 Good afternoon everyone welcome welcome all of you who are currently connected on this online webinar Thank you so much for Coming on board of this train because that's what we're going to be dealing with today trains So I wanted to thank you all for inviting me to moderate this session I wanted to thank the foundation Transition verde green European foundation and no so distance so this last session of this series on mobility Because we've already done two sessions and many of you I'm sure we're already a part of the two previous sessions So during this session we're going to be focusing on trains and railways in Europe But more specifically here in Spain the most efficient means for transportation that has lost its Condition as the Vertibrating method of transportation in Spain except for the high-speed train that is still very much relevant So we'll talk about the railways We will talk about whether many of the fright the freight Transportation could be done with railways. We will talk about railways as a method for goods Transportation, but before that we wanted to remind you that the Henry bull foundation in Europe issued and published the European Atlas on mobility that talks about transportation all over Europe and the green European foundations and those are these on have decided to translate it into Spanish This Atlas has been translated into Spanish and transition verde together with no so distance and Henry bull have created dynamics for Spain So we really invite you to looking at this Atlas We will be sharing the link on this Atlas and the specific chapter on Spain And we invite you to share it and to Peruse it because it has lots of interesting information So as we were saying previously for the launch of this Atlas with we have organized three online events This is the third event, but we wanted to mainly deal with the Decarbonization challenge. So during these three days, we have analyzed how Transportation contributes to our climate emergency and what are the plans for the decarbonization of our society and what can be really done so With no further ado, we will now give the floor to Tilly met we're going to introduce our different speakers so Tilly is a European MP for a green CFA and she's a member of the Tourism and Transportation Commission We will also talk to Jose Luis Arredo Niet Good afternoon. He is a coordinator for a social sustainable and public train and also with Juan to Lopadurale An MP in the Spanish Congress and who is the president of the Commission for the Ecology Ecologic Transition and we also Want to welcome on a ferry who's a member of the Commission on safe and sustainable transportation mobility sorry and before we begin we wanted to remind you of the Of the rules to participate as you've already been told in previous sessions. You can ask your questions by writing them on the chat We will be writing them down and we will then be asking the questions during the Q&A If we have time to answer them all we will read them all and if not We will just break them down into categories by topics so that we can ask them to our speakers So we're going to give the floor to Tilly Mets. Good afternoon, Tilly And we are going to ask Tilly what is being done in Europe as a European MP She can tell us what is being done with railways not only people's transportation, but also Goods transportation because we wanted to talk about freight transportation Railway freight transportation. So what are European MPs proposing right now? You're the floor is yours Tilly. Thank you so much, Lydia And good afternoon everyone No, I'm going just to I'm going to speak English indeed It is not perfect enough to make a whole speech in Spanish Yeah, so thank you for your understanding and thank you for inviting me to this webinar. So indeed My presentation was already met. So I'm coming from Luxembourg and from the Green Group So yeah, two questions were indeed asked to me and it was already said now by Lydia The first is what policies have been taken and the level of the European Union and also what are the proposals now Coming from the Greens. So I will start indeed by very briefly talking about the EU policies on the railway sector And then I will focus my presentation on the specific demands from us the Greens So transport is responsible for a quarter of EU greenhouse gas emissions And it is the only sector where the emissions are still growing To avoid disastrous climate change, we know that we need to reduce our emissions to net zero in 2050 This is of course a very great challenge and it really require Social, but also technological changes that we have not seen so far in the history But we do know that railways are the most environmentally sustainable and energy efficient transport mode for large passenger transport That's why we need to make a large shift in passenger and freight from road and air to rail The EU has been working for years to set up a single European railway area So between 2001 and 2016 the EU adopted four legislative packages with this aim So goal has been to gradually open up rail transport service marketers for competition to make the different national railway system interoperable and developing a common framework Just as an example the EU has developed charging and capacity allocation rules common provisions on licensing of railway undertakings and train driver certifications and safety requirements The EU has also created a European agency for railways and common rail passenger rights This is all very good and honestly we cannot say that the EU has not been investing in railways But we Greeks believe that we need to do much more and have the more comprehensive holistic thinking if we want to facilitate the necessary model shift from road and air to rail So we Greens in the European Parliament have developed a short paper that served as a basis for our thinking about railway policies I wanted to briefly now present to you this and of course I'm happy to share the paper with you afterwards So you can see it is about an integration triangle and that gives a good idea on what we are aiming at First of all we need to integrate the current patchworks into one European network and to do that and that is an important word now and an important concept we need to have interconnectivity Today all member states have their own networks to create a trans-European network The Commission has been focusing on big priority projects on the TAN T and to connect now big cities through high speed lanes This is of course from the Commission point of view but quite an easy thing to do as they channel big amounts of money through a relatively small number of big projects But to really achieve the model shift to rail we Greens we believe it is even more important to reinstate missing regional and cross-border rail lanes Today there are many small connections between different regions and cross Countries that for different reasons are not used We believe it would make much more sense to invest in connecting those ones before investing in big large scale high speed lines Secondly we need also interconnectivity between the different transport modes to create what we call a door-to-door mobility or the last mile The main idea is to make it easier for passengers using different modes of transport To do that we can think of so-called multi-modal ticketing That would allow the passenger to purchase all tickets in one go that would enable them to travel using different transport modes provided by several different operators We can also think of passenger rides The Commission had the idea to create minimum requirement for passenger rides for each transport mode So for rail, for plane, etc. But from the point of view of the passenger it would be much easier to adopt equal minimum requirements for all modes Then it would have been much more clearer for the passenger what to do in different circumstances and what to expect also in terms of compensation For instance if you have a delay of 10 minutes you get 5 euros in compensation If you have one hour delay you can get 10 euros That would have been more easy to understand for the passenger compared to today's different routes Finally we need to have interoperability and that you see on the corner