 Alun, yna'n ymlaen, ons yw i'n du yn cwrs yw'r ysgolion yn Alun Llyfr. Felly bydd yn fawr. Fel'r ydych chi, yr ymgyrch. Le'n yw i ddyn nhw'n ym ni'n gwneud wrth gweinwm''ch gwybodaeth. Mae ddigolol. Yn cael ei gweithio ar y dra. Mae hwn yw'r cyflog oddylu yn yr henen, dwy'n ddyn nhw'n ddiolch i'r rhywbeth. Yr y bry眾 yn Bratwch Eistreu, 25 mae'n cymrydau ac yn ei beth. Yn cael hwyl ein hefyd. Ond mae'n gwybod i'n ei wneud ond mae'r bwysig yn y mynd i'w cwestiynau, yna'n gweithio'r arfer, mae'n ddorol yr oed, ond byddai'n angen i'ch gael'i'r ystafell ar ystafell. Felly mae'n gweithio'r ffyrdd a'u gymryd i'w wneud i'n gweld i'r ffyrdiad o'r sefydliad, ac mae'n gweithio'r ystafell a'n eu cael ei fod yn ymgylch i'r arfer. Yr ffyrdiad, wrth gwrs. Mae'r gweithio'r Ymgylch yn Ileidol. 1,5 years of age because of a tumulus lifestyle with my parents, I was placing the care of the local authorities at 1,5 years of age up to the age of 10. So I was moved around a lot between children's homes, foster homes, etc. Eventually, when my father came to collect me when I was 10 years of age, I was in Liverpool then. So the Scouse twanger came out, I got a stick for that last time. But I couldn't be late to my parents because there was no connection, nature or nurtured. As a result of that, I kept on running away from home. I was apprehended by the police on numerous occasions, giving a slap on the wrist. But eventually, because of my behaviour, I was placed back in children's homes. And the last children's home that I was discharged from, because I was 16 years of age, was Mobley Boy School in Wimslow. And that's when my life began, so to speak, not necessarily on the right track, but it began. I came back home to my parents, but I was quite or standish with them. And I was quite rebellious in certain respects. I banded with the other lads on the estate. And like young teenagers, we got up to a lot of mischief. Being mischievous, adventurous at the same time. Which led to petty things, more or less. But unfortunately, these petty things that were taking place, when I say petty things, I mean going in shops and taking a fruit off the stands, climbing in through shop windows, stealing stupidity, stupid stuff. And on numerous occasions, I came to the police's attention. But again, slap on the wrist. And eventually, I left home, but I was a bit like a nomad, because I used to live with my friend, my sister, my friend, my sister. More or less homelessness, but yes and no. Because they still had a roof under me yet, regardless of me yet, I should say. But it wasn't lifestyle to live or be healthy with, to be perfectly honest. And eventually, I banded with a couple of lads on the estate, because now I was living in Cheetah Mill. And in one particular friend of mine, bless him, he died, was Cain. I met Cain when he was in Moble. And that's how we became friends in the later years. I met with him again in Cheetah Mill. So we just had that instant connection. But he already had friends in Cheetah Mill. And as a result of that, we banded, but it wasn't that type of like Pally Pally. And it resulted where we went out to commit a robbery. Not necessarily planned on the spur of the moment, I knew nothing about it, to be perfectly honest. I'll never forget, it was January 1981. I was sat in the house watching the Duke's of Azad, believe it or not, because outside it was freezing, it was cold. I didn't want to move from the comfort of the home. And that was Cain's house, was living with Cain at certain times. And Cain came in and said, you want to go and do a robbery? And that first reaction was, oh no, it's cold out there. Forget it mate, I'm not interested. But he played on me conscience, he's come down last again. And the conscience got the better of me and me loyalty and I went, okay, let's go. Met with the other blokes. We walked up to Wilton Polligan in Cheetah Mill and it resulted in two proprietors closing the jewelry shop, both going the separate ways. And my expectations as a teenager, I had expectations as a teenager, was like, oh, you must have something in the case. Handled where we followed him. And it wasn't me intention to actually become involved in any type of physical confrontation. Even though I had a knife on me. That knife was on me for a different purpose, to be perfectly honest, because here you had two secular societies. You had Cheetah Mill, you had Salford. And at that particular ear there, there was a lot of racism. And there's a road that separates these two states, so to speak. And it's called Waterloo Road. And on two occasions I was walking up Waterloo Road, cars pulled up, young lads got out, same ages myself with various forms of weapons. And obviously we were intent on doing serious damage to myself and Cain. And twice we ran. Now on the third occasion it happened, Cain didn't want to run. But I said we have to run, because they're going to give us a good hiding, possibly, you know, memos. But from that point on, and it was foolish of myself to be perfectly honest, I said I'm going to buy a knife. I'm not going to run no more. I'm not buying a knife for the purpose of committing any serious injury, but to ward off. Yeah, more than anything else. But that type of incident never occurred again, because the last thing I did with that knife was to put it in my pocket coat and forgot about it. And it was only when we were going to do this robbery on the shop that I just happened to pick that coat up. And I could say two proprietors went the separate ways, and as one was walking through Wilton Polligan, my member going up to him and systematically, as I attacked him on the shoulder, I just took the knife out and my words were to him, give us the brief, but before I finished saying give us the brief case, he started fighting with me and I completely forgot about that in my hand. And, you know, throughout the scuffle, throughout the fight, you know, and he was giving me a good item. At the same time, don't get me wrong. We fell down a couple of times because of the snow, because of the ice. And it resulted in that he received two stab wounds. Unbeknown to me that I actually stabbed him. The last thing I recollect, I can't say anything, last thing I recollect at the victim, as I was exiting Wilton Polligan, was him pushing himself down. So that gave me no indication that I'd done anything. And it was only later, as the evening was drawing in, that it came on the news and I put two and two together. So panic mode set in. I was still on the estate, but ducking and dying, because the police were after me now. And eventually, they did apprehend me. So how did you feel when you found out that it died? To tell you the truth, I was frightened. You know, nothing to glorify in it. I was frightened. My actions were foolish. I had no intention of actually killing anybody. Intentions of, you know, like warling off. I've got a weapon. Don't do anything, you know. But I was frightened. But at the same time, I was a bit sad and remorseful, because I thought, what have you done now? You know. And I knew that my fate had been sealed. You know, for whatever period, I didn't know at that specific time. But I knew I was going away for a long time. Did you go in the runner at that point? At that specific time, I was on the run for two days, but I was still in the same area ducking and diving. You're a young boy, don't you think? I was young. I didn't have finances. I didn't have connections to get out from the estate. I didn't know where I was going. So it was like my head was up my ass. And eventually, the police did apprehend me. On the Saturday it was. They apprehended me. They'd see me ducking and diving, but coming down the street towards them, whether we're all hiding. And then they just pounced on me. What was that feeling like when you got charged with murder? I was like, none. None. Yeah, none. You're going through a lot of motions, to be perfectly honest. Like I say, you're anxious. You're sad about the situation. You wish you could reverse the time. You're fearful of what's to come. But like I said, it's sealed. And you can't change nothing. Obviously, when you're rebellious and you do all these petty crimes when you're younger, it is a case of, it can stem from a lot of abandonment issues. You hang around with the bad boys because you're kind of getting that sort of family feeling and love where you want to fit in because you don't get it in the house. So you want to do the bad stuff and then obviously when something is bad, it happens like that then. That's when it all hits off. And you go fuck. Do you know what I mean? So was that the first time you'd ever been in prison? No, I've actually done two barstools. Two detention centres, two