advice which you give to farmers um let's say those are really in production uh now that we're in a new season we're going to we're going towards the end of the year and you know people want to make a quick buck uh because you know december's around the corner what advice would you give to farmers right now who are currently in production maybe ending a specific cycle and putting in a new crop or just starting a new crop because you know it's a brand new season so what advice would you give to farmers currently that are in production yeah makes uh obviously the nature is always a challenge but make sure your your your quality is there don't dump uh second grade third grade on a market so make sure your quality is right and make sure you be every day there and not once a week or once a month and if you can get that right that a market agent can trust you that a customer other market agent can trust your product then you you well away then there's there's a future for farmers yeah thank you so much Johan thank you for your advice and your expertise this evening and it was lovely having you on to the show no it was a great pleasure I really enjoyed thanks a lot likewise thank you so much for watching everybody at home that was Johan Fundenbosch who's a hydroponic and greenhouse expert and he told us about different markets that you could explore what sustainability means and how you could address it whether you're farming in a monocrop or doing crop rotation he also sent uh gave us some gems about the the minimum square meters or greenhouses that you would need to use when you want to farm a specific crop let's say cucumbers tomatoes or peppers and how much of that infrastructure you would need to firstly make a profit and also it's all about climate working with climate because if you're trying to beat the weather you will never never win and so if you miss this conversation this evening please go on to the private property youtube channel click on the farming podcast playlist and you'll find episode 95 with Johan Fundenbosch agricultural sustainability developments that's the theme for tonight and you can watch our conversation which was about 30 minutes long and please feel free to drop comments we are willing to obviously respond to any burning questions that you have based on what we discussed tonight however that's it for me it's been in my area is raining so i hope um you know the farmers in various areas are happy that we're receiving rain but yeah thank you so much for watching and continue to support the podcast like share comment retweet reshare do whatever and spread the word around the farming podcast as far as possible because our intention here is to grow the agri industry and to educate you the aspirant farmer or the person wanting to go into the agriculture industry about what awaits when you come into the sector so that's it for me that's it for myself and Johan and we will see you next week Tuesday at 8 p.m with another awesome guest take care