 This is the 67th episode of Patterson in Pursuit. This week's interview comes from Panama City, Panama, where I had a conversation with a Catholic priest who's been practicing for 22 years. We talk about the basics of Catholicism, the purpose of the church, the necessity for faith, the status of the sacraments, what transubstantiation is all about, as well as several other topics. Catholicism is a very big deal in Latin America, so I want to figure out what it's all about. Hello my friends and welcome to another episode of Patterson in Pursuit. This week's episode is about a topic I know very little about, and that is Catholicism. I grew up in a Christian evangelical Protestant household and didn't learn very much about Catholicism, which means I'd like to start where I start every other topic at the very basics. One of the things I want to do with this show is not just interview a bunch of academics, world views exist outside of the academy, and I want to hear about them. Religious world views in particular are massively important in the world we live in, so I found too few people that'll just sit down and listen to what religious people or religious leaders have to say. Prior to any analysis or any judgment, you got to sit down and listen to the ideas themselves. So that's why I'm excited to be able to talk to a practicing Catholic priest whose beliefs are obviously impactful on the lives of many of those in his congregation. I was in Panama City, Panama last month, and was having a rather difficult time finding an English-speaking priest. But fortunately, since the Panamanian people are so nice, they went out of their way and led me down a series of phone calls and messages, and I got a hold of Father Oscar Martin. He's an English-speaking priest who's been practicing for more than two decades. His church is called Christ the Redeemer in San Miguelito, which is a little ways outside of Panama City, and they kindly met up with me in the most peculiar of places. I couldn't find a place that had good audio quality. Things were either too echoey on the inside or there was background noise, so I wound up going to the top of a rooftop that was about 20 stories up in the middle of Panama City, and I set up our little studio up there. It's not incredible audio quality, and as you'll hear, the wind was occasionally pretty loud, but I admire Oscar's boldness in accepting an invitation to meet a perfect stranger on the top of a rooftop half an hour away to have a conversation about Catholicism. That sounds like it could be the beginning of some kind of crime horror movie. The sponsor of this episode is an app that my wife and I are using pretty much every day. It's called 10% Happier, Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, and it's all about taking a rational approach to meditation. Before I had the conversations with both the Buddhists in Thailand and in Japan, I had a pretty skeptical view of meditation because most of the people that I had interacted with who were big on meditation were also kind of big on chakras and healing crystals, which I confess I don't have a particularly high opinion of. However, after I had those conversations, and I had some dialogue with some of you guys, I realized, wow, there's actually a lot of meat to meditation. If you can cut through the metaphysical nonsense, there's a practice here that can be immensely valuable, and it has been in a fairly short amount of time for both me and my wife. So if you guys want to try it out, don't take my word for it. You can get a free month's trial at steve-patterson.com slash meditate. Alright, so I hope you guys enjoy my conversation with the Panamanian priest, Father Oscar Martin. First of all, I want to thank you again for taking the time to come and speak with me. I know this was kind of spontaneous and we're talking on a rooftop, like not exactly an ordinary experience, but I really wanted to talk to a Catholic priest while I'm in Panama because Catholicism is so popular here, and it's kind of the theme of what I'm doing as I'm traveling. I just want to learn about basic ideas, basic religious ideas. So I want to talk to you a little bit about the basics of Catholicism and Christianity. So I come from the United States, and Protestant Christianity is fairly popular. It's kind of my background, how I was raised. I fell away from it a little bit, but I'm rediscovering religion, you might say. So I'm trying to piece things together. So just at a very basic level, what are some of the differences between evangelical Protestant Christianity and Catholicism? Well, when we have to talk about Christianity, we need to understand that from the very beginning, the Catholic Church understands that the foundation of the Church is because Jesus Christ wants a church. And when he starts with his apostles to do all around the place where there was, they get like a customer, like a way of doing things. It's not like, no, we're going to start the Church, no. Of his apostles gathering and doing what the Catholic Church used to do now. So from the very beginning, we was pointing on Peter, the apostles, like the head of the Church and this group that Jesus Christ had. And he pointed him, like the first one and the one who have to direct things. So we follow that situation. And that's why we have an apostolic foundation. So when you have to talk about different groups of Christians congregations, we usually not discuss doctrine but also follow that some congregations don't account the Pope like the one who they have to refer. Like each group has their own leader and they just don't follow the guidance and the unity that just one leader, like in the case of Pope or Saint Peter or in our case Pope Francis guide us. So he give us like this line that we understand we need to follow so we can became one Church. Also, for other congregations, we understand that Church not only have like an institution on earth, we also understand that Church have like a divine situations. The same way Jesus, we understand Jesus is human and also