 I think it will be good if people can switch on their cameras. So it's I wanted more conversational than our chamber. Yes, but if there is a bandwidth issue, like if it start affecting the voice and video quality, then we may request people accept the speaker to shut off the camera. Otherwise it's fine. So we can we can try that to start with and if there's an issue, then we will ask people to. Is that fine? We are live. Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to HBCC seminar, which we are restarting today after a break. Let me begin by extending a warm welcome to Dr. Suresh Yangdeh on behalf of HBCC, I thank Suresh for accepting our invitation for today's talk and you all for being part of it. Dr. Suresh Yangdeh is currently a senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School. He holds a research associate position with the Department of African and African American Studies, a non resident fellow at the Hutchins Center for African and African American Research and is part of the founding team of initiative for institutional and racism and accountability at Harvard University. He has studied in four continents, Asia, Africa, Europe and North America and it is India's first Dalit PhD holder from an African American African University, University of with what stand Johannesburg. Suraj is the author of the best seller cast matters which you can see in his background as well and coordinator of award winning anthology radical in Ambedkar. He has delivered over 300 lectures keynotes at international academic conferences and seminars across the world on the issues of casteism, racism, institutionalized discrimination, diversity and inclusion. Today he will be talking to us on perspectives on education of the marginalized in the 21st century. He will talk about the nature and role of education addressing the issues faced by marginalized societies by drawing on his vast and varied experiences. The talk can also be an opportunity to interrupt with Suraj about his best seller book cast matters and other writings in particular during the question answer session. Handing over to Suraj. How would you like it that usually we have 40 minutes talk plus 20 minutes question? Is that a fine format or would you like people to interrupt or reserve the questions at the end? What what what do you prefer? I think we'll make it more conversational. So please interrupt in between. So we would like to have it more democratic space. That's why I was whoever can and have a good bandwidth on their network. Feel free to switch on the camera so we can have a more classroom type of exercise than you know, than just a lecture format. So if if if there are people can switch on your cameras as requested by Suraj and then we'll see if there are issues then we can, you know, take it from there. Yeah, over to you Suraj. You can start. Thank you. Thank you Masood and thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the flashback for the flashing of gas matters. I would like to extend my thanks to the colleagues at TIFR for very kindly inviting me. It has it took us about think a month or two to get to this. So I appreciate the patience. As you all know, covid has changed our lives as and this has really made much of change good and bad, mostly bad. Also, I think you should find grace in some of the outcomes of this pandemic. I would like to speak to a few broader themes today with with the hope that this conversation then takes us into various domains. I've always wanted to whenever I came to Mumbai, I've never visited TIFR and less so the homie Baba Center for Science and Education. Maybe next time when in meeting is possible, I would like to have an opportunity to see what this elite institution I think TIFR is probably one of those quote unquote untainted government sanctioned institutions as opposed to it's I am and much of other social science institutions. So there's must be something going on or perhaps people just don't understand the atomic nature of what kind of work you guys do. Whatever the case may be here. We are in a I will draw some of my remarks today from colleagues who have worked in IISC more particularly rainy Thomas's ethnographic work that he conducted in IISC Bangalore tried to understand how cast and science marry each other in the Indian social as well as scientific setting. There is more than what we apparently judge or estimate as to how caste is part and parcel of our thinking and as well as our mode of knowledge making a knowledge producing one of the earlier instances that we continue to wrestle with is does caste is cast even part of how we think and how we debate science and then is science actually castist in its Indian setting. Now much of the arguments about science as being rationally more which is scientifically driven methodologically sound result oriented peer reviewed form of knowledge does not need to have other societal inputs to taint or contaminate its its pristine nature. However, what we see further investigating into this is cast is as much a part of how we imagine signs how we produce signs and of course how we execute that science and that can very well be exemplified with two examples. One is of course looking at the diversity ratio of our science educational institutions and second is what kind of scientists are operating in the spaces who are challenging, channeling, producing as well as acting as custodians of this knowledge and and science in in in a broader context to kind of highlight Renny Thomas's research in this more in this particular instance is they were in in his research mostly in in Bangalore they were subtle forms of supremacies that animated the students a viewpoint when we when we look at the the ratio of schedule car schedule tribe and other backward classes. We come to we come to a point as to really see how science is actually being held by the within the grips of certain cast groups. Now, if you look at the composition of IISC about 484 academic staff are employed with within within that what we see is less than 5 percentage of of those belong to schedule cast schedule tribe and OBC now this is this is fundamentally a a a C change when we see the schedule cast schedule tribe and OBC belong to approximately if you if you combine the population ratio 77 percentage of India's population 77 percentage of India's population is represented in in with 13 percentage in the most elite admitted Institute when it comes to the domain of science the IISC which is government funded and which has to follow the the government nonce now. How does this then get penetrated into how we envision and how we produce a knowledge or how we discuss knowledge that the various ways we can approach this one of the methodological way to really understand about how a marginalized perspective gets uplifted or suppressed is to go and and and for example dip our minds in in into the history most the first the first half of 20th century and think about the great scientist Meghna Tzaha now some of you all might be aware if you are from the from the discipline of astrophysics but but a legendary figure who actually work on thermal ionization who who find out the temperatures and more particularly how this theory which is which is which is calculating the temperature of sun with with its own formulation especially within the equation of thermal ionization has actually contributed to the ionization of various elements more particularly calcium now Meghna Tzaha is one of the pioneers in his own right when it comes to science in India. He is not only a pioneer in in in launching new scientific enquiries and producing amazing results but also this gentleman was highly invested in marrying society with science and and and for that purpose he launches a science and culture journal and of course the association that that kind of interfaces with science and and society now now these are of course he he he is a contemporary of