 Thank you. Thank you. It's always better to start off with a little applause. Thanks for having me. I feel very honored to be here and be able to speak about one of my favorite topics today with you with another community that has a lot to offer. Like I talked with Lidia before and I read a lot about what you're doing and I find it pretty intriguing. And so thanks for having me. I'm Claudia Agarra. I'm the Executive Director of Wikimedia Austria, which is the local chapter of the Wikiverse. So we support the volunteers that work for Wikipedia and her sister projects here in Austria. Mainly we work closely together with Wikimedia Germany, where Lidia works for example, and the Central and Eastern European communities on the other side. So this is where I come from. This is what I do. And I'm here today to talk a bit about the welcoming culture in our projects and the Wikimedia projects. And perhaps the one or the other idea or one or the other things that we learned the last couple of years that we tried might also be interesting for you because as I heard like one of those three goals is onboarding newcomers and I think welcoming culture and newcomers need to go together very well. So Wikipedia, I think everybody in this room knows what Wikipedia is, right? So I don't have to ask this question. So if we see this iconic W, this is what for us is what the Encyclopedia nowadays looks like. It's our version of what used to be the Bokhaus in the German speaking world or the Encyclopedia Britannica in the Anglophone world before. It's a website where everybody can access knowledge at any time on their mobile phones, on their computers. And I don't have to say that to you because you're a community yourself but to many people I talked to it's actually kind of a surprise that this is not just a website with some content that comes from somewhere but it's actually way more than that. It's a community or even more a network of communities because every language Wikipedia has their own little sub-culture, sub-community and then there are all the sister projects like Wikidata, like Wikiboyage, like Wikipedia comments. And what brings all these people together is the belief that knowledge belongs to all of us and that not only means that it belongs to all of us in the sense that we can access it for free at any time anywhere like to have free educational content for everybody but also that we are all agents of knowledge, all of us carrying knowledge and we all should be part of the creation of knowledge. It's not only the ivory tower as it used to be for so many years where some scientists or experts say what is the status quo of a given topic but each and any of us can contribute to that and this is what revolutionized the way we create and consume knowledge nowadays. The big W with that is also a symbol for what's actually possible in the online age where a lot of the promises that were inherent in the verse of internet actually came true and like one of it and this is also something that I probably don't have to tell you but for many who have never lifted the curtains and looked behind the Wikipedia universe it's the power of decentralized collaboration that it's actually possible to create something like Wikipedia without any formal structure or hierarchy that people just work together and form this body of knowledge and that's actually pretty beautiful like for me that's one of the biggest social experiments of mankind in a way I don't think we ever had like a global experiment to that extent where we have so many different people from so many different backgrounds working together for one goal and the issue with it is that actually like we're also lacking the series to explain how and why that's actually possible and even people have been working in the Wikiverse for many many years a year's user owl for example who said that like many years ago that's these quotes of the laws of Wikipedia the problem with Wikipedia is that it can only work in practice in theory it would never work so we're lacking the motivational series that say like why would people anonymously without any gain for their reputation or without any money or or any other like classical incentives put so much time and effort into creating something like Wikipedia we just don't have the um sociological motivational organizational theories that come with it so even for us it's still a mystery how it exactly works but it's a beautiful mystery to explore every day so there is this place where people like one of the few places unfortunately in the internet in my regard or in my view where we actually come together to create where in we not only passive consumers who want to be entertained who want to be served information but we actually come together to also create information and in the last couple of years we realized that this is actually becoming more and more important than Wikipedia that the W becomes a symbol for something quite important and that is fact-based information like all of a sudden what many of us who for granted for many years that information should be as objective as possible should be sourced and should be sourced with really high quality sources became more and more of a disputable issue all of a sudden and so a lot of other platforms start turning to Wikipedia and to Wikipedia communities to see what we learned in the last almost 18 years when it comes to creation of knowledge about dealing with sources about dealing with information on the internet because all of a sudden it becomes harder and harder for all of the social media platforms and others to actually provide exactly that reliable information and even more so we have few and few places where our colliding world views actually meet and this is like for me one of the big views of Wikipedia that this is one of the few spaces where these filter bubbles as they often call it actually need have to meet and have to negotiate a common truth like or at least a common understanding of the truth because we have people from all sectors of the political universe of philosophy philosophical topics and they need to come together on the top pages of the wikis and negotiate like what is the common denominator that makes it to the article and then what in what way and of course that can be quite ugly in some in some instances I'm not saying it's all always civilized and nice but it's possible and they're like really nice and informative studies especially from the Anglophone world and the English Wikipedia but I think it's true for many other language versions too that