divine, the Church also have these situations. That's why people can achieve salvation through the Church. How we achieve salvation? There is where each Church try to form a way to get salvation. But when you are in the Catholic Church, salvation come through the sacraments that Jesus Christ through his Holy Spirit give his apostles to administrate to people. And what are the sacraments? Well, we have seven sacraments but the problem is not what is the sacrament. The problem is how many sacraments we have, that is not the problem. The problem is what is the sacrament. So, we understand that everything we do is a communication situation. The way you dress, the way you thought, the way you move, you always communicating things. So, signs, symbols have to do with some characters or situations that have a reference with other things that you don't see in a normal way. Like, when you drive a car and you see the red light, you actually see it as a red light. But you know that that red light means something else. That is dangerous so you need to do something because you see that red light. So, when you are talking about a symbol, it is almost the same thing but it is deeper because with a symbol like a flag, you just see a piece of material with colors on it. That is it. But when you understand what that kind of symbol means, you have to see also the people that relate it to a place and also to that symbol. So, then you tend to treat the flag, the material, like if you are treating a person. So, the same respect you give to other people, it is the same respect you give to their flag. And it is a piece of cloth. Yes. But it communicates something. It means something. In the sacrament, we have symbols and we have also signs that talk to us about God. Like, in the case of the sacrament of the Eucharist, we have this little bit of wine and this little piece of bread. That when it consecrates, it becomes for us the body and blood of Christ that gives us salvation. So, this element became the presence of God. So, the things that the food do to your normal body through faith also do it to your spiritual body. The spiritual situation. So, then I need to talk about why we understand that actually we have a different situation than our regular body. And then I have to make the questions. Do you know people who live without legs? Yes. Do you know people that live without their hands or arms? And those people who lose their arms or their legs, they forget their name. They have to change something in their personality. They still be there. They're still the same? The same. That's why we understand that some part is the body and some part is this other situation that human being have that don't be affected by the body. So, you eat food and you fill up energy in your body to do your normal process in your body. But also, we understand that there is a soul. And this soul also is a living being and it needs to be feed. So, is this soul is a spiritual being? It needs spiritual stuff. And there is where the sacrament. Because the food, the meaning of the food that give you strength and make you able to do things with your normal body. Also, you need to feed your spiritual side. Okay, so let me try to summarize and rephrase that and if I do it wrong, please correct me. So, there's a fundamental belief that there is, let's say the soul and the body or maybe the mind and the body. And just like the human body needs nourishment, the spiritual body needs nourishment. And so what the church is, is a way to administer food for the spiritual body. Is that fair? Yes, it should be like that. But also, we're not only giving this food to the soul because we understand that each soul, each person that is human and soul have a mission. And the church is the place where people accomplish that mission. Now, is that the church is the place where the people accomplish their mission if you're a priest in the church or is that just for regular people? For everyone because each person that appears in this world have a mission. We understand that God have a big plan, like a big project. So each one of us are here to accomplish that project. So how we accomplish that project? Through community. So we need, so we understand that when Jesus appeared in this world, he didn't appear by himself. He appears in the family between the Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph. So through community, he accomplished his progress because we understand that when he appeared, he is God on all those things. But when he came here, he came like a human being. So he need to grow, he need to learn, he need to be under the protection and direction of his parents. He need to grow in high and also in grace and all those things. He need to learn from others, he need to learn a job and know the values of living together all those things. So we understand that through community, you learn and you grow and you fulfill. Like when Jesus came to this world, he come like a little baby. He need from his parents all protection and care. But when he go out from this world, he went out like king of the universe, master of creation, alpha and omega. That is his title, that when we celebrate at the end of the ordinary time. So we call that progress. When you come like a little baby and you depend on another one and you come out like a king. So each person that appears in this world need to do this path or way. We understand that he came out like king of the universe, lord of creation, alpha and omega. But after he passed away on the cross. So if you want to be king, you need to do the way of the cross. And the way of the cross have the three times he felt. All the beatings, all the humiliation. We call it the spine crown. The crown of the wands. All the suffering. So we understand that if you want to get to fulfillment, if you want to get to omega. You need to do some sacrifices. And the place where you do those sacrifices is in the community. What kind of sacrifices? Okay, we're talking about love. When we have to talk about love, I just don't say like