barstools. But in comparison to this, it was on petty stuff. You know, it doesn't just trap from the fact that he was petty. He was still crying, but on the lower level. Steaming cast, things like that, etc. But going to prison, going to prison for a lengthy time in comparison to going to detention centre for six months and barstools for nine months. You can't correlate it together because there you've got a realistic date of being released where being sentenced to life imprisonment you haven't got a realistic date. How was that at court then? How long did the trial run for? The trial lasted for them four days exactly to be perfectly honest. But I knew my fate was sealed. I couldn't, no matter how I presented myself and it was only a young lad so I tried to present myself to the best of my ability. I was quite shocked by the fact that the first time I've seen the photographs of the victim in the morgue was when I was stood in a stand and that sort of like... Makes it real? Well it does make it real but it sort of stuns you to see a victim laying prone on the morgue table you know not necessarily butchered by me but butchered by the people who are doing the autopsy it makes it ten times worse but you're aware that the jury are looking at these photographs and all and at the same time you feel so, so embarrassed that you want to crawl into the ground because you know you've done a terrible thing here but you can't change it no matter how much you play, how much you present your case you've done a serious crime so you have to pay the price there's no way out of it and you can offer all the apologies which I do, I regret what happened I resent what I've done you know like I said, if I could turn the time that wouldn't happen but you can't turn the time of course, hindsight is a great thing absolutely and it affected a lot of people not just myself and always touch on that, everything has a ripple effect not just about me it's about the victim and his next to kin you know who you do feel sorry for and also your family do the sentence with you as well my family were affected et cetera the people in the court were affected the juries because they need to see all the photos and again, that's why for anybody watching listening I know crime is on their eyes, drug related deaths are on their eyes and people to look in, big strong manager very well connected to show the empathy and the sadness and all the apologies, yes that's there but mentally it's always going to be there it's never going to go and anybody that says I dismiss it, I can switch off it they're telling your lies they're blanking it out because because we're all human beings we've all got emotions and for somebody to say I don't feel nothing whatsoever but if you really believe that unequivocally then that tells me your social path, psychopath there's no question about it so you're still a human being and if you're a human being you will have them in motions of course we've all got all sorts of different kinds of emotions and the people who try and block it out is the ones I believe are hurting the most because they don't want to face it but you face it and then was it 19? 19 19 so then you go to the big boys leagues where it's a different ball game from Bosto how was that feeling walking and was it strange ways went to strange ways but you have to differentiate between strange ways and the dispersal system different ball game dispersal system what's the difference the difference is that your local prisons are strange ways it's where a lot of people are doing a couple of days a couple of weeks, a couple of months short termers a lot of remands are going to be dispersed whereas when you go to the dispersal system they've been sentenced already some people in there are doing 30, 40, 50 years in definite life in very serious crimes they don't care who you are you know above there you could be the dumb you're not interested in who you are when you walk in there you're on the same footing as anybody else and if you try to keep yourself that you don't have to walk the line you're not going to survive because you will be dealt with because the minute you show any disrespect in any form or manner even just looking at somebody wrong there it's a confrontation and I know that because when I first went in the first prison I ever went to they had 70 dispersal systems prisons got myself and I started off in Wakefield and at that time I wasn't happy with Wakefield because it was classified as monster mansion or the beasts don't get me wrong you had straight lads there and on but you only had a minority with a majority with the other ones the wrong ones so it was a bad atmosphere the straight lads always stood together but I was in a lot of confrontations with the system there because I wasn't entirely comfortable with it and eventually I was dispersed out to a prison where I was comfortable under the right circumstances but nevertheless I was moved and I'm not saying everything from that point went perfectly fine it didn't because from the onset when I was in strange ways on me man this was my first day I was placed on the segregation unit and not just myself but Kane and as we were walking across the main fire unbeknown to us that the screws are set then on psychological rule don't walk across the main floor on the fire walk adjacent to the wall on the two tiles and as we were walking across the floor we were getting a barrage of abuse you know derogatory abuse and general abuse and I know it sounds like laughable but I didn't think it was directed at myself or Kane but it was Kane was placed in the cell on my left just as you enter more or less a couple of feet along and then I was taken right to the end in the segregation unit and as I was entering the cell a screw came behind me and punched me in the back of the head said you murdered in black bastard and the door was shut and I was only young and I was going through a lot of motions then toppled on top with the fact that I'd just been placed on my manforce series crime and it was my intentions to get any type of confrontation with anybody in the system didn't even enter my thought to be perfectly honest but as a result of doing that I had the butterflies I was anxious, I was scared That was the fate of fleet mode kicks in where you either set a flag and take off and fly, there's only one way out that cell and that's the door but something else in me went if this is the way it's going to be so be it and next time that door opened I came out fighting despite the numbers Was that the start of it for you then? and that's how it spiraled out of control Where you just go toe to toe and don't take any shit? No because from that point on from the next 13, 14 years it was me in the system So when you got life was that 15 minimum? No, life means 99 years you get a tariff all life is get a tariff, let me explain this Because England is different from Scotland I know In England when you receive a life sentence automatically on your prison record it says 99 years but every respective life it gets a tariff and a tariff is set by the judicial ie the judge and what that entails is that he's setting the tariff based on retribution and deterrence hypothetically because crimes don't take place once your sentence but you know you're going to serve up to that point whether that be a tariff of 10, 15, 20, 25 years, 30 years you have to serve up to that tariff because he's made that recommendation Once you reach that tariff period then it becomes executive decisions whether to release you that's where your problems begin because you're not being released on your tariff no life has ever been released on his tariff in history and you're dealing with face with bureaucrats Is that good behaviour kicking to play and other stuff that is it not matter? Well yes and no I mean I know life is that I mean I've got a friend of Newcastle at the moment and he's got released on about two years ago and he's 29 years and he done everything by the book but he's still served 29 years above his tariff and as he used to say to me in his correspondence since I've been out once you got released he said I feel like I'm going mad there now as you got to hold it together mate I know you've done everything you've done every course, every requirement you can't do no more but as I said to him he's just a game so just play the game with him and eventually he got out What did Cain get? My core cues was five of us Soon we got three one got three and a half Cain got five and that's where it all you started to realise right I need to fight back you had to grow up fast become an adult so how did it how did you get through the sentence because I know you've had a couple of escapes