you can see the more people work together to create the Wikipedia article the less bias they have in their language so you can see that it does something to people if they are forced to negotiate to talk to each other to listen to each other and to come to a common conclusion on what makes it to the article and what not and this is like so important and so rare nowadays because if you look at I don't know any given news outlet and at the comment section below an article it's it's usually just an ugly downward spiral of insults and and toxic behavior that doesn't leave anywhere so this this is important that we have places like that and there should be more it should not only be Wikipedia there should be more places like that out there so all that to say of course I'm convinced that my job is important that our community that is important and it's nice to talk about like how wonderful we are but these are like not the only conversations we should have and probably also not the most important conversation we should have the most important conversation we should have is like where do we still fail like where where are our blind spots like what are we not doing right what do we need to do to actually live up to that promise also in the future and if we look at our own mission statement so this is something that Jimmy Rails the co-founder of Wikipedia said years ago and I think it's one of the few things that almost all volunteers would actually subscribe to or a lot of things are debatable but I think this this sentence imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share the sum of all knowledge that's our commitment I think that's something that most of us would subscribe to but after thinking about it for just one or two minutes it's already like oh wait a second we are not there yet like we're actually very far from it because as some of you might know the wiki verse is a very homogeneous place it's not the most diverse place on earth so we are far from having every single human being there and we also are far from actually enabling these people if they wanted to come to actually participate and this is a big problem because if we want Wikipedia or free knowledge in whatever form being a wiki beta the future of how we access free knowledge to survive and and be this this beautiful place out there in the internet we need more people we need fresh people we need more people from all over the world and at the moment this is like not really possible and just talking from my own experience um as a executive director of a fairly successful wiki media organization which high approval rates in our yearly community surveys I just read the other day again that people are concerned that somebody from outside the wiki verse is leading this organization just after six years that I am not only committed out of my professional time but also a lot of private time like I only added in my spare private time because everything else would be about paid editing I need to hear that I'm still being perceived as being outside of whatever definition of corporate there is out there and okay like for me it's a job I signed up to it I have to keep up with a couple of things so this is fine but if I would be a volunteer I would think twice whether I want to spend another six years doing that if people say something like that about and we have this um these issues with a lot of um different situation where people come into the wiki verse either online or offline um and encounter difficulties barriers socially or technically um so they are actually not able to um work with us on this mission statement so it's the big w also a w that stands for welcome or not like if we look at our own definition that we have out there a welcome is a kind of greeting designed to introduce a person for new place or situation and make them feel at ease um the term can similarly also be used to describe a feeling of being accepted or part um on the part of the new person so do we actually accomplish that making people accept that as part of our community um or feel at ease I don't think so um and talking to newcomers over the last years when I work with them I don't think so and even people have been contributing for many years and um come to international events often feel lost like if they don't come as part of a group like you're the single only Bulgarian that can come to wiki mania you can be pretty lost like and this is not because people are evil but um there are a lot of inside jokes you probably don't speak English that well um you you're a bit shy like well what's happening like you can spend five days um together with your tribe and still not being able to make um the most out of it or anything out of it really if if the conditions are not set up in a way to enable you to actually contribute to meet people to connect with people and to do something with them and this is a cultural problem so this is um one of the hardest challenges that are out there even for classical organizations where you have like higher peace and challenge and then you have some kind of leadership and they come up with like a good strategy for tackling that challenge and you try to do it and even in these classical organizations there goes the same culture strategy for breakfast and it's so true like um if you don't really um manage to do something about the culture you can have the best strategy what for whatever it will fail um and it's even harder for us because we have lived in this decentralized world of all these communities and we as chapters as wiki media organizations don't actually have any agency in the projects themselves we don't make the rules there that they are made by the communities so our framework of action is even more limited than in these classical organizations so it's tough but that should not keep us from trying to do something the first time wiki media austria and i um as the responsible person there um actually started to think about it very systematically and strategically um was when we hosted the wiki media hackathon um in vienna last year so it's probably very similar in many regards to um what you guys doing on your events it's uh the time where all the volunteers meet but also the paid um employees of the wiki media foundation to come together and develop new tools to improve media wiki um so it's a very international event it's um also diverse uh and we hosted it not only because hosting events is so much fun and we had so much time on our hands we also had the goal we wanted to expand the technical part of our communities