many of our well-known people. So Tindranath Bose or CV Raman and and and the likes and we are talking about that specific generation now that there is a very interesting aspect of Meghna Tzaha's biography Meghna Tzaha not only launches new enquiries but his research is then you know due to his inability to carry further they were they were two prominent reasons and they kind of connect to each other was was lack of finances Now when Tzaha was advocating for more science inspired societal investigation there was a there was a a move in this regard that we need a foreign support of financial support so so of course we can then you know develop our own science and now within this CV Raman opposed this move and and and hoped to have a more indigenous ways or looking at equipments and not relying on a foreign based funding and and because of that of course Tzaha was deprived of funds one of this is seen with when he he sends his pioneering paper to a journal here in the UK. They ask him and as was the practice during that time if you're publishing paper if he needs published you need to really contribute to publishing he couldn't afford he cannot afford and of course an important research gets gets unpublished and then that instead of publishing international reputed journal where you have more eyes it gets published in a journal in India based in in Calcutta now Meghna Tzaha story then exemplifies an important status of how he channeled his own creative genius to to then not getting settled with what was with with him he launches much of his activities into a political as well as societal initiatives and that's why becomes part of National Planning Commission which was then run by International Congress in the 1930s under the chairmanship of Nehru eventually falls out of Nehru because they were then follows the capitalist industrialist class known as Bombay group and and and then you know contest an independent election and gets into into the into the parliament as an independent candidate and then keeps on rallying for much of much of his initiative. Meghna Tzaha is not only individual who is who is just launching scientific journals and creating political works but also he is launching new institutions as as wherever he is he is he is taking place of course he goes to Alaba and of course he then later he spends his time in Calcutta or Kolkata his province West Bengal as we as we call it today in in in the story. Meghna Tzaha gets nominated to Nobel Prize six times. It starts I think in 1930s and ends in in 1956 probably when he or or 40 56 when he when he when he when he dies. Now this this is an amazing feat of a man who at the age of 34 gets inducted as a fellow of Royal Society which is again and distinguished honor in the field. Meghna Tzaha's journey is not yet mainstream we do not know about this great man who has a feud with the great CV Raman Meghna Tzaha is a Dalit from Bengal and when we try to exemplify life of people like Tzaha we see why Tzaha doesn't become an inspiration that crosses seas. It is very interesting for me to notice that much of the Brahminical discourse easily assimilates and sits almost in just a position with with the science of the various practices within students and within academics to maintain a certain niche form of Brahminism is very much part of how you think about science in Indian context starting from specially education institutes in India it's a comical that we have segregation in eating the mess is segregated according to vegetarian non-vegetarian and then there is I guess at least there was a third category about North Indian now what we what we definitely see is we really create called ons we create an upper side of distinction right from consuming the food to again turn not transending to the new boundaries that the society has has given us a Brahminism and Brahmin supremacy then becomes a point of departure to our enquiries of thinking about how 21st century knowledge deems to be a backward knowledge if it is not addressing the fundamental research problems or societal problems that it needs to address in the first instance may not Sahal like figures could not have had happened in post-independent India if they are their biography remains unknown while we celebrate the great Brahmin figures for their contribution to science the backward caste or the tribals or the Dalit discourse really doesn't get simulated as a mainstream food of thought for people to then pursue a new research and and and new and then explain the new dynamics that exist in their own disciplinary backgrounds with Megan at Sahab what we also see is there are other important aspects that our society needs to address if you look at IITs IITs again one of the other crown jewels less than 3% age of the faculty belongs to the SCST at least the record that I saw two years ago I don't know how much it has changed now IAMs at least we were lobbying for more diversity there was only one tribal out of the total IAMs which is which is a very interesting insight for us to see how we deprive a tribal knowledge inclusion into our own political as well as educational praxis and then within the the 13 IAMs of that that we saw they were only within the 20 they were only 13 who were who were belonging to schedule cast and schedule tribe now this is a prominent a way to really not think about how diversity or how lack of representation creates a mediocre knowledge and the best example of this is none of the education institutes are in top 100 even though we might beat our chest with claiming a pride we have not managed to create our own status as the leading knowledge producers much of the talent has to then you know find a space and then they become like about the same and many other pioneering or cutting edge researchers who then get assimilated into this now in the faculty representation especially talking about IITs they were out of 20 12 IITs which had no schedule cast no schedule tribe. Now this is a dark picture that that we are that we are seeing and the top IAMs which which follow with Bangalore Ahmedabad Calcutta Lucknow Indore on the Bangalore had one and Lucknow had one others trickle down similarly what we what we what we what we effectively see is the majority of diversity initiatives that should have gone into science has not remained as a project of the leaders within the within the science discipline now one might say we don't look at cast we one might say there's no cast as such don't bring cast into our own you know cast in outside cast is politics don't bring into our gates we are just here totally education inspired driven initiative ask yourself how much of your cast privileges have privilege has given you an opportunity to think for yourself like again in rainy Thomas's region especially in IISC the Brahmin student who he interviewed said that the the the attitude of looking at research was very much part of patients and because they could afford to have patients to find results they could pursue a research in this what this definitely says is other fields or other people do not have adequate appetite to to carry research or have that kind of patients because these people are just running for jobs I think this is a highly misreading of a society I think if given chance everybody within a generation or two I will work their way out and then find a more of solutions and in in in in in there in their own vocational training as well as research now let me briefly take you to how then this gets institutionalized in our in our society I don't know and I would like to know from you TIFR how many schedule cast schedule tribe students are there within your intake and how many faculties belong to schedule cast and schedule tribe are existing within your own collegial space this will help us to really understand how new research is being carried out without including majority of the population now this is very important you all know that