that. I just break it down in compassion, hospitality and mercy. And those three situations, you need to suffer a little bit if you want to accomplish that in a community. That's why the man and the woman marry. Because this man have to practice hospitality, compassion and mercy with his wife. So he can get to fulfillment. So he need to suffer a little bit. And then also the woman have to do the same thing. So she can become fulfilled and get to the most better person that she can be. And to do that she have to love. How? Being charitable, being merciful, making the hospitality with you. And then children appears. So parents can fulfill, get to fulfillment like parents through practicing hospitality, compassion and mercy with their kids. And the same thing happen with the other people. So when you are single, like me, myself, that's why you always need to be related to the community. Because I am not married to no one, but I don't live alone. I live in a community. So I get to practice hospitality, compassion and mercy with a lot of the people. And the same thing happen with the others. Okay, so let me try to do the same thing I did last time. I'll try to put that into a nutshell and if I make an error please correct me. So the idea is this person of Jesus Christ started from being a baby and a manger as the famous story goes. And then wound up, Master of the Universe is the term that you used. And there is a certain process of getting to that final point. And the only way you can get there is by practicing love in a community. And that is what the church is supposed to do is be the community for your love practice essentially. That's right. And then not only that part because we need to do the other part also. Because remember that when we do things we do it in both ways. The human part of it that show true love. And the divine part of it that become true salvation through the spirituality and through the sacraments. So tell me again, with the sacraments I can definitely wrap my head around the idea of love as a spiritual practice in a community. I totally get that. What are specifically the sacraments? What are the rituals? And how do they play into the practice of love? Because we understand that God shows us because in Catholic religion it's not like we do things because we know them. We do these things because we understand there is a revelation. And like God in Jesus Christ's person tells us of the existence of the Father and the existence of the Holy Spirit. It's Jesus Christ who tells us that because before Jesus Christ we didn't know these things. So we understand now that all God is a community. With three persons and just one God. So there is a community. So we understand that fulfillment is you want to be the best person you can be. It's through a community. And this community has to be with the conscience that Jesus Christ is present in the community. And that happened when we understand that in several readings that we have in the Bible. Because like I said, it's not like Jesus said no on there's the church. No. What was the experience? The experience is that after he died three days passed and then each time the apostles gather then he appears. So then he said like these three ladies went to the empty tom and when they come out he appears to them. The other disciple was walking to another place and he appears there. The other disciple was fishing on the shore and then he appears. So like we realize that when we gather he appears. And that is what we do. So let me ask you one question right on that. Because I'm trying to relate this to my own experience and a few years ago I experienced what I would call true love. And my expanded my worldview and I thought okay there's some truth in religion and I got to try to sort it out. Because this is really powerful. So when I think about when a community gathers Jesus appears. Do you take that in a literal way that there's an actual person that is there? Or something that I could kind of understand this. It's almost like when people are there it's the opportunity for love. And when you experience the love it is as if Jesus is there in person or this loving. And then we have to go back to sacraments. Because like I said when you see the flag or you see like Panamanian flag. Panamanian flag represent like four million persons. So you believe that? No. But for the people that are related to that flag. Yes. So like I said symbols have that effect. Because it's the same thing with the United States flag. Because that flag is related so for so many people. I am not seeing the people I see the flag. But the presence of that flag have the effect. The same effect like it's the presence of the people. Is that to say is Jesus in that context is Jesus like the flag? No. When we're talking about sacrament and you ask me is Jesus like the bread and wine. And I have to say yes because he become bread and wine. After consecration that become flesh and blood. And like the nutritionist says you are what you eat. So it's you eating Jesus Christ you become Jesus Christ. Literally. Yes. And that is why we have to talk about sacraments. Because I disrespect the flag. It's like I am disrespecting the people. For the same thing happening with the sacrament. I disrespect the sacrament. I also disrespect in God. So I wonder in this how much of the sacraments or maybe Christianity or Catholicism in general. Do you take allegorically or in a non-literal way. Versus how much do you say literally when you eat the bread it is literally the flesh of Jesus. Or is it all literal or do you is there a line? We understand that this is literal. Is it all of it? It's all of it. Because we understand that Jesus is complete in each situation. Like in his blood. Like in his flesh. That's why we can have communion both by the both ways. With the blood and the flesh or just only with the flesh. And we also have in Jesus complete. But the thing is that this is the part that have to do with the faith. Because it's like when you sit down and eat with someone. You just keep in