below between the different country systems We need to integrate the different technical standards for instance also on certificates or licenses Legally speaking the different legislative levels European, national, regional and local need to intertwine and be interconnected with each other We developed as Greens 11 guiding principles for developing a true European railway system So very shortly we need first to sync railways as networks No one travels from station to station but as I said already we're traveling from door to door What matters is the quality, reliability and smoothness of the entire transport chain Not only on a part of the journey Different types of traffic for example regional and long distance passenger and freight transport Night and day traffic need to be coordinated to optimize connectivity Second to see the railway as an investment into the future for all users Developing railways within the public transport system is an investment into the future for our Societies, regions and people It allows every citizen, every city and every region to be connected So therefore and it is an important concept for me inclusion is key Be it for remote regions or persons for example with reduced mobility Citizens need to rely on a sustainable mobility guarantee Digitalization can be tool supporting inclusion Certainly to use our vision of future networks as the guidance for the day's decisions Only if we know really what we want to achieve we can steer into the right direction Therefore we need a holistic vision at the beginning For example and I found it an interesting example to say to you Denmark formulated the vision of its major cities to be only one hour travel apart Promoting the development of transport sufficiency plans in member states and there you could therefore guide us away from modal silo approach so that we fix first basic goals that we want to achieve And then we're going into that direction and also financing into that direction Firstly to create a fair competitive framework for rail is a v other modes Rail is most and I said it already sustainable and energy efficient transport modes for the big passenger volumes, but and we all know it rail suffers from taxation and pricing disadvantages For instance, there is no tax on kerosene for air transport. There is no VAT on flight tickets There are also hidden subsidies in road transport. There is a lack of infrastructure Charges for road users and there are other road externalities that are financed through taxes Rather than directly allocated to the price of road transport We therefore must definitely fifths invest in projects that benefit the entire network It is not useful if you gain 10 minutes of travel time on a new high speed line If you lose then 30 minutes because connections are not there with other trains and transport modes are poor Therefore financing rail in intermodel chain should be a priority. We should also develop dedicated policies for the mobile shift. For instance in Germany they are introducing something called Taktfachplan. I'm sorry now for the translation. So they make really a plan that means that regional trains have to be connected to the intercity trains so that there's a coherence there. In the future we could imagine this kind of plans connecting all different modes so also with buses and also the possibility when you arrive to take a bike or whatever. Six sink beyond borders and as coming from Luxembourg I can tell you this is really important while railway connections should not be stopped by regional, national or technical barriers cross border realities require cross border solutions particularly in terms of funding, legal and institutional responsibility. As an example having a single information and booking interface for different travel modes reduces barriers to travel. When it comes to rail we have been calling for a single platform to book tickets throughout Europe which again already exist for flight tickets easily understandable and smoothly applied passenger rides including through ticketing are vital. Well I could also name some other things that have to be done but I see time running so I go immediately on my seventh point apply the right criteria what matters is not profit maximization for private investor but the economic ecological and social sustainability. If a railway line that generates only little part of profit is closed a railway undertaking may win in the short run but society loses that is why the state has to be in control and the EU must find ways to support. We have to further develop simplify and apply existing tools like public service contracts in particular in cross border relations so less we spend on rail the more expensive climate protection will become. Eight make accessibility the standard and ensure the possibility to transport bicycle on all trains. Train shall provide sustainable mobility to everyone regardless of their physical capabilities barrier free access to train and stations is vital everywhere at any time including for customers traveling with bicycles. This will strengthen railway position as an especially environmentally friendly transport mode. I also as mentioned before strong and clear passenger rides across the different transport mode are essential for high quality service. We thereby can nine guarantee affordability mobility affordable mobility all over Europe as explained before the current focus on few high speed projects that get the lion chair of public funds drives up prices on the entire network and hinders investment in the host of smaller and smarter projects. 10 shift towards environmentally friendly rail that helps to decolonize mobility. A high quality network allows for more resilient mobility chains and improve the travel experience. This makes the railways a real alternative to the car, plane or lorry guaranteeing mobility and protecting climate. This also means promoting existing rail connection as well as night trains as alternatives to short power flights. Rail has also a huge advantage for long distance freight transport. To fully explore this potential we need to focus on providing multi-model terminals to ensure first and last mile deliveries. 11 and that is my last point reconnect Europe. Many cross border railway connections have been abundant or dismantled over the past decades. Bridging these gaps would bring together people on both sides of the border and create a real european added value. We also need to give support to the newly developing night train network across Europe. Finally looking a bit ahead on what is coming up in December last year the commission published four new transport proposals and two of them are very relevant for the railway sector. First there is an action plan to boost long distance and cross border rail services. This is only an action plan so it's not concrete legislation but it includes some very good ideas that could help to boost long distance and cross border rail. So if realized for instance an EU wide exemption of VAT on rail tickets and the ambition that all travel under 500 kilometers should become carbon neutral. But the commission has completely missed the important aspect of cross border missing, disused or dismantled regional rail links. They also did not propose any initiative to better integrate high speed into regional networks. And then there is also the revision of the 10T regulation. So 10T is an EU wide network of rail inline waterways short sea shipping routes and roads. It connects 424 major cities with ports, airports and railway terminals. When the 10T is complete the goal is to cut travel times between these cities. One of the main objectives of this revision of the guidelines is the development of high speed rail network. Another good improvement is the obligation for these 424 cities to create sustainable urban mobility plans. This will increase public transport and active modes like walking and cycling. So sustainable urban mobility plans will also promote efficient and low noise zero emission transport and mobility including greening, urban fleets and also noise pollution mitigation. Well there are some other files coming up like the revision to the intelligent transport system directive. But it's so far not directly linked to the railway. And there is also the new urban mobility framework. Well there we could see some link notably when we speak about multimodal mobility that there is a link with the new urban mobility framework. But I don't go into the detail right now seeing the time running. So thank you very much for letting me speak today. And I will be very happy to answer your questions if you if you have some. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much Tilly. Well that was very interesting everything that you have said everything that our European MP has said. I think we all noted it all down. And we are now going to go from those ideal proposals on what the railway could do in the future in Europe to what the current situation is in Spain. So we will be giving the floor to José Luis Orgoñez who is the speaker of the state coordinator for a public social and sustainable train. Good afternoon José Luis and as I was saying considering Tilly's proposals who has explained them all so well what is the current status of Spain and are those proposals being seen in our territory in our geography. What's the status of railway here in Spain. And what are the proposals that your platform is putting on the table. And we would also like to insist on those deficiencies that we see in European plans the recovery plans those investment plans with regards to railways with regards to investments in the railways. And of all those deficiencies is their consistency with regards to the Paris and the Paris agreement. And with regards to adapting mobility for decarbonization to fight climate change. So José Luis the floor is yours. Hello good afternoon. Yes. Okay good afternoon everyone. Good afternoon to all of you all of you who are connected here today. Thank you so much for inviting me to participate in this webinar. The state coordinator has citizen platforms all over Spain all over the Spanish territory. We are a Spanish coordinating platform in the European context. So this is the meeting we're in. Okay so you asked me a few a few questions. You asked the coordinator a few questions and I'm going to I'm sorry I'm going to try and answer them. So what is the status of railways in Spain. Well currently the situation we're in is the following. We are currently planning. There is a Spanish railway plan that covers the 2021-2026 period that is currently being drafted. It's funny that what the draft says the final draft says is actually forgetting the climate emergency. It does not talk about the climate emergency we're in right now. And and we're actually trying to lie to ourselves while playing this game because it we did a sensible diagnosis. We've run a sensible diagnosis of the situation but it doesn't explain how we got to this situation which is a critical situation because railways in Spain are not faring well and at the same time it forgets about the railways and about the trains that are most that are used being used most every day. And then we have a very important problem because the company that manages the infrastructure and the public company that manages the trains. I'm talking about both Adif and Renfe don't have enough staff and resources and that is leading them to to having problems every day. There are trains that were programmed but that are not in circulation because there isn't enough staff that is that is because the different government in Spain have been cutting back on public services these last few years. And then there is a very low participation of trains in this multimodal transportation modes distribution are other trains and are high-speed trains because they're the only ones that people talk about they only do 23,000 trips a day. Only 23,000 journeys take place on a daily basis but intercity and regional trains are currently doing two million trips per day but the investment as the European and B was saying the investment that we have made is has been done incorrectly because 70 percent has been dedicated 70 percent of the investment has been dedicated to 23,000 trips a day and only 30 percent the 30 remaining is dedicated to those two million trips and freight transportation is at a minimum it does not resemble Germany or Austria we are around three percent of our total total freight transportation in in Spain. And another detail I wanted to share with you which is quite negative is the fact that we don't have basic state railway network and currently the government is not even considering it because they think that just if they participate in the trans-European network that is enough we're solving everything within our borders but that is not true and the Ministry for Transportation according to what we have seen in this plan have some basic criteria which are erroneous they have said well they actually applaud that the trend of concentrating populations in big metropolis is irreversible and the other thing is that the rural world should be destined to macro um macro companies and cultural tourism nature tourism but not to people living there distributed all over the Spanish territory. Another basic criteria which is absolutely wrong is that the high roads the roads are the universal mode for transportation and everything else are just compliments to the road that is why they are giving all of their support with money and with rules and criteria and plans the e-car e-vehicles because they consider that that is the element that will be king of all the um transportation so they are leaving railways and trains as a compliment aside and the other error is that they take mobility as a fundamental right when what we really need we people need is accessibility accessing all goods and services contact with other people but that accessibility needs to take place with as little mobility as possible the less mobility we need for that accessibility accessibility to goods and services and contact with other people the better the ministry has been correct at setting up the information study for the recovery of a closed line the guadix baffal manzora lorca line this line allows us to connect within the Mediterranean corridor a trans-european corridor allows us to connect Andalusia with the rest of the Mediterranean regions in Spain and another right move was that they started reopening a tunnel in the central region of Spain in Somos Sierra that will allow to well that when that tunnel is once again in service will allow us to open an important line which connects Borgo Saranda del Duero, Riaza in Cebovia and Madrid but at the same time while putting in place these right moves they are making a huge mistake they want to close the normal line from Madrid to Cuenca and Valencia not only have they close the Via de la Plata in the European trans-european network we have actually found out about this because documents have been published by the EU and not because there was transparency in the Spanish government so what are the proposals that the coordinator the coordinator body has well first of all we would like to have a basic railway network in Spain that should be connected to the trans-european network the trans-european network should be integrated in our basic railway network here we should have our own mesh we should have they call that that it's a high-speed network what we have in Spain when it's only an x crossing Spain what we need is real mesh a real network something that is is accessible really accessible I saw that our European MP colleague talked about making it accessible and affordable well we have double lines that are electrified for mixed traffic both freight and and passengers with the with the ERTMS with the European management system that allows 345 trains going one way and back every day with an average speed of 165 kilometers per hour this does not require going over 200 kilometers per hour and they should have stations in the main cities of the rural areas to have interchanging platforms in big urban areas to have logistics platforms for for goods in big cities and that as our colleagues said that the European trans-european Atlantic and Mediterranean corridors should be included in this network and we also have to think that this multi-model transportation system should be based in the trains in walking