science especially the New England Journal which is very prestigious in at least in the science field I took a very conscious decision to not only focus on diversity as the cardinal principal but they were also promoting the opposed Trump for his anti scientific statement I want to know how many of professors students within the science institutions who devote their life to promote scientific thinking and contribute to new innovative technological developments participate in in in undermining the retrograde superstitious values that are promoted as a religious or cultural ethic in our society because it's a responsibility on many of us who think ourselves as an enlightened generation enlightened mind because who has the capacity and acumen to decipher reason with with stupidity we could then also see how our responsibilities do not remain confined to our own conferences journal publications or our or supervising our students and producing next generation have we taken conscious decision to challenge some authoritarian moves that that that undermined much of the think and I'm here I bring out the people who devoted their life to promotion of science getting killed by the fanatic Hindu organizations in India more particularly a Narendra Dabholkar was fighting against the superstition in society which is again institutionalized so our responsibility here friends and colleagues increases manifold as to where we then draw a line of our of our own soul as well as soul with soul with O U L and soul with S O L E and and and I think with this perspective a marginalized perspective is actually a mainstream perspective. It's a perspective of the Constitution. It's the perspective of human ethic and for us to live in a society of equals and not have marginalizations anymore. We need to uplift those causes now people with class benefits undermine the experiences of people who are never in the corridors of power and as well as power sharing and you to this what we see is a very pricked knowledge gets eventually sanctioned as a as an authority in in in certain in certain fields and here I see at my own discipline social science anthropology and history in particular as to how certain hierarchies melt or solidify rather excuse me into into into becoming new forms of gates where new entrance will have to qualify or rather follow the model established in the society. We have a high devotion and a fake losing aptitude of looking back at ancient India and celebrating it as a barrier of science that might as well be true but we might also have to recognize that ancient India is also responsible for horrible cost atrocities and genocides that were committed and continues to inspire contemporary generation to persecute the marginalized people. Sometimes it's more oftentimes it is it is a it is a naked form of demonstration of hatred through violence hacking of bodies of people belong to Dalit and marginalized communities but also that has then gotten into policy making as well as decision making of of of institutions for Dalits more particularly education is the only way out for them. They don't own resources. They don't have historical or hereditary wealth that they can't rely on. That's why education becomes the only gate to imagine something new had I had no education I would have just lived in one room house of my family's inheritance which was again bought by a labor worker which was my grandfather. What we in this scenario see is unless we step outside of our comfort zone and culturally inform ourselves and become accessible to the rest of the world and make it more attractive. We might not have many astrophysicists like Megan at Saha from the community that we would really like to uplift reproducing similar forms of knowledge with similar minds and similar genius is not progress. It's actually stamping off the hierarchical Brahminism that gets food stamped in into into into into knowledge making some of the experiences. Of course, I read some of the testimonials of scientists who went to who are of a progressive bent who loath and and try to work without a Brahminism or Brahminic ethic have found themselves staring at a wall on the both sides. It is because the the niche of this discipline continues to be an informed cultural culturally in in in our in our own thinking and so if we need to make it more palatable to the communities that we would like to serve. I think we need to now start cultural education. They should be much of at least a compulsory course for each science education Institute to talk about the history and sociology of castes in India. It needs to have a candid conversation as to how this knowledge is produced and how it is going to be contained and how it is going to be shared and how it is going to be then deployed in the community of society. If science is meant to serve the society serve the people or serve the demos, what we need to do then is get the demos to do that job than us acting as the custodians or or the or or the collectors of this knowledge who can then pass on certain rules and regulations to this. One of the fundamental difference that I see, especially here and and in America with the colleagues that have spent their time at Harvard and mostly at MIT is their obsessive focus in bringing people of diversities into their into their labs into their new projects or or or or in their incubations that they are trying to do. I haven't seen that work done by my good colleagues in the Indian Institutes, which are science or research and so forth. If we make it a conscious effort, of course, barring few honorable exceptions where and it would be it would be very good to highlight those names Deepak Malgan does that and I am Bangalore. I have Chinmai Tumbe who does it in I am Amdabad and and of course few other honorable colleagues who have realized their own Brahmin privilege and sought out that the next hire they would do would be a person belonging to a marginalized community and and they will train they will invest in this resources and and I think what what we need to what we need to do is we need to recognize that there is a problem called caste. There is a problem called Brahminism. There is a problem called Brahmin supremacy. This functions into what you eat, how you are taught, how you are connected, what kind of leisurely activities do, what kind of music you listen, what kind of societal inter campus networks you make and what kind of intimidations that you create. Do you really create a space for a person from marginalized community to be him or her without adhering to your food practices to your own religious values? I think we need to we need to really break this down. If science is not teaching you to break down this barriers, then really science is a surrogate of Brahminism in India and this is a threat. Science will die if we do not do this because the people who will then come from this and the you should know as time is changing, evolution is happening. More and more people with my kind of name, my kind of background will occupy your spaces. Why don't we already start creating and catering their spaces so we don't feel more intimidated into this. Now, before offering my closure, I would like to ask you to help me think how well can we think about 21st century as our century? 