 Call being of the Arlington Redevelopment Board for August 19th, 7 p.m., and our first item of business tonight is the continuation of the hearing to reopen the special permit docket 2911 at 319 Broadway, the common ground restaurant. As you might recall, we discussed this quite a bit at the last meeting. We had public comment lasting over, I think, an hour and a half. And we continued it so that the applicant could come back with some different things that the board had requested in order for it to make a sound judgment. Since that time, we've received different materials from the applicant. And before I bring the applicant up there, up here, I should say, to kind of present some of these things, I would like to point out that we've had an initial plan or what was termed a final plan on Friday that was distributed to the board. And then that seems to have changed fairly soon before the meeting at about 3 o'clock today. I think that the general was able to send us a new plan, interior plan with new numbers on folks or seats that are being requested. So I'm going to bring the applicant up now, but just for the board, maybe a discussion with the board, I think as far as the late plan is concerned, and we can talk to the applicant about it. My thoughts are, and here are a few of the things, is that I don't think that we've had enough time to digest the mid-plan, and that with respect to parking and the seating, the seating and the parking that goes along with it, my inclination is to continue to the next meeting that portion. Now we can discuss among ourselves whether we think it's efficient, since we do have time on the agenda tonight to talk about filtration, soundproofing, and I believe there was hours of operation and important schedule with three other pieces that we had asked for some information on. So that would be my inclination up front. I don't think that the changing in the different pieces, I personally don't feel like I've had enough time to digest it, and I'm not quite ready to talk about it. If the board feels otherwise, then I'm happy to discuss it, because that's my inclination on that. Can I first say, the only reason why it's changed the last minute is because Michael Burns of the building department, his facts, he gave to us, and he's not going to have to pay on Friday. He missed, he's given to missing out on the stacks, and he rearranged, he told us something today. And with that, it was able to increase the fright. Okay, so that's the reason why it was changed, because of this communication on that part that he gave us information. So with that change, it's actually decreased from the original plan, and it's only a difference of three parking spaces. Right, and I understand circumstances, et cetera, but I'll just point out, as just a matter of fact, you've got 94 seats in the back house showing on this plan, or at least you're adding up to 94, and you've only got 90 seats. So I really feel like this is not fully baked at this point, and I really feel like, you know, I understand you felt the time crunch to do it, but... Yeah, it's just become a financial issue now, that it's becoming that each time it gets lapsed off, it's costing you $10,000. Yeah. I mean, it's becoming a front-row, I mean, it's something that you need to actually work, and also the timeline on building this stuff out is going to be pushed back in a few more months, because none of the other jobs are fine, and it's becoming an issue where, if I can continue or not, because of that, it's going to be... I just want to point out to the people in the back, just to address your point, Michael, is that there are those full-time contractors. Yeah. So they can move around, they can be set up beneath the configuration. Well, she has been shown a case of six here, and four off, and I don't know if they would just squeeze four more people into them, or three out of them. Yeah, just doing this in 98. But she'll in 90s, just change the community. But the thing we originally came in at was, people... Mr. Chairman, I want to pardon the introduction, but might we have the fan off while we're discussing the material? It's very hard to hear the voices that are projecting away from us. That's fine. Thank you. We came in the original 228. The board did ask Mr. Oguin to look to decreasing the seating capacity of the restaurant. He's down, as of this afternoon, down to the 200, so he's cut 28 seats out. And he was specifically asked to look at the backs, and he has cut out 18 of them. We're out of 118. 114 for 14 in the back. 108 for 14 people. Yeah, and he's cut down the toilet house as well. So he's cut out a total of 28 in order to, one, bring it into compliance with the zoning, excuse me, the building codes, but also to decrease the need for parking and any negative impact that may or may not have been perceived in the neighborhood. I know we got this too late today, but I would ask the board to not continue because the configuration of the interior, I don't think the configuration is within the sports area. The total number of seats, yes. Yes, the total number seat is, and he's putting forth here 200. If you have an issue with it showing 90 and 96, you'll cut it down to 90 to limit the back at that just so we can move forward. It's willing to do that. But I would want to go forward today and not continue because we're scheduled, we will be scheduled by the end of this evening to go in front of the Selectment on September 9th, and they want to write an appointment at this point before they'll hear us. I don't know if that's the normal standard or not. That being said, I think we can address all the other issues, and then parking. We had the tax study, and he did get a report and an analysis from Howard Stein, which was circulated last week to you guys, which shows that there is capacity for 185 if we're adding three or four additional parking spaces. I believe within those two reports there's still capacity for those additional four spots within the 1,000 foot radius. That's called the bylaws. John, I agree with you it doesn't. I don't think it's relevant within the sports preview about where the seats are located inside the establishment. We are concerned about the total number of seats and how that impacts the parking. It is confusing when earlier, I had a Thursday or Friday, we were down to 185, and we're going back up to 200, and the parking study that was submitted was based on a 185 total seat count. We can get into the details of the parking study in just a second, but as I read the study, there were times where there was sufficient capacity within the 1,000 foot radius and other times where there may not have been capacity or you were bumping up very close to the capacity level, specifically Saturday mornings, and I bear in mind the comment of the author of a study that re-time is at 11 a.m., which is not really the main operating hour of the restaurant, which is going to be more around the one o'clock timeframe, and there could be some difference on that, but even so, I think that's where, if I can speak for my people just a second, it's difficult for the board to know until you tell us exactly how many seats we're looking at and which plan we're looking at, which one is operative and whether or not the parking study is still relevant if we're going above 185 seats. And I'll also add to that that the other part of this is understanding that the Building Enforcement Officer is okay with the number of seats and how it's done, and I don't think we have that at this point. I don't know if he spoke with Carol or not this afternoon. I spoke with him after I circled his plan, because he's the one who came back to us with it, and I said yes. I understand, but we've had two weeks here, and so the problem becomes is we've got nothing in front of us saying that 200 is okay, that 185 is okay. Frankly, he told me he never sends written opinions. We can ask for him, if it's a concern, we can ask for his opinion, and we've not received that opinion, because it's been moving. I'd like to speak to whether or not he had any conversations this afternoon or whether he's given any thumbs up or not. I don't know what the gentleman did. Agreed. But having him off Carol, he spoke to him on this afternoon. The last time I spoke with the Building Inspector, he said he still needed time to review what he had most recently been provided with. He fixes on this and agrees to go with 90 in the back. And the Building Inspector, like Mr. Burns put it to me, it's always provided within conformance with the building laws. Providing he has built eight companies, yeah. He wants to make a condition. If you make a condition, which the select man always do as well, he'll have a condition upon finding who will be building the partner and you're in the health department. It's like I can't obviously direct him and it won't give him any indication to give it a written opinion I can ask. But I'm not asking you, what we're asking for him is, and which is part, if you look at the bylaw, you're to provide him with copies of it so that he can recommend or provide his professional opinion on what it is and that's what we've asked for. And to date we have not received that because the plan keeps on changing. Part of it is, this is at three o'clock we've had a new set of plans. This is the, at least third, maybe fourth set of plans, which granted we did ask to just go back and change it so fair enough. The problem becomes is that it's been moving and this has a ripple effect. It has a ripple effect on the application that was provided and the number of spaces that are being reflected. It has different ripple effects going all the way through. And it just, and actually I'll ask for other comments from board members as far as their opinions on moving forward or on the information in front of you. Can I just say one more thing? As of today, he was talking to the engineer of my architect and he's went back to them and said, oh, it's a problem with him. So I agreed and that's why they changed it and he told her that he was okay with the plan that she handed him and that's why I told him, John, to confirm that he was talking to you guys and from my understanding he was communicating but again, right, I can't honestly say if he was or wasn't but according to me, he okayed it and that's the only reason why we moved forward in it and since you guys are fans of the first place other than I wouldn't have sent him and we did change him because of the fact of what he told us to do in the sense of moving to IELTS and stuff and when he came back to us today he came back to our deck before he even talked to me to any of us he told her and she's the one contacting me about the change. So that's the reason why he's been moving on a regular basis and that last, I heard is he did okay so I don't know what else to say and we would step with the 185, we'd take it on and if that was the only requirement again but now that he gives us the freedom to increase the front of it and decrease the back, that was more of our aim. If you're willing to lock the back in at 96 94 That's right, my eyes are gone. He had, she had 94. Right, so you're cutting out four additional seats and he's willing to lock that down and agree to that as part of his that special permit and that would fix your parking at it and the map would be 49 spots instead of 50, right? And that would only be an increase of two spots all three spots over the Friday this Friday I had up one because of the funny map 185 I figured this way worked out I had one additional spot for one. Yes, it would be 49 spots as opposed to 37. Yeah, I know what that's like. Yeah, that becomes like 49 spots. You've got to be there on the 9th. Yes, and they want to accept that until they get them, you guys are retting. So what I'm wondering is if there's a compromise here where we get it if we arrange a meeting that's either following Monday or whatever that allows us to straighten out all those sort of things. We still have time for it. We've got Labor Day that next Monday I mean I could That's Labor Day and the next Monday is the 26th. Correct. I'm not here. You're not here. I may not be here on next Monday. I think that's problematic. The one thing we might be able to do is would people be able to meet a little bit more about that? On the 9th. The dominant board is they would push the back for that reason. No, I understand. But you'd either have it or you wouldn't. It's my point. You'd have this meeting or not. If you schedule the other one. If you schedule the other one. They're going to put you back for at least a couple of weeks. They told me they wanted a written decision and I asked me if that was standard or if it's possible for this board to actually go ahead and get a decision written in those couple of weeks. Or if it's something that usually takes you have to write it and you have to meet again and vote on it. I'm a little bit surprised that they're requiring all of that but that's their board not ours so I can't really speak for it. Don, Chris? One that might be helpful is if we could maybe talk about the parking study and figure out what the number of available spaces are in the thousand foot catchment area. Reverse engineer this and figure out how many parking spaces are there for how many seats could you have at the restaurant. And I don't think we particularly care how many are in the front or in the back. That is something the building inspector and the fire chief take care about. But at least we'd be working with an agreed upon number of how many parking spaces are really available in the Russell Common Lot, the railroad lot and the other public parking spaces and see how close we get to your number. I'm still struggling with parts of the Howard Stein Hudson report but maybe you can shed some light through that John and shed some light on what you think it says. Just discuss everything at least and then see what we can do. So that was what I did. I did not want to have the board feel like they were being rushed into any of it. So if everyone feels comfortable because we're just talking about the seats and essentially then I'm fine with starting the discussion. I just didn't want folks to feel put upon because the last minute nature on it. But have Christine and Andrew and Andy proceed? I'm fine with proceeding. We already have some traffic counts and we already know the situation Saturday midday as you suggested is the worst time. We already know that's the worst time and I don't know if we can reverse engineer it here today but we can talk it through at least. I agree with that. Okay. So the first thing is the parking if you want to check that out. We first started located in Catford Forest from May 20th of 2013 where they essentially did a study themselves of the available spaces within the center but they also included which is beyond our thousand feet library and the entire railroad parking but they didn't what was going the other direction they were concerned with the center parking areas. Quite a lot of detail. The other thing they did not discuss was the permitting and the permit parking determined from the treasurer's office the permitting authority for parking spaces in the Russell Common those are daytime spots 8 in the morning through 6 p.m. Monday through Saturday, Sunday there the permits still apply they also issue permits from 1 a.m. to 7 a.m. but those again would be irrelevant to our our case because the time frame is beyond the time the restaurant's open. With that report Mr. O'Gwynn contacted the Howard Stein folks where they did go to full thousand feet and both sides of the restaurant extended down the Broadway another distance to make it a thousand feet circular map which I wanted to print out in color but I don't have a printer color printer in my office in that they also showed all the restricted unrestricted one hour meter two hours and it goes down quite far down the Massachusetts Avenue and in that comparing the two circles between the PAC study and this study it goes several hundred feet I think from Mass Ave towards East Arlington they capture quite a lot of different on-street parking all of which is unregulated besides for the standard one hour not metered parking with the guy walking around with a chalk but as I look at their report the only time they do find any utilization is in the mid-saturday afternoon and one hour right around six o'clock before the Russell Common lots open and once the Russell Common lots become unregulated it opens up a good was it 123 permanent spaces? I tried to buy Russell Common together Saturday at about six o'clock so you have my seat of the pants looking at it as well what time is that? about 6.30 on Saturday? yeah the railroad is also the parking lot the railroad is a lot behind the Houston Mine Building depends on how you interpret the captured area does it include the whole parking lot because it's a portion of it is or is it just the portion that's in the circle of the thousand foot radius I can't answer that I'm not finding ones that are communicated on a particular point as he said he said that that was considered to be an ample amount of parking right that's what's important if they capture that because of the entrance there's ample parking going down as far as Chestnut Street and I said back to what you're starting so his summaries his bottom line was he found that there was park capacity for the 15 additional which in other words the only time he found real capacity overload was during Franklin Saturday afternoon when Sunday morning church times a double parking as soon as the entire railroad is included how far questions on the parking side or in general actually I'll come back to it I'll take care of the question for the parking so the parking study and looking through it the analysis that you guys looked at H&S the only issue I have with this whole parking study is that it's we don't have a study yet you know TAC did this and looked at two days two specific days two random days two specific times in the same month it's such a tiny tiny sample of what could be happening in that area that's all you had to go on at this point I'm wondering did you pursue pooling all the permits and seeing what was permitted what wasn't that's when this study came up that's when this study came up that's when I spoke to the treasurer's office issues the permits you mean the permits for the different restaurants when we left last time we were going to pool all those permits which was going to be a horrible job I did I also spoke with the selectman's office and a lot of the restaurants do not require special permits those are required special permits so their seating wouldn't be reflected anywhere on the town records they were just they were able to do what they did as a right once they got permission to extend the settlement the seating and the parking that goes with it isn't regulated by any body within the town so that's even less documented than this is it's not documented at all looking at parking counts on different days is probably the best way to get an idea I think it's the only way because you know how many restaurants in our Lincoln Center could only a few of them are actually regulated by this board what I did like about what was done in this analysis was that there were a few recommendations of what could be done to alleviate parking in general in the center not just for your restaurant but for the entire center and I think if we can maybe focus on those instead of the particular numbers because the numbers are kind of they're relevant but they're not because of the small sample you know they're relevant and showing that on these particular days and that Saturday midday you'd be at a hundred and seventy a hundred and seventy percent capacity so you know some of the suggestions were to open up the permit parking on Saturday to the general public and that would help alleviate your most of those permit parking they are issued to who buys the spaces for the academic they're going to buy the spaces every month and then they resell them to the students you know 90 percent 95 percent of their students are from out of town so they drive in they buy the spots from the school on the lottery basis so it varies the amount of spaces they buy year to year if not month to month they told me month to month the engineer looked into it and he goes some months it might be maybe 25 then other ones are it could be 130 CEOs it depends what time of year as well but if you extrapolate that kids get out of school at 2.15 off they go unless they're there for academic reasons after school sporting events club activities so those can make assumptions and enjoy the spaces clear out after 2.15 yeah it's right now it's only a 66 percent capacity when you're at 107 percent overall so attacking that lot seems to be the way to increase parking in general you know you could fit another 28 cars in there if it's 66 percent if it's only 66 percent capacity and you know that would leave you on this board of bobs that would require a bylaw change yeah and that's you guys want to go ahead and change the bylaw so the parking at that lot is a bylaw right now it's a bylaw yeah and in that bylaw they can fluctuate they always have so many permanent spaces but they're not always used correct they always have 165 though it doesn't set the amount of spaces that are it just says the times they always have 123 permitted spaces right that's the amount 155 no matter what but they give out permits to the students sometimes 20 sometimes all sometimes 90 sometimes 90 yeah yeah I mean when the parking study is actually done next year that suggestion to look at that utilization I think was a very sound one and we may find the change in the bylaw is the way there's no money for a parking garage right now then that's the temporary fix a few coming out of the master plan as well right so there's potentially capacity in that respect the other item that you guys touched on in this as a recommendation was to look at some of the private lots playtime was one have you had any conversations with them to see if that's even a possibility I have tried to track down the owners some folks in