and bicycle rides and every other mode of transportation should be the complement to these three main transportation modes because the main role of the transportation multi-model mode is to give as much access as we can to goods services and contacts with other people because that because if we reach that maximum accessibility with the with the minimum ability we would reach the optimum level so that is what I wanted to share with you and I will be open to questions thank you very much thank you so much Jose Luis we will go back to all of these things because to be honest Tilly first and then Jose Luis have really given us a great overview of the proposals from Europe and how they can be implemented in territories such as ours and our geography based on the current situation so after this picture that Jose Luis went to connect Manel Ferri he was introduced previously he is the president of the foundation safe and sustainable mobility another platform that also that has also presented a document called more passengers more trains less emissions and those are the basis to double the number of passengers per train and railway in Spain so that gives continuity to what Jose Luis was telling us so Manel we will give you the floor so that you can talk to us about those proposals from your platform human so that's what I wanted to ask you thank you thank you so much well as a foundation we participate together with other entities ecological groups and sectorial mobility groups and what we have drafted is a document which is what we call what we call set the basis so that we can double the number of passengers in Spain so the criteria that are being followed are 13 criteria 13 objectives that we have set ourselves that have nothing to do with creating more infrastructures but rather offering more services so the main idea of the document is in Spain we have we have enough railways we need more trains we need more services and if we need more services it means that we need to manage the common railway offer that we have I'm talking about high speed regional national night night night trains and transnational trains that is the main idea so what we do is an overview of all the different aspects that we consider important in order to double and go from the current situation one a low use of our railway infrastructure if we can compare ourselves to other european countries and go towards an increase and double the number of passengers which is what we propose in our document the criteria go obviously from go through organizing services in a different way so we have to to change the mode of main transportations we have to have a railway governance that is different and we need to give the management of railways to those regions and communities as it is being done in France and Germany and in the Netherlands that's a way of managing railways proximity railways we have to integrate railway services we mustn't just talk about the iberian width but rather we should integrate all of our railway services with urban public transportation in big cities and big metropolitan areas something that is not happening right now we have to strengthen the exchanges connectivity with big stations so that we're all connected with public transportation and with other railroads we have to be connected so that there is a good intermodality we need to have a seamless journey all of the sustainable mobility needs to be seamless this is what they were explaining us from europe we have to integrate bicycles in all its aspects this is historical and this is something that is very much forgotten in our country and a new fair system where we have to follow the swiss model where we talk about systems fair systems that can cover the whole country or the whole region these are things that do not exist currently in our country we were talking about criteria such as establishing minimum quality criterias we have low densities in some territories then we have other territories with a higher concentration of population so we have to establish a minimum of four trips per day and we have examples such as the line of La Popla where a line that was condemned to disappear a few years ago they have invested in it they have reestablished it they have purchased materials and they have purchased new trains and now they are connecting with that idea of the railway node in the yeda station with other services and obviously we need to purchase trains and platforms and have platforms that are good enough to cover all the strains that we want to have and lastly we would have to adapt our personnel our staff actually my colleague was talking about the fact that Renfe and Adif don't have enough resources and it is important to think that all of these things that we're explaining in this document require an increase in staff for Adif and Renfe so that we can offer services thinking of the services that railways need to offer that always have to have users at its center users who use railways and then there are two final paragraphs or parts where we talk about the policy that will allow us to bring some transparency to Renfe and Adif we need to have an open door policy it cannot be allowed for all the decisions that are taken by Renfe and by Adif are always behind closed doors they should be taken with open doors we should have an open dialogue with territories and with entities because we think that trains can be managed differently in Spain and the last point obviously is setting up matching all of these pieces together all of these pieces have to fit together we need energy transition and we need sustainable transition objectives we explain all of these things in our document and it all has to do with a different management a differentiated management we have to stop with the management we have had in Spain in these last few years where we have always been focusing on the on creating a backbone that was Madrid with other big cities that x that we were talking about previously we need a mesh we need a network a real network with an offer that increases public services by using the railroad and as a conclusion of the current situation or a diagnosis of the current situation i would say that railways are not at the center of the climate action of our government it's actually in the opposed side of what it should be they are explaining from europe what needs to be done but it's not being applied in Spain that would be the final conclusion of the document thank you so much manel i will leave the link i will leave the link and i will send you the document so that you can upload it or that so that you can share it when you send all the information of this series of meetings so that everyone can have all the different all the different parts of the document i know that there is a bigger part of the document that is not the point to be tackled here today so it's not that we have too many railways in Spain it's rather that we don't have enough trains and and that entails everything i'm talking about long distance regional and intercity very well we will repeat that in that moto there are just painted it's actually very gray but it's all possible we will be able to change it and we will now give the floor to juante lobe de uralle who is a president of the commission for a colorist but if you could turn your camera on you can start your presentation and if you have and the question we wanted to ask one too is the following from your point of view and after having listened to dillian jose Luis what is the government's policy what is the Spanish government's policy with regards to where railways what's the what's the road ahead and what are the difficulties so juante the floor is yours good afternoon and i am so sorry for the technical difficulties we have had absolutely i agree with everything that has been said doing this afternoon about the importance of railways and the importance in such a transcendent topic as the fight against climate change from my point of view railways are necessary to decarbonize and decarbonize Spain and this is an effort that we have to be working on and i also share the opinion that has been expressed in the sense that it seems that the railway has not been taken into consideration in the