21st century is my favorite because this is my responsibility. This is my this is part of my role. This is this is where I'm going to work. This is where I'm going to invest my time and I want to make this correct. I want to try to do much of or most of the good changes that I can and in this work and in this project, I would like you all to also help me think about how can we collectively join hands and think about our collective mutual futures because because because at the end of the nest, if we have a democratic character in our institutions in our way of looking at work, we will be really able to provide and do a service to the public than really making it an esoteric non accessible some jargon oriented field. Our responsibilities are to our discipline, but also I think is our to the larger projects or larger goals whom we are from whom we draw our benefits, our taxes, our salaries and paid by the people. I think we should be responsible for that and rather being lots of and we should be more radically informed about these differences that restructure or rather structure our way of thinking and I think it is with this hope that I think we should now consider few ways of of doing and sometimes undoing things. I think much of the time I will have to do those both simultaneously not less or not more and and and for that to happen. I really hope there will be positive futures and and of course addressing to you colleagues. My also intention was to address other scientific institutions which which are which are cropping up but one of the important problems that remain unaddressed and almost carries as a threat is privatization of education privatization of knowledge privatization of this new developments and India cannot afford that because privatization will then again marginalize the communities that we would like to incorporate and knowledge. The more it is privatized it becomes ownership of few capitalist few individuals who would like to wholesomely control everything and and not democratize it. We can't have a non-democratic which is again a road to fascism and within fascism as I argued recently in my piece. There's no equality and there's no democracy. It will lead to a extermination of a whole generation like what happened during the Second World War in Europe and continues to happen in much of the rest of the world. Thank you. Thank you for the thought-provoking talk. I don't think the TAFA statistics has a different story to still though I don't have the exact number with me but some other audience may have but I think it's more or less similar to what you have pointed out in the IAC story and all and also pointing about the mismatch between discourse and actions where discourse is often not leading to solid action. I would like to take up questions from audience. Please raise your hands or you can speak if if there are two people talking simultaneously then I may intervene otherwise anybody can unmute and speak or you can post your questions in the chat or can I respond? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So I am Subramaniam. I am the Center Director of Omigawa Center. So thank you for your talk and thank you for raising these issues which we believe are important but I must admit that unfortunately we have not made much headway in bringing diversity of all kinds in the center. Of course, it's a small center. We do try for diversity in the faculty in the students at least that's kind of we believe in but also we are being a small place with the kind of we work in area which is not common in India which is the kind of interface between science and education. So we are an interdisciplinary center. So we have program where courses you know students draw on humanity social sciences as well as science and so being a kind of specialized place we get very few applicants particularly for faculty positions or for postdoc positions though and it used to be the case also for students but now the student applications are getting better. We are getting more number of applications. However, I don't think we are getting enough applications from a diversity of communities and background. So it would help us if you know more such people were directed to the center. Certainly I would think that from our side if you look at the applications we have rejected that is you know whether of students or of faculty. I don't think by looking at that of course if you look at the statistics of how many people are in this in the institution whether as faculty or as students that may not give a good picture of diversity of all kinds. There's some kinds of diversity but not all kinds. But if you look at the rejection rate perhaps you know we don't discriminate there. I mean the rejections would be across all groups and not I don't recall many cases where applicants from marginalized backgrounds have been rejected. I could be wrong but I think that might other colleagues can correct me or add to what I am saying but this is true. So I think it would be helped if more applicants were directed and somehow we get a diversity of applications. I think we may do somewhat better. Thank you Professor Bramonyam for that comment of yours. I think you know one of the ways I've been thinking about this for some time is especially let's take an example of I am with our colleagues there. We identified the reason for not having many schedule car, schedule driver, OBC candidates and one of the reasons was that they don't really induct students into doctoral programs and because that's a channel into this and so what we emphasized was to concentrate a pre-doctoral training programs specifically targeting the students like what NASA did you know eventually it did eventually but also you know it went out and it concentrated on finding students from the black colleges and poor neighborhoods and you know and we all know it's not something you know science is not something you learn and you have to have that space and you know and that's why I think what we need to do is we need to make it more appealing I guess we need to make it more attractive we need to create more inspirational figures because once we are able to do that you know once because if I look at somebody who belongs to my community at TIFR for example it is but natural that that's going to inspire at least you know few thousand students to think about but if I'm seeing another Malotra or another swamis that ain't going to make any difference because that's not that's not reflecting my you know my potential in that because that really doesn't connect and I think that's how many of this kind of cultural capital gets translated and and and obviously you know when if one needs to really create a conscious decision one can I think then make a extra or give a treatment of preference if a person is coming for a marginalized background so that we know we can create something out of that person if we are applying the same standards across then we really miss out on much of the newness that the community or the person is bringing and at much of the time our meritocratic regime does that and it fails miserably our so-called merit wallas have not produced ace new innovations that will you know rival Facebook and Google and other technologies of course they went there and you know contributed so I think this is a very kind of a hypocritical space that Indian regime of specially custodians of knowledge have and you know I've been telling them constantly I've been advocating for it in fact that if I want a woman in my team then I will get a woman in my team there is no second thought if she is qualified enough as much as a male if I need a queer person in my team I will ensure I'll get a queer person in my team about the qualities and qualifiers and qualifications that are something that we can develop together because you know you know I sit on some committees you know in you know and one of the I'm sure it must be your experience as well but what we did usually at least at Harvard level was to concentrate on certain applications to look at what kind of background the student is coming from and if we found a student of a certain ethnic background we focused on finding what is good in that student of course didn't meant that the student was not you know we didn't get the students were not qualified the people who send us applications were themselves qualified because they they they passed the threshold of minimals now the next was are we were we willing to do extra work invest our time energy and attention to and believe me that support once we give it really