silence. Well it depends on how good the food is. If it's really good I'm gonna be busy eating. When you all sit down with your brother or maybe some people around you and you sit down and eat. You just eat. We talk. About what? Anything really. About your life, your situations and other people's life also. So actually what it mean is when you sit down and eat with someone. You telling that other person. I really like to be here. And I like to share my life with you. And also I want to know about your life. So it's not only like we eating. We also sharing our life together. So the same thing happen with the sacrament. Literally. Because you not only sharing Jesus Christ's body and blood. You also sharing the life of the people around you. And there is community. So if I were to say something like when I eat. As I've been visiting Panama with my brother we've had a few meals. I could say something like we've shared part of our lives. I think that's very nice. I haven't thought of it that way but that's nice. But I wouldn't say that the food that I'm eating is anything other than the food that I'm eating. So it's not that the food is literally becomes flesh. It is in the Christian context. It's a way of talking. So if I were to say you and I were going to have bread and wine. And if we were to share love with each other and community. It is as if we're sharing the Jesus mindset or the Jesus person, whatever that is. What more power is there in that explanation when we say in addition to sharing that we're also sharing literal flesh and literal blood. Because and this is the part where you need to take the hand of your faith. Because like for us this part is tradition. And why tradition? Because we understand in this martyr's experience and saint's experience that they die and they was able to split their blood repeating this truth and believing this truth that I am sharing with you today. Like I said, we understand that person, the people are just only flesh. We understand that there are other situations that is not material but there is the air. So there is a new situation and a new world that have their own rules and they move their own way. Like when we say in the sacrament of marriage that all these two persons that come in the church there are two persons and then when they go out in marriage they become just one. The same way we understand that God is three persons, one God, these people are two flesh but there are two persons but they become one flesh. So each sacrament talks to us about God and his essence, like his situation, his reality. So let me ask you then about faith and the role of church here because I don't have much knowledge or exposure to Catholicism and when I think of churches in general I think of, I guess, evangelizing or trying to convert people, something like that but what I've gathered in my conversations with people who are in various churches is it's not really that. It's more like what you're describing as a place for people who already believe to practice to get together in community. Is that, would that be a correct way to think about the Catholic Church in general? Because yes, there are missionaries but really most of it is for people who already believe to practice and have that community. Well, we need to understand that church is a very old institution and then it's passed through so many historical situations that have to do with the places where the church grows. So each place have their own situation. So what I'm going to say now is the experience that we have and where I grow because my experience is from someone that came from Adventist Church and passed to the Catholic Church. So for me it's not like a tradition that because my great grandmother brought me to the church each day and I am here. No, I have to study a lot. And then understand what is going on to then become Catholic. And what I understand that there are some facts and things that you don't have, you can explain about it. And that's why I said we have to relate to the faith. And faith is something that I can give you because I am talking. It's something that God has to put in your heart and then you believe in what he's saying. Like when I said each person need to do the way of the cross in their life. They have to find the moment when they was empty and they have to find the moment when they have to fight and how God have to put the hand on him so they can get to die in their situation and then fulfill at the end because actually you need to grow like a person and how we grow through love, through doing sacrifices for others because like when the reading we have today if you want to protect your life you will lose it and when you lose your life for him you will gain it. So like I said this is a faith situation but when you are in the community and also in the church you also see what God do with other persons because then you can ask the others why you do this, why you are here why you spend your life this way when you can be doing another things and they will explain that they haven't got experience and from that moment they become a spiritual person it's not because the priests talk to them or sometimes yes they saw God talk to them through other persons God have their own way to do things but the thing is that for us church like I said is a place where you achieve salvation through a practice of love but like I said hospitality, compassion and mercy So if somebody let's say either doesn't have access to a literal Catholic church family community can you still have the same practice of love just with no formal connection let's say to the church? Okay, well you can have a community a beautiful one because when people gather and be true and be careful for each other we call that also family and you have a place where you can go and people where you can practice love with them that is a blessing and you need to take care of it but when we need to talk about salvation when we need to talk about fulfillment when we need to talk about being the best person you can be we understand