because here in austria we have a lot of photographers and editors but we could use um a couple of more tech savvy folks in our austrian community so we wanted to reach out to like-minded communities here in austria invite them to the hackathon and show them that there might be you know common common things that we could work on that it might be worthwhile investing time in um in the wiki worse and um with all the experiences we had before we knew like this is not happening by itself we can't just bring people in and throw them together with 200 other people from all over the world and hope that um it's gonna work it works for a couple of people i'm not saying it it's not possible like they are outgoing people who just you know dive in and become part of it but we can't take that for granted we need to come up with like a more systematic approach on how we foster that and we started to um uh to think about in many big and small ways and because they were not really good practices without it within our our communities we started to reach out to other tech communities and see what they've been doing like um rails girls uh feminist tech circles in vienna and austria um you can talk which is a use coding initiative from germany that's also um done in uh switzerland and austria and looked into what they have in handbooks rules ideas and tried to you know compile the best things that we thought like might make our events even better and we had a lot of small and big things like gender neutral bathrooms um or quiet zones where people if they're just overwhelmed from socializing can retreat and it's a clear signal like if i'm here i don't want to be approached i need an hour or two to you know calm down and um have a bit of peace of mind before i can go back into the the big um international beehive of coders so we had all these little things um we compiled it in um in a handbook uh the resources will be at the end of my slides so perhaps this is something that um you might find useful for big or small events you're hosting in your communities or for one of the next academies but the heart of what we actually did was a mentoring program that we set up um and this was a mentoring product that that really took that word mentoring very seriously it was not just like hey and that that's been because other things have been done before we had buddy systems where you're matching newcomers with old hands and like hey your buddies um you have fun together this weekend go ahead that often that was nice that's a start but often it didn't work because um after the initial getting to know each other and exchanging a bit it's it can be a pretty high barrier if you see your old hand buddy working on something really um uh uh concentrated to go back to women disturb him every 30 minutes to ask him a question on like hey how do i set up that complicated task or or my install party here failed like can you help me so what we wanted to have is mentors who actually came to the event to be mentors and mentors only to dedicate their time only to the newcomers not working on their own projects but come as a project that they work on but with the newcomers also coming up with ideas because um at least in the wiki words i don't know about your community but in the wiki words it's really hard as a newcomer you have all these opportunities and all these things that you could do but it's completely overwhelming you can spend the day just researching like where to start and where you can actually contribute so have um a group of mentors being there and saying like this is my project this is what we do this is the skills that we need do you want to work with me on that that worked fairly well and also and that's something we learned from the youth secretary and i learned a lot from that youth secretary like you always think that's only for kids but it works for adults it shows as much it's how important is to have a sense of accomplishment at the end of the weekend right like you spend three or four days together you work hard and then you go home and there's just this little thing that needs to be finished or this or that and you probably will never do it because you encounter more problems you're you're running out of time so it's really important to have something that you've accomplished and can present at the end of the hackathon and the showcase together with everybody else that's that's one of the most motivating things i think that you can take from it when and we wanted to enable everybody we wanted to do that to be able to do that so it was the job of the mentors to make sure that their team can accomplish something and present it at the end of the three days together with all the old hands and stand in front of everybody and be proud of something and show it and that worked fairly well we also had a program mentoring program coordinator to coordinate the mentors to help them with the kickoff sessions to help connect to each other during the days have regular check-ins because you encounter problems when you mentor sometimes so just exchange with other mentors find other people with the right skill sets somewhere and have a regular communication also between the mentors over the three days and that being facilitated by a person that has just this role to look that the program itself is running well another important thing that only popped up so that's something that we learned or we find in process so to say during the event was that it's nice to have a mentoring area because usually you have to kickoff session and people spread out and work on their own or in little groups and they come back together but it's sometimes a big event's hard to find the persons back that you needed or sometimes just anybody who can help you so to have like this assigned area that says like mentoring area the people who are sitting there you can always approach them don't be shy come they will be able to help you if they can help you they probably know somebody who can help you and help you find this person approach this person so this was also something that was a wish from from the mentees and that that's been something that we had for HEPA thoughts ever since now to have this designated mentoring area where people can come and we also everybody's welcome to come in ask questions connect to us so by and large like what we learned is like it's really worth looking outside of your own you know little bubble for inspiration if you have facing challenges that you can't solve so learning from other open communities was so so helpful that it's