is rewarding because it just goes to a different level and in other instances where we don't have this it's it's it's it's really like okay you know we we helped you know student or we graduated student but doesn't really reflect and I think what it really takes is is how we go out and stand truth to our values and sometimes it will mean that we might have to be innovative in approaching certain you know academic or meritorious kind of you know distinctions. Can I make this okay I'm Sampath Kumar and and super in nature from TIFR and as a matter of fact I'm now sort of formally associated with my watch and center in some capacity. So I think I I I like your lecture. I made very interesting point. I completely agree with the Ravi. I mean it's something has something has to be done definitely but I just want to make two three one is that the vegetarianism need not be connected with the Brahminism. You have a non-Brahminist or vegetarians. I mean therefore don't you should not use vegetarianism to talk about to cast or underprivileged or privileged. The second point I want to make is that I happen to sit I have some experience on various. I eat in Isis. I must say that if you think that the discrimination of selection the absolute no select discrimination of selection for example number that I can guarantee in fact people are trying to make extra efforts to try to see whether there is any OBC or a schedule cast thing member and it is not that easy. I'll come to the next point. Now therefore I agree with Ravi that there are special outcomes or maybe without any bias without discrimination people are actually trying to see whether some people can be infected from that class. But if person doesn't meet the criterion ultimately sometimes you know if you really take somebody it could be it could be with OBC it could be upper cast lower cast doesn't matter somebody far below the level students who they are going to train they will eventually suffer you know five years down the line everybody will review they perform as per the merit which you have you are awesome to live then the question would come the test person has been thrown out because I mean he belongs to some undergraduate class. So therefore we have to be very careful when it comes to academic I other jobs I agree an academic some bare minimum standard is expected. Now I agree with you when you have 75% population below a class you can't you find the problem is somewhere else where to start from class one under elementary school we have to go to that particular you know by the by the I myself took some students belonging to so-called schedule cause I came to know the BSE I came the person very but I took an extra effort to give a project in my laboratory I invited him I spent some time he did extremely well even published a paper with me in one year and now he is a scientist in B.R.C. What I want is that there people I would say academic community in general particular days I don't know about the world and days aren't trying to they don't look at which cause somebody belongs to they try to see what a person whether it come to something in let me even person I have a bill I have a respect of the cast it right is how best to give a chance to bring them up. I think by and large people are making an effort then they may have a very the problem problem in my opinion is that you see people are really go to the villages even people at all level politicians need to go to educate people please come for education please come for education give them enough support and try to give at that level you require proper education not that you know PST level you know when it's somebody at your PST you require very minimum background or the pillow will feel miserable so you have to start from that level educate them give not a moral support given encouragement there you don't I think that is being done by providing scholarship everything but enough is not being done still the politics being used a vote back is a fact so you want to really start support at that level and bring them up and say to glue the women then question come in why how many women are in science same question we keep meeting of the question comes up so I would say by and large as my knowledge goes wherever committee which I said there is no discrimination only things that even a very minimum threshold we don't have this is a fact the problem is the merits I mean this is my observation sorry I don't know that Ravi I don't know Ravi agrees with me so hello yeah hello yeah hello I'm so now I'm here yeah I let Suraj respond and then so now you can give me time I want to reflect on Mr. Sampath Kumar Ram's views definitely discrimination and discrimination I will talk after that okay is this is Vinod part of the TIFR community hi yes I know you I'm so now we know TIFR working and I'm one of the member here being as a SC background why don't you then talk instead of me talking yeah yeah okay okay I have listened this Sampath Kumar Ram and the one point which I want to raise is that see I am working in homeover centra was science education which is part of Tata Instruct Fundamental Research and this is one of the section in this in this section till 1993 there was no research scholar exam till 1993 from its inception right so you can you can guess that what kind of reservation it was this institution was only open for other classes and not reserved and let me tell you that being as a result that person see for deprived people or lower economical status people one of the major task and one of the major challenge in city like Mumbai or Pune or any metropolitan city is that they want to become strengthened by their economy only not by education they don't prefer to get doctorate degree okay this is my one point they don't go for higher education they want safety for their life that is why they go for job they will go even for a lower job in say any other service or labor work other than getting the higher education because it is the priority and the main thing is that they are economically low background and they and so that the caste is there and this is the casteism you are talking about the casteism as a discrimination and this discrimination is there from all the institutions in India from their inception you see in the TFR in the academic none of the person at a professor degree is a scientist so called professor he is not from any SC or SC background not a single that is what I know since my service of 30 years okay so you can understand and what we get we buy the airplanes and the balloons from China we we purchase our firefighter plane from the countries whose population is 7 crore only right we purchase everything from outside and we only export the agriculture thing our country is only agricultural best you can understand that in the recent pandemic period we have understood that only farmers in the country have given birth to our country not any other thing this is the discrimination thank you very much you can reply on that professor you can that you can give your discrimination I'm trying to distinguish should not be there is something I have a 99 degree I do not know it should not be that I'm all for supporting it one should do that and she should start from right from a loyal level you should be at a high level as a loyal level do the proper support anchorism go out to help them out bring them to the polls this is what I'm trying to say one should do one should encourage it all you should be done at all levels then it is easy to identify kind of what bright when they come to a higher level see the thing is that you people mean open category people they don't want any other cast people in the institution that is all that's all I am very clear about that I'm not getting any fight here I made an observation I'm not fighting I'm I'm I support all I'm sure we should support right from low level so easy to identify brighter kind I thought I myself