also and then obviously the riots you'll be rebellious you wanted change and the riots that you did do did get change eventually how far were you into your sentence once you started the riot in the chapel? Then between 10 to 10 and a half years then So even though the 10 and a half years because I know you've done 15 but then your sentence you ended up doing 32 So at the 10 and a half were you not thinking to yourself I need to keep my nose clean or were you at that stage where you couldn't give a fuck I wasn't really bothered to be perfectly honest because I still knew at that stage I wasn't going anywhere and I knew as a result of that not just my behaviour but that incident sealed my fate for a long time I wasn't kidding myself I like to be a realist Is that a part of your scared coming out as well? No on the contrary not to the contrary no chance when you're in there for all the years that I was inside prison I never had a television radio never had own comforts wasn't interest slept on the floor I had to slop out like anybody else Why is that? Well for the first 18 months that I was in prison ie Wakefield I had the comforts don't get me wrong and then on a particular day I just thought I don't want none of this I don't want pictures on me walls I don't want the quill in other words I don't want that I don't want it that doesn't make my life any better and even though I had them comforts I'd still been in confrontation with the system down the segregation on numerous occasions so what I'd done I just went right pat it all up threw it in a sheet dragged it out myself feel all the railing onto the safety net and remember shouting out anybody wants that take it and I walked back into an empty cell and that's how I lived from that day on my prison clothes and my few possessions in the bulk in the toiletries that was it and whatever book I got for 32 years that's how I lived that's how I lived the people think you were losing your mind probably yeah I had people objecting to the fact I screwed objects into the fact that I'm not complying with the regime but I was complying with the regime was that because you didn't want to accept anything from the system? I didn't want nothing from the system correct you know I want to show them that I don't want nothing from you where you can't take anything from me because you've got to remember everything in the system with the exception of visits and letters everything else is a privilege it can be moved like that they can try and break you from the outside but you didn't want to break me from the inside no correct I want to show that I'm in control and I carried that forward to the day I was released even in open prison so for 32 years you did all that to try that takes time going it does but you know you set yourself in that mode you know I mean some people from the outside I had a friend from Chicago he was serving 15 years and when he's seen how I used to live he said you know how do you live like that you know you got the basics in yourself you know and years down the line when I passed through a prison I had a conversation with a governor and she used to be a nun and when she seen myself she said even as a nun I had more in that room what you got in your cell I know the racial abuse for yourself was bad was that one of the main points that you didn't want to take anymore I wasn't prepared to put my head in the sand for anything regardless despite the odds and we aren't talking about the odds in prison because you know you dealing with the system here and I'd be perfectly honest with you anybody that thinks that going into the prison system that they're going to beat it you're not going to beat it you've got to be prepared to make sacrifices because that's what it comes down to because a lot bigger than you and how can I put it for the first number of years it was fisticuffs with him a lot of fisticuffs and don't get me wrong there was many many moments when it hurt but I wasn't prepared to show it to them that you'd hurt me because at the end of the day that annoyed them even more though that spurred them on to say you're basted but not with none of this but just quick your teeth because even in certain segregations when lads are being attacked by the mufty team and the screaming and a couple of lads used to get irate about it and said don't give them the satisfaction in your scream which is true because with all human beings we all feel pain, we all bleed but there's certain situations where you have to uphold your resolve and think now the 80s, 70s, 80s, 90s there's a boy actually in Scotland last week to just get beaten to death by the Scrooze ruthless, leave me in you I've always said that there's a book out many many years I read it and it was called Frank from my life and it's about all the deaths in prison that have taken place circumstances surrounding the deaths but when you read it it's too obvious but if you're looking throughout history the British prison system and not one prison ward has ever been killed not one, there's one prison work screw being killed but not one prison ward but in comparison to all the prisoners who have been killed there's a lot of death swept under the car of course but the act that can be brutal believe me in you brutal how close are there for you from beatings? I'd say the worst one the worst one that they ever done to me although our can separate them he's beyond me because they all kind of the same Is that that many? Believe me it could be it all week telling you but when people read the book they'll see it for its entirety but I remember that time when I was passing through Whitemore and it was over it was over people wearing their unclothes but I didn't wear my unclothes but they wanted to communicate his t-shirt off me but it wasn't a prison t-shirt it was theirs I think they just wanted to have a confrontation so they came in, multi-team and all that we're having it out and as a result of that there was water on the floor because the sink had been broke and he had a ledge just under the doorway and it was filling up with water at the same time all this is going on we're there for a good 15-20 minutes having it out and when they've got eventually got me down happy ending me they were trying to hold me under that water I knew what they were up to but luckily because I'm a strong bloke I was able to get out of it What were you then at your strongest? I've been furious forms of waiting prison to see if my weight goes up, down, up, down depending on the circumstances Did you bold yourself up so big as well so you could fight back? No, that had nothing to do with it to be perfectly honest No, because when I first went into prison I must have been around about 12, 11 still So precisely size is relevant it's what's in your heart and mind that counts but it enabled me to get out in certain scuffles with them to make them back off but when you're outnumbered eventually your engine's going to give in I think they're lost cause though aren't they? Of course you are, you can fight as much as you want but as I used to say to them I used to say to them they're all stood there in the right gear whatever, well this separates the man from the mice then let's go for it that's all I need to say and some of the most thing look at all of us that you had buzz as well though because you had fuckall in yourself did that kind of get you through it just fighting back and gave you a wee bit of purpose because they were trying to bait you so much get me alive and the reason why I say that because when I went to Hall in the 90s, psychology's asked me the question that nobody's ever asked she says does your anger and by all the conflict she's gone through in the prison system do you think that kept you alive? your therapy? I said because it kept me stimulus going me adrenaline going the main fact that you moved me from one establishment to another establishment I'm not stagnating all them years in one cell I'm being moved around as crazy as it sounds if you didn't do that then they've won, in your mind they've won if you stop fighting against them they've won and then for that you start breaking inside you succumb to their their rules and regulations their wins, yeah and I wasn't prepared to go to that level you know, I'm better than that and I wasn't entirely comfortable by doing what I'm doing you know, I was like no not again but hey bollocks do you, let's go because I'm not prepared to put my head down I mean I put it in his context when I went through Durham once I was in there strip cell for the full week and that was after and I didn't go in there with the intentions of fighting by the way, Durham I was just passing through for the weekend and I was