new well unlisted phone numbers we talked to Greg he says he's live that's kind of I've had discussions with he was kind of called off to find out what it was going to be any charge or if he was very excited about having this restaurant come in and he said he has 35 spaces in the frankly I don't see 35 spaces in that law but he closes sitting with five to seven depending on how he feels that day would make some sort of arrangement if we wanted to I contact him twice and he's caught me going back and going home and busy sorry I'll get back to you he was positive but again I don't know what kind of work that's done he didn't know if he wanted to have rent the spaces from him we'll just volunteer to give him to him at night time or had no arrangement being able to make he wanted to talk to him because that lot is currently at 99% utilization not counting the permit because you can't touch the permit parking on Saturday at 11 o'clock and I know your peak you said was it one o'clock so maybe by one o'clock that percentage would go down but maybe it would go up it all depends on what's going on in the center what time of year it is Christmas shopping time yeah but it's also on a Saturday and my thing is Saturday one o'clock six, seven o'clock at night we could be packed but like you said we'd be happy if I had 20% of the capacity at that time playtime is open on Saturday so at that time it's probably their highest utilization time they close at six o'clock they close at six or seven Thursday yeah but Saturday is the issue and they're open at that time on Saturday so unless they have extra spaces consistently that's something you would need to find out whether that is even an option to help the gym and job or playtime would only be guaranteed spaces at night after the close during the day if we worked something out if they were willing to do this so that's not going to help so depending on how we're going to rule on the railroad a lot if we even can figure that out whether it counts we also have the spaces running down Mass Ave on the opposite direction which aren't counted in the tax study right and it looks like that's about you're doubling the spaces that would be out of the top part of the study if you're taking out some from the top and you're adding some in the bottom that would be bad when you look at the right you're taking away these spaces that were in the study and you're adding this and this so you're adding half of what you're taking away well he's taking out more on the tax because the tax covered the library parking lot yeah then I think H&S disregarded the library brought us back down to the railroad a lot but it's probably conservative because it looks like there's more on-street parking here than there was here almost double but these were one hour versus it's probably the same mix it's probably the same mix and you know the I agree with what they said that these parking may not be used as heavily as the ones right in the center because they're a little bit farther out of the center also so I like some of those recommendations and I thought they were really really valid I think opening up the permit parking somehow is the answer in the copyright fix I'll let other people give some comments Andy could you help me understand this chart which chart I want to know is is that the cap chart or the H&S chart let me put it this way just for a second let's use 47 spaces is that valid enough because it's a little prior to nine spaces well it could be 49 49 so where within a thousand feet do you get 49 spaces but 20 spaces already entwined it because instead of what's happening with the idea of the existing restaurant already existing that you need just 29 plus 29 so where are the 20 where are all 47 is what I'm asking because whatever happened in the existing restaurant you still need 47 49 49 sir we don't have to find the original you don't have to find them you look at Gemma found them it was a long time they have to find 29 that's the presumption from the existing okay we're looking for 29 where are 29 spaces how are you assuming that depends on the time of day maybe the the living answer is within the thousand feet where are the thousand feet within Russell Common parking lot except for that one hour around how many in there what you're saying is that that's on our parking utilization that table they are so take one of them to show you going today having a custom name 5201 your summation line is what boss pointed out you have a grand total within the lots 529 that includes on street of the different varieties and then off street lots and the off street lots include what Russell library are you looking at he's not looking at yours though he's looking at the one for your tax study this one included the library this is still from the tax study last chart table 3 didn't include the library that's probably the one we should be talking about just to avoid confusion this one here this is the one where they took out the library this one so we have a capacity along your left column 464 during the different times of day because they're going for different times of day so 341 464 those are they have the existing utilization I'm not sure what the existing column is they have the existing utilization 7595 99% on that Saturday midday the existing count is just what they counted like in for example the capacity what the tax counted minus the library because they took out the library so the number came down from tax and this is including on street and from my reading of the not creating the other side the other side so this is a total amount of parking including lots permit lots not including the tax which are located 1000 feet they're not utilized so we don't know they didn't count those extra spots they used the tax study so they didn't use all of the spaces they didn't include all of the spaces to the east of the restaurant so these spaces you see this circle here this is what the 1000 feet is but the tax study went up to here because they were studying kind of a circle out here so they included all of this lot they included the library lot they included these they included these parking spaces here so these numbers for on street parking include these parking spaces up here and do not include the ones down here the ones so there's actually a few more on street parking spaces probably you have just MASSAT in Broadway right so you're almost doubling on street in that short section so what's the number of likely to be we don't know nobody went out and counted existing counts of modifications should be discussed and the next column is existing utilization of those at those times of all of those parking spaces so that's just taking the 255 divided and the 341 first one I see consideration at 6 o'clock it completely opens up because all departments cease to exist at 6 right so it's showing that point of drop down to 66 percent so that you get somewhere and you can compare the existing utilization let's take each one as an example so the weekday midday at one o'clock the existing utilization was 75 percent meaning 75 percent of all that parking was full there's 25 percent open at one o'clock on a weekday with the additional spaces that are needed for the restaurant and we're adding two more in addition to what they did in this parking site if we use 90 spaces we're adding two more if we use 94 we're adding three more let's assume we're using 90 so we're adding two more spaces so let's disregard that right now so when they add in all their restaurant spaces based on the 185 count we're at 83 percent utilization so our parking spaces went up so we're at 83 so the proposed count the existing count is one thing and then it goes up so what we're comparing is existing utilization at weekday midday with 75 when you add in all the parking spaces as though their restaurant were full with the function room full you're at 83 percent utilization so weekday midday is no issue it seems when you count all of the railroad line and not count the line weekday evening starts to become an issue but they took the counts at six o'clock which is what Bob is pointing out the parking stops so after that time the lot would start to decline and lose their rest permanent parking all permanent parking spaces open up at six o'clock so they're up at 101 compared to 95 but that 95 by seven o'clock might be down farther work it could be up that's the problem with this I don't know which way it's going to go but if a permit's all expired we're talking about the capacity immediately going up when you talk about the cars moving people might be parked there they don't have to leave just because their permit parking ends at six they can put money in the meter and stay until midnight if they want all the meter stops at six two all the meter stops at six also but they still can stay at zero point but these people the permitted folks can now park in the permit spaces at the six o'clock now what about the Saturday midday so that's the problem but again it's 11 a.m the hypothetical is that beer is going to have to be right at 11 a.m it's 123 permitted spots sold to students and there was permits and one day if you said the permits I said that the students had high school use and on that particular day they were 66 percent full or no 60 they were 66 percent utilized the permit parking so there was 28 cars open basically in a permit parking at that particular time even though existing utilization overall was at 99 percent if we could use the permit parking we could get more cars open so this is pushing the 99 percent up to 107 in this particular time on this particular day but somebody is parking there 66 percent of the cars are there so there could be something going on on Saturdays at the school possibly knowing that there's nobody parking there on Saturdays possibly so this suggested doing a study on that Saturday usage and find out is typically open there and see if we should be looking at that yeah does that answer your question Andy? yeah well there are certain what we see is these two periods look like they're high but what you're saying is it's tweaked by the time of the day that you took it and factors like that permit parking opening up after six on a weekday evening and the issue of students not really being there on a Saturday so those numbers may be skewed why would it not be hottest on a Saturday well on a Saturday I think on a Saturday mid-day you also have the region as well having an afternoon but that's the lowest that's 74 percent what you're tapping is 74 percent is your Saturday evening that's theoretically your restaurant peak time it's that 74 percent utilization I'm just wondering why that's lower than maybe a lot of the stores close and restaurants are open at 7 o'clock the stores are closed so that's when you have access capacity just restaurants are open people are going out to restaurants but not just stores anymore unless there's something going on in the region what I'm interested in is having understood this how this works now how you address maybe you've said it would be good to summarize that when you guys come back to it the reasons that the 101 and the 107 should be how they should be in what context they should be considered so why don't you come back to it so was that so before I come back to Bruce I guess I've just got a couple of observations not really any requests or questions at this point I guess just from my perspective this is just my important discussion is I look at this as two different things almost at this point and I like this chart for that reason we have the front of the house regular restaurant which is we're adding essentially plus six parking spaces in respect of that because we're upping it under the new and final plan 106 seats which is actually seven seven additional spaces so so that's the front of the house and I think that it's obviously tight and I think just anecdotally we all know that parking is tight in the 110 center but I think if we were looking at this project and it was someone coming in with a request for 106 seats we might take a certain of parking as well as everything else moving from 80 to 106 this might be a different conversation then I look at it as a second project and if that is truly a function then I'm not foreseeing some of the parking issues that this leads to such as an 11 am on a Saturday I mean I just my own personal history says that other than maybe a shower maybe a shower that's a function room too but my point is is that this is my own view forget about it here if anyone wanted to do a function room in any of the other spaces CVS closes down and wants to put in 40 seats part of me says that we have to start thinking about this and not being so specific about my own view is exactly right on does the study say that there is enough parking there isn't there's not enough parking for anybody in the center and my personal thoughts on it is that in order to move some of these things forward we have to take a different approach I think that the reason Saturday evening 74% utilization is because people don't do enough to communicate where they should be parking and I think that's the bigger problem the reason that that's so low is because people aren't using that parking lot for restaurant parking they're just going around the block until they find something and parking in front of people's driveways and everything else so my point is is my own personal belief in this whole discussion and everything else I certainly don't want us to absolutely crush the center parking it's absolutely neat to understand what's going on but I look at a function room use I think it's a helpful use to the center I think it's a helpful use to what this town needs and I think from a parking perspective my big thing is is I think it's the most important for folks to communicate where they should be parking because we're going to have this problem no matter what anyone else wants to come in like I said I don't have any questions I don't have anything else it's just for discussion what you're saying is a point of view I'm going to say I think mitigation is hugely important in this regard and as a person coming into this community I really strongly stress that all businesses do what you're saying because I would not feel comfortable unless I make sure everybody knew where exactly park for any kind of event because it's already helpful for them but it's also helpful for the community where people know where they go to structure and if everybody's just leaving like a while west to park wherever you can it's just chaos before we move on to parking mitigation and parking plans I just want to respectfully disagree with you Mike on how you count the parkings of the seats and I don't think there's anything in the bylaw that says we can differentiate between the dining room and the function room maybe that would be a good idea but it's not in the bylaw now and I don't think that we have the authority to read the bylaw differently because it might be convenient for this particular applicant I understand your point I certainly understand that it's like when the folks in the room isn't going to be operating up to all the same times that the dining room is but again if I just go back to the bylaw it says seats in a restaurant it doesn't differentiate what can you put a condition in that says it will be a function room for special events well you could but it's a policing issue that it is but so is everything else that we do okay but if I can just go on I want to also I just wanted to see that author you know one little bit of maybe relief for the applicant you know I personally don't see any problem in counting all the railroad parking area as being within the thousand feet because yes the entrance is within the thousand feet so that helps and I'm just going to go out on a limb and say based on my observation I'm not going to stop at a thousand and one feet if there's a parking space next to it or two spaces over so I don't see a problem including the maximum of count that you have in the railroad parking space but lastly when you come back to this table three I am troubled by the fact that at two of those time periods we are over capacity for a hundred and eighty five seat restaurant I'll be it not by too much but we're over the number there and if we're talking about adding three additional spaces we're incrementally a little further over the number I don't know what the breaking point is but at some point you know we've overclocked the parking capacity there so I'm a little reluctant without evidence to show me what happens at a two hundred seat level to conclude that yes it can continue to absorb beyond capacity so those are my points I agree with Bruce on the railroad app lot I think because the entrances included I know that the thousand feet only includes the one section of it but you're in the parking lot now so I think we could influence that whole part yeah other than that on this particular point I don't know anything else I agree with excluding the railroad lot as well I think that makes sense and I think it's important to take into consideration some of the things we're looking at here do include that a hundred percent with a hundred seven percent here that's Saturday midday like you said there's not all that much of a chance of that being used every single Saturday at the time we're still up at ninety nine percent not that but I think Saturday evening was a main concern I think it's reassuring to know that parking is not being used that's the difference I think that the permits expire at six and all of a sudden I think that seven o'clock Saturday is a more indicative of the true capacity in those lots all these Saturdays right but there's a little issue with the theoretical charming times I agree with the railroad lot I think the shared parking is de facto what's happening but we have something we have discussed this before if an arrangement can be made for a shared parking arrangement an agreement can be made for a shared parking arrangement that can be part of a that can be considered by the board as part of a parking solution I believe that's the case I believe we've done that before in other circumstances it wasn't permitted it wasn't public water public parking but that's going to be after six and those aren't the problem times unfortunately really the 101 could come down because of that so it could help that number but it won't have to help Saturday midday but thinking of it too having your restaurant completely full Saturday midday on your function room maybe that'd be a dream but even a function of 90 people could happen a few times a year but you bring the region theater in here into any of this equation that's correct it's hard to look at just this little slice of time but I think you're seeing the region theater I mean you're right if you bring it in as a 500 seat theater I think you're right but I think you're physically seeing the cars in the study the ones that are actually parked it depends on what's happening but I'm saying you can't say okay and then we're going to toss this on top of it because I think it has to you have to say that the study doesn't include that I mean we have to know that what we're looking at what TAP did was valuable but it's valuable in a very small way yeah a real parking study is what really would tell us what these numbers would be we're still just and we knew that by asking them to give us what they could be addressing and we are we have a little bit more indication on November 17th or whatever day this was this is what's happening are there any other questions on the parking study because I think I'd like to move on to we're definitely behind schedule at this point I'd like to move on to parking mitigation and if you could go through some of those things please we've laid out in two aspects to parking mitigation the first is 3.3 providing employees that's specifically dealing with employees as part of his participative lease with the landlord he is going to actually get two on-site spaces which weren't taken into consideration in the parking study so if in order to encourage his employees which tells us now almost all of them take buses MBTA to and from work if that continues he's going to encourage that he's agreeing we've looked into what time the last buses run through the hikes I put that in the parking portion number 3 of section 1 employee computing and parking the employees who are taking the buses have to leave early to let them go so they make sure they will get that last MBTA bus out of town the stops are right across the street and around the corner in front of the region it's the 77 to Harvard Square and the 65 I believe it was to reach me so those two buses will let employees who need to catch them out so they can catch that last bus out of town it's assuming that employees work out out of town employees do decide to drive he's going to encourage carpooling by those employees by opening up one or both of those on-site parking spots two of them so that will take a few carpooling anywhere from two to three people out of the mix and they won't be driving cars into town of course they will not be able to park in that space right in front of the building because those were all one-hour spots so if employees did drive it after about every hour and chank moved their car that's another reason that employees won't be using their own cars I guess if necessary he could as part of his employee benefits work out some further incentives incentives with them such as subsidizing a Charlie card or whatever but that's it's a decision I'm not going to volunteer he's going to do because most of the employees that were in the industry have work and they were very professional proves being so I understand driving is not it's not a bomb-cut tactic you have mirrors, you're going to have to go out every two to three hours so most of them are taking skateboards, bicycles buses or trains and that's at my place I'm the only one who drives that's only because I had to go to the different markets to pick things up and I have 20 employees there so it's the employees going to say we had to go ahead and be part of the deal