I myself took some candidates when I came to know from a college and Bombay and I supported doing very well okay I'm all we should we should we should we should try to find out that you should be at all levels easy if you do from from loyal levels easy at least 10 years on the line you'll find much a large number of candidates I'm taking it a positive input I'm not trying to criticize I'm trying to get a positive suggestion once you do it at all levels. Suraj you want to respond a couple of questions in the comment section as well. I think are you saying someone else wanted to they are raised and if they want to. Yeah yeah yeah so if you want to reply for some words and we know it's points you can do that and then we can take up these questions or I can take it up right now or if they had a point on similar we could take or else anything else I can just reply that's what I'm at this point is slightly different I should see yeah I should I should point this related I she want to speak that out or should I read it I would just prefer to hear Dr. Okay I think you know. You know what one of the one of the you know I think differences we don't really explore as we are not willing to be vulnerable in this conversations what we usually do is we try to have a very need your type of engagement with his questions now. Mr. Sampath Kumarans point is very valid in this case he is saying we should start from the childhood that should happen but what about those who are already here with you will you send them to primary school now if they're with you right there you need to find a solution in that space. And for that to happen we cannot apply same metrics of merits because merit is not static have proven in my research they've been you know my colleagues at business school have been talking about especially in the enterprise I think the and it's very interesting for me especially the conference papers that we get special and you know especially in America when they're looking for diversity candidates Indian Romans are the first to file their positions into you know this and I've seen this within the post doctoral especially you know in the engineering department at MIT's but we were just doing a cursory glance of what kind of postdocs come from India and look at the car statistics. So what happens is we are willing to work within the dynamics of reservation contra diversity when it comes to drawing benefits outside India but we are not willing to emulate the similar work ethic in our own self and I think that that's the that's the level of what I was calling initially is a very hypocritical stand. So what we what we what we perhaps need to think is how about we all work on two projects. One is of course Mr. Sampath Kumar's important point of let's start from the beginning and that that that is not saying let's start from the beginning that's like we need to do active engagement on that we need to extra work but also finding out going out finding out people from the community hiring them and and and preparing them and and it's very good to know that his students are doing well in BARC. You see that's the kind of inspiration we need to create we cannot create repetition of Agra Harams. We cannot have this repeating every stage of life. It's a difficult status and so what we need to also understand is the over an extra representation of certain communities. We need to identify how many percentage of Brahmins exist how many percent of Banias how many percentage of this Khatris are dominating this positions because it is at the end of the day a matter of democratic charter. If we are not willing to replicate that then what we essentially do is we don't contribute much to the field much to the knowledge because contributing to the field is not just publishing a journal article and advancing the knowledge but also changing the way the structure is and we really need to you know emphasize that again and again as I have said already if we needed women candidates we found women candidates. We didn't you know we also of course looked at oh you know what even if she's moving you know she needs a preferential treatment let's give it because we have to correct the wrongs we have not had a woman representation in this field and and let's do it. Similarly you know we have we should now start I don't know much happens but especially for the people who are physically challenged. They this kind of under representation is what is very you know essential to how we how we how we work with this and and and and in this field especially which is very much a you know people say you know we need people of certain qualifications to come here you know I don't think that's as difficult you know I mean every field has its own niche you know every field needs certain qualifications what we need is is is effective is to you know like I personally mentored a student who was you know who wanted to study law but who had come from you know science discipline physics mostly and you know it took me some time to mentor the student and of course you know he's he's he's you know he has passed away he's gone to Oxford and you know doing his own things but what that really means is I found that student interesting I found the student was invested although it didn't come from law field he said he wanted to do something in law I had interviewed him and I found him and you know the process began I think that's what I'm trying to essentialize emphasize that there is no essentialization of selecting or rejecting all it does is how courageous how morally accountable are we willing to be to our own self and to the constitution of this country. Thank you so much. We have a couple of questions. Gina asked how is giving opportunity presence of representation of few people from marginalized community can help the whole of marginalized community to grow can it act otherwise instead. Oh, I think it's an important question. Gina Trayman has raised you know the few people and I'm totally I'm totally on sync with that but again the point is we need someone. You know and and and what that few people can do in most instances at least from the I can talk about SC ST experience mostly SC experiences it creates a almost a snowball effect. You know we need people we see first of all people ask me personally what you want to I say I want to inspire people I want to inspire because if I'm if I'm able to plant the seed of inspiration my job is done because the more inspiration we get the more we kind of work around right and and and for that to happen. If we are able to even get those few that few might cannot into many. Right and that many can be then you know of course we most and and and and so forth but again you know if you if your argument Gina Trayman is that the few people that you know we are hoping might instead not help the majority I mean there's always the case but that's not something we need we need to think about right now when we don't even have a model to compare with and and that's why I think if that few could be many I'm all for it but there should be no less than few. Gurinder wants to ask a question. Yeah go ahead Gurinder. Can you hear me? Hello. Yeah. Yes yes yes. Go ahead. Yeah no I the argument that okay so we should actually kind of start from you can say primary level and then the argument that actually there are not you can say enough students at PhD or you can say higher levels. I think it's a related argument this it's a circular thing. So since so since you don't have a presence of you can say these SEST obviously or other you can say marginalized people in academia or in the higher education institutes. So so it actually kind of feeds to the like so so so your education or your whole whole what is the kind of science the kind of education you are doing in the institution is actually you can say kind of based upon single you can say ideas or perspectives and that's what feeds to the you can say