going to another establishment and they wanted to put me in a cell with another prisoner who was serving two months and I went I'm not going in there I said take me to the second I walked to the second so I got me a pill of case made me a coastal aid of plastic whatever and I walked down to the second and I walked down the steps and they went right put me in that cell there put me in the cell and I thought I'll bollocks so I'll smash the cell up and I went right bollocks so we had it out et cetera and the air multi team come in had no clothes on got it out then just got the better of me carried me up to something to D wing and it was the old strip cell on the end of D wing and threw me in there and it was there full week and there was roaches coming under the door at night time it was freezing because it was like the outer outer strip cell, outer wall and yeah from the onset and then coming with my food they'll open the door and they'll go or spit me food right and they'll throw it on the floor that went on for the full week now bearing in mind that I'm in the body belt because they put me in the body belts I've got no clothes on so I'm defocating and pissing down my legs and shitting anywhere on the floor it's like a straight jacket basically but I still like my food because it's the battle of willpower it's mould survival I'm showing them I'm going to beat you regardless of the circumstance what you throw against me because if it would have given in they would have all been rubbing their hands thinking looking in the softest shouts I'm showing you the end of the day that I'm prepared to walk the war as simple as that and you can do what you want to do yeah it's fucking crazy the shit that went on in there obviously strange ways as well I think the population was 900 but they had nearly 1700 in the prison no the population at that time when he came talking was 1668 prisoners he was only designed for 900 prisoners yeah that's crazy see when you started the riot was there a massive plan for that no don't get me wrong it was sort of like pre-plan to degree the week lead not to it but I didn't think nobody expected to go for the length of time it did the biggest in British history that's the thing that stunned everybody and it went global the whole world knew about it yes but the reason why it went on that length of time because the poll tax riots and I firmly believe that because when I was being interviewed I remember turning around to them and said let me tell you something you deliberately let this riot continue and they all went what you mean I said what happened the previous evening down London and they were all scratching their thinking what's he on about I said the poll tax riots, Trafalgar Square and they said just by coincidence that the following morning one of the biggest prisons in this country kicks off just by coincidence so all the attraction all the limelight went from that to that I said because which is more containable a riot behind walls or riot on the streets so when that happened in the chapel when the riot first started how many people were in it I can't give you a specific number I can guess I'd say around about 300 prisons is the beast in there as well? no no now every Sunday the beast used to go to that chapel on the right hand side at the top mainly from C wing and E wing on this particular day it wasn't in attendance now from reading the depositions I came across a notification that from across that to the wall it was going to kick off in the chapel to someone's thought you's in? well it didn't stick us in but informed that something's going to happen in the chapel and it's going to kick off so what's happened the wardens have gone to the sect advancing you're not going to chapel today we can't go because it's going to be trouble some of the sect advancing I want to go to the chapel and say well you're not going but what they've done the ones on C wing as soon as he kicks off in the chapel they got rid of them got them out of the building immediately the E wing on the falls how many of them was there? the ones on the wing were about 54 or 56 the scary thing is if they kept in there they'd probably all been dead they were kept in the ones on the E wing so the ones that were in the chapel got out? right they were in attendance they were confined behind themselves the ones on C wing no sect defenders went to the chapel let me get this straight no sect defenders were in attendance because of the warning some were notified so the ones on C wing as soon as he kicks off in the chapel they got rid of them out of the building but the ones on E wing they left them now I feel we've left them to the faith now that I'm bothered the sect defenders so as a result when it kicks off and they got the keys and those were being open the sect defenders on E wing were all being battered the cell doors were being wrenched off whatever you know and items were taking place retribution for the crowds with info you know not that I feel sorry two people lost their lives during this right? two people lost their lives right? was that sect defenders? one was a sect defender called Derek White multiple multiple forms of how can I put it rape against children now the reason why I say that because I had access to their anti-seidants all of them because I want to know them they're all giving everything to them I want to know them all so it wasn't a pretty thing the Jews have everybody's files basically the files but the police have an anti-seidant on you so if I'm a solicitor I ask for it and give me a rundown of what you've been in prison what you've been charged with throughout the years and multiple times went on and went on and went on the list so we got a good hiding as a result of what he was in prison for now I didn't touch no sect defender I wasn't interested in them unfortunately I was charged with his death you charged with another murder? I was charged with his death that Derek White's sect defender he died from natural causes from a blood clot behind his left knee but he did get a good hiding but it was another prisoner that accused me attacking him saying that they see me attacking him so that's how much bullshit was going on but luckily for me a QC did a third autopsy on him independent autopsy and found the blood clot that killed him and that's how he died and all charges were dismissed the other person that died was a screw but he died from a natural cause a heart attack through the riots not because of anybody third hand just a natural cause a heart attack because of the beatings the screws put out and you see if they did die by getting a beating from the cons would have mattered more revenge obviously from the screws I knew that the screws eventually when the lads were going now my friends got up my self got apprehended they couldn't go over the top with the beatings because it now had begun on that many days was under the microscope because it changed the whole system you don't you you were the main negotiator you had to go and negotiate stuff when did you start realising how big it got how many days into the from the onset because obviously we took discussion of taking place conservatively and it was about the disconsent within the prison system strange ways but the prison system on the old you know and that the message has to be put out that this type of behaviour these type of conditions cannot continue you know not in this day and age what were you negotiating the first time you went down basically it was about well the first time we went down our concerns was about prisoners you know if prisoners are going to come out willingly which they have the entitlement to do so and that they're not going to be touched we want that security and assurity assurity I should say for somebody else because somebody criticized me about using the word assurity but they got it wrong that was our main concerns although the undercurrent was about the rights of conditions shrews behaviour et cetera their concerns was about the YPs young prisoners now I understand that because the William lads just caught up in it hyped up in it egos store it to tell their friends when they get out precisely eventually when it all curls down it is still there and reality might sit in for some of them to think look the other one are going though especially people it was all LTPs it was all long term prisoners I was a people doing one year two year it was a mixture so people could have potentially got more onto their sentence absolutely how were you feeling getting down for the first time to negotiate you're not thinking they're going to fucking jump me here yeah of course they did so why did you why was that again right again you got to understand