good to be bold to try new ideas even though people might be skeptical because of course it takes a lot of resources so I had to have really tough conversations with the Wikimedia Foundation for staff time assigned to the mentoring program volunteers to do it but if you're convinced of it and you saw it working somewhere else and you really want to do it like people fight for it try to get it and it takes time commitment and resources so onboarding newcomers is nothing that you can just do on the fly I think we're all like if it's important for us if it's a priority we also need to treat it as a priority we need to put the resources in that are needed to do it properly and cherish the mentors for their work like we did everything to make the mentors the rock stars of this of this event like they got their own t-shirts they got shout outs they get their own flowers so also cherish the newcomers but also cherish the people who work with these newcomers who dedicate their time and make it a successful event for everybody so that was really really good and one of the most important and that's probably also one of the biggest arguments for things like mentoring programs is that productivity and inclusiveness are not zero some games we had both because everybody else they could work on their projects they didn't have to like everybody was not a mentor and didn't want to be they could work on their projects and didn't have to be disturbed all the time whereas the others could work together systematically and also produce a lot so we had one of the longest showcases in the history of wikimedia hackathons because on both sides people could work productively and it was just yeah it was it was really nice so but what apart from events because events are things that happen one two or three times a year that's okay that's a good start but it's not enough so what we do ever since we really try to pay attention to friendly spaces also outside of events you have to create like create these events as friendly spaces but online and offline communication outside of the major events should also be friendly spaces the way we communicate with each other the way we treat each other so for us at wikimedia austria for us every event now has a friendly space policy for example we also made sure to link our friendly space policy to our bylaws to make sure that it's also an obligation of everybody who is a member of our association to abide to that and another important thing that goes with friendly spaces and inclusiveness includes language so we just had our bylaws and all official documents of inclusive language which is important and even more so in german than in english so i i'm not sure what's your native language some of you might know what i'm talking about in english it's not always as clear how important gendered language can be to to be inclusive but germanies are heavily gendered language so it really makes a difference but it goes beyond gendered language inclusive language is also calling wikimedia projects not the german wikipedia or the english wikipedia but the english language wikipedia or the german language wikipedia to acknowledge that it has been you know created not only by germans or by people from england but people from all over the world who speak the language and contributed to it inclusive language also means not using abbreviations without explaining them when you're aware that their people around might not understand it to make insider jokes but also give an explanation for that there are so many ways that our language can foster inclusion and it's a process like and i myself totally like also go in the same traps but being aware of it and try to train yourself to be more inclusive in the way you talk with each other is definitely rewarding and first and for most the the thing that we took away from that and that we still want to do outside of epitons and events is like really fine who are the rock stars in our movement the rock stars in our movement so far are the people with the big edit counts who have thousands of edits or uploads or or i don't know like made this or that big well-known project the inventor of wikilof's monuments and that's good like these people should be rock stars but mentors should also be rock stars even if there's no easy tool that we can program that counts how many people are in this movement because of to count how many people stayed in the movement because of them to count how many people do a better job in this movement because of them yeah but i always try to imagine if i know some like some of the mentors and what they're doing behind the scenes i always try to imagine that army of people behind them when they're walking around like just like an augmented reality bubble where all these people that have something to say thank you for this person and i think we should celebrate that we should celebrate that more we should give these people more of a voice we should acknowledge what they do and we should celebrate them just as much as everybody with thousands and thousands of edits so what does that all mean for the kate kate or kde community i think um you guys are far ahead of us in many regards when it comes to all these cultural all these cultural requirements that make a welcoming community as i said i talked a bit to um lydia before and she told me that um a constructive working working atmosphere has been there from day one and it was always something that has been cherished in this movement and it's still there like i mean you have this strategic goals these three strategic goals and i just stumbled over i already knew it also for my conversation with lydia but i stumbled across that the last couple of days when i prepared my slides and lydia was asking like what were your highlights of the last year and there is um neo fetus i hope i pronounced the name right i was saying like oh as a newcomer i submitted like one of these three goals and i've been working on it ever since and this is amazing and i showed that to a couple of people come and from the wikiverse and everybody said this would not be possible in the wikiverse like having a newcomer coming in and like defining and being chosen was like this strategic goal and this strategic goal is also about onboarding it makes it even better but just that that that's such a strong signal that that's amazing so we are far away from from being where you are also this like embracing cuteness so um uh so um yeah please because we have cuteness too so i brought a representative here it's Percy so cute animals