it's customer parking we set out a number of different plans to direct them to the Russell Common parking lot as well as that railroad out parking lot and what I've suggested and he's put in there he's going to actively encourage customers not to go down Compton Abalton and Felton streets to look for parking there's no parking allowed what's going to come to is the awareness I am going to put them on all my websites Facebook and Twitter it's basically going to be out there for parking in the word park and general area and any emails and any park in any event or function it's going to be specifically told where to park that this is the place to park for functions and events and usually it's just communication awareness of customers is all that's needed here everybody's happy to know if you tell them where to go we were saying we're on 8th so it's going to be nice to not know where to park or what just so you can guess about it when it functions it will provide specific instructions and on his menu board he'll have a directions how to get to the two parking lots you know that's all detail number 7 questions so at this point do you have a commitment from the landlord for those two additional parking spaces so that would count towards the 29 additional spaces that you were talking about well employees weren't counted in seat count and those are behind the building but that's just two more cars if he won't be putting it on the streets two less cars in public areas it's nice but it's kind of irrelevant to the parking technically technically it would technically it does count because again we're computed the number of parking based on every four seats of the restaurant not necessarily every four customers right but the employees aren't taking a seat the employees aren't taking a seat it doesn't I understand but the calculation where we calculate the number of parking spaces that you need for that for a dining establishment it says one parking space for every four seats of the restaurant doesn't talk about whether that's an employee driving or not it's just a calculation but like the rest of the I applaud you for getting the two extra spaces because two extra spaces takes pressure off some place and I thought the rest of the parking mitigation plan was good I think you're doing everything you can to try to encourage the customers to find the lots in town and I applaud the encouragement to use public transportation the only comments I had were the parking analysis that was done by Hudson's time mentioned that there were other options like other than playtime and maybe doing valet parking there they mentioned a shuttle from alewife is that something you're seriously considering I don't know where that came from I would have had to slide it I don't know what he's talking about I'm going to get to alewife I'm sure you can take a bus to I don't know why they just wanted to check on it and that's some kind of special function going on we're having some kind of bed we contribute to something like that but I wouldn't need to make it so I'm sitting here for that educational run so are we talking about sound mitigation plan too? not yet the only other thing was bike parking was mentioned somewhere that you would certainly put it in if the town allowed you to put it in on public, you'd consider putting it in if the town allowed you to on public property so I'm in one of the towns and I thought I'd print it out and it's probably in here one of the town's GIS map shows a rack but there's not one there but it shows one there I'm just wondering if we want to ask for that as part of the parking mitigation to state something about your intentions on parking I know Boston would consider like a $10,000 bike rack consider to what I might look at a $1,000 bike rack to someone else not looking at a $5,000 the number of sizes sure actually what can I do I would help contribute or help advocate for it and in my means I would be happy to donate to it but I'm not going to put a $10,000 bike rack in it's also town property if they allow but it should be done there's business owners association that's looking into trying to redo the area in front of it and we'll work with them because I'm already having people in the old cultural society and Florian talks about doing the front over with the flowers and stuff so maybe we just need to make a statement in here of your intentions is that something we want or is that not really valid because it's just an intention well if it's not a condition I think I don't know what we could do there I'd like to see something stated I mean I just had a burn a burn function and and to maybe not but we can talk about and I don't know how many bike racks are in the area how many more would be needed it's always going up because biking is going up and I'm all about help promoting it like I said I just had a function with burn the owner of the rooms for the illnesses of promoting last Saturday and I'm sure you'd be happy to promote for the bikes and stuff there okay that's all I had on Andrew anything on parking yeah you mentioned number nine here about customers calling for reservation or providing a new address is there an option to use some sort of similar communication or maybe it's not even an issue to use something like open table for another online I'm not going to use every table I think they are the great restaurants service actually down and just gets confused with communications you know makes up all levels and also food same thing you know the quality just goes way down for it we will have it up on our website a place for parking you can go down the tab it will give you an app direction from where you're going how to get to the restaurant where parking will be will be on our to-go menu we have a lot better and if you know it's well it will be a little linked to it that you connect to and it will bring it up to as well and do it the best I can if you do the game that I love an example of question on item seven how would you contribute I think the bikes is interesting improvements to the Plaza where whatever way I would have to be So, circulating and getting to know individuals, I am very much an advocate on a community, and we're working with to make it better and to help all, everything we can. I mean, I do it on Austin. I have my, we do it in Newton as well. We advocate for that, schools. So when I come in here, I'll be one of us, especially in that square area that I can be defied and make it more accessible to everybody from bikes to foot traffic. I can really honestly say how I would just be a way of, if I could get into one more of the boards to help advocate for parking signs. And just, you know, come up with like some kind of drawing for a better way to communicate where they're at. Maybe more visibility and some graphic design for people to see. And I don't know how else to explain that. Until I got into, you know, just a little bit of a mix. Did you have a big plan to contribute in a way that was paying for signage or? Oh, my mentor, Jerry Quinn, he always said that once you get into community and if you were making money out of that community, you should contribute back to it. And I agree with that one of his then. That's how I was taught. Appreciate the parking mitigation plan. I think it's some of the things that we talked about, but I don't know what you're gonna get. So, folks are okay. Let's move on to the sound mitigation plan. When we were here last time, Christine asked specifically about how the real room is gonna be insulated for sound or protection of any of butters when we did provide plan A300, which I think you all have, where they are having a furring wall. And I think he'll build it out here. I'm crazy. No architect, but seven inch furring wall with a gap space, three and a half inches of sound attenuation, insulation, and three quarter inch wall board. And that is all up against a cinder block wall. So he's gonna have quite extensive sound insulation in the back there. And there were no windows in the back. Nope, he doesn't have to put any windows in the back. The only exit is the emergency fire draw which would be kept closed at all times. Except for emergency. Except for emergency, yes. And him to go further into that, the function room will not be having any live bands or ticket sales. It won't be having any, it's a function room. It's not a concert hall. It will be used as one would go, a name, baby shower, christening, or whatever. You're not gonna have music or sound system projecting so loud that the folks can't talk for the purpose that they are. Correct, it's not gonna just, I mean, you're gonna have a brush on right next door. So right in front, so there's no way they can have sound going that loud. Like it's some kind of 1,000 person, great night cover type of thing. I mean, it would be impossible. And also in the back there, it's not gonna appreciate the fact of the noise being that loud. It's gonna be the more they wanna communicate to each other. And again, it's gonna be, most likely it's gonna be from baby showers or functions to birthday parties. I don't see anything. Corporate events, small corporate events that drive me crazy with the music. There's probably gonna be two big speakers that they bring home, DJ in, because I'm not gonna provide sound system for the DJ that they're bringing home in, which are probably gonna be two speakers. And have it loud, they can get that to a certain point without me telling them to turn down that loud as well. In the front of the house, he anticipates having no amplified music. Two to three keys, and Sunday, Sunday to Sunday jazz. I like the Sunday jazz, yeah. Two to three keys. Right back there, exactly. Non-amplified, so no amplified music. He's not gonna be doing karaoke in the front of the house. In the karaoke, it's only basic. Someone books a karaoke party for themselves that they're bringing their own karaoke. It's not me doing karate in a karaoke. It's me, you know. I'm not promoting karaoke. I'm just saying that. If someone comes in, they wanna have a party, a corporate, and they wanna bring karaoke in, I'm not gonna object to it. I'm just not promoting it. There'll be no outside speakers. I don't know outside amplified music of any sort, which is whatever ambient house going to come out. As far as the dumpsters, they're in the rear of the place. Keep them as far as possible as they can, even though it does to an extent designate where they have to be. But we'll work to get those as far away from the property lines. And as close to the other having restaurants and businesses, dumpsters, they all have the new plastic lid, so they open them up. You don't get that loud metalic band anymore. You just get the noise of the lift truck coming in. And Harlequin does have bylaws regulating these times, days, and noise when he can and can't do these sort of things. It's gonna make sure his, okay, guys. And one of the things I will do is talk to the people, businesses in there, and if they are having their dumpster trucks coming after that time, I will talk to them about I think it would be more appropriate for them to bring in within the time we can share, so they can do it after them. Because there's no point. It's in the back there, it's not disturbing their business for someone to come in and put a coffee after them to the dumpster. It doesn't make sense for them to come in two o'clock in the morning. So he'll, you know, through his contracts with the good companies and make sure they don't force their bylaws to stay within those bylaw times. And he's also agreed for the butters to provide them as contact information for, I think that they have concerns so they can contact him directly regarding sound orders to eliminate customer issues. And I don't know, last time they were public comment, some people come down into the neighborhood's tip seat and doing such sort of things as that. These aren't all, they are already existing. But Bob will, I'll be, you can leave myself open for communication about the sound noises of the deliveries, deliveries out in the street that you or me have not, I'll be happy to help, you know, tell the other distance owners and the guys and stuff. But the reference to people coming down the street or doing create, I'm not going to be about the place. Yeah, I'm just going to remind you that I'm very much into the communication, the way you're joining in because hopefully they will be my customers coming in and they'll want the main reactant. Okay. Questions on sound mitigation? Bruce? I don't have any questions on sound mitigation. No, they've answered all my questions. Andrew? Yeah. Okay, let's just run through the last couple here, Kevin and Ross, filtration? The filtration system he's posing is a, I believe I sent out a spec board that's a one and a half inch stainless steel welded point filters that currently uses a designed trap grease and to his own voters. His big thing is that they can very little any fry, fry ladders are your main problem of grease and smoking orders because they do very little. They currently, what he has in the Austin restaurant is very efficient filtration for the restaurant. And I'll tell you a little more about how that works. He would like to use that type of filtration systems in the point where they put out all the grease. Grease is basically the odor and evolution of the air on it. If you look at McDonnell, if you go by that, you'll see the smoke is dark. It's not, I mean, it can be middle of summer, it's still dark, it's just not clean. Anytime we can buy my restaurant, you won't even see smoke except for a wintertime that's the heat coming up out of it. We've been very little frying, we change oil every day to every two days just to keep it cleaning, fresh tasting for what we do at fries. Other than everything else, we always saute that and we have very little coming out of there. Any questions? I have just one. Will you be reusing what's already there? No, no, no, I'll bring it because that one is there. It doesn't have the makeup air. I just wondered if you considered a carbon system and if you decided not to, why you wouldn't use one? It's because, first of all, it's $30,000 more. Just on top of my regular filtration system that I have already. He did look into it. One, frankly, it seems a little overfilled for his organization. Carbon filters are $100 each. You would need 12 of the filters that have to be placed twice a year on top of the actual system then. But there's two different things. They've got filtration and also you've got a carbon filtration system that is an addition to your food system that takes that air, sort of places it back through, and it comes back out through the food system again. And that's an additional $20,000 to $30,000 in cost and takes up space that's needed. But again, and the current yearly cost may occur in it. But again, based on the way we are cooking stuff, there's very little smell at all if any. Of course, you're going to have some of the grill, but most of that's caught by the filters that are there. And we are looking into their charcoal filters that actually will take the place of the ones that are there. And those are a little bit more expensive. They might filter out pretty much another 90% more of the stuff, but we're looking into deciding right now. And that's usually pretty applicable. But at this point in what we get is usually works really well with the system that we use, is make-up air that recycles back through and it goes through again. So it's like double filtration type stuff. We're asking on the mitigation plans the powers of operation are pretty scheduled. I think we've already picked that unless someone has any questions on that. Yeah, there was just a question last time about when we've always been coming and checking and that's why we put it in here just to make it very clear to the board without any fuel. We spent discussion on any additional questions. I have two other questions for Mr. Ubin. So you would have been prepared to operate at 185 state capacity based on the previous point that I submitted. I would have been, because I was completely restricted by the codes of the building, I wasn't happy with it and I was actually in the process of talking to the architects about pushing everything back to increase to front because the point of it is what I was looking at by doing that I'm losing 500 seats a week during just the peak time that they were to fill up during the front house, right? And now we lose 500 seats based on an average of $20 person turned out to be $10,000 a week and that's a really, really big bite. And then when they came back to me because I was really just mowing it over with them and stuff and talking, I'm like, it's got to be some way and they're like, no. And then I was like, Mike came back and talked to the architect and then she called me to do a great news which is he gave me the wrong specs and he looked at it and he said yes on this and I'm like, oh, I'm more appealing to that. So 200 seats makes a big difference on the bottom line because they're all on the front of the house and when I took them off, when they took off to bite out the back, I don't look that I most parties that you book on a small base there's not much more you can get than 50 people on average of the years I've been doing it the biggest party I've ever had would be a pub crawl and I don't see that happening here that's in the city of Boston most parties functions I get is about 50 to 60 people average 30 people I don't get much more than that I wouldn't see unless it's a big hoo-ha and I doubt they're going to come book it with me because I don't need a space for 200 people so the average party is no more than 50 people so I was willing to take off the back but I wanted to leave the optional just in case I get a party of 65 because you never know most I get 50 will show up but you might get to 65 and the front is what I really wanted more function on to do that then that's where the seats every day that you're losing the front's the bread and butter this is yes and then my other question was with respect to the operation of the function room and our earlier discussion about pushing the parking capacity could you operate your restaurant without having any function room activity on Saturdays before 6 p.m. I only missed my eyes because I look at it also it's part of the community you have baby showers you have bridal showers you have functions from birthdays to just anniversaries and among the baby showers and bridal showers I'm not going to be after 6 p.m. and that and Saturday would be hopefully we'd have quite a few though baby showers or bridal showers we'd have like a luncheon maybe at 1 o'clock or something like that and have that I can't say that I think it would be a strain to that and I think it would be it wouldn't benefit me at all and also I think it would hurt me if I have some sort of cause on my hand but it would be a pain to have to 6 o'clock and it would be a baby out there or be pregnant and bump into a place at 6, 7 o'clock or 9 o'clock I'm sure it will but I'm pretty close to it I mean that's usually what happens on a Saturday afternoon and that doesn't have to probably say usually we're going to book anything else inside that we had talked last time I think Bruce brought it up about the lead energy efficiency checklist that we usually have you fill out for special permits and you talked about all the things that you were going to do are we ready to fill that out or well first of all we have to get the ok on everything so then we can say this is what we're putting in there and then I'll fill it out it's just I don't know what to put in where am I going with this well because I'm already spending thousands of dollars already sitting there waiting doing all these other plans and then the next step is to spend more money but I gotta get the ok I mean I spent quite a bit of money but I can't spend any more money because if everything gets changed then it's still good to me so I don't know what I have but there will be of energy efficiency as much as possible the design schools who are all about that the colleges and stuff the restaurants in there so he's going to sit on the board with that so how do we handle that at this point in a special permit it's not addressed I'll give you my personal guarantee it will be that but I'll fill it out at the words whatever you need it's just I don't even know it's not a requirement I'll be sure we'll continue to encourage you you've come to well as he said last night the more energy efficient he is the better it ought to be bottom line exactly I strongly encourage that I'll cost a few dollars more now it pays for itself over years last forever ten years at that point the only other question I had was we talked a little bit about figuring out where all the parking signage was did that go any further I know Carol said more parking signage was going to go in and there was a plan maybe as to where that was going and it's funny because I drove around looking for your parking sign I've only seen one parking sign really well I haven't seen really anything I drove around looking for that purpose and I was like that's why I'm wondering if they need to have more parking I mean you really seriously need to have some signs up there's none I drove around I was like I saw one and there's not even a sign no it's a big P to go up there and you're willing to work with that you put that in your mitigation plan okay that's it there may be no need once these are up it's really hard to tell right now whether there will be additional need once these signs go in do you have any timing? maybe this is a separate from this conversation as soon as TPW can do it okay but I mean it's on the list it's on the list it's on the list that's more of a question I don't have anything extra okay for now so that's it for the app can you further the discussion otherwise my thought is to bring ourselves through the different elements of the EPR and have a step in around each of the points and see where everyone's head is at and see if we're not voting on each or whatever else we'll vote as a whole but the thought is that we can kind