sorry you got to understand that it's an incident right and in any given incident you got to have negotiations and the reason why I say that because if if nobody went down to negotiating and they all just got fobbed off it would have all been for nothing the press would have had a few days look at these idiots they don't know why they're writing they're just writing for the namesake and I didn't want to distract from the point that it was about the conditions the inhumane conditions and the injustice of how people are treated this is what it was about and and how can I put it that was carried forward all the way through by myself regardless and as you know result of that the wolf inquiry came into play right near the end and hence it did radicalise the old system for the better so once you were doing the right it's the place to cut off all the electricity yeah everything they were playing music outside yeah outside from the onset what was all that about? that was to stop people conversing with the press across the way on south wall street there's warehouses retail warehouses and they were all on top of the roof there many months and solicitors had one of these retail warehouses but it was a solicitors firm facing the old gate house so a lot of press was on there so they didn't want prisoners and press conversing and exchanging what it was about so they drowned them out with music or bladding of the owns and I was calling across a couple of times but it can be a bit heavy on that so what about food then how was your surprise? let me tell you about food there was plenty of food in the kitchen tin stuff plenty how long do you think that could have lasted for? that could have lasted for quite a while in actual fact when you have all the other stuff like frozen stuff like meat eggs et cetera you have to be a bit more precautious with it because some and other food poisoning stuff and one of the lads did get some and other poisoning on the 10th seeing them being stretched out but that's because the tin of corn beef left it and it went back to it a couple of days later in fact doing that but we had plenty of supplies there also from the canteen what was left and rounded them up for the first week I must admit for the first week on my first time into that kitchen I found all the steaks and chops and I'm talking about multiple tubes of meat meat I've never seen in my life but meat that we don't get while you're in there and that's all I lived on all the lads for the full week steak and chops and I looked it obviously when you did the right it's because they had put you through the racial abuse the physical abuse to take over a prison that is the worst thing you can do to the governor to the screws for you how are you feeling as if to say fuck you two is up I've eventually won this fight yeah of course I mean you do get a buzz about it you know because to put it in its context all them prisoners from the onset it must have been a vestige of freedom because you had a pent up frustration that anger that annoyance being locked in your cell all day all you're seeing is locks bolts, bars and mortar that's all you're seeing now you can go anywhere you want in the building you can go on the roof see the world so it's like letting letting our little dog out into the background there he loves it that's what we're like but that was short lived because it still comes down to what's it about you can frolic about much as you want but you can't distract from what the incident is about you need a line product the thing that I found sad about it on the first day and the second day I'm talking about the evening is that the canteen have been raided the healthcare medical centre on the wing where they distribute the medication have been raided people fill out my effort though on sleeping tablets I don't know what all sorts but the thing that astounded me and sort of like I rated me was that the lads in the evening were throwing all the all the stuff from the canteen which they felt they didn't want over the landing and I thought what are you doing this is stuff you don't even get now you're disregarding it as you say I don't need that now so that's why hence me myself and a couple of others went to the canteen around the rest of the stock went no we need this so when did you start getting your add-ons in for sentences was that did you ever get an extra sentence for the riot I got 10 years 10 years I got and the reason why I say 10 years is because up until that point you know nobody been done for riot throughout history you look at history you have to be done collectively but nobody has and it was being portrayed in the papers that by the POA members these fellows should get 10 years they did not say there was 20 body bags went in straight away the first day they fought them 20 days nonsense I mean couples were quite angry about that because that was portrayed by the press the mainstream press and that was far from the truth because you made it clear you never throw any bricks you never set anything on fire so why did you get the biggest one the only thing I done which I can hold my hands up to believe it or not was knocking the main partition wall down on the roof you know I was knocking it down and the reason why I knocked that down so I could walk up and down it for safety purposes and that was my reason but as for throwing any missile no I wasn't foolish enough to do that because I know the minute I had done that they got me even though they got me anyway but they got me more so now because he would have been classified as a lethal weapon you know being alive since his prison there that has repercussions serious repercussions so how did you get caught then once the riots were coming to an end? I got apprehended right and my own fault I became complacent and what happened as the days were going on I went down on several occasions to negotiate with POA members and on this particular day the sun came out so I was just soaking up with sun the rays and it was John Joel he poked his head up and he said I said okay I'll be down in a minute but I didn't want to go down but I thought well I have to go down so as I'm working my way down he clearly shouts be careful because they don't fucking trust him so I climbed all the way down because everything was a wreck inside I mean it was all of its own in jail so all the staircases etc we made a cast iron or a gun or smashed so I jumped down onto Ewing the bottom and the old hospital complex was in the case I've gone to the gate and there was two warders from there one was called Tate and one was called Jones Tate was from Hull Jones was from Manchester we did a little exchange and then all of a sudden he did something with his body momentarily and I but I clots it and I thought and as a batch away from the gate all the cell doors all the way the full length of the landing and even behind me opened and all the right squads come out so I'll know my way back up was yeah it's gone, no chance Did you not notice that going down the way? No my thought, the reason why I said that I became complacent because when I've dropped down upon reflection I should have seen that all the debris on the landing had been moved away and I didn't if I'd seen that there's no where to come down I don't want to went now but it's obviously they went on a month you're probably glad at the end that it came to a head how long do you think it could have went on for? Let's be perfectly honest right a lot of people are aware of this 200 times I negotiated with the POA members they used to ask me when I'm coming out from the onset and I clearly stated I'm not coming out, you're going to have to come in and get me they always let me back in Why's that? I think it may be based on the fact that they had to have somebody that they could negotiate with Fairly on good faith, yeah somebody was a bit more sensible in that respect not like hot-edded and I also firmly believe that if they wouldn't have me from the onset then that would have given clear evidence to others that we're not going to negotiate reviews More of a danger more of a risk Of course but let's not kid ourselves even though we're negotiating we're still at loggerheads with each other I don't trust you and you don't trust me in reality you know but somewhere along the line we have to show faith but it's based on falseness So you've had a couple of you've made your stories unreal if I'm honest over 60 podcast this is up there one of the best but the story wise obviously it's sad as well but it's a the story is unbelievable mate obviously you're trying to make it into a film as well what you all get to do what you all do eventually you've touched it into a book cos you had a couple