that situation we just get it with Jesus Christ through this church Jesus Christ through the church meaning through the formal church with the Pope and the family We need to make the difference like we said at the beginning we understand that church have the same situation like Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ we understand that he's divine because he's God but also he's human because we have to do all the things the human way to do things so that is the way he chose to do things and that's why church yes is human that's why the human way to do things is through an structure because in any community when human being gather they don't gather just everybody like a cloud without a head and all the places you go not to rally there's someone who have to put things straight I like to explain this the center went through family because usually no one want to wash the dishes no one want to take out the trash no one want to clean the toilet usually someone have to put the ugly face because if you don't clean the dishes you don't take all the trash you don't do the toilet someone can live in that house no so we actually need someone who put the ugly face so things get done so everyone can live here and that's why we need a head so the Pope is putting the ugly face on oh yes because someone can have this good idea and come up with so many things and then each one have the same authority now for me I struggle with this when I'm thinking about structure not just in religion but also in government and family and society what I have seen is I guess you could call it corruption all these structures wherever you have hierarchy it seems like the humans who are higher up in the hierarchy so frequently abuse their authority you lose and there's plenty of examples of that in every structure so how do you maintain a kind of respect and trust that in the hierarchy as you go higher up the hierarchy people are honest and they want your best interest in mind maybe the head of the household saying maybe the dishes you know they put on the angry face because really it's better for the whole family how do you stay trusting that that's the same thing going on in church that's why we understand that the doctrine of the church give us the guidance and then well you need also to know about history because in human being history only when you have like a checklist of things if the moment you get to grow how the little kids can accomplish their works because they don't know so then someone have to put like a structure this time we do this the other time we do that at this moment we go to sleep and the other moment we need to go to eat and someone have to do the structure so they can record what they do and actually know what they do bad so they can do it better the next time and the things that they are doing good they also can and doing better so and we see that through the church no we understand also that we are human beings and like I said each church depends on the place and also depends on the people because all the powerful of God become human and like go through human ways so we understand because I know people are fragile but we understand that the church survived 22 not 21 centuries because the God is with us because the Holy Spirit somehow put things together maybe like the tale says right straight with we call inclined bars or something God put the church in a certain path so we need to do things also accomplish the way of the cross because you could say oh no the church is just all powerful all rich and whatever but no each person have to do their own cross way to get to fulfillment even the Pope but we understand that to accomplish we need to voluntarily freely suffer for others and that's why we voluntarily accept Pope's guidance and doctrine it's like I asked the little kids why you take care of what your mom says because she suffer for you taking care of your things in one moment of your life so it's the church so when first people start to behave like a community hold the way of the community practicing hospitality, charity, mercy and compassion with each other then you understand why this work and the other system don't work because usually when you have these high people with positions and stuff you just have to ask about compassion, mercy hospitality or really you are talking about power and that's why I think Pope Francis is so popular now because he's showing now the face of the church Jesus Christ, full of mercy had, but like I said we have to come up with an history and each person with each situation so know is the moment of the mercy and he's showing a lot of mercy and he's putting the church in a path of mercy even if we know that we need to accomplish legal stuff economic situations, social situations and all those things but if we want to fulfill and do the job Jesus Christ have for the church that is through mercy, compassion and hospitality it's not all the way so when you see the church structure when you are looking let's say up the ranks if you will you don't necessarily see power per se you see, what do you see? do you see like earned authority? is there a difference between power and authority? okay, the thing is that look some people says why the Pope don't sell all those things he have in Vatican because that costs a lot of money for sure but the thing is that that don't belongs to him that belongs to the humanity and when he sell that like to you you will take that and put it in your house so who will get to see just your family or the people that relate it to you but when he leave it where it is right now everyone can go and look at it everyone can ask about history it's like when when I am in a church I was before I have to go several times to Rome and I always bought this little souvenirs that have because the people that don't get to go to the Vatican they saw this little things in the pastoral halls and asked me what is this? and that is an opportunity to talk about the church history and if he sell it then it will not be a deer anymore and then humanity