decarbonization policies here in Spain i think that with regards to passenger transportation and freight transportation railways should have a fundamental role the transportation sector with regards to emissions is the one that is still increasing but all the transportation modes are going down such as the energy sector but the transportation sector that represents 30 percent of emissions is still increasing so these emissions 72 percent of those emissions come from road transportation so since railway it only represents 0.4 percent of those emissions maybe should be what we what we would go back to and we should use it as a weapon against climate change and with regards to freight transportation and goods transportation the advantages are obvious compared with road transportation there is an 80 percent emissions reduction per ton and per kilometer so really it is important in in spain we only transport 4 percent of goods by using a railroad but in europe these sort of transportation represent 18 percent but they have an objective of 30 percent for 2030 so in other aspects of our fight against climate change such as renewable energies and changing our energy system seems to be making some progress we aren't making any progress with railways and in that sense i i share the worries and the the thoughts shared by other speakers now as for climate change a debate we at unidas podemos consider that it was important to tackle this matter or at least that there should be some sort of of commitment for the development of railroads and railways and railways in i'm sorry railways in spain we introduced two things in the climate change law one of those points was an additional an additional point which was number six which was promoting passengers mobility in railways which is a second element that we introduced in the law which is the commitment for a sustainable mobility law i will talk about that later on because i think it's relevant now so as i said this this additional element establishes the necessary means compared to other more polluting modes of transportation so it also considers great transportation and the government will have to to we're talking about the the law for sustainable mobility but the government will establish the measures to make progress with regards to that line of the the penetration of railway for the transportation of goods for distances that are over 300 kilometers and the government also says and the law also says that the government will have to promote freight transportation within railways in their plan and there will be measures that will have an impact on all the sectors that might have an impact on the increase of competitivity of this transportation so there is a clear perception that although we always talk about the need of having freight transportation using rail railways it doesn't really happen and the percentage of goods that are being transported in the railways in spain is is being reduced so as i said we introduced that amendment in the climate change law and it is now included so as i was saying since the climate change law with regards to railways is insufficient the government engaged itself to developing sustainable mobility law and this law for sustainable mobility is currently being drafted i have to explain actually that the ministry for public constructions is currently working on this law for sustainable mobility which is now in the last part of the process before it is presented to the council of ministries it will be presented momentarily and in that sense what we want is for a series of measures to be considered when i say we i i'm talking about only that's what it was because as you know the ministry of transportation and mobility is a ministry as many other ministries that pertain to this to this area are is controlled by the socialist party they are the ones drafting the law what we do is make proposals proposals that that go in the sense of what we're saying here i think that the law for sustainable mobility is going to be the time is going to be a tipping point in the debate it has already been said by the previous speakers in spain we have had a great weakness which was that of the policy supporting high-speed trains and most of the budget for railway has always been sent to high-speed trains trying to promote high-speed trains and that obviously has has left conventional trains left and forgotten and we think that that is changing now we see that there is a change in the proposal unfortunately it's not a is not as fast a change as we would like it this is like trying to to to move a petro a bit an oil rig you know that it is very difficult to move it it's a it its space is really slow but at least we are now in the right direction or we hope to be in the right direction so we have sent a series of proposals for that law for sustainable mobility that i'm going to briefly refer to and with that i'll be done so first of all we want to double the number of bicycle trips for daily mobility and the number of kilometers for urban and intercity journeys and including conventional and high-speed train journeys when compared to 2020 and we want to have public transportation means without greenhouse gas emissions and we want to cancel those commercial airlines that are in the Spanish territory where there are railway possibilities under three hours adopting measures so that we can cover 35 percent of the passengers that currently use conventional means so that they now start using non-emitting transportation modes in 2030 we want to have we want for 30 percent of the freight transport freight transportation to be done in railway when the distances are over 200 kilometers and we wanted to reach 50 percent in 2050 so these are some of the proposals that we are currently making that we want to introduce in the new law and that is where i think that we need to fight so that this deficit that we have with regards to transportation and in our fight against in our fight against carbonization so in our decarbonization fight we can complement the work that is being done and all the engagements and commitments that are taking place in other sectors and we want to really promote railways so that that is a stronger mode of transportation thanks to the support of our government and that is what we're dealing with that's the fight that we're currently battling and our engagement with railways is obvious we are there fighting the fight we're also present in the platforms and we will be working in that line the line that i just mentioned and i hope that we are successful in this fight thank you very much thank you so much Juanjo yes we all hope that you will be successful obviously okay so we will now go to questions we will try and make progress in this debate obviously there can there can be a nice debate we are going to try and be brief because there are many questions but they can all be summarized with one one question Joseph Luiz starts asking what is the reason for this mistake for the position of government why did they reduce to uh why did they decide to reduce the public offering of rail roads when railways when we have seen that it goes against common sense so what is the reason why policies go against the common sense so i don't know Manuel José Luiz do you have something to say i'm sure that José Luiz also has the answer but if you'll allow me José Luiz just to break the ice in our country they haven't understood the railway as a climate tool and as a tool to really connect our territory they only saw it as a problem as an old system where we even said in the 80s and 90s that highways were the way to connect territories and the social democrats actually the socialist party said it and they closed over 7 000 kilometers of railways at the time they didn't understand mobility they have followed a logic of infrastructures a logic of satisfying big building companies and many other things that i'm not going to insist on now but there wasn't a mobility policy there was an infrastructures policy there wasn't a mobility policy well if you'll allow me i don't know if i may take the floor yes please go ahead i i think that the achilles talent of our country was high speed trains really i think that they really were