of escapes also Yes How did that come about the first one? Was that before the riots or after? That was one of the trials Believe it or not That was before so I kept myself from mixing it with the second one and what happened they dispersed me to the police station in Bolton called Ashley Bridge police station They put me in a single cell on my own on the ladies side moved all the ladies out but all the men went on the other side but every morning they used to take me all the way around past the sergeants desk to get a shower now a lot of people have to understand this and I'll try and pick the picture for you there's two sets of keys in the containment down below you have a bunch, I have a bunch we're not allowed outside that floor when I had to look after the prisoners do whatever we have to do down below whilst you took me from my shower the other officer, this officer he's searching myself doing whatever he's doing with other prisoners but I know he's searching himself because he used to leave things in a certain way, I'm going to come back and they've been disturbed and on this particular morning I've come back and bearing in mind that to get to that shower I've locked my cell door through one gate, through two gate past the sergeants desk through another two gates now I've come back, escorted back the same way when he's unlocked my cell door I walked in and the windowsill was directly in front of me and on the windowsill was a bunch of keys what bunch of keys, I don't know how that's a specific moment but I know it's a bunch of keys and as I've gone in he's closed the door, he said you've got everything now Mr Lord and he shut the door as soon as he shut that door I grabbed the keys and I hit the keys under the toilet, put my hand in and there was a little shelf at the back at the top of it and I got him in but what I was expecting during the change over at 4 o'clock was the biggest commotion in the world and it was nothing, it was definitely quiet and I thought maybe half an hour later at 4 o'clock they will no, 5 o'clock they will, no, nothing I was expecting that police station to be locked down and turned over I was expecting keystone cops to come running out of the cell and rip it to shreds, nothing which was surprising because what crossed my mind of four, how did you to go off duty, hand over your bunch of keys for the next two that are coming on I felt relieved it was a setup no doubt about it I felt relieved that they were expecting me to be brash about it go that evening but they were standing off waiting so they could do what they had to do with me I want to say a beat I say possibly take me out of the equation completely and the reason why I say that because up to the point I got apprehended on the first escape I got feedback from a friend of mine in Newcastle when they raided the house that one of the teams said as soon as we get them we are going to fucking waste them because you became such auditions yes but I had them keys for five weeks five weeks in that cell and luckily for me the will cut was on so their interest was more than the will cut what teams were playing and from the onset I entered that police station they used to leave my hatch down they used to come and check me every 15 minutes then he went to 20 half an hour three quarters of an hour and later and later but when the will cut started it got even less when I had the bunch of keys like I said I didn't know what they were for but when I knew they were watching whatever I started coming out the cell hoping the cell door calls it there I know it sounds like it sounds but it is and one person seemed to comment said I can't see him how can he have the bunch of keys he would have killed everybody in the police station I would have killed everybody in the police station me intent would have been to escape not go round committing mayhem in the police station but the mere fact they did leave the bunch of keys and he opened me cell door one key opened the gates but that's as far as I got and I was a bit concerned about that because I thought well I've got these but here's the main door now to go on to the front of the building and that was adjacent to where they bring in the visitors to go into the the Empire Titian Room for the visitors and on the day I went it was a Sunday I went round going that's it it was early hours in the morning in other words and I had me on clothes then by the way I had a sleeping bag I puffed it up like I was asleep and left the book inside and left everything in that cell as it was and went through the gate went through the gate and the side where I used to go from my visit I went behind the door and by going behind the door looking through it I could see behind the sergeant's desk and watching the television and if I come from behind the door and look down to my left I could see them watching the television in the office down there but the door adjacent to where the visitors coming to go from that door into that door to talk to me for the glass that was the main door and it was just by coincidence believe it or not and the back doors were open and this is where they bring in the detainees and don't need to brought in but I remember clearly it was a WPC and she clearly said to the sergeant can you buzz me through and that was the door there and I thought right but I'm behind the door here now and the door's there and I thought right and as he buzzed me through I come from behind the door and just as the door was about to short put me two fingers on it and stops me from closing too and I went through into it and I was liking the fire and he was the door in front a door to the left and a door to the right and the door behind that had just come in I went straight over to the door in front he was a glass in it and I looked through and it was back of the back of the police station resting area canteen etc but I could see the glass leading to the outside world and on my left hand side the door in there was power points but the door on the right had a metal plate so I presume that was the front of the police station where they bring in the visitors so I thought what am I going to do here I'm stuck in here there's no cameras there's nothing so I'm panicking a bit but I'm not panicking and I looked through the door again the glass and I see the WPC coming back so I'm going in the door on the left hand side with the power points got behind the door and I'm behind the door but this door now is sort of like in front of me but more to me right she's come through and just as she's passed I come from behind the door and again put my fingers on it stopping closing too and she's just there behind me just matter of feet so no sooner she's gone through that door I've gone through that door and now I'm in that area I went straight over to the fridge drank their milk first time drinking your milk and it was time to go but just as I was going towards the back of the exit I see the door on the right and there was a book there and that was there book signing in and signing out and I was going to put in it Lord signing off but I thought no leave it and went out the back door and I remember running down back of the path crossing the road going into a field and I stood in the field and I had the two keys on me right out of the bunch of keys and I remember throwing them in there and shouting freedom but I didn't have a clue where I was going to tell you the truth you know I was like an endless chicken I thought where do I go I thought I was in Bolton but I've never been Bolton before in my life and I just thought just play it by chance just go for it and I took off and I remember I ran across the field eventually I come to an eye wall climbed that, scaled it went through a graveyard scaled another wall went down the embankment and come across the stream went across the stream fell into it but just laughed it off went up another embankment and up on the railway tracks what which way do I go left to do I go right instinct just went just go left and I ran all the way from Bolton all the way down to Southport on the tracks and that was that you three man how long were you on the run for 4 days in total and how was that feeling for you is how can I put it it's like a weight lifted off you it's cat and mouse poking dagger stuff now in reality because I know the end of the day they've got all their resources out looking for me you know be all over the news the papers I'm all over the news spread over the front pages etc but that wasn't my concern my concern was trying to keep me edlo I was in a couple of safe houses but I was entirely happy I remember once one of was in and the other copter was over there boving a panic on the phone just my pardon