lose like so many things that culturally should be for the people and now they are in a private collection that no one can see so let me ask you one more question it's kind of a big topic and it's another difficult one that I am trying to wrap my head around and that is I guess the starting point of religious faith that's come up a lot in the course of this conversation and if somebody so there's two groups of people that I think this should be directed at one is those who have had experiences in their life that they would call religious or spiritual experiences I'd be one of those this was several years ago like I said when I encountered true love with my wife I would call that some kind of religious experience or spiritual experience that needs explanation and there's another large group of people who have never had those type of experiences maybe even at least in the United States I'd say the majority of people have not had those type of experiences so when somebody has had a profound feeling of love or maybe in some way they interpret their experiences having some contact with God in some limited sense it makes more sense to me how faith can be accepted that's like okay I don't really fully grasp everything that's going on here but I'm gonna kind of trust that this is all sorted out and that's why I'm gonna have faith but for those people that haven't had any religious experience how can they understand faith or how is there any argument or any okay anything that will bring somebody to that position okay okay Saint Thomas Aquinas says that people can get to know God through faith through reason and through beauty so you need to have like sense and I said common sense when you see what is going on outside of you like the wise man experience the wise man experience is somehow in the Old Testament someone that come up up here and stand like at the border look at 360 turn and ask himself who set order in all this thing who put the order because you know that order not become by itself it's not that things cleansed by themselves, someone have to do it and then when you stand who says that that hill should be that part over there and the water should be that side and the clouds should be on top and the skies and the other place, who did that because you know that things don't happen because they happen someone have to do it who says that the moon hit the earth and stabilize the orbit and slow down the move to me somebody making cake because why they put the moon in the moment they have to put it and they didn't put it before the same way you put the vanilla in this moment and don't put it before you put the sugar so it's like an experience of common sense but the thing is that people in their location and all the the advertisement and the noise that we are hearing in these days don't stop and think about this thing or normal environment is I have to go to work because I need money because I have to do things and this thing that I have to do I need to do it with money so I have to do whatever I need to do for the money and then you don't think that at some point in your life you will don't have hands you will don't have legs and you will still be there so tell me with which hand you will count the money maybe you just involve your life because you like to have so many shoes but there is a moment where you are going to lose your legs but you will still be there with feet you are going to put those shoes and that's why I say this is common sense and sometimes people just living so fast they don't stop and have the experience of the wise man you would say that reason I like this part especially the idea that reason can lead you to some kind of belief in God I tend to agree for one particular reason about the infinite regress, the cosmological argument there is something like a first cause I think that's a powerful argument but there is a big jump between let's say arguments for deism the idea that there is a creator, there is structure to the universe, there is a first cause maybe to go from reasonable position, there is a creative force I'll accept that too any one of the major religions so to go from I believe there is God and there is a creator too Jesus Christ who lived and died and was God and set up the church and all these things how do you go from A to B ok, like I said all religion is a revelation and who reveal it well the same Jesus because we understand that God himself come to her, incarnate and talk to us about his presence his mission or meaning to be here and Jesus life tell us through his life he tell us what should be human being like Jesus like a human he shows how to be the better human we can be so because of what he was saying so when you read the words of Jesus you think he was God because you think what he said is true or you think he was God because he said he was God ok because he not only saying he do so many signs that communicate God presence and accomplish things that there was right from way before he was appears here so the fulfillment of prophecy I see so in order to so if somebody were to say ok I'm at the diastic perspective I believe there's a God I don't know about this Jesus I'm not sure it takes a measure of faith I think to believe that that a particular set of prophecies were fulfilled or that Jesus turned water into wine so doesn't that still take some kind of faith to get you to the belief in Jesus but faith is reasonable is what reasonable there is the reason reasonable reasonable it's a very hard word ok to believe that things that are situations that not only material have to do with the power the intention of things and there is a reason why some guy come and tell 10 million person I am the son of God and you need to do what I have what I tell you to do and that and that word for the egyptian pharaoh so it's not like something crazy but the crazy part here is why we believe in the powerful man that have the weapons and do stuff then I follow this guy and then the other guy that that in a cross that show love and then things the peaceful way don't