of have any questions or whatever else we can put up so I'm going through Carol's memo of July 24 in the different sections of this paper section 10.1181 uses a question listed in the table of use regulations the use for us for an over 2,000 square feet is allowed by special permit and is in fact already covered by the special permit just not enough and it's permitted so far there are so many of these could folks pipe up if they want to discuss a lot of the way if that's okay 1182 the requested use is essential or desirable to the public and the application that the use as a restaurant is desirable to be occupied by the vacant business space and to serve a menu not otherwise offered so that I guess my comment on that is I do think a function room would be helpful to the center and I do think that the restaurant is desirable well I concur and we did hear from some members of the audience speaking in favor of the idea of a neighborhood community type hub atmosphere which I could see working very well in Arlington certain concerns about how we manage the noise in the parking and the traffic mitigation but I think what I've heard from the applicant is the intent is not to create a noisy bar in the middle of town but to really provide a place where people can gather together informally and have some food and drink a couple beers I think that's kind of a good thing I agree with Bruce and we also had a number of emailed supporting comments that came in after the last round of public comments so there do seem to be a number of people out there that are very excited that this is coming and I think it's a use we don't have I think the gentleman from the region theater summed it up nicely that would give his patrons somewhere to go afterwards also and it would be welcomed in his eyes and I totally agree with him that night and I still do Yeah, I agree with the line I think it fills in the town it fills in the building it's been empty sometimes and that function space is something that doesn't exist and I get a great to have it in exactly I agree, I think it's definitely a use and it would be a good kind of generator of business and tax revenue and it's the right place to have it, they are a good group I believe that will make good on the mitigations and neighborhood good neighbor policies that they they've stated that they would do Carol do you want to add? No, I'm going to add I wasn't sure but one thing I've been thinking about and the board's opinion on this I think we've heard both as well as Mr. again mentioned that they'd be okay with the condition with respect to the function room and I understand the enforceability so let's discuss that but I wonder whether was that I thought you had said that that as far as using the function room as a function room and not opening it up as part of the day-to-day restaurant and not like actually making a condition that that would be a business room using that as day-to-day seating and I understand that there's one thing I'd like the board to consider because I actually think the function room is an interesting use in the center is if we said something to the effect of a condition that the we define the space in the back be used for special functions and to the extent it is desired that such space be used as part of the day-to-day restaurant then such use must be made through opening a special permit or something to that effect so that anyone who did want to make it into a true 200 or 196 seat restaurant would have to come back to us and discuss that once again I think Bruce you brought it up before there's enforceability issues I don't know I think that's implied by the nature of a special permit if the function room is already available for functions and special events and it's not part of the day-to-day restaurant operation whether you said you had to open up the special permit or not I think I would want to say not day-to-day restaurant in other words I think we almost need to use the phrase day-to-day restaurant within whatever it is so that someone doesn't all of a sudden start chipping away at the notion of special function and event I agree it should be crystal clear to somebody who may come next that they can't come back and try to litigate that I'm concerned about but I mean here's what I did if you want to rework Bruce you're the best with that so anyway that was just kind of like what I was dropping down over here but what my thought is is that especially with respect to 1182 essential or desirable to the public convenience I think all of us have talked about favorably with respect to an area for business meetings and the like right in the center I think would be helpful so I'd kind of like to see that within the special permit itself obviously coming up with this issue with so many things that we do the possibility is always going to be a little bit tricky but at least are at least what the expectation is out there yeah I agree okay okay 101183 the the request of use will not create under traffic with respect to traffic with respect to traffic I think we have a seat pedestrian use so I think we can talk about parking in respect to this this element but we could also talk about it in terms of BVL4 what that probably makes a little bit more sense so any comments on traffic and I'm sorry traffic and pedestrian safety can the mitigations be included as a condition I'd like to think they will be the form in which those happen I think we just need to think about it I mean we haven't had a condition that includes an element but it would be convenient it's kind of nicely it is spelled out it is spelled out we may just take you up on that but yeah Andy I think that is key is with respect to well when we get to a EDR4 I think that a parking mitigation memo is going to be very important moving on to 11 Jen? Yeah sorry Well Carol has mentioned in here Broadway Plaza being designed for pedestrian use this goes back to I know the Board of Swetmen is ruling on the license they need the Outdoor Seating Do we want to say anything about that in our special permit the circulation pedestrian circulate or we could cover it under EDR4 circulation but I feel very strongly the pedestrian circulation in that Plaza needs to be designed well I think it has to be by law by doing codes and anything anyway you can do it without having the actual space that always in general that's the reason why we get a change of plan on the inside, on the outside I'm not so much concerned about the space between the building and the seating or whether the seating is up against the building I'm more concerned about the impact you're having to the rest of the Plaza as it is today I know the Plaza could get redesigned hopefully it will one day but that would be my concern I don't know if we would write something that pedestrian circulation within the Plaza cannot be negatively impacted with the it is a loose term we have a loose plan right now I think it's also within the purview of the selection because it is outdoor seating it was suggested at a prior meeting that it was something that we should have to give some consideration to and looking back at what the Board did in the past when we had the zoning bylaw allowed for the outdoor seating yes we sponsored it because it was a zoning bylaw but I don't think it's ever really become part of what this Board does in looking at special permits for dining establishments other than taking into account that the outdoor seating does not count towards the parking count requirement so my own view is I think that is the selection issue to deal with is the Town Council's view as well it was okay yes but it may be worth a comment if we can always comment to the Board's selection that they should be aware of concerns and also the design and dimensions of the outdoor seating area particularly where the existing hardscape at Broadway Plaza may constrain where those seats go because there's hardscape and softscape there's a tree, there's a light but having walked back and forth through Broadway Plaza a couple of times since their last meeting I was puzzled as to how you were going to fit the seats because you get the drone tree next door and they put those out so then it's really I'm thinking I might not even do it until someone can change the front of the whole Plaza but maybe you just do a few rather than the whole area so yeah I think it's a comment to the Board a Selectment would be very good they're waiting for our written comments to make their decisions once I get it in I get more of a feel of what's going to happen how would you summarize that I think what I was hearing were to provide the Selectment with the opinion and I think we can go on on that but the concern is the development Board with the outdoor seating and the pedestrian safety and circulation in Broadway Plaza we can address bike racks the same way as possible is that a Board of Selectment issue also because it's in the public realm I think it's certainly worth putting into our level two or into number two on that especially if it's on the GIS that there is a bike rack in front I guess my question would be where is it sometimes they're moved for plowing I don't know and I know they may want to consider you might have gotten put back somewhere else correct I'm just saying number of possibilities actually there's some kind of newspaper stand things out but this bike rack is not that right I want to look where it's at it's not that maybe that's what they mean I'm not sure if you can up here that should probably come under under EDR four over-seating and pedestrian safety and circulation 10.1184 the requested use will not overload any public water drainage or sewer I think the water and sewer system I think is sufficient in that preservation of landscape landscape should be preserved in its natural state we're talking about existing building and existing landscape at this point and working with the community to make improvements but that's also you know public space it is we can encourage that and we can put a statement to encourage that in the special permit I don't know if we're making an encouraging statement such as not about any contact with a few people we can't make a encouraging statement I don't think we want to make a encouraging statement can we make that encouraging statement to the fourth segment or is that something they're going to be looking at not really okay okay any special regulations for the use set forth in Article 11 of the film EDR 1 preservation of landscape landscape is in its natural state sorry I already did that EDR 2 relation of the building to the environment the facade will be rebuilt with our proper windows so any comments on proposed development shall be related harmoniously to the train and to the use scale and architecture of the existing buildings in the vicinity that have functional or visible relationship to the proposed buildings the Arlington Redevelopment Board may require modification and massing so as to reduce the effect of shadow well we we get to look at facade or storefront drawings as part of the special permit yeah that's these ones is that yeah the only difference was oh no this one does have to download the one that we had gotten earlier had to upload and the background of the sign might be wood or it might be painted stuff it is going to be painted for sure yeah it's not going to be so I do think we've had it okay we did talk about that in less time I think so I'm fine with the plan any other comments okay okay EDR 3 open space all open space shall be designed as to add the visual amenities obviously open space is pretty much the public realm outside the restaurant yeah there is no open space right now exactly so that's right there's those two parking spaces but a park let the dumpster okay EDR 4 circulation with respect to vehicular pedestrian bicycle circulation including entrances ramps walkways drives and parking special attention shall be given to location number of access points to public streets especially in relation to existing traffic controls and mass transit facilities with interior drives and access points general interior circulation separation pedestrian vehicular traffic access to community facilities and arrangement of vehicle parking and bicycle parking areas including bicycle parking spaces required by EDR 3 that are safe and convenient and it so far is practical to not to track the use of public parking in a driver post buildings and structures and the neighboring properties so with the additional seating that is proposed in the application there is now a requirement of 29 additional parking spots which in accordance with the bylaw public publicly available parking 10,000 feet may be included in that parking comments views it's close I think that there's probably sufficient parking from the information that we've been provided with there's enough information that's been provided to the board for us to conclude that there is available parking capacity in Russell Common and the railroad and the other public streets at least for most of the times that the restaurant would be in operation I'm encouraged by the fact that the applicant has seen a parking mitigation plan I would advise that we make that a special condition of the permit that the parking mitigation plan be implemented I'm encouraged by the fact that the applicant is found to additional off-street parking spaces and I would recommend that the board include in the permit that the applicant find replacement private parking in the event that those two parking spaces were at some point in the future lost either at the landlord were to take them back or change the lease or what have you leave it for there and let other people talk I would I want to still encourage in addition to everything Bruce said that arrangements be pursued with playtime Jeremy Java other private owners of parking lots because whatever arrangements you can do with shared parking will only help the overall parking issues in the center communication being opened up because I would look into some parking as well for the older people who just want to use it and I can have it a lot nearby I would love that if I'm looking right now and putting those out we could put it out there for people to come back to us about it would we have a mechanism to keep encouraging that or keep showing that Carol and I call see if there's time because that's a very important element of this and I was very encouraged that that was stated in the parking analysis that you do because any kind of shared parking use like that and it's unfortunate other business owners aren't doing the same thing but they haven't been forced to yet they haven't been asked to if you're going to call me back I'm on top of this I've actually texted a couple times and I guess it's not quite so I've texted a lot of the savvy and getting back to the people and you've called me up to use this and I'll be pursuing it and if there's any other ones out there that you can identify I put up cards already and we should see what happens and no one's gotten back to me so I don't know if they're just the numbers right now or what it's hard to say I agree with what Bruce said that in general there seems to be parking capacity at most of the times when you want to use the restaurant so we're we're making it our best educated guess on that what we can do I think somewhere we need to state in here that our determination included the railroad avenue railroad avenue railroad lot railroad lot that we included all of the railroad lot so that in the future if somebody else comes down a lot they understand how we arrived at that there's nothing on the left side on the east side that wasn't you carried on it right well that's within a thousand feet so that's a given I think the railroad parking lot was outside part of it was outside of the plasma okay Andrew anything on I would agree with both of you and I'm encouraged by the mitigation plan it's a place as well as some of the incentive programs for folks who do take alternative transportation that's good that's good Andrew I'm good with all of that mitigation gets into special firm in this condition I would add shared parking and good Christine brought up the railroad lot should be in there review of mitigation measures maybe undertaken by the board within a year of the opening of the restaurant what does that mean and then you come back and deal with all the wonderful things you do hopefully you would come in and experience it okay I think that's just a line how they can deal and those agreements a copy of those agreements with the building if you make an agreement it's as much for us to be able to see those how those things are working I understand so we can use you as moral citizens certainly send us a letter and tell us what's going on I'm hoping we can just ask I'm saying you can be okay if you want to to Carol she can then pass on to us Carol anything before I I think it all sounds good I would only caution that be sure that your special conditions are enforceable or that you word them in a way where the enforcement is compulsory or based on performance performance requirements you just want to put something in there that no one's going to be able to enforce the notion of having some standards or practices that are encouraged is a good one I think it can be included in the findings but I don't know how you could make a condition the permit condition contingent on something that's encouraged how would you fix that what I don't think we can fix the encouraging but I do think that the question is more around the parking it's kind of a new realm right we've got a lot of social media type of parking mitigation tasks and I don't see why that couldn't be included as conditions to this special permit how can you compile that he or someone else who would assume the special permit would carry those maybe it could happen but it's could you could you compel them to could you compel them to keep a sign that says where the parking is I think we can compel them to do something on their building or their property but we can't compel them to do something either how they run their business or having signed a public property that could potentially be held by whoever issues that oh yeah no I wasn't thinking with respect to the public property I'm actually more thinking about the emails and websites it's just an area that the zoning enforcement officer has no say on it no prior experience I don't know if that's something that it'd be easy to monitor though so let's talk it'd be easier than going out there you can just go to the website and pretend you're booking something and see what happens it is but I do think it's important I would it's a good business it should be something you encourage people to do so if they come before you guys for something that they've done against the law we're up to them that's the only way I figure that you guys we're running behind so let's not want to keep moving here so let's talk about the conditions with respect to parking that we've talked about so far first one that I've heard and it's not a condition but I would like the record to show that the railroad lot was included in the total for the board's analysis that's the first thing second thing I heard is an actual condition two on-site spaces shall be maintained I guess I was thinking or otherwise obtained or to the extent not available to be replaced by two other I guess we can say privately property on-site spaces shall be maintained or to the extent get that to be moved they're under they're under thank you okay that's the second one so then I go into the customer parking I love this stuff I'm just trying to figure out how we make it a condition can I back up just a little bit go back to the fundamental the 200 seat is the board accepting that that's the going to be at 100 capacity 196 sorry that's a great point in respect to this we're talking about 196 I thought I said that at the beginning 196 total for the 196 for the business and it's going to be set forth as right here two seconds ago of course that's going to be 106 in the front of the house and 90 in the function and may I suggest that you simply add that subject to review for building components because we don't know what we assume that would mean we don't want to have to have those come back if it doesn't and so that's actually going to be a 700 as changed tonight right so it's this a 700 is that what plan sheet a 700 plan sheet a 700 with the only change being that 96 96 sorry the 94 in the back but where on this plan does it say what 94 it says 106 up front I don't know my reading glasses but I can barely make it out 96 and it says 94 in the back but we're changing that to 90 can I get a full size of this for the file like we'll do the PDF I can print it out the biggest my friend will go is okay so so the one I'm looking at is a 700 and that's going to be with the following changes the issue date issued a 19 2013 yep thanks okay I have so that's 106 in the front of the house 90 in the rear of the house only change this plan being is deleting 94 and replacing it with 90 right near the back of the diagram as well as in the little box little box says 94 seats in private dining that should be changed to 90 and then the total indoor seating someone's got to look at this in two years and be able to read this they're going to redo it they're not we're doing this with the expectation that the applicants is going to provide us with the corrective copy why don't you make the text larger also like you did on this text so it's readable like just have them make this larger have them make that larger then we can all read it easier and the next people can read it easier all the all the seating counts down in this little chart yep it is easy to miss as what comes back comports to that then I think we can replace this A700 with that I'm not sure where we're headed with this so I'm just he wants a final plan showing the members will agree today so in the future so that it's a clean copy so are they coming back no it's just a clean copy so that we're not dealing with a markup well they're coming back the building permit approval that revised plan will be subject