primary education also. So so so if you have people from different we can say if you have people from diverse backgrounds in academia that will also actually kind of impact who is actually coming into the primary education even because because the kind of science or the kind of issues that those will be taken up so they will make a change in what is being taught in the schools also I think what is meaningful in education. So this is my comment. I have a question I think it's for HBCSE people like I was wondering about the reservation policy like which is being followed across the country why it is not you can say followed for PhD students and faculty at HBCSE or TAF or is it followed? So should I respond to that? I mean that's a sort of question about official policy. See most institutions in the country follow reservation for various categories. I mean either staff or students or admitted etc because they're forced to by law and some institutions are exempted from that from being forced and TAFR is one of them. So if TAFR if the law was applicable to TAFR TAFR would have to follow it and since the law is not applicable it does not follow it. In fact what is desirable is that voluntarily those institutions which are not legally obliged to follow reservation should follow a voluntary policy of encouraging diversity which has not happened which is unfortunate. I think it's time that we started doing that proactively and I you know I'm happy that some of the Dr. Young's suggestions are you know in that direction and we'll certainly I hope that we take it up seriously as an institution. I think whether to conduct pre-doctoral camps we did that for women master's students in physics recently TAFR and Homi Baba Centre collaborated but we should do it for other diversity groups and particularly for STEM education. I think that's a good suggestion. The other suggestion that came from him of having you know putting in extra efforts to bridge whatever gap is there in terms of qualification or in terms of expectations that we have for the PhD program. How do we do that? I mean that's daunting because I'm you know reflecting back on my own efforts as a PhD supervisor and so on. I think it's going to be difficult but we can't avoid getting into it and certainly I think it's well taken if we want the community to be diverse and we look for diversity. We are going to do that. We are going to find a good point and therefore the corollaries that we haven't been doing it so far which is also true. I think and I accept that and I think we should thank you for that talk. No, that's indeed. I mean, thank you Professor Brahman and I think it's a it's a welcome step that you know there's something of that you know I supervised two Brahmin students just to give an example. You know who come to Harvard of course and so you know I you know one of the things was I had to put my extra efforts in them as well right and and and and because they were doing something that was really putting them out of comfort zone not that they were not talented not that they were not qualified it just that it took a conscious effort from me to really mentor them spend more time with them and you know I'm happy to inform one of them is doing great you know started a new program you know but but what that really also made me realize is that if I had ignored the students who really wanted to do an important research I would have really deprived them of this future opportunities and of course in our own supervision we see these kind of parameters and you know what you know Mr. Sampath Kumar and said is in the review process and all and all I mean you know let's not get into bureaucratic hangovers in this right I mean one of the you know punishing aspects specially the IT's the experience within the student has been that once they got into PhD program published with their co-super supervisors as a co-author you know during the process the kind of cast angle really bothered you know much of them most of them were North Indian Brahmins especially at Kanpur really penalized their own students you know what I mean like this is this is highly inethical where a supervisor is complaining or strategizing against his own student I mean you invest so much it's almost like you know your prodigy that's going to carry your name to new circles and that's what I really you know invite my colleagues in the supervision supervisory role here is to actually think about your role as a epoch maker or you know changing the way things have been and I think you know and that takes a little bit of effort but I think if we are able to streamline that within a generation things will change and I think one of the ways I always tell is if you want to leave a legacy that is really going to be resounding is not to you know produce the same form of people with the same sort of names is to get more diverse people so there is an acknowledgement there is a conscious and you know not to say my colleagues especially in I am are themselves Brahmins but they have taken upon themselves that they are not going to carry on that as it has been and I think that's that's sobering for personally for me and they did that they did that some of them who who got them into program the students are now in foreign country you know doing doing great so I think I just wanted to kind of you know congratulate you for for for acknowledging and you know also add my support to that initiative I have a point regarding the comment you made about privatization so I think we need to distinguish here between for profit and community initiatives which are also private I'm basically talking with my experience or from the context of Kerala very few look at it's perhaps the only Indian state where Muslims are at par with any other community in terms of education and all other parameters and many I mean if you look into what resulted into this we can find that it has been lots of community initiatives like private run but community initiatives schools colleges I mean which resulted in this so we have to distinguish between like if Muslims in Kerala also have waited for like angels from government to come and salvage them I think they would have been in the same state as as they are in in other states so initiatives from within the community of course there has been many other factors which have positively enabled them to do it but private initiatives from within the community can help a long way that's my observation that's good. I think you know one of the things like for example TFI is not mandated similarly much of the private institutions most of the Ivy Leagues in America are not mandated you know but they did that and you know and the standard was not compromised Ivy Leagues are still the leading institution and this is the history you know dating civil rights 1960s Jews were not even allowed right so what so what it is really providing a unique opportunity to not think about a knee jerk reaction to certain things you know think about investing in future and really this is a future if the Ivy League institutions had remained confined to Wasp you know the Anglo-Saxon a Protestant kind of ethic it would have gone to dogs it would all have produced you know Kennedys and the likes so so there is a very you know and of course Obama you know again and exemplifying example is so what we need to do is we need to consciously direct and take an example from the rest of the world why are these institutions the way they are and I think there is a more you know nuance and subtlety than what our you know visible or ice can see so I so so so to that Masood you know these institutions are private you know you know there is no government aid of course government kind of helps them with the status of taxes but otherwise you know there is there is a certain responsibility that people have reckoned with okay so we have a couple of comments in the chat box we want to reply to