are you but I remember saying to the bloke I said you need to transfer me out I feel that helicopter is on me nonsense but but eventually I was placed in another safe house and actually the contact was made with this person you had a 40 foot cruiser and so I got all my finances all my funds together etc what was your plan to get out of the country? to get out of the country absolutely there's no way I could remain in this country because I would have to remain underground forever the person that had the finances but had the necessity to get me out of the country via boats you want to pick it up 18 men sensible people not nonsense sensible people when I met her in Manchester Dustin bring her back straight away did a couple of reconnaissance around the streets make sure I'm not being followed land or air eventually when they got back to Liverpool did the same again when they thought everything was alright dispersed and brought to the house I was leaving this country or made my way to the port at 5211 I sat there just on a general chit chat and I remember saying to prior to the house what mentioned his name I said I'll be gone soon he said well I'm going out and you won't be here anyway I said thank you very much all the provisions we put in the car at 5211 I heard the helicopter and you know when you just know and I thought that's low that's flat that's coming here and as soon as these thoughts crossed my mind it was above the house and as soon as that was above the house I'm up anyway I'm making my way to the back door because as I said to him if he comes on top I'm going through your window he said do what you want to do well I was up I've died through the back window didn't open the door just died through the back window even a bit of frame come out hit the back yard I was conscious of glass door to be perfectly honest yeah absolutely I did cut myself eventually anyway and I ran to the back of the yard to scale the wall but now it's right above me the helicopter would be basically fucked I think I lost well yes and no because it was like a bit of theatrical play to be honest all sorts of happening here generally going determinations going and I remember I ran to the right hand side of the wall I scaled it and it was all plain clothes and uniformed in the back yard one ran at me it looked like a pickaxe handle you asked me so I dropped down again I went to the left hand side of the wall but I was expecting it now so I've scaled it as fast as I can and a joint to the left hand side of the wall is a coal bunker so as I scale the wall I hit the top of the coal bunker and all I got on top of that and I'm still on top of it all coppers there 64 65 coppers surround that house and response and response for there yeah not to shank yourself in case of the popter no because I knew people across the way and yeah what you call it the wall at the window behind me just like the feet at the window and one climbed on the wall and ran plain clothes but he had the side arm he went come on Lord he give himself up and I went fuck off you bunch of bastards and I ran across the left hand side of the top wall ran across it and I launched myself from that top wall over the alleyway onto the next house and come dropped into there back yard and then it was off through the windows and I went through six houses like that through the back window the glass and I'd be perfectly honest you're lucky you survived that I never cut any arteries of well I cut my legs I've got loads of kilos on my legs scraping the glass as I'm going through well I did feel it at the time to be honest because the dren was poking but what surprised me was the height I didn't think that I was that high I was quite short in actual fact but because the dren was low I just went for it and the first house that I went through I remember hitting the table crashing on the table and he was a bloke and he sort of like went back in his chair and the lady sort of like but I didn't stop it was the momentum kept me going forward I found the front door and rather than open the front door it would have been a really simple task I went smashing right through the old glass frame everything and I ran across the street and it did exactly the same to the other four houses just kept going five houses kept going Do you think somebody stopped yun for your safe house? Right but I come to that well the person who had the bolt we reckon she had a tracker on her Yeah Absolutely So where did you go when you got captured then? You took me to a police station in Liverpool What police station? They don't know to be perfectly honest so there's not even a police station Did you get to hospital or anything for your cuts? They wanted to examine me cuts in the police station but I fucked them off and went to school It wasn't interesting you know what I mean because that was me being consumatious that means we balancing in authority and I didn't want them to see that I want anything from you I don't need nothing from you go away kept me there overnight and then moved back to the prison system following me day Strange ways? No this time they took me to Whitefield When did you start then tracking screwing that and going right I don't want to fight a laws cause I don't want to die in here was there a point it turned your life around and says was there a catalyst to go right and get myself head clear and get out I want out of here? Absolutely and we don't get me wrong even though it turned and they had this argument because we go out at the probation service cause they had to do a little confidence in front of them and I said when you've been treating such a manner you know you turn animalistic she said I don't agree with that turn that you actually that I said well you can't comprehend it to get in my shoes you know but you do turn animalistic but at the same time when you have your moments where there's no confrontation everything's quelled down don't get me wrong I had me points I had me moments where I was in certain prisons where I was getting on with it but for whatever period he was short lived he was long lived whatever and sometimes you do think bloody hell I can do it out of this again but your pride gets the better of you your determination your principles your values you think no I'm not having it because you know Was there a time you would have died then there then? I feel they believed it I feel they believed it Is that not scared you though? No it doesn't scare me no I mean to tell you the truth right nobody likes to die but as I keep saying to you I'm neater you know I'm not bothered to die or die and the reason why I say that because I had a good friend in Liverpool and he developed a tumour behind his eye and he's in his 70s and as he said Alan I don't care I've had a good life I'm happy that's all that matters deaf smile is too small it comes around too small so I'll just take it on the chin people do feel sorry for young kids you know get cancer things like that absolutely they've had a chance in life but there's moments that did cross my mind but at the end of the day I knew I had to change tactics because I thought I'd create my own calamity here to a degree I'm giving what they want even though they're precipitating my behaviour which they are you know they're antagonising me they're being racial, abusive in certain establishments I'm not going to sit back and take it on the chin but then it comes to a point okay if I keep doing this I'm staying in here and then they will eventually win they won yeah absolutely and the last time I had a confrontation with him was 1997 long lasting 20 years ago long lasting that was my concept didn't like it scuffy establishment we were mixed with the sex offenders from F-wing you know which I didn't agree with and that annoyed me because just certain people in there you know give it all the margin you know you're talking to him what you're talking to him for but I wouldn't comply you know all they want is a bank prison up in the day except you know I'll be free I said I'm not banging up the day I've been banged up all night with the PIs they won't let me in the gym do any training and then on this particular day the C&R team come from the right squad and most of all I said you going I said right let's go got escorted to the seg outnumbered like crocker roaches in their nest and I said well what's the reason for being shipped out he said due to other prisoners behaviour in a words I'm influencing other prisoners in what manner am I influencing other prisoners I made my own respective decisions I did my own thing so I remember took my clothes off and he was a prison green blanket and I made it all in it put it on me like a punch or like Clint Eastwood you