to the building permit which it is I don't know that well I guess we do put that in we have some standard we do for standard conditions part one through seven standard conditions right I'm pretty sure that we can actually look at the old special permit because I think that has all seven specifications approved by the ARB shall be the final plans of specifications submitted to the building inspector of the town of Arlington in connection with the applications of the building permits for the project there shall be no deviation from the approved plan without an express written approval of the ARB that's what we're talking about yes we'll get to those final plans hopefully tomorrow I think we all understand what the final plan is well we are going to approve this one it has to be exactly like this three changes three changes 90s, 90s, 196 so we're going to use all of these okay so standard conditions except six is in standard for municipal trash protection there is no municipal trash protection so we could just reference the by-laws for noise and all of that stuff okay, factor conditions right now I've got the two on-site spaces I've got the standard conditions with respect to building inspector etc the shared parking are we still on the mitigation plan? yeah, I mean once again I don't think you can put any encouragement into the special permit what are we going to do with the parking mitigation? so the parking mitigation plan I'm up for what I'm trying to say is that they will they will endeavor to abide by the or to implement the mitigation measures as listed and attached to the special permit and I would add to those the shared parking that you re-type it and add the shared parking so that all the mitigations are in one spot or do you want to leave shared parking you mean shared parking is in the jama jama? yeah, for the playtime that should be in mitigations that should be a second it's a private arrangement let's stick with the mitigations for a second you want to attach them to this special permit I would love to attach it and say customer parking 1-7 I have to make it a condition, right, to attach it yeah, I think so but the question is can we attach social media stuff that would be nice to attach well, what we can do is we can make it a special condition I'm sorry the parking analysis is what we used in our decision what we're trying to do now is set up what they're supposed to do what we're providing them with this special permit the parking so the private sharing we have no plan in front of us with respect to that so I don't think we can either you can approve or disapprove the application because they haven't done that but I don't think that what we're doing here is within the special permit itself encouraging that they go out and do that either we're going to approve the application or we're going to wait until they do that or we're going to wait until they go out and find that private sharing if that's what the board so decides do you know do you see what I'm saying? do you understand that? we're not saying we're saying that the enhancements are we want them to do these things and we're saying that yeah, these things we have to do and we have to do the share parking and they don't have to but we're strongly encouraging you can put that in as a condition that we they're encouraged to provide share parking arrangements I don't think we can do the encouraged we can say you have to get share parking if that's the requirement of this board you know and the ruler will not well it's out of their hands with the the mitigations then it's all part of a package no, because we're saying that they have to do these mitigations and these are within their purview to do no, I get it you can't make the arrangement the mechanics of this are typically the special permit is issued, it's recorded then the applicant goes with their building permit and the special permit and brings that to the inspectional services so that the building inspector can then see what's required and that's where it gets enforced and that's where you have to leverage to implement some of these things before a certificate of occupancy is issued once the certificate of occupancy is issued then that's where the enforcement you want to have some mechanism it's possible earlier said that they would ask the applicant possibly to return in a year to say how the mitigation measures are working but you don't have a compulsory I'm trying to put something in there like that so that they have to come back and report on the success of a couple of ways you can do it which one is rather extreme in this instance and that is a performance escrow or something you could do it it's not out of realm of past practice you could potentially link it to your review of next year's outdoor seating application for the first selection possible but they would first have to return and inform you of how that's working the thing is once the real difficulty is if you determine that it's not working oh well you can't revoke the special permit they're at an operating restaurant there's really no latitude so it's more a check-in but you just need to understand and be able to communicate in the condition to the enforcement officer what your expectations are if you don't expect that action can be taken in the event that the implementation steps aren't working or weren't implemented then you want to communicate that if you do you make it clear somehow that's something that would allow enforcement we have to be an escrow that the problem we have on mitigation is simply enforcement I feel strongly enough that we should do something but I think that we can make it a special conditioning of the permit that we require the parking communication plan to be implemented I understand getting our building inspector to look at the menu and say there's really a little app on there that I can put on my phone and find the parking as it would be unusual but still I think that the parking would be useful I think that's a good thing enforcement by his ticket writing I thought so specifically though I think what he could check on as I'm telling you through the different points here are one through four on the customer parking as I look at it drop down tab on website directing customers that is reviewable all emails will feature a where to park below the signature line that obviously is easy enough common ground brochures pamphlets take out website printable menus will feature where to park section great for all functions event room will also include the where to park section and the website address parking down trap I'm sorry one through five one through four the proposed menu board will also have a section upon it directing customers with a map I think the tougher ones are six and seven but he can call and see what the response is that's easy to check it's a phone call okay I just think it's a little I just think that one's a little little harder and it also has a little gotcha thing you know it's like a little bit like that say one time oh by the way Park and Russell comment yeah I posted right where they can see and read it but it's necessary with servers and I read it to them it feels like you know customers standing in front of reception frankly I think it's a little unfair I mean forgetting about everything else Christine I don't think that's fine for that it's not realistic and it's not I mean we're pushing it on the first five and then obviously seven we certainly hope that you work cooperatively with your own merchant group that will be hard to get permission so I would say that it's really numbers one through five in the customer parking under the mitigation plan that we would like to attach and include not seven well again it's work cooperatively once again you've got to remember that the building inspector needs to be able to write a ticket on it well can't we attach this whole thing the one through five that is in force but we still attached them all yeah we're going to either attach the whole thing yeah sections one through five, yeah we can do that and that way people will have it and welcome the whole memo in here just reference one through five I actually don't like that because then it shows that we don't care about any of the other things that we're saying what shows we do because we put them in there at least I'd like to say that we consider we certainly want to do all those things right but how will they know what they are well I actually look well maybe it's the way I play but like if I've got one through five that I have to do and those are the only things that I mention that I have to do means I don't have to do any of the others right in other words I'd rather have this be a part of the record that we're deciding on that all these things are great and we want them to do all of them than to point out exactly the ones that they do just take out six if that's the one that's out of here well I think I was also thinking about like the one through three and well I don't know I mean well we're already in time we're talking about the one through three we've already hit on the first one about I don't think any of the other three I don't think any of these three go into the conditions I think we hit the one that we could which is the two onside park number two is an encouragement so the employee uses public transport we're talking about closing hours and we're going to talk about closing hours in another part of the ESP and then one through five is enforceable six and seven are not really enforceable and then we get to the sound of the issue but so my thought was to carve them out and attach them versus putting the whole memo in but I'm amenable to putting the whole memo and referencing these five oh you mean the entire thing oh no just take the just rip out one through five take all the parking medications right and just attach it as one through three and one through seven well no Andy because two and three of your employees meeting in parking and six and seven under customer parking are not really conditions that could be enforced once again if you put it in the special permit it's a paper two plus tiger so the notion would be to pull out one through five within the conditions of the special permit and pull them out as an attachment and say as the condition that the applicant will abide by mitigation and set forth and exhibit it will comply with and this whole thing will just be under discussion you said it'll be no it'll be under special conditions at the end of the decision and then Miranda every document that they hand you for your review is listed at the top of your special permit decision it's all incorporated by reference if you want to turn some of those points into special conditions you can do that but be assured that this will be part of the record it's directly cited at the top of the decision so a special condition will be we require the applicant to comply with the parking mitigation action set forth exhibit A will have numbers one through five under customer parking okay so next so that was EDR 4 right any other it were under five surface water advertising features utility services do we have a usual no but the applicant is told that this would be rubberized lid non metal plastic and located far away from a lot of mine as they can be possibly can be and that the applicant is going to ensure or work together with the other adjacent business owners with regard to hours of what about that all trash generated see what they are that was detailed enough that you had a paragraph about that page three number five you can actually put that in there this one non recyclable refuse this whole thing should be put in and that's the noise okay number it's actually number five six community contact so that neighbors I don't think that's well we can enforce the fact that he'll provide a letter okay so five and six okay okay so under consider neighbors but okay okay so that is EDR seven advertising features the sign is as presented I have this next to this is also used for EDR two relation of the building to the environment as well as EDR seven I would reference the exterior perspective provided on 712 2013 from Connor architecture yeah it's two sheets that's right we got an update to this didn't we yeah I don't know if it has the same date this one you gave us an update I had all these questions but your update answered it yeah that's why I'm giving this one but that doesn't have all the words there was a here it's dated issued issue date this one well no it changed like on this one see the lights were below right and you have your insignia on the middle of the on it okay that is the right one okay so that's the right one 712 your old one had no issue date 8200 8200 exterior elevation okay so that's for that's for EDR two and EDR seven seven you're going to reference this and the illustration the illustration yeah so that's just the big black one oh yeah so that's part of it that's the same issue the exterior perspective you could yeah I know but let me take this one but just in your naming this is exterior elevation this is exterior perspective same date okay any comments on the advertising the only thing that this is a belt and suspenders but just to say that lighting will be down lit I know it's shown on the plan but since the individual had it on so you want that as a condition we've done it before that's your condition 8200 that's okay next EDR 8 special features exposed storage areas, exposed machinery insulation service areas, truck loading ends such setback screen plantings or other screening materials actually I think I'd like to talk about the soundproofing maybe in here yeah I think this might be the best place for us to reference voices yeah I guess I guess it is probably better in relation to building the environment so in addition on EDR 2 to 8200 I think we should also be referencing the where's this the 300 EDR I guess we don't have to say what the special condition is in respect of but under EDR 2 the condition sound mitigation and add the sound mitigation items yeah can we enforce any of those stuff I was just looking at I think we've already added one of them with the nonmetal lid under EDR 6 okay we're good on that one is the plan basically it's the same I think one is the one that we're gonna talk about I mean I think I think if we're going to write a note to the selectmen I think it would be very good for us to include two through four as the basis on which we have made our decision you don't want to put those in as well well I think we could put four no I'm pretty happy with the exception standard restaurant background that's enforceable there would be no outdoor speakers the building inspector could enforce those yeah okay so under EDR 2 especially we have to follow the sound mitigation can we enforce through details set forth in document A300 okay and then the next one is going to be seven condition no amplified music with the exception copy number four of the sound mitigation as a condition okay the first thing I was wondering maybe we could put three in as well even you know I really I really feel like we're getting into the my own view and let's let's talk about it but we're really getting into the entertainment license to some extent as to what's what and everything else right yeah once again I'm happy to include in our comment board of select men that played an important part in our thinking okay as long as it gets to them because it was part of our decision right they promised to characterize what this function room would be restaurant as an aside I plan as part of my submission to them to give them this mitigation okay keep going so that brings us to EEDR eight nine safety person safety all open and closed wait were there any other special features there's nothing else being added to the ventilation system on EDR ventilation on eight we did talk a little bit about the ventilation system by the kitchen filter you can say it's approved as presented and loading loading load loading I don't know Carol's notes as additional details on ventilation system and loading load loading truck stood down the back oh you are talking about that kind of loading right and in the last hearing last meeting said that he would not have delivered trucks coming in but that's you know is that written somewhere into the drive but should we write that down you can make a special condition saying that all deliveries shall be by the driveway off the way all the way back truck all delivery will be off-street off-street off-street off-street off-street at reasonable hours or the bylaw hours yeah I don't think we have to say when the bylaw says it's going to be right just to reference the bylaw should we reference the bylaw because it's just like the trash pickup if it happens in the middle of the night nobody will be heard true but that could happen and it would be noisy continuing on since heritage, removal of disruption however little or no this remains of any original report can find the standard is met any comments go to the micro climate no instructions no hard service ground coverage no machinery any questions or comments on that this is where a karaoke machine was noted maybe this is where sound should be it mentions noise here but you put under number 2 should maybe be put under number 11 okay EDR 11 EDR 11 special condition to follow the sound mitigation okay alright 12 sustainable building and site design products are encouraged they've not presented anything they could say at the building building permit is issued we will issue a list to the building department just so we know for the record the leads the measures taken are checklist I'm already doing it so everything it's nice to keep track of what's green about it just kind of saying it's regressed like I said I'm already doing it so nobody feels it's making you happy it's easy to fill it's easy to fill submitted to the building okay 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 EDR 11 Has a type Tera ready or not putting any that paragraph no I think that's not what goes into the special permit this is just Carol's it kind of kind of what we should consider and that type of thing the notion is is that right now I got 11 special conditions those kind of all as a whole go to this particular one yeah, okay and then 1187 there are requests of useful money by its addition where it caused an excess of particular use that could determine the character of said people in cafes and restaurants who are common to massage. But there's nothing exactly like a brown in the Middle East for a synodate. So there is a foundation that's different from the group other restaurant uses prevails. Correct? Yes, yeah, that's a thing of excess. You have my big special condition now. Oh, did you take it from me? Because the last one was the last special condition is the one that I wrote up in respect of the function room. Do you have something on the room? That the function room would be used for special function events only, but not as part of day-to-day restaurant use without reopening the special permit. Perfect. OK, so that's OK. So actually, I think that number one. That's number one. Carol, I don't know where you would. I've got it under my special conditions, and it's not. But the railroad lot included in total for the board's analysis. I don't know where we might be able to put that in as a notation. Into the findings? Into the findings. OK, great. So let's just make sure that we work that into it. I mean, no. OK, great. So then the special conditions that I have with respect to this are number one, the one that was just back with respect to the function room. Two, two on-site spaces shall be maintained. To the extent such spaces are not available to the applicant, two private spaces shall be maintained here under. We require number three, we require the applicant to comply with the parking mitigation action set forth in exhibit A. With exhibit A, having numbers one through five under the customer parking mitigation plan, OK? Three, oh, sorry, I apologize. Four, non-metal lid on dumpster as far as possible from the lot line. And then we're going to steal. Sorry, I'm just going to it. Number five, from the sound mitigation plan. This one already says in the dumpster plastic cover. OK, great. So we don't need the first part. In the rear of the building, it's firing the property. So we're going to just crib number five. And number six, hopefully we may have to do something. No, I think number six. So numbers five and six are now a special condition. Number four, A and B. And Carol, I'll get this to Carol. OK. The fifth condition, a condition that the sign as shown on A200 be downlit. Signed as per A200, all lighting down, all lighting down like this, all. Yeah. Lighting shall all be down light. Whatever the right. There's no sound right. There's nothing around. No, no. Down lighting only. Down lighting only. Thank you. Takes a bottom line. Signed shall be as per drawing. Day 200. Day 200. With down lighting only. Down lighting only, thank you. As shown on A200, down lighting only. Yeah. We don't have to run it this way. OK. We've got a lot to do. OK. Number six, under EDR 11, a special condition to follow the sound mitigation details set forth in document A300. So that's the sound proofing. Right. OK. That's special. And which ones are these? Oh, just the document. You don't want to have any of this. OK, that was in the separate one. We did that already. Yeah, OK. You didn't get item number four. Oh, so that's number seven. OK, so we got the document. Then condition number seven. We're going to copy number four of the sound mitigation. That's going to be condition number seven. Four of sound mitigation. OK. Right. Edition eight, ventilation to be done as presented in the plan. Number nine, well, does it talk about deliveries in the rear? No, it doesn't. So number nine is all deliveries to be done off-street at times in accordance with the bylaw. And number 10, provide a lead checklist at time of issuance of building permit. Lead checklist to the planning department. To the planning department. That's two. Submit a. Submit lead checklist to planning department. Assurance of building