that sure I can I can read it I think it is unconscionable for upper caste persons in the Academy to argue that spaces like TFR are non-discriminatory they are built on structures of oppression that make them hostile and even violent towards members of non-dominant castes as a Brahmin woman I have found stem institutes in this country to be hostile to me I can only imagine how much worse these institutes can be for persons from non-dominant caste communities it's one comment yeah go ahead I think you know I think the commenter really you know told what it is I think you know even the woman experiences you know are not mainstreamed it's mostly a Brahmin male which goes under the name of Hindu male you know and and if you look at the statistics of all India level you know representative survey at least I'm talking about 2017 1873 percentage of faculties across institutions six types of institutions are their categories of education institute 73 where Hindu male which is really and you know of all that Muslim women were 0.5 percentage so so if you look at the diversity status and schedule cast schedule drive schedule drive schedule cast where 5.4 and schedule drive to 3 percentage this is this is and if you look at the female of all this they fair pretty low comparatively the Hindu female where represented as opposed to the you know non-representer and I think this is where the person was raised the comment her and other women folks should take upon themselves that you know your struggle is not only yours you can make it broader struggle you can you can create a big tent get the people who are fighting for diversity of various sorts cast region you know class sexuality all related politics you need to you need to you need to get you need to create a good corpus in that and so I think it's an appeal to the women folks of dominant castes to actually take upon themselves as well to try to create a you know inroads into this. Okay another comment I'm glad to have shared a space with you though Mr. Yang they agree with you that cast does not exist for those who are privileged we can initiate dialogue among people around us deliberately considering the marginalized communities our education should make us aware of reality of our society make us inquire about this certain nonce which highly differentiate among people certified I think you should you should organize more you know a non-science reading groups or you know create an unofficial kind of education groups read novels which can talk about cast social issues organize film clubs so kind of sensitize yourself don't be like the atom or don't be like a solid stone that doesn't change you know we need to we need we are humans and our heart can change and just not use the elite argument of science as being meritorious doesn't really sit well at least with global experiences. Okay there is one from Vinod again recently all directors body in India wrote to PM and central government that not to implement reservation in scientific institutions what's your reflection. Yeah I mean you know I think it's more professor Subramaniam can comment to that as to how he thinks about this because you know see you know one of the things we started at least to 2017 onwards we targeted on IM actually went to court because you know they are mandated and you know they and and and and by that time the BJP government immediately passed a law to make IM kind of exempt exempt from this you know and it has really created this you know extremely kind of bland space you don't really want it it's really it really reeks of elitism and and and disgrace if you find it and I think they want to do you know more and more because they know we are challenging them you know we challenge them in the court and I think we really should examine what science science is in India you know there is a book Abbasur has written about it especially talking about experience of science book is called radiance radiance of Abbasur she's a professor colleague at MIT look up and she talks about women in science but also about schedule casts within the within the space and that can be a good study Meghna at Sahar for example you know for all good reasons I don't know how many of you are even knew about him but but I think these are the these are the caricatures that you know we need to we need to see and and I think the leadership should now you know take upon themselves that's what I'm saying like they will go under the same argument I have helped somebody that that's not going to help you're not don't help anybody just follow the constitution your responsibility on a calm table to a common document if you are not you're a criminal and criminal needs to be penalized according to criminal act if you are against constitution and these people are no different than the people who are trying to incite war in the country because they don't want to respect constitutional norms constitution is something that binds us together but under the logic of extra cost of science is apparently beyond constitution is extra constitutional mandate tomorrow you might create a terror attack and then create you know we have to really and and and let me tell you Switzerland especially ZTE institutions and and other institution have done that America has done that UK has done that a son has done that for all reasons you know why not us why not you know and by the way people are not like they don't go to CERN they don't go to you know Caltech or others they go there they benefit out of it so why not then implement the same when you come back I think this is why many of us are you know disappointed and saddened that people when they benefit from this do not want to share this so that's my anguished and sad response to your invocation you know there is a connected comment to that by Nagarjun nonmandate is an excellent opportunity to show the way we are not mandated because we are expected to experiment more bravely as I think the coach of today's talk then yeah the title of the book is it dispersed radiance cast gender and modern science in India and that's it so any other question or a we are very fast yeah since dr. M. day you know specifically wanted me to respond I think to that news report of course I mean you know I'm not completely free to you know express an individual opinion but I do feel that in return for what these institutes are demanding that is exemption from implementing the you know constitutional reservation in return for such an exemption they must be asked to produce diversity statistics set targets for themselves and do it in the way that Nagarjun is suggesting I think if it's a nonmandatory and voluntary embracing of diversity and they must set targets for themselves which in a reasonable period reaches the kind of levels which are mandated by the constitution I think that would be a fair demand in my view and I think these institutions should be held accountable in those ways including tf that kind of a pressure must exist I think on these institutions thanks case any any other questions or comments or if not we can wind up okay and let's is there a comment okay then let's join let's thank Dr. young day for such a wonderful talk and the thank you thank you I appreciate it I appreciate very much thank you thank you thank you Professor Bruno thank you I use thank you Masu thank you all the excellent colleagues here and as well as online on YouTube I've learned a great deal and I hope to learn more you know this was education experience and thank you for being open to hearing the critical thoughts that I have and I think I think I can see I can see there is an air of acceptance and change maybe when pandemic is off and then I'm in India I'll come to have a vegetarian food in one of your messes and we will talk more on this good fish and I guess welcome occasionally chicken also I think yeah and most welcome so again thank you take it all stay strong and fight going bye