are taking over the wikiverse have been for the last five years there's the wiki media cuteness association but we are far from you know embracing um official uh cute um animals as as our representatives to the outside world so i find that really really cool i wish we had something like that um and they're becoming more diverse too and like every sub community or subtopic has their own um little dragon that's amazing so you have it already and i think you can make more out of it make it your usb so usb is slang this is exactly the kind of non-inclusive language that's why i explained it um i'm a marketing person but it's a it's a good term to um explain like what i mean it's like a factor that differentiates you from others so being a welcoming community that's such a big asset and i think it needs to be even more prominent in what you do because there's so many communities out there they're looking for new people and want to convince people that it's worthwhile working for them and you already have such great structures to have these people around so make even more of it make that your usb that differentiates you from other communities and make people want to work with you instead of others so well how could that work so i'm a newbie but in this community i feel comfortable talking and making suggestions so in the wikiverse i would probably be slept but um i make one or two suggestions um what what could be done just from from my very limited perspective but i heard you have awards and every now and then people get awarded for being great mentors or for being great people who onboard how about having our own category for that so just to make sure that at least once a year somebody or a group of persons or people is appreciated for being great mentors for great onboarders for great newbie uh recruiters um that that would be a start and what's even more important uh give these people a voice and a stage like redefine rock stars are i think you're already in the process of that that people who onboard newcomers are important to this community and should be cherished and should be able to to get a prominent status but also give them a voice and a stage that can mean regular blog posts about these things on on your communication channels that means i don't know in in programs like in your conference programs make it our own slot whatever you can do to make these voices these stories heard um and shared that will make it even more obvious and even more a signal for newcomers who look around for things that they can do to make it clear what you already are a nice and welcoming community so i think there's not much to do but um it could be a bit more systematic and even a stronger signal to the outside world to people who don't have that background information or nice chat with you to make it really visible on first plans what's possible if you join if you join this community here the resources i will share these slides online i guess there will be a way to do that i'm happy to do that so this is everything we collected for hackathon so that's probably another thing that you might want to look into if you organize events there are like a lot of big and small things that could probably be adopted just like we adopted them from others um and i would be happy if you would yeah also make a documentation of the things you are going to learn um in the context of your strategic goal of onboarding newbies because i'm eager to learn and i think the wikiverse can learn a lot from you so wherever you create resources let us know um and otherwise that's my um my contact i'm happy to answer questions now or at any time in the future and thanks again for having me and um listening to me we find that there are more stars and lots to be more inclusive here it's a very great thing like we we had this discussion a few days ago about uh identifying the current leading developer and not having just four developers but also for non-computers uh hope that they're going to more people in the combat grounds and on the other hand that i've read a few teachers about how the term rock star is sort of not as inclusive as it could be and i'm sort of trying to be certain that most of you know um on some grounds of course it's still like re-college that it's uh um a term that i'm slowly i'm not completely sure if we're finding the term rock star but without an end but it's pretty much me that it's it's it's becoming more inclusive and speaking about inclusive language for for the people that speak German i very much appreciate this focus this sport and the fact that we have a political collective about it's about how we need particularly correct language to be inclusive on many levels um um yes thank you i agree with the term rock stars and i was actually hesitating whether i should and i was also thinking very long about pictures i use for the slides when i presented it because i agree um it's probably not the best term but to get across the idea i i decided to stick with it because just to make sure like how important these people are i couldn't come up with a better term to acknowledge the importance but within the community to to come up with like good terms on how we um celebrate these people without our communities we can come up with alternative terms that everybody at least in the community understands but to talk to an audience to explain what i mean i decided to stick with but i completely agree that um it's probably not the best term in the world thank you thank you also for the recommendation i will have a look at that book um i i still don't think we live in the post-life fact world also the slide that like i um hopefully not but i i i know what you mean like does it still work in like this in this times where this is very much challenged and um actually i don't know we all don't know yet because what what we are seeing right now is that people redirect um their problems to the pedia right like youtube did for example facebook does to a certain extent twitter like oh if you want to validate whether something is right or not just go to wikipedia so yeah nice thanks guys just send all the trolls our way um without ever without ever giving back to us yeah um so yeah there have been a couple of interviews also with katherine mayer the director of the committee foundation it's even more in there because you have to look at it from a more global level but there's there's concern in the communities and there's concern in the organizations that um the more wikipedia has also put into the limelight um for for those people the