know and then what happened as soon as I put that on this was the naughty part as soon as I put the ankles on me and then he walked me to the van and I thought I bought this to this as soon as I got in the van I closed the van door behind me I locked it and I smashed everything in that van it took me a while but it didn't because it was hurting with the ratchets on and there's more C&R coming round the van they're bringing the dogs they're bringing governors border visitors the medical nurses staff were all there and eventually I made a pathway two lines from the building to the van door and walked up to one of the C&R and he got on the little step to get into the van and he said right Lord we'll open this door we'll set the dog in you said do what you want to do unlocked the door packed off I've opened the door myself I jumped down and nobody ran at me walked along the path but you could cut the atmosphere it was like holding a load of pit bulls back wasn't it and next minute walked into the building itself and as soon as I got in the building all over me bouncing all over me absolutely one particular one was Charlie I know he was trying to break me wrist bend it back far as he can don't get me wrong, get hurt but again you don't show them how it hurts and then after whatever period he took me to the strip cell threw me in there and I was in there for about half an hour three quarters of an hour then the door opened again and he said you're being moved now and I remember clearly saying to him I looked to him and he was sitting in the camera looking at that strip cell door I said oh you're brutality I'll be on camera he said oh not me but in fact they've all got these vises on helmets so you can't tell them anyway and he was a board of visitors there a woman I shouldn't say it but I'll say it I said see you you bitch I love you in court and all she sort of smirked and as I vented the building to get into the van the governor was there and I remember saying to him I said see you I said I love you up in court and all and he laughed and next minute I said that they grabbed me again and they tied me feet up and they put me in the van in the box so I managed to put me on the floor but I managed to slide myself up so to speak and off we were to Woodhill and unbeknown to me at that time the scene art team, the right squad team followed the van down from Longlarton you know unbeknown to me that practice is very unethical because I've never known them to follow a van down to another prison if you've been ghosted it's up to the other prison to give you the benefit of the downs but they didn't don't want to take that risk it could be a possibility but I think it was antagonism because as soon as we pull up in Woodhill I see all the scene art going past so I remember saying to him I like that is it, we'll fucking sort this out then van door is open as soon as it's open they grab over me tried me into the strip cell but he can't do nothing closed the door and I'm kicking the door now because they took that off my leg but they've left them, I'm kicking the door and I'm shouting like open this door there's a lot of years I can't respect the way it's tuned the government had come to the door from that establishment and he said lordy I don't know what the fuck's going on so I knew he was genuine because he was like what's going on here and I must admit that Woodhill was alright with me left me be so coming to the latter stages here 20 odd years in prison did you ever get a release date? no no always not back always not back, I wasn't expecting nothing so eventually after the 32 years when you got it, how was that feeling when you eventually getting released I think there's no reaction to tell you the truth just blank, you shot no, I wasn't shot I didn't show any emotion to be honest I didn't grow about it I didn't laugh about it I didn't smirk about it I didn't think I got one over here I just looked at what's happened to the thing how was it standing outside a prison for the first time in 32 years free man? that was good because I know now I wasn't confined that's the difference I knew that there's only one way I'm going down that road you know but I was shot that I got parole but I only got parole and even though I changed tactics don't get me wrong, let's put this in context even though I changed tactics in 1997 from fisty cws to pen on paper and I did not believe for one moment that the pen was mighty in the sword until I took it up it didn't get me out immediately it still served years on top but what it did do for me it gave me the capacity to take up issues with the prison system in the right way more political more political, yes so if you didn't do that there's a good chance you'd probably still be in and it's still been in did you educate yourself well then in there to obviously try and beat the system through brains both come back together you can't have one without the other it's alright saying that you can educate yourself keep your faculties there but you have to keep both faculties there mental and physical because it's alright saying get me mental faculties there but my body's gone but it's great as soon as you came out you opened up your gym and now you help other people also it's great the fact that you've stayed on 17 years in December, is that correct? you've wrote your book where's that piece of paper still which we'll touch on, we'll show people the link this is your book here Life in Strange Ways what was the book at the bottom? Life in Strange Ways my 32 years behind bars from riot to redemption which is great words by the way I've not read the book yet but I'm going to get into about it so where can people buy this book? you can get the book on Amazon Kingdom W. W. Smith which we'll leave the links the stories I've had many people on this podcast but this is up there the one and the best your stories unbelievable I've got to know you quite well you're very honest man which takes a lot of respect as well especially through the stuff you've been through so now you're trying to make the book into a film which I believe would be massive and fingers crossed that happens sooner rather than later so from now moving forward for the future with yourself Alan what's the plans? the plan is that I won't just stay out enjoying my life you know what I mean stay just enjoying my life I mean whatever life span I have remaining I intend to enjoy it and the main fact even if I didn't have these own comforts which I have I still enjoy my life because I'd rather be out here with nothing being there and that is the difference that's what separates it from being normal you know the way I behaved in there was a necessity I don't have to behave like that out here now you know I'm being treated out I should be treated as a human being you mainly civil so you you portray that back you convey it back you know and this is what I used to say to psychologists inside there how you treat me right I'll treat you the same and how you how could I put it one psychologist said to me that why do you behave the way you behave it said because the system treats me in such a way that doesn't make you behave that way I said of course it does I said this is normal the way and she gave me analogy and the analogy being is she said and I go from my breakfast that morning and the screws are all laughing smirking and when they had me plate I've only got half a sausage, half an egg, half a bacon do you continue with that and go back to me sell don't feel well at the next morning it may be a quarter of that half I'll do a nip it in the bud a nip it in the bud because I know the end of the day by nipping that in the bud it's not a question of right or wrong it's a question of showing them that if I nip it in the bud because you open the sassle every morning so do you think if you get treated better by the screws you wouldn't have done half the stuff that you had done to fight back and make an example and I think it's great that is the beauty of life Alan no matter what you've done we've all made mistakes some people make mistakes worse than others but the beauty of life is people can change you can change your path in life you can learn from your mistakes you can speak to other kids who maybe go to prison in jails to tell them to not do the same mistakes that you did you can also the 32 years is a long time but you can also save kids who are doing the same mistakes so you're also saving lives which is a again it's a powerful thing you've got a lot of respect you're very well respected your books out and for me coming into your housing hearing your stories has been unbelievable I really appreciate it and all the best for the future Alan you too thank you very much