and that's why sometimes reason need to have faith in a different way to do things there is a doctrine yes and sometimes school just taught us to look in the box and then faith opportunity, history whatever tell you you need to come out that box and have bigger pictures because we understand that everything is related and then know the people of reason getting to that experience because they don't understand that the same water that are here or in the other planets and also through your vessels the same water the iron that we have in here the same iron doctors you when you are anemic so there is a relation with everything that is to get done we need to believe that the same one who did the universe is the same one who did us and give us intelligence to understand so yes I think it is reasonable I think it is reasonable and I still struggle so I wonder what you think about this I am trying to piece together a philosophy a world view that just explains my experiences and that incorporates everything from beliefs about logic and knowledge and physics all the way to trying to explain my love experience and theological things I get to the point where I think you can make a reasonable argument for the existence of God the uniformity of the universe is an interesting one the iron here is the iron over there maybe that means there is the same creator that is interesting I haven't heard of that one before and when I read specifically the words of Jesus in the Bible maybe not a lot of the other stuff in the Bible but specifically the words of Jesus the way that he is talking about love that resonates with me or something it makes sense to me and it is very very powerful very insightful I think a lot of people have that experience so I might even say something like I am a Jesusist or a Jesus follower I think he is on to something really powerful but even then there is a big between believing that Jesus was on to something and getting to faith I wouldn't even say I really have faith and yet I have some belief in the spirituality of love the truth of love maybe so is there if somebody were to say the reason that you have faith in the church or in Catholicism is just because you have faith the reason you have faith is because of faith it is not for a reason how do you respond to that but it is my case I read a lot I studied a lot because when I started my journey in the Catholic church I wasn't a Catholic I was an Adventist but the thing is that I like to sing for like a passion so one time because of the situation this Catholic girl invited me to sing in the church and for me it was just going to sing not like I believe what the priest is doing or whatever and that was my first contact with the church then I get to make questions and find encyclopedias that can tell the history of what we the church is and not just one encyclopedia I just get several of them because I like to read a lot and then I get to talk to people and do well the community so it is not just only study you also have to be in the community and have the experience of what love is what God means to you that you can be the person you want to be because God put you here for a reason and that reason is that you must fulfill and that is and that was the very part that actually put me in the priest spot because before I want to became a priest I was going I want to build computers that was what I was studying in university but then I get to give a teaching about professional work and personal fulfillment and then you understand that there is people that work without get paid for something because they understand that they become a better person when they give something they think there is their talent and that is why I am in this path now because I understand that I so many sacrifices in my life to be in the church and do things for the church and that is a community experience because you need to be with other people that actually need you so you can evolve and feel happy with what you actually doing and that is responding to the calling that God give you that is why you marry because in some how you do sacrifices for the other person you are married with it is not that you have to pay you you do it because you feel like you want to do it that is why the marriage is not what you can give me is what I want to share with the other person so when the argument comes you don't understand me you don't pass time with me that is not the argument the argument is I do this for you and I do the other things for you and I will do the other things for you and not like I expect you to pay me it is because I want to give you all my life because I love you and that met you a better person because you share what you have we don't get it pay for it well that is an excellent note to end this on I really appreciate your time this has been an excellent conversation alright that was my conversation with father Oscar Martin I hope you guys enjoyed it I intend to have many more of these types of conversations because obviously we just barely scratched the surface here there are so many topics that were brought up diving into too many intellectuals dismiss ideas before listening to them they are quick to mock but not quick to listen instead of mockery and dismissal I recommend letting the ideas speak for themselves your emotional reaction to ideas you disagree with will not persuade but your exposition and reasonable honest analysis of ideas you disagree with might actually persuade so needless to say I've got lots more to say on the topic can't wait to do an interview breakdown of this episode and don't forget to tune in next week where I've got an amazing conversation with Lynn Ulbricht who is the mother of Ross Ulbricht the man who is currently in prison for creating the dark web marketplace the silk road if you've heard about what I'm talking about through the media then you are guaranteed to be explicitly misinformed the case is a miscarriage of justice and trust me you don't want to miss the details so that's all for me today you guys have a great week