betting for high speed trains and it was the wrong bet i think at the time they thought that high speed trains needed to be the answer for anyone i for everything i think that the political class really believed it and they're responsible for it because at a certain time everyone once wanted a high speed train for their village which is something that is impossible because high speed trains cannot articulate the territory but betting for high speed trains and for abbe made it impossible to have budget for anything else because 95 percent of the budget was targeting high speed trains and um intercity trains were the ones forgotten were the big forgotten trains when actually intercity trains are the ones that are really um busiest and that made our railway system very weak because maintaining those high speed trains was very expensive and that was a bet that completely demolished our railways and we will see how we can correct that well we last year um in 2021 actually 2021 was the year of trains in europe all of the activity that the citizen platforms had was targeting actually the promotion of trains within the multimodal um transportation system and our motor was train is the backbone of the territory and is cooling the planet down and that is something that the government does not understand the current government does not understand or at least the socialist the so-called socialist party does not understand it and they are the ones holding power over the transportation ministry and they don't understand it because they follow the logic that abnad had which is what um juan solope they were saying when they decided to not follow the orientation of european uh white papers they decided that the white paper was actually a pretty document but in spain it was not going to be implemented that is what the ministry for public works said at the time i don't know what his what the name of the ministry was but it was the ministry for transportation and that's what alvaro casco said our minister at the time and right now what i just mentioned that the fact that they wanted to close normal lines lines of a normal train between madrid quenca and valencia just comes to show that they are thinking that they only need to cater to big cities madrid is a big metropolis valencia is a big city it's the third biggest city in spain so quenca which is um um a smaller city an interior territory city that does not have that power is not important enough um and it's not just quenca all of the other villages that we find between madrid and valencia such as aranjuez tarancón uquiel requena all of those cities villages and the rural areas that are found between madrid and valencia have no importance for the ministry of transportation so it is if it is true that we will be working on this law of sustainable mobility let's see if we can convince the ministry that its orientations up till now have been completely aromius it's not what the population and this the society in spain needs but i don't know what participation we the citizens will have in that law for sustainable mobility because for instance right now for um for railway planning we have been given 45 days for planning but in the but they only asked us for participation during christmas and the new year they didn't give us that possibility to participate they only allowed us to participate when we have less capacity to participate and it seems that the general orientation of the government is not really positive with regards to railway with regards to trains and with regards to what sustainability really is and with regards to reducing greenhouse gas emissions so we'll have to wait thank you so much rosa louise i'm going to continue with something that tilly said at the beginning she said that no one travels from station to station so the correct policy would be connecting door to door instead of thinking station from station it should be door to door and michael asks us a question he asks a question to all speakers saying that as we will know especially transport experts we know that the current point of view or actually the the central problem is that everything is focusing on cars we move around in cars and mobility is deeply rooted in that sort of mobility in our culture in whatever it is so what would be the options that's his question and what would be the strategies to to change so that we could use more sustainable mobility solutions what should be the policy going from door to door or do we need a change in our mindset what what comes first well change in mindset if you allow me obviously is needed we need a change in mindset and a change in culture but public powers cities governments and so on they have that responsibility they have to allow for sustainable mobility something that has not been offered till now you have to think that we're talking about mobility sustainable mobility law and it's our first law other countries already have it but we don't have it and we have desired infrastructures and services without having a mobility plan a holistic plan for instance if we think about passengers something that we should take into account when we think about mobility beyond emissions and energy consumption and think that trains are actually the mode of transportation that is most efficient with regards to resources consumption per passenger per passenger per kilometer but the truth is that the realities and and influencing cities to try and and plan cities and railway services as as when I was explaining the basis of the document is what I haven't mentioned and that means that we have to limit cars not just limit cars and saying we'll go from fossil fuel cars to e-vehicles because that's what they're trying to sell to us and we've given too much voice to that to that idea the e-vehicles that were already existed which were tramways we already had tramways that's what we need to recover that is what we need to go back to in great lines and in any case we need to guarantee inter-motality we have seen that stations have been built in burgos in Valladolid in el camp de tarragona for instance that have been built in in rural areas where potatoes were planted they're completely disconnected to the railway services that are more accessible that are closer to the territory and whether it's intercity original trains or tramways they're always um um far from the population and that's what we've seen year after year after year after year so what we have to do is really understand the value that trains have and the railway system has and also guarantee model stages for instance in berlin you have shared taxes services in fryburg you have tramways that are connected to taxes so that you can do the last mile in your same in that same ticket that is something that refe has not done and has not asked for that's just an example i'm giving but then we have other realities but in many cases we have to reinforce metropolitan areas and we have to really invest in metropolitan areas and we have to invest in railways in the largest sense of the expression really tilly please go ahead i'm sorry you wanted the floor uh you had raised your hand and we stole the turn from you no no no not at all especially as i completely agree uh what has been said by manel uh he said a lot of things i wanted also uh to say considering especially also the rural areas where we have to be also show some creativity some uh in order that the people that don't live near stations how they get there and there are a lot of different alternatives that we did not explore yet without the not with the idea that every needs to have an electric car now which is completely not realistic but there are all other alternatives like a share model or like a kind of taxi service that used to go around in rural areas etc but what i wanted to say to react on the mind shift and i really liked also what manel and also you said that media it's also a cultural shift but that's for sure we make we make to we need to make public transport and especially train also reliant efficient and affordable and accessible so for everybody so it's not only that we need this cultural shift but also the the image and the efficiency if i i know for example the train to come from luxembourg to