permit. OK. Those are the 10. There's one more. Which is? Well, I don't know if this is one of them, but Andy's suggestion of a yearly review on the parking mitigation. What is that for me? Put that somewhere right. Is that under finding? Is that? Well, in a year, he was going to come back and tell us, give us an update, a letter? He's going to give us a letter. Do we write that somewhere? We didn't write that down anywhere. It would have to go in there. See, the special permit goes with the land. And so it's going to be things that not only he can do, but the next person can do. Is that under findings then? You can say it in the decision. We did that in the number of procedures. Yeah, the expectations. Well, CVS, though, we also had an escrow. I remember they were done. See, we asked them to have an education. So we asked them to record on that. Right. And then we gave them back the escrow, only. No, sorry, we didn't. We kept the escrow and just used it for other things, right? That thing. Don't say it that way. Let's do that. That's not what we did at all. We called you our chairman, so we can explain. Let's not get into what we did at CVS. But we used it all up. But the point is, there was something that needed to be done. There was then something relevant mitigation or thing that would then happen. Here, we don't have that unless we chose to do so, which would not be in favor of any kind of escrow in respect to the market. But the fact is, I'm not sure that I think working it into the decision that this was part of the process is a good thing. But I'm not terribly sure it works as a condition into the special process. So some more, we need to work it in. It was part of the process, and we're expecting that to happen. Yeah. That's right. That's my opinion, but it doesn't rise to the level of being a special condition. OK. So where do we work that in? Just so we don't forget it. Well, the decision will come. We can work it in somewhere. The parking implementation plan? No. The idea that they would report in a specific period of time on the progress of their mitigation. You can get into the findings as well. You can't enforce it, but it's an open approach to finding. One other thing that we talked about, I don't know if it's a special condition, a submission of an updated seating plan, right? Yeah, that follows exactly. That follows, right, but it shows the correct number of seats and the front of the house, the back of the house. We mentioned that somewhere, didn't we? Well, I don't know if it is in a special condition, or I mean, it is in the sense that, because we're giving the budget, but if we vote in favor of granting a special permit, they've got the applicant has the permit, right? Is that a standard special condition for our voting? No, we just have an update of it. So let's just do final plans and specifications. We could put it into this, can't we? By the actual final plans submitted to the voting inspector, can we add it into this? Yeah. Tell us the number of seats. Because that is complicated. Huge of correctness. It's unusual, too. See, personally, I think we're voting on it all marked up. Bruce? Yeah. And if we're able to switch it out, a clean one, then that would be nice. That would be nice. But I think we're actually voting on it. No, no, no, that's OK. But I think we're actually voting on it, it's marked up, exactly. But as an administrative matter. Yeah, just so in the future we'll be able to read it. Exactly. As an administrative matter, I think we're going to look for a clean one. But we can use the standard. Yeah, yeah, I think. And then all of the additional, all of the additional, unusual, special permissions. OK, we can put it. So that's, I think, everything? I think so. If we can just take a quick look at the original special permit because as long as we have, for statement, this height of open. And we've talked about item six from that, not really being applicable anymore. The petitioner uses municipal trash, but they've got bullet trash, et cetera. We referenced this one, which covers all of that, pretty much. In accordance with noise abatement, or rather, Article 12, Section 18 of the town bylaws. This is Title 5 Article 12, noise abatement. Is that the same section? Yeah, I don't, you know, I can't remember what that refers to in the town bylaw. These will be the same trash pickup campaign. They will be instructed to keep it. Times are allowed to use heavy equipment, which can be term stirred, emptying trucks, fall under. OK. It's very specific, and it falls within that definition of heavy equipment. OK. So it's not in here. It's not in here. Is there anything else that, I mean, are all of those other conditions, I guess all of those other conditions over the original special permit? They're still relevant. Yeah, I think so. I think all the additional ones that are in the original come in. Thank you, sir. The original special permit. Step number three, final specifications for signs. Or I guess, yeah, that should come before us, right, the final, or do we just see the final? You just solve it. I think we just solve it. So maybe we don't need number three. It doesn't hurt that there's a special permit. It's redundant, but. Well, let's just go through them quick. OK, one stays, one stays, two stays. I think three does go away if we approve it. Four, so should we approve it? Yep, four. Final plans, especially we had to approve other elements, shall be the final plans, five stays in, and six does not stay in, correct? Yeah. OK, so we've got one, two, four, and five come in to be as additional. OK. OK. So those are the special conditions that we've got to look tonight. Any comment, questions? Do you want me to watch it? Yeah. I'll move that we grant the applicant the special permit as requested, subject to the 14 special conditions that the chair has articulated. Yep, a second. And all in favor? Aye. Aye. OK, let me take down Ms. Charlson here. First one, Christine. OK. OK, thank you. See you. Let me take one minute break here just to see if I can see who's still here. Thank you guys for being with us. Good luck. I was going to ask you if you have a special condition Bob, are you going to be showing ESL games on the television? Yes, I'm going to be showing it, but I guarantee all of you are going to be on screen during the day. We have tonight's game, so let me see what happens. Thank you for having us. And I hope you're going to look into that draw that's friendly. I do it Sundays, and I'm also totally ready on Sundays to bring people, bring the dogs, they can sit back and they can have a patio. But you can do it inside. I'm not going to be doing it. I'm not going to be doing it. Exactly. I hope they do. OK. OK. You're not going to be doing it. OK. Thank you. Hold on, baby. Sorry, I'm going to be touching the chair. That would be great if you could. That's going to be spent a lot. That's great. That's what we want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. So, we'll need to, yeah, we'll need to get this written and signed, so if you guys can get this two years out, you're not, you're going out to play. I'll leave tomorrow morning for the next month. Yeah, that's what we're going to do. No, that's the dream plan. A week in a fed. So, I'm back on Wednesday the 28th. OK, great. We might need you almost, right? OK. Well, my laptop's going with me, so yeah. I'll be out on a Monday, if that's my side. OK. So, my dad said they wanted to meet me. Andrew, you were running out of time. I'm here. OK, great. Andy, just do you've got your usual travel as far as getting it signed? I'm around. OK, so, you'll get something. I'm here except for Wednesdays. OK, perfect. OK. OK. OK, wait, wait, wait, wait. Not my girl. You're going to lie. You're, yeah. OK. OK. So, the guys were going so late, so they just seem like a, just seem like a great part. Carol, do you want to introduce me? Am I doing the best thing? Yeah, I'm just, I wanted to make sure I put the note to file the decision before I get it in the calendar. So, we don't. Hi. How you doing? Good. OK. Our next agenda item is to talk about SIMS affordable housing, condo documents and an introduction to attorney Edith Netter. So I'm going to let Carol just do a quick intro. I'll do it this way. The condo documents for Arlington 360 were provided by Goldstone Stores. Edith Netter has been on retainer for the town more or less for reviewing affordable housing components, as she has done for Sims. Bruce and Edie met last week together to review what aspects of the condo docks Edie would handle, and most of that would be handled by Bruce. Edie will, however, tell you a little bit about how the affordable housing components are cited and protected, the degree in which they are cited or protected in here, I believe, but also to talk about the regulatory agreement. There's not much to say, but I'll let Edie give you a status report on DHCD's approval. DHCD has to approve them. I'm very tired. Can you tell? We're all going to shorten the hour. So do you want me to just follow up? Yeah, that'd be great. Just by way of introduction, I'm a land use attorney. I do a lot of work with housing issues. I'm also a mediator, not doing mediation here. I have worked with the head of Arlington for at least 10 years, and I've been working on this project since 05 with Laura. So I'm thrilled. I've never met with the ARB in all this time, so I'm delighted. Now, I should also mention to you that on condo docks, I've never met with a board, and I think it's great that you're interested in it, because it's a really important aspect of the implementation of the whole project. We prepare a lot for this meeting, but I'm going to cut to the chase. And if you have questions, and I know Bruce and I talk at length, feel free, obviously, to ask me. But in your, the legal framework for all of this is your special permit decision. It's the land disposition agreement of all its various forms, and it's the inclusionary zoning by law. And so in your special permit, it provides that 15% of the units in the project is rental now, except for the 176 units in total. 12 of those are condominium. But should there be conversion of additional rental units, 15% of those units need to be available to low and modern income households. That's households earning less than 80% need income. And those units count towards what's called the subsidized housing inventory, meaning the 10% standard. Not sure if you're familiar with what you think. Good, I'm getting there. Don't have to go there. And then 5% of the units have to be available to middle income households who earn under 120% median. And you might have heard of the expression workforce housing. That's what that's all about. So with respect to the condominium documents, the two key provisions in your special permit decision. One is the condominium statute provides that the, are you all familiar with the basics of how a condominium is structured? Well, just everybody has a unit, and then they have a percentage interest in the entire condominium. And typically, that percentage interest, that ownership interest, well, it's always based, the statute provides a fair market value. Generally, fair market value is calculated based on, the percentage interest is calculated based on the square footage of the project. So what happens is that the market rate units, let me say this in another way, and I'm not sure. Sorry, what we're requiring is, what you're requiring is that the percentage interest of the affordable units is based on the restricted sales price, not the square footage. Which means that the percentage interest of the low moderate income units is going to be slightly less than a market rate unit of the same size. The reason for that is that the fees that you pay are based on your percentage interest. So if you have 15% of the units, just 15% low mod, you always have a minority interest, or you include the moderate income units at most, it's 20% of the units. And the goal, and what your special permit provides, is how do we increase the role of the voting power of the owners of the low mod and the middle income units. And the way we do that is instead of saying, it's based on your percentage interest, we say one vote per unit. So it equalizes things. Now this is not typically done around the state. However, the condominium statute does not preclude this. There are certain instances where you have to vote based on percentage interest. But otherwise, you can vote one vote per unit. The condominium documents do provide this in a very general way. What they say is that there has to be compliance with the regulatory agreement and the special permit and the LDA. Well, that's a little difficult for a late person who's purchasing a unit to understand. And frankly, even if the condominium is large enough so they've got legal representation, there's not going to be many lawyers who are going to really sit down and figure out, ah, what does all of this mean? And let me figure out what votes we have to do one. So the short story is that my recommendation is that we request ghosting the stores to spell out those votes that have to be by percentage interest, which they've done to a certain extent, and then say all other voting has to be done based on one vote per unit. So I would say that's probably the most important thing I wanted to communicate to you tonight. There are a few other smaller issues that the condominium documents should address because another part of your decision is that we want the units to count towards the subsidized housing inventory. Well, in order to do that, the units have to comply with what's called the local initiative program guidelines, state guidelines done by Department of Housing and Community Development. So there's a few issues that need to be addressed in order to comply with the state requirements and ensuring that the units count. That's my short summary. It's a good summary. Right here. I understand the summary. I can just add that Edie and I have had a couple of conversations already about the documents. And I'm adding a few comments for her to take into consideration. But if the board feels it's appropriate, I would suggest that it would be that we designate Edie or to authorize her to negotiate with the redevelopers attorneys on the revisions that she thinks are appropriate to have and the condominium documents so that those goals that she articulated are achieved. And I think I would add to that that if you're willing, I'd like for you to be the liaison from the board in speaking with Edie on these things. If the rest of the board would agree too, you can be our, if you need a sounding board from the board, I think Bruce is giving his history with the project and it's familiarity with the documents. And this is an overall good guide thing that he'd be the right person for that, not for that. So if you're willing to do it, I think that makes sense. I think I too. Yeah, exactly. Essentially it's continuous. I think that would be hard. Exactly, exactly. The rest of us just pick up the phone. But any other comments or questions on? Carol? I had just a small one. We were discussing some points this morning and we just want to be sure that as we're looking through the condo documents that we need to be sure that we're not, there's nothing in here that would discourage unbundling of parking from the units that's in the LDA. And so we just want to make sure that that's that the condo documents that would add that. As I started to call through those, there is what's called Unit 2 of the larger economy, the primary economy. Unit 2 are the townhouse units, the for sale units. They have an exclusive parking area that belongs to those townhouses. And Unit 1, the large, what I call the flat, so then the other rental townhouses also have designated parking spaces if I recall correctly. And then there's specific parking spaces that are there for public use for people who are driving up to go to the Vista Park, so they can park at the same time. But yeah, that's sort of the level of what you get into when you look at these, just to sort of say, as you and I were talking, just to refresh the memory of the board, there's a cell phone tower. The tower's not the right word. There's a temporary tower there until the buildings were built, but it's going to be then attached to one of the buildings, presumably building 3 or building 4. But that was an area that I were discussing today, just for example, where the condominium documents that's currently drafted don't get very specific about which building it's going to be situated on. So there's a host of issues out there to look at. I was generally looking at the equitable housing issues, and Bruce was looking more broadly. So I think together we'll have a good checklist. That sounds great. I guess let's make it official, maybe, if it might make sense for someone other than Bruce to move, I'll entertain a motion to designate ED as our representative in the negotiations of the condominium documents with Bruce, please, on to the redevelopment board. So seconded. OK, thank you. All in favor? Aye. Great. Thanks, ED. Thank you for waiting around. Thank you for waiting. Thank you for starting my task. You know, the board's changed by four times. Yes. Yeah. That's what it wasn't. Yeah, it's beautiful. All five is alive again, and I went back to look at my old documents. Mike, can I just say a few sentences about what's happening next with the agreements with DHCD in the town? Yeah, please. We had signed agreements, and then when the project stopped and number of units went down, it sort of, we had to do an amendment to that agreement, and it sort of opened up some other issues that we're now trying to close down with DHCD. And I think we're very close to that. So there's going to be an amendment to that agreement that you are going to be a signer, and I would say it will be within the next week. And it's very short. That's an amendment to the regulatory agreement? Is it? Yes. OK. Great. And also, you're in process of getting approval from DHCD under the local initiative program to ensure that the units count. And DHCD is also a signatory to the regulatory agreement. So there's going to be some state involvement. There's a lot, actually. So Bruce will be the board's liaison to communicate with the units? Yes. And to the extent additional negotiation, five hours required, you can step into that, too. Is there anything other than this amendment that's going to come back to the board that we're supposed to be looking at? Well, the board is supposed to approve the kind of document that has to be about, you understand? But there will be something at some point. That's why we want it. That's why we want it to come. OK. And then so that's the other thing. What's the other thing? Sayers have to approve the kind of document. Yes. And what's the schedule for that? Well, it's just a couple of small issues that we're asking them to change. That's how we look at it. It'll take roughly twice as long as you expect. Let's just say something. Did you want to say something? Nope. I mean, other than we look forward to moving through and concluding as quickly as possible, I know you've been very conscientious and so blur about trying to facilitate and, I think, the board understands the challenge that we have with having kind of many things still on the market. And the sales process needs to have these documents going. So while we all want them, these concerns are real and valid and we need to kind of have a balance between the voting rights for affordables and also some of the considerations for the higher and larger condominiums that we're trying to sell. So I think there's going to be a balance of things. I'm sure we'll work through those quickly. But we really do have a joint incentive to work quickly and nimbly through them, and I'm sure we will, because it does affect the marketability and when you're selling something and people ask to see the condominium documents and they're not ready or the more moving pieces there are to the project in general, the more difficult it is just to convert those sales. So we're standing by ready to go, and if there's anything on our side that we need to do to keep people on our side focused, you know, let me know when we look forward to wrapping it up quickly. Great. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for making a round. Thanks for waiting around. Okay, if there's possible. Arlington 360 Update is the next thing on the list. Jay, finally, I apologize to you now. Sorry, I never thought that that would go so long, so I apologize. I never got to a point where I felt like if we stopped, we were never going to start again. So it was one of those that... Closing instinct for the board. Yeah, it was there. It was there for the taking, so no problem. Well, I'm just here to really give a general update. There's a couple items that we want to touch base with. I will ask for approval of a minor change that incorporates some design elements for the Vista Park to incorporate some of the historic elements of the hospital that have been preserved. There's some relief, boss relief plaques that were taken off the original hospital, and we've come up with a design to reincorporate them. We've been trying to find a way to incorporate them into the landscaping, and unfortunately, everything that sort of touched the ground with a concrete slab that sort of looks like a gravestone with a cross on it ends up having the wrong connotations. So we have a design that we've worked with like in the past, I have six copies. I might have to share a couple of these. Bruce, I think... I mean, Bruce, share more than I can, yeah. Are you sure? I'm sure. No, but this is fun. So it's just that this is the upper Vista Park. This is the Hattie Sims Park. This is the updated landscaping plan. What you see to the left, where it's a boulder pile, is that's where the parking elements are, the polling parking. This is the ring road around the front of the project with the town hall opposite. And where's the boulder pile? It's in the lane by the front. That's a path that comes into the park from the parking area. And we have what we're calling a boss relief shield monument, which is basically a brick structure that will have the boss reliefs sort of embedded in the brick. And we will have an historic plate, which we're working with the town historian to create, to help us craft the historic summary of them. And he's also looking for an appropriate photograph in the same design motif as the historic planks that are on the granite post that you've just seen before. And we'll be affixing one of those to probably the lower section below one of the units that faces the park, the pathway. The lower section meaning like the park in this area? Yeah, so we'll probably put it right underneath it. Oh, under here. Just a description. That's where the photo and the description will be. Yeah, underneath it. And are there four of these? Yes, there's four of them. There's a nice symmetry. There's one here. There'll be four on the whole line. What was this before? Was this a granite piece? There was not a granite before. Oh, you didn't know? This isn't taking the place of the name. This is just an added feature. Oh, the other one is over here. Yeah, the identity sign, like the name of the granite slab. And this is what? Four? Sorry. Yeah, this is just four sides. Here's a preview. To display what? These, they're 24 by 30 inch. They're cord country molds. Four. We've seen those. They've been up on the cornice of the hospital originally. They were peeled off and saved during the town historian's driveway. Didn't you see those ones? I remember seeing them. And one of the pieces of the cornice? Yeah, they were up in the corners of the cornice, embedded in the brick of the original hospital. Up under the eve. Yes. It's like medallions, almost. Yeah. But shaped different. And they're just cord countries. They're above the cross. It's not a religious form. It's more like a red cross kind of cross. And it's just, there's some symbolism, but it's more of a historic element. There are very few historic artifacts that were incorporated, that were sort of worthy for reconsideration. And I believe the heritage section of our Special Pride requires that we make a priority and incorporate found historic artifacts in the landscape design. So we've been struggling with this design. And I think this is the simplest and most elegant and doesn't have the wrong connotations or possible connotations. So every time you put it on the ground, Yeah, we tried putting mounds up. And we tried sticking them in the flower beds and sticking them, but it ended up looking like gravestones. What about laying them in a sidewalk paving? Well, they're trip hazards. They're trip hazards. Because there are elevations and things like that. And they could look like toppled over gravestones. Yeah. Why the brick? Is it because the buildings were brick? Yes, yes. Yeah, that's the... The existing buildings were brick? We used the same brick, but we're using a different one. For your buildings, but was the original Sims Hospital brick? It was brick. It was brick also. And what's this top piece going to be? Probably a concrete top, which is similar to the toppings of the planters, that we have in the hardscape, the sign of the courtyards. Jake, is this the only location that I've ever used? You said there were four. There are one on each side. Okay, so there's four of the historic elements, and we're putting them in one reconstruction. Right. And then the top part has the history of the... We will have a shield. Just underneath it, probably on the side that faces the pathway, we'll have a plaque that I will come back and show you, because it's written once the description is written by the town historian, and he's looking for an appropriate story photograph to show what they had looked like, that we'd be doing just underneath the front one. It would be the same design as the member of the grant post with the design that will be sprinkled around the top for 25 years of history. And lie down on the bottom. It might be hard to see down there, rather than up above one of them. We could do that. We would just have to make it taller, and it might look a little empty. I don't think you want it. I don't think you want it. I don't think you want it. You don't want anything on the top. What's on the top of it? The four without the... Maybe you could sit on the top. The prefenster. Yeah. But it was half. Did you have something? I'm sitting in there. You can't really see it. It's beautiful. Yeah. So all of the planters in the courtyards have the same brick. Not the previous one. You may want to consider moving it up. And maybe these could all move down a little bit. So you can feel it on the top. Yeah. Just because it'll be so... I think it should be centered, whether it's on the top or the bottom. You can kind of work with it. Yeah. I think the problem with moving it down, with moving the bass relief down, Christine is that it's only going to be on one side. So the other three sides will look pretty odd with the thing not centered on the whole brick. Yeah. So it's sort of the rustification of having a little bit more space at the base. Can you use that grant that you'd like to grant? Yeah. And then move the plaque up to the top. Just under it. So it's right up underneath. So it's surrounding the brick. Just move the plaque up. So no brick border on top of the top. That whole thing isn't a plaque. That's the concrete mold, actually. The plaque, he was just going to put it... No, I know, but this is a special concrete mold, right? Right. All four of those are... Just move it up to just under there. Under the concrete top of the granite top, which matches the granite of the other posts and things that you have. It just looks a little heavy. Yeah. I think if you take one side off it, it'll just look a little nicer. So where would we put the plaque that's underneath it? Well, I put the plaque on the top, but you can also put it underneath it. On the top laying on the top? Well... It might be hard to read, unless you can bring the whole thing down because you're moving them up. You just don't wear it well. Okay. So they put it just below the plaque. Yeah. Now, if you have to bend down, we'll look at it. Really bend down. Well, it's higher than it was going to be. Yeah. Have you included in the budget half a Santa? Is that the part you'd have to go on there during the holiday period? Yeah, I know. Did I? No, actually. Don't lay your knees. You have to do the legs going head first. You put it right there. It's like the chimney for the big sistine underneath it. Exactly. That's the next thing you're going to come in with is the exhaust pipe in the middle of this. We'll get a Michelangelo on it. It's fan-in-fan. We'll just just bring the top black and then the right movement. Perfect. What about if we center them on the three sides but then on the one face? We do that on the face and the path. Okay. Why not just do it on all the window now? Yeah. We're only going to have one plaque though. Oh, I know. I'm just saying this is one of the area beds. Yep. Just put it right up to the top of the thing. Is it that or is it? How about from the side? How much relief does that thing have so that its trip has a... An inch. An inch so the cap should also... Is the cap going to be flush with the brick? The cap would overhang. A little bit. A little bit overhang then. It's a chunky thing if you can make it thinner at the same time this way. Yeah, it seems so big. It's chunky. It's really... Yeah, okay. You got it. It seems out of scale with even being outside to the sides. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little more relief. I mean an arrow. An arrow. Yeah, and drop the thing up to the top so you're not seeing it surrounded like a window in a big chunky thing that looks like a locker. Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's too bad you couldn't just stick it in that landscape. Yeah. In nice key spots. I know. That usually works so much better. Because it's such a... I understand you're concerned then. Yeah. It's... I mean... It's... Yeah. It's tough. It's just structural issues. It's one of the garage walls, brick walls. They're already built. Yeah. There's no walls around the park. I was going to ask that where it could be incorporated into it. That's nobody had thought but when they get into the design... Or trunks of walls, even. You think this is curving around it. It's not all... Oh, right here. It's curving. And there's a fence in it. And there's a fence in it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, it's been a struggle with contrary, maybe, six different concepts. How thick is it? They're... three inches thick, maybe. So when you set them in to a mortar bed, it can be flush. Yeah. Right. And you've looked at, like, giving them each their own grounding. Like, not in the ground, but on something else. Yeah. They look like gravestones. On a different structure. No matter what you put them on, they look like... Yeah. I mean, they're 35, 24. Yeah. They're in the ground sticking out. Mm-hmm. Light in the ground. Looks like a tomb. Mm-hmm. Even if you put it on something that was very ungravestone-like, like something with color in the base or... It looks like... Something a different shape, like that a normal gravestone base would be. Yeah. We've tried it. We've tried it with stone dust. We've tried it with a planting bed. It's not a planting bed. But, like, raising it on something that is a little bit more unusual. I don't know what. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's a lot of explanation if you did that, though. I mean, it's already a lot of explanation. Plus, if you did that, you'd need a clack first. You'd need four clackers, right? Yeah. Which, yeah, it was really the issue. I know what I'm saying. I mean, it's not gonna be... You could have one clack and have four set. You could have one of them and do it prominently. You've looked at it again. I mean, it just... No matter what, it looks like a gravestone. It looks like some kind of... I mean, if you put four of them on different heights of things in the same landscape area with one clack, something like that. This thing is really... I'm not pleasant looking. At the risk of saying something really radical and no one was in the special program, are we better off without it? Are we... We've been struggling to try to do it, but is it a force? And I hear all the things you're saying. We've been trying for that creative idea, but we also don't want to destroy them, or alter them. And it's just a... You can sculpturally do it. It should be mounted in a wall in the base of a parking group. You know, some wall. Just mount it in there and you just find them. That's what they should be. One of the brick walls somewhere. But the public space, they should be in a public space. Well, that's all public where you're driving around. It's like a taming wall. Oh, man. The massive wall that could be a real wall. Out there. That's two... Well, that was thinking on the top of that wall, but this is a curb and then there's a fence. Up around the... Yeah, it's just... We've talked about that. We've talked about doing that in the stairways. No, later. That was another place, but those are more private. More private. And more managed and less accessible and less seen. And these need to be... This is historic, right? So it needs to be... There's a story behind it. Do you need to have... I guess a tripping hazard is a tripping hazard no matter where it is. You've got these two benches here, two benches here and two benches here, right? You've got these benches. That needs to be clear in between the two benches. Is it that? Yeah, tripping hazard is only in your pathway. Your major pathway. If you brought the benches out just a little bit and you just put them down in the ground, right in between those two benches. In between them laid? No? I can say no. I don't... No, no, no. It goes back to that too. Oh, you think that even looks like a tombstone? It looks like... In between two benches. That's where my dog's buried. It's too bad you don't have an image of Wonder Show. You don't have it in your file. I mean, I love my dog. Actually, you don't want to dig with the sister of his but a former dog. I just don't want to deal with my dog died and I lump him and can we put him in the park? I guess I was thinking if it was in between the benches it would have less... It would have less looking like a... Yeah, no, it wouldn't have looked less that way. It still would be a tripping hazard whether it's technically one or not in a public park you're protected for tripping hazard. It just doesn't look better. It doesn't really accomplish what we're trying to do. It was in an arch, right? Originally? No, they originally were in the corners up above the cornice up in the corners just embedded in the concrete. I mean, in the brick the sides and when they tore down the buildings they chipped them out and really took them off the building. You need to create a thing of a sod and put the mask into it. Yeah, can you make it into a scale model of the old of the old samples hospital and we don't have to be making... With the right samplers? It'll have to be big enough to... You could make a gateway into the park. I'm kind of with Bruce. I think this is forcing an issue because I would say we are all fatigued with this but the town historian thinks this is good and, you know... I had a great deal of respect from the town historian. I will say but the amateur design person in me doesn't find it very appealing. I mean it just to me and I hear what Andy's saying making slender taper but we're still trying to you know, pretty up something that's just inherently not very attractive. Maybe if it wasn't in a brick structure like this But I think I'm going with Bruce I mean it's just if you're going to have it it's just a big block. Right in your garden, curiosity people are going to go, what is it? It wants to be built into some entry posts or something like that. Exactly, like a ballard in the entries. Not just sitting in the middle of it. One could be an H ballard and one of them has an interpretive element or something. Let me try one of the other things. What if you put them just side by side by side without any brick? Is it like little tombstones? No, no. Make the box out of them. I guess it would look a little like a sarcophagus. Well maybe, what about this? What if we... Set it into a concrete color I don't quite care A narrow, thin, concrete color Doesn't that work better? Yeah, what would? Pour it into a concrete color like set one on each side like you said. An obelisk. An obelisk. At least 18 feet out. And that you could put somewhere in the landscape. And if there's four of them set into a different pillar they wouldn't look like a tombstone. Because they wouldn't have the shape like this is in the special permit, right? That's why it's coming back. Isn't there something about special permit? Is it that you have to try to incorporate storage found objects into the landscape? Which usually isn't this hard. No, this is the only thing that was there so we're trying to make it work and at times it has felt like we're trying to specify a quarter peg in a round hole which is a rather large square peg. What's your time frame? Well, we need to order this. We're getting ready for landscaping to be fully mobilized for the park since September so we have to buy this. Could it possibly wait until September 9th agenda for members? Because in the meantime Jake could potentially provide to the board an electronic file, a photograph of the cross or one of them and then the board could further consider whether Mike's idea of putting them between the benches in these four locations is not out of the realm of aesthetic possibility but also still to give a little further consideration to potentially improving the appeal of what you have presented just to try to it would postpone the decision a little more to be honest with you just really honest we don't have capacity or time for any of this green green it's like if you want this let's do it I hate to be so cut and dry but we have too many things to do with too much stuff happening to kind of keep this going just realistically so we want to make the board happy this is a detail that we want to execute well we want it to be something we're all proud of this is we can come back after we're done and say we'll try to do this later but in the construction sequence with installation planting and building foundations and putting floodings in and all that stuff the time to do that is in the sequence with when we're doing everything and unfortunately this has lagged behind we've been struggling with this we've had many different iterations of this and we're here but we need to make a decision and we're happy to incorporate the changes that Andy has said but I can't design something one of these things you get to town historian to agree with which one is the best and execute everything else we have to do can it be delayed? yeah but we're going to build this then afterwards so we're going to put up our big foundation but specifically the castings it's just the irrigation lines are all going to be in you know we're going to have finished plantings that ought to be planted in a certain timeframe from a seasonal perspective and it just we just need to simplify and narrow what we're doing and move forward and unfortunately there's urgency that we have I'm trying to be respectful of what we're acting like we just got to make a call it'd be easier if we had a picture of one of them you kind of picture it into this the boss relief so really September 9th you can't wait for that up and down on Andy's things I guess two things come to mind I truly I must admit I'm ambivalent towards this either way I don't think it necessarily adds anything I mean it's nice that you know maybe it's nice that we wanted to save those things but in the end I'm not sure Billy can we convince the historian to hold off on it well I think but do we have to convince the historian I don't know we can do a one he's been helpful how heartbroken would he be I guess it's a question I hate to lose them but maybe there's a better place for them than this if we had to vote on this I would vote now yeah it's a pretty easy I I'm very sensitive Jake to how much work you put into this and it is I think a little detail and you've been dealing with like major major factors and this is I don't want Jeff over this personally it's not working for me and I think it actually detracts from what I understand that this department looked like so I would say no and I don't my own personal view is I think that we could the project's going to succeed without this fine and it doesn't it doesn't really sing out like it has that great amount of historical relevance to me I'm not going to look at that and go oh yeah that was the piece of the hospital that used to be here so I agree how does the historian feel about the pieces well he thinks it's the one architectural piece from the buildings it's sort of the physical legacy from what was there to what it is now I think he feels really good about the conscientiousness of the historic plaques that we are doing on the site and he's seen a few of the other designs that didn't get this far let me let me ask you one last question on this thing and I'm only bringing it up are they all the same yeah so another idea to kind of make it more elegant would be just to have it two-sided yeah and have it narrow I mean yeah and have it just be a little more elegant and maybe it works you see it from both directions it's perfectly clear they have one on each side and it'll feel more like your other plaques you gotta go redesign it I would eliminate it I don't know I like that suggestion I kind of feel like the historian that it's part of that site and it's the one thing that you have designer to go in and execute it is your landscape architect designs yeah so I mean if the board wants to get on that direction and wants to authorize someone to be able to approve it so we can get this done this way that would be the way to do it and if the board is not happy with it and doesn't feel like a strong sense of the paper we'd be really proud of this and this is accomplishing what we want for this department to be you know I think it's the board what I can say is that we've really worked on this for a long time and tried to you know get to a different scenario so this is sort of the best idea that we've had to make it more elegant that would be accomplished if we did it two-sided and narrow or structure with a thinner cap that might be more elegant although I'm not sure that that might still dominate one of the nice great planet name that we have you know right at the entryway that's what I don't like about it it's enough stuff we have the post and we have the block and this is just randomly placed in there it wouldn't have to be here if you did it two-sided you could put it somewhere else see and I guess that's whatever you could put it in the landscape remind me what your other signs are like what they're mounted on six inch granite post just six inch okay it's very narrow let's think it was wider and there's one that's a rough block down here with a plaque in it they're all kind of natural nice aesthetic and this is just coming out of like you bought it somewhere so where else can these go you have two choices you either assign somebody to work with them to reduce it or keep it for days or we vote to eliminate it and see if the historian can find another place to do it we can find it in terms of the museum you know they look great in this driveway but he has a wall to lift him up again in that particular area so we'll enforce a delay in this thing if you really want to come back I don't think this works I don't think that's worthy of being the first thing to see coming into this department even two-sided you know what I'm saying you got this nice entry wave here that's what I was saying it could be somewhere else somewhere else in the landscape instead of right along the entry in the grass maybe if it were kind of mixed in and it was two-sided it might not be so dominant this is really dominant maybe two-sided