more they will think about creative ways to bypass our quality control systems that we have and i think it also always depends very much on the community and the approach that you're talking about the german language community is like a big community with a lot of people with a lot of mechanisms to ensure quality smaller languages with fewer editors they're probably already struggling with that now so it really depends from project to project but we see we see problems on the horizon that might challenge the way we work so far the more people actually think like oh that's the last uh that's the last um uh uh how do you say like the last threshold of uh of sourced information let's let's work against that um it is possible and um we have our concerns so we will need to see what the future brings for us and how our communities will deal with it but we are aware of it so we're working on it but there's no definite answer i can give to that right now i can hear you but i'm very close to you this is where we are in the last uh two years ago see people there are late night community day uh oh you can actually repeat that those things and you have everybody to change yes and it's really different so analysis is one of the ones that that the vast parts of the vast and treated us is just backwards that's just what we try to call it not everybody does it but i think it makes sense right people speak the same language yeah so uh you see it makes sense now we see that out here and in Germany if both are from the community we have to determine the quality one organization so i'm actually german myself like i work in austria i live in austria but i'm german myself and of course we ask ourselves that question um i think most austrians would immediately say like oh it's super important because you know like we've already been and it's true austrian language and austrian culture is marginalized on the german language with epedia already um and i'm not very trustful that if you say level pray let's not have the epedia austria that it will get any better um if we don't have like a local organization that works with i don't know for example the federal monuments office to help um digitalize austrian cultural heritage in a very systematic way i think we do all of that from Berlin i don't think we'll get better and even in germany you can see that there is a trend for regionalization like you have like all these local epedia offices that pop up they're usually not stuffed but at least they have like some physical space because even germany seems to be already to speak to only have like one office um in in in Berlin so having a physical representation definitely helps but it's called epedia austria epedia germany that's of course available but i think um having um a representation of physical space and also people who actually work for exactly this part of marginalized content is is still important the question is like to what extent do we need that moment and that's something we're seeing about at the moment we're going through a huge movement why it's strategy forces and questions like that are on the table like how many organizations do we need to support one language epedia but um epedia is also one of the only one of the things that we do there are other things regarding free knowledge that we do in austria and this is like one very important part but not all of the things we do but it's a very good question thanks with respect to epedia i found out that the english language epedia community seems to be very much open and very much more uh approaching to free topics where in the germany way the epedia are usually restrained from from people reading the germany way the topic is because there's very often that many trans people are not very much interested in that kind of stuff in germany which the community are there people around so you might want to or to perform such the community to improve on that kind of thing the german language epedia is a huge huge challenge in that regard and if we try to find and recruit newcomers that's one of the biggest problems we can make a nice lg gp event with editing and then once they're on their own on the wikipedia there's really little we can do to um to support them because the more we as staff members try to um be involved the harder it gets actually um but there are groups who um work on on projects like that often internationally i don't know how much they do in the german wikipedia but i'm happy to get to in touch with like um and actually it's um part uh partly austrian project um just last week there was the euro pride in stockholm and it's like since last year it's a tradition to have like it came out of a project that we called wikipedia for peace and um lg gp topics were a really big part of um um of wikipedia for peace for for many reasons and there's a little international group that is like led from one austrian who also invented wikipedia for peace that do these uh europe pride events with the titans for example and he's also working in the german wikipedia of course so i'm happy to get you in touch with him and um and this group um i think they do amazing work um internationally but also in the german language i know we will have an event like that here too probably even a big bigger so um and also wikipedia austria already um uh offered to um to help organizing it and and hosting it so if you would be part of it that would be great so if we see each other next year again here in vienna for that i'm great again i'm a very good i'm the guy for the next set of um not really outside of events so for like close events it's always easier to track like oh this was the mentor this was a group what did they do during the event what did they do after the event for the ongoing work during the year it's really hard and i think that's something that um that will be the next step for us too to come up with good ways to measure um we're not there yet i can't unfortunately but we should stay in touch perhaps you can come up with and you know especially in tech space it's even harder like on wikipedia projects it's easier to keep track of what people do um on tech projects it's even you know it's so widespread you can keep up with your data like where do you start like and there's no good way so far that we can come up with but i'm happy to have that conversation in future to to learn from each other thank you so much i have a lot of questions but i'm sure you'll be around a little more yeah and um just reach out to me if i can help with anything thank you so much thank you