brussel i always know it has delayed it takes a lot of time three hours and a half and sometimes i have to change to switch in in in our law so that is not efficient for 220 kilometers three hours and a half so really that it's not enough that we say to the consumers oh yes you have to change but it's also it has to be shown as i said efficient and affordable etc and reliant and especially tackling and that is why i like also what manel said we need this holistic approach of and to allow really this this model shift and using different transport modes that but that we can buy one ticket that is that was all already already said but i remember also that's just telling you very small anecdote was my daughter when she was still a student and we had big discussions when i told her please i want you to take the train it's important to take the train but then to go for example to spain or whatever and then she said okay from luxembourg going to barcelona i have to change twice the train i pay a lot it's more expensive and if i take one um air company even a regular air company i don't have to change it's much less expensive so we always come back to this not fair system that is there and giving advantage to the air transport compared to and i said that during my presentation we need also that flight tickets have the tv a and we need also taxes on kerosene and use this money please then to advance in in in wales and in in in trains so um i think there is really also a paradigm shift that has to be done also on the political level and then we need coherent politics that and also brave politics to to say honestly thank you thank you tilly joseluis please go ahead well as i was saying citizen platforms here in spain are proposing what tilly was saying that door-to-door transportation we actually talk about the multimodal system not just intermodal but rather multimodal and we have to base it on the railway walking because we have to to remember that with pedestrians and bicycles those three modes which are the most sustainable should be the core the backbone of our system and then every other model should complement those three so obviously the road with complement the plane with complement ships with complement and a river transportation with complement as well but as i was saying linking it to what tilly was saying we have proposed to the ministry of transportation during this this planning period to have just one ticket for this multimodal system one ticket for the whole system that would include train that would include plane that would include ships that would include river transportation that would include bicycles that would include all the different transportation modes and we also insist on the fact that we have to to treat people from rural areas as we treat people from urban areas and there need to be stations in all the main provinces in regions high speed trains in 500 kilometers only have five stations so there is one station every 100 kilometers yes every 100 kilometers there is a station so that way we cannot serve the whole territory but the railway policies that we that we see coming from europe say that railway lines should service the territories that they go through and in spain that is not the case and the ministry is trying to keep on betting on high speed trains and punishing normal trains and that doesn't make any sense because spain although it has big cities those big cities have been created artificially by promoting that displacement from the rural areas to the cities but the rural areas are very important because they represent food our food system they're the basis for nutrition and they have also an important heritage from the touristic point of view and they also have a very diverse nature a rich nature from the point of view of getting to know nature so our policy is actually a door-to-door policy by using a one unique ticket and having a multi-model system that will connect all modes with taking into account that there are three that are fundamental which are train walking and bicycles thank you José Luis this makes the link with Victor's question saying that in France they have just for bin the plane trips that would have an alternative with trips with trains that are short such as Bordeaux to Paris and Lyon to Paris will we be doing that in spain because for instance in spain we have Madrid Alicante Madrid Seville Madrid Barcelona and for Tilly there's also a question are we working at the commission to do something like that in Europe where many cities already have a high speed train will we be forbidding plane trips for those for those areas Tilly would you like to start answering the question yes I if I don't know if you remember I spoke also about the action plan and in the action plan and also in the sustainable and smart mobility strategy has the goal that all passenger travels up to 500 kilometers should be climate neutral that is what what is aimed at so we are now waiting on the commission on to propose something on a you level because it could be indeed from the competence here it could be possible there is a an article 20 on the air service regulation so it could be possible to take us to decision at the you level so it that is why I said now when we have nice wordings in some strategy regarding mobility but now we need also coherent and brave legislative tax and that could be a possibility so we are now waiting with the commission is tabling there but in the strategy it is already and also in this action plan when we say under 500 kilometers should be carbon neutral so the consequence would be very clearly to ban than short-haul flights I don't know if you want to take the floor as well I don't know if you wanted to react to what Jose Luis said or I'm going to give the floor to want to because that was actually pending it was pending an answer with regards to that empty Spain and connecting it through the railways I don't know if that's what you were trying to say well actually I was thinking about the questions that have been asked with regards to the mobility law and the process and so on we have we have been talking about the about forbidding short-haul journeys plane journeys but that does not mean that we will manage to to obtain the results we want but I want to say something that's important we're doing it with all the laws we're being in contact with the platforms and collectors and so on and we're explaining to them that when the law gets to the parliament the the ball is no longer in our court and that's where parties have to start playing so the platforms need to work with with the parties with the political parties to try and get their support and so that they support their proposals because it's it's really important because it's not just that the ministry wants or doesn't want I mean if we if we get majorities for instance for the climate change law we managed to do it with certain things and with the weight management law as well if we get enough support we can introduce new elements that maybe right now would not be there because the ministry does not want to introduce them so the legislative process is a process that gives more capacity currently with the majorities that we have because these are majorities that are always changing so I think that this is important that the collectives need to understand this we have to work with the different political parties so that they really give their support to whatever amendments we want them to approve that does not mean that we will have the majorities but now it's a different way of working and I think that it is still very relevant now as for the empty Spain we need to articulate things in the same way I mean the railway network in Spain and high-speed railway in Spain which is a network that is centralized and high speed is only joining two far away points but in the middle there is no connection whatsoever is a policy that has been nefarious for the activity in the rural areas so we need to recover railways we need to recover mid-distance railways this is something that many municipalities in the empty Spain are fighting for and that is what we need to work on and obviously we must fight so that the lines that are that still exist are not closed