between these benches right here or right here in the landscape somewhere there so it literally looks like I was just trying to draw what you're seeing you put it in the ground just tilt it up it looks like a little you want to do that that's who I wanted to do but I could see it in that just by the thing in here somewhere that's the kind of scale you want get it down on the ground like you're saying get it down low don't make a big block out of it even between these benches here it's a trip hazard wow it would look like that as the cross sticks out an inch it looks like a vulture and then which is what you have with gravestones like that is when you have them flat and you have the acid from the rain sort of sits on things and the concrete is very porous so you get expansion and contraction so that's why you don't crack it'll absorb water and freeze and crack either then it'll really look like this some moss will grow on it okay so I should have eliminated I don't think it's adding to the structure I don't think we have to vote because the vote would be to include it not to exclude it because no you can reject it you can reject this concept okay consider it rejected okay okay you know in all honesty in all due respect to the town of scoring especially on this project this park is in the right place it's a nice idea but it just detracts from the park I don't want to I'm not trying to throw him he was working with us trying to come on yeah it's hard to you know oh and this is what happened so this is what we designed and he said that's what I asked for looks okay to me he may be relieved not to use it it might be better to have some of these in the park but you know what we will do is keep an open mind for where we could put these things yeah all of a sudden it comes to us you know do keep an open mind like you know just using not using all four just one maybe in between two benches let's get a friend to build them as the park and we'll see if we can make it work send us the image though this is too nice we can try to help you if he sends us the image we can also have it in the background we're gonna move on as we move forward yeah okay so the direction I have was to give you an update on the forest management plan yeah so as you recall that was an LDA requirement that had been done by July of last year which was a couple months behind that schedule but it's been done for over a year now and we've circulated it to the Land Trust in Hong Kong to make amendments to the plans and there was dissatisfaction with some of the details of the forest management plan and members of Kong Kong have met with an emerging friends group to help truth as you recall it's a collection of people from different backgrounds but including the neighborhood and there seems to be an agreement amongst the other parties as to what actually to modify in the forest management plan so we've been saying to Kong Kong this is the effects the management principles that are down the road that are not necessarily things that we've created in these endowments to help support financially the ongoing transformation and maintenance in the open space there's priorities, there's maintenance standards as you know from the management plan that also draw on those principles and there seems to be a disagreement that I don't necessarily totally understand between members of the Land Trust Kong Kong and the new friends group I think it has more to do with voting and it has control over what decisions and so the amendments there was a little one pager that was modifying the forest management plan just as a coda that has been drafted but not officially endorsed and we've been waiting for Kong Kong to sign off on this and the Land Trust to sign off on it and we keep asking them to do it and there's an ongoing debate and they're not meeting until September so this is one of those things where it doesn't really necessarily affect us directly we want to do the right thing keeping these things done, we have a clear obligation in the LDA to have this completed we've circulated a draft of it you know on one hand we would like to complete it so we aren't thinking about it let's take draft off of this and ask the forest management the person who dropped it who was recommended by these parties to do it, to just give us what you got and if there's some amendments or people want to change it later we'll leave that to the future groups to decide whether part of us that wants to do that and part of us wants to make everybody happy and have them give us whatever changes that are necessary so is it your understanding that the plan is now finished because that's my understanding that it's finished and it's gone or it's on its way to the CONCOM and they will be voting on it at their September 5th meeting that's my understanding however I don't believe that there's a clear consensus as to whether it will be approved or whether it will be approved in the context of the other elements of voting rights I think it comes down to the neighborhood feeling like they want to have a say in the management and there are folks that don't necessarily agree with that so it's really the neighborhood is a general public basically so we want to facilitate that, we want to bring people together we want everybody to have clear definition of the mechanics of how the system can be managed we think that the management plan and the conservation documents really outline how that's going to work and if you read I think there also may be some anxiety because people haven't seen the final landscaping in place and they don't see how the open space is being finalized and they see the shelter portion of the project with the exposed you know, there's just you know, is it done, it doesn't feel done you know, we sign off on it wait, this is our last chance to have a say in changing things if we need it it feels a little bit like that I don't know if it's just anxiety, I don't know if it's psychological but we've been asking and asking and asking and we keep being told by the next ARB meeting we'll have it finalized so this is just one of those things it's not rocket science it's not a big issue it's just kind of getting it closed out it's taking it one time we would like to have this done because it is the piece of CR documents and when we're selling units people are asking for the kind of docs they're asking for all these regulatory documents just to understand what they're buying into they see forest management it's like one of the little detail things that we just don't have but it's not helpful from our perspective to keep it as a well made if there's a new thing but it's coming and you know it's just another challenge so that's the update we're working on okay and you're keeping communication with Carol so that if the board can help in any way or you know I'm happy to step up on that one the only thing I can think of that might help through decision making processes to maybe invite at a particular date someone to ask that they finalize I don't know can we say that our expectation, the board's expectation Christine at this point since you've got your ear closer to the ground there and any of us on this one is that there will be a vote on September 5th which would be tight what is September 5th that's a Thursday and our agenda yeah the problem is our agenda maybe we could make it an agenda item we'll make it an agenda item but you know maybe near the end of the meeting so that way if we have to drop it it'll be at the end that would be good can the board designate someone to accept it to accept the force management plan at that meeting or before that meeting just be empowered to finalize and accept well I think that's not something we do right now I think we would do it at the September 9th meeting let's cross that bridge at the September 9th meeting if we're not in a position on September I mean if you're waiting until September 5th anyway just trying to sell units I know I know you had said the difference is August 22nd and September 9th I guess I would I would think about it but it's not, it's September 5th to September 9th I guess what I'm saying is there a way to accept the force management plan of what's been drafted and then have been away to quickly do whatever amendment people want to do if the front line has a change to it they want to adapt the code because then when something's done we've met our obligations for the LDA we just want everybody to have a decision I should know more than I do on this so what's the interaction between the LDA and the force management plan and who has the okay on the force management plan I guess I'm coming from a lack of knowledge on this that I should have, I realize but I don't the the land trust has a role in it a signature so basically the management plan for the permanent conservation goes to a tribe already agreeing between the condominium association the land trust and the concoct and so but that's while the management plan is signed it doesn't go into effect until the permanent conservation restriction is placed on the property which happens after the project and our challenges is that the shelter is not done and some of their land is incorporated in that so we have to wait for them to be done from a timing perspective so this is kind of I would characterize this and others may not but I would characterize it as an ARV jurisdiction but there's a courtesy because these other groups will be engaged in the management of it later so there's sort of a courtesy that we would have with them all understand what the force management plan is so that the parties are in fall the the neighborhood groups have said a say in this management and I think there are some elements that some people agree with that and others don't and I think that's where the disagreement is but the way that it's said there was a disagreement on what the force management plan was for a while also how it was written people weren't happy with how it had been written and it was being rewritten but the types of changes how would you describe the types of changes it was identifying preferential species of trees there are some technical things it was mostly technical stuff about how the land would be managed so it gets approved by us and it's been rewritten by different parts I'm just trying to figure out what the so we approve it as an exhibit to the LDA but we're not a signatory to it because that's being signed by the conservation commission by the trust of the it's for the future management of the land that really happens when the project is over and we've signed the CR documents and all of the open spaces are turned over to this tribe party management which is why the tribe party should have the biggest role at it because they're the ones that have to live with it and I don't want to get in a jurisdictional with concom or the land trust I think we'll wait until our decision because we're going to be managing this but it's really your comment so why don't you review it Christine and we recommend that they sign it yeah and then we can only do what we can do with that I mean if we approve it we can review it and approve it based on conditions that we come from the concom and the LDA but then we're approving we're not, we're only approving it at a point in time I mean after that happens we don't have anything else to do with it I don't think we see no problem it complies with what we expect you're just ready for you to sign yeah and if you choose to change it after we've approved it then that's on you I think well if they have an amendment we can also need to approve the amendment if they want to add a condition or change something for all time well it's still part of the special permanent management program if we sign off and say yes we're happy with the management plan go sign it and they sign it and six months later someone says okay I want to amend that and here's how we want to amend it do they come back here for us to review it boy that's not like a good plan well just until it becomes the permanent no that's what I would think once it gets merged into the CR it's out of our hands wouldn't it be I think so it's just for this time realistically that makes sense until it's in the CR so if six months from now if it's not permanent yet yeah they would have to come back say we think this is approvable we want you to sign it they don't sign it though you guys just accept it okay nobody signs it nobody signs it there's no signature there's no signature but if there's amendments to it I think the board should consider that if in maybe your criteria is that the three parties that will be the future management have to agree that those amendments are good amendments I don't think anyone has any debate about what technically is a good thing to add or not well the concom might have some concom they need to listen to that that's why they're reviewing it so for us as developers we're like well as long as concom is happy we're happy it's this future stuff that's all you make good equalizing and members of the concom took it hand in writing it along with members of the ALT but the concom works as a board so that one member can't say okay it's approved by the concom they have designated one person so I think we're a little bit lost as a wrong word but I think we need to get our ducks in a row and have a plan for the next meeting I don't think that we can have that plan for right now and I think that the September 5th vote coming up I don't have the plan I have an old draft but there's a new draft we can send you the code from concom but you have to that's the same plan well no I actually spoke with Brian and Kathy this morning we were out at your site looking at the marketing trailer site that's going to come up later I think in another meeting we'll bring that up later but they both said that it's being finished today and being sent to the concom I believe that was and that the concom was going to be reviewing it on the 5th and I asked them to send it to me also so I think I did so I can review that as soon as I get it and at the next we can put it on the agenda for the next meeting I also would ask that whatever is going to the concom on the 5th get sent to us in our Wednesday packet that week so that we can whether or not they approve it we'll be sending it in our package to look at so we can ask Brian to send it to us I'll just ask him to get me for you let's just put it on the agenda and it's going to be the draft plan it's going to be the final plan unless they get their endorsement together it just gives them a deadline I see what you're saying they've told you that so that's I think we're going to be able to do anything tonight and what we can do is we can prepare for the next one and get them to set that deadline we're going to submit it and you guys are going to review it but most probably you're probably going to accept it unless they have your code or write notifications you're going to have and we'll so whatever it is that they're going to take a look at and with amendments and everything else that's what we'd like to see that week before their meeting on the FAST right they want things to kick a little bit a lot we really do I know there's a lot of things we want to keep things moving we're with you I know and then just again on the kind of minion documents very valid points that were raised about the voting there's different perspectives that we should we'll have to bridge and balance we'll do that but just before we there's a balance we'll go through that okay well are there any questions from a schedule perspective yeah how are things moving on sales it's been challenging we're going through a process a certificate of occupancy process for safety and access on the site for the public with the building inspector and the building department and have been told that not to show or arrange for buyers to come in and look at their units and that's very difficult people just aren't committed to PNS unless they walk into the units and really see them so we are working on that we understand the building department's concerns about safety and a lot of that will be elated with the first TC of O because there's a whole access and fencing off of the lineation between the construction side and the open side things are coming together the power lines are going down we're hoping to remove the power lines the next week or so the cell tower is supposed to be done offsite by the end of the month there's been a lot of cleanup we're now in the signage down at the bottom of the road are coming along we've delineated the fencing around the shelter site so it's migrated to be just on their side of Sims Road and some of the construction fencing that's along that edge we're taking down and beginning the replanting with the buffer zone and executing that and then we're delineating the portion of the construction site to the left of Sims Road now and Sims Circle coming together to the left hand side will be delineated from that point to where the turnaround is at the top of the site and that will become a construction zone and then the landscape will be coming around the front of the buildings and coming up to the front town so it's all coming together to start the construction are the two parks graded and getting ready to receive? as soon as the power lines are down we're going to be trying to remove the site construction office at the lower-vista part and so that's the final sort of grading that happens and then once the poles are down we will use that site as staging for construction initially the lower-vista part will be the last landscape thing to be backed out of the site because we have nowhere else to put anything so but we're expecting to be done with that by the end of October so everything we planned is issued? it's pretty dynamic up there and I again encourage people to come look at it because you understand it more when you see it we also are taking down the mock-ups we're using them to document but we're moving them just to prepare for the landscaping but the sidewalk the curves are now in it gives definition we'd be done the final fencing along the vista circle side of the site going out to Woodside Land and we'll be done soon for that section so we get some of the grading done so it's all starting to transform much more every day into a more of a finished look and experience on the exterior the town homes that are for sale once those garage doors go up I think it's really going to change I think that's supposed to be happening it's already this week and the landscaping in front of those town homes is really coming together with the street lights installed and really the activation of the power is happening so yeah a lot of things are happening we had a pipe burst at 3 o'clock this morning and it surrounded 12 units finished units they were already punched out so you know you get back up and you fix the problem but you know the sprinklers burst so yeah it's unfortunate but the pool deck is coming together the entry plaza sequence is really shaping up nicely the lobby was done I think it damaged a little bit but we're the leasing offices so you really get a sense of the finish of the tilework and the interior finishes and things like that so any units look at the boiler views look really good so can we come up at any time Thursdays are the best from a logistic perspective but Friday's work Monday's are also big but you know any time that works I know it's usually going to be either early in the morning or later and everybody has their name that we've done and Andrew would enjoy doing the first door it's pretty exciting how about the assisted living how far are they they're picking up speed they had roof trusses delivered so they're topping up quickly and what's their schedule for completion they should be in February so we're going to still be looking at probably more of a spring planting so their slope stabilization won't happen until the spring whatever they're going to do on that back roof truss that's one of the issues we want to talk about you know like I said to Brian I know that there's anxiety about that there's a plan that was approved that's the standard the plan that was approved for the roof truss slope just overall including all of the lines except for that slope we had questions about that pocket planting of the lines that was going to happen and they never came back with a resolution I believe that's the way we left it I certainly had questions about their detail I think the shelter view is that there's a landscape plan that was approved and they have to do it there's a detail that probably is not going to work I think I think the depth of the the riprap is deeper than they had anticipated oh even deeper than what was on the drawing yes so I think that that needs to be addressed what we'd like to see is the same bulged blanket with seating that they're doing on the upper slope but I think I described once to everybody that way the rock would be covered with a layer of natural material so what I would do what I have in the English shelter is saying I think we need to address this and go into that detail do we need to call them back to look at that we can do that let's see what happens the next month they've been very focused on the tight coordination it's a very difficult site for them to build on and the coordination was getting our utilities up hospital road was keeping the upper site accessible with them needing to have drill it to deliveries and they've also had a couple instances of other trucks that had to go up and turn around and they can't turn around and go over and smash them when we coordinate we get through it and we get it done and it's not till spring that that's happening but the sooner it gets delineated the better and I know that Concom is looking at that and tracking that and it will be changing from what it looks like now so let's keep it as an issue but I think at 11 o'clock I think we're pretty much I think once they see the other I agree so I think we'll take a motion to sorry we do have two more things we'll postpone both of them until the next meeting motion to adjourn go ahead Andrew you can second it all in favor