thank you Juanto Manuel yes yes absolutely following what Juanto has said and he has very well explained the context and the format how we have to fight I wanted to ask Juanto that it is important right now I don't know how you do it and what's the margin what's the space how you're going to manage it but what really is important is that the different entities the entities that have proposals and alternatives to the model that has been put in place up till now may participate not just with political parties but also we need to have a forum in the congress uh so that within the framework of of the debate so that we can make the proposal so that the MPs all of our deputies can listen to the proposals that we have so because we need to be able to explain what the situation is what the status of the situation is and so that they can listen to us we need to highlight the urgency I said it previously but I have to repeat it the urgency of the climate emergency we find ourselves in is great and we are too dependent on fossil fuels and we cannot regulate the price because it comes from outside we have an urgency we have a need to save as much money as we can we have to stop importing the oil and so that we can use something that uses electricity and we know how to make it green that is our our main strength they need to understand this they need to understand what this whole process involves they need to understand what it means to internalize the alternatives that we currently have if we I mean I just want to to make a comparison think about covid and the pandemic we had to invent some vaccines okay well in the context of climate emergency one of the most important vaccines is railways and they're already invented what we need to do is manage it differently what we need to do is change certain decisions not close so many lines and really bet on railways and not to understand railways as a as a dated old thing that is worthless because there is a false modernity that we have seen in these last 46 years where people thought that railways needed to be erased when actually they were the opportunity and the opportunity is here now knocking at our door with the funds that are available to us coming from Europe and I will finish by just sending one message just one message with regards to the connection where the european network for night trains in our document we say that we think that there should be a european operator who would manage those night trains all over europe it should not depend on the state on the member states the whole journeys should be guaranteed by europe not by the member states these competencies need to be transferred to the EU so that the EU can manage that network so that they can connect all countries i'm talking about night trains because right now Spain is not out it's it's outside of the planet with regards to any policy in Europe and if the if they do not impose it on us they will not do anything we're not doing anything for night trains in Spain and out and connecting Spain with the rest of Europe i'm sorry well thank you manel joseluis i'll give you the floor and we'll be done with that so i just wanted to explain to all the people present here today that citizen platforms really know that the political activity is being done with political parties not only are there trade union organizations in our platforms because all all trade unions are in our platform ujte comisiones sobre las intercindical semath i mean all trade unions are in our platform well we have five trade unions well additionally all the political organizations um who are in unidas podemos are in our platform so we have podemos alianza verde izquierda unida all of them are with us and in some territories we also have echo in our platforms so the array of a political organizations who participate in the platforms in the citizen platforms is representing the whole left wing except for the party that considers itself a left wing but then does not have a left wing policies so we do know that the parliament and parliament activity is very important because we're talking about transportation we're not talking about anything else we are trying to have an influence in transportation policies and we hoped to have some sort of public information procedure where we could have participated as a public platform but if there isn't that that that process if it's all in the parliament then we'll have to work with all the political organizations who are part of our platform um and who belong to unidas podemos want would you like to share some final words because it's already hapa seven please click on your microphone because we cannot hear you i'm sorry very quickly the law has to be read by the council of ministers and then there is a public participation process and then after the second reading it will be the draft will be approved and will be sent to the congress i have to say that in the congress in the processes for all laws there is a form that was the one that manel was referring to which is also important and we need to talk to the political parties so that during that that reading during that form those who come are usually i mean the political parties are the ones who decide who will come who won't come and there are quotas there are different percentages so it's important for the platforms to be there when the moment comes the platforms need to talk to the political parties so that those who participate in that form have a sustainable vision on transportation so that they don't invite people such as for instance for with climate change they invited Repsol and other oil companies so i'm saying this so that you are well informed because it's really important to really benefit from those for us so that we are there and can have our voices heard okay thank you so much thank you all so much we are now going to be closing i want to thank you all your participation i would like to thank the speakers for sharing your visions your proposals i think that this forum is really very useful so that we are all in touch so that we can have an exchange of perspectives and i hope that all of these proposals will be successful and they're they'll reach their station their final station and i will now give the floor to my colleague Raul Ometh so that he may conclude this series of webinars that ends here today with this train session these sessions will all be on youtube we will send you all an email once they're ready and available and with no further ado i bid you farewell until next time because i'm sure we will have the chance of meeting together again thank you all so much thank you thank you so much thank you lydia i hope you can hear me well well uh lydia has already thanked all speakers i also wanted to thank her thank you so much lydia for this wonderful moderation and i also wanted to thank the people you don't see but who make these sort of events possible we had matilde our translator i'm sure you heard her who did a wonderful job and then soli and deon and also lena for helping us making this possible and as a final comment i would like to say that there is something that has not been said because we were talking about a very serious aspect which is the fact that actually riding on the train is so pleasurable it's good for mental health as well and that also needs to be taken into account it's not the same thing going to work when you're in the traffic jam in your car then when you took the train to your job when you can be sitting down and comfortable so this session as we said is the third session so that we can close our our series on mobility in spain and as lydia said we will be sending you an email with the different links to the different videos once they have been edited and we will send you the link to the reports of the the different reports that have been mentioned such as manel's report and also with regards to the atlas that was published by the heinerich bol stiftung and we thank you all thank you so much we are really convinced that this was interesting and that we need more debates such as this one we are in a context of climate emergency and we need common sense to be present in transportation and all areas so thank you all so much for your participation