 It's a Tuesday edition of the Private Property Part, Carsten, for joining us for the first time. Welcome to the family. You're tuned in to the only daily property show in South Africa, catering to your property needs. And it doesn't matter where you are on your property journey, we're certainly here to make sure that you have a better journey ahead. And to all our regular viewers on Facebook and Instagram on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how we do every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7 o'clock where I'm always in conversation with the property expert who helps us to make better property decisions. And talking about making better property decisions, you can catch our other great shows across private property social media platforms every single weekday at 8 p.m. As it's a Tuesday, you can catch them by Linoa got on the farming podcast tackling all things agriculture and she's on your screens every Thursday at the same time. And every Monday and Friday is a child brings you the home shopper's show where he takes you through exquisite properties that you can find on www.privatepoverty.co.za. And of course, every Wednesday, Estie Carson brings you the first time home by a show where she's always in conversation with people who've not only walked that first time home buying journey but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from stream to stream. Well, those are great shows that you can look forward to every single weekday right here across private property social media pages on at 8 p.m. rather. And of course, the other thing that you can look forward to is the competition that we're running on our Facebook page. And I see that we might be having some Tim Grimlins in the system. Don't worry, we're about to be on and it's certainly going to be live across our social media platforms. The team is aware of this and will be coming to you shortly. But talking about that competition, of course, it's a great competition that we're running across our social media pages. And all you have to do there to stand a chance of walking away with that cash prize where it's we give away 500 rounds in cash. Every single weekday is, of course, make sure that you comment on the pinned post on our Facebook page and you send a chance of walking away with that cash prize. I'm going to check in with my colleague and I can see that we're now on across our platforms and we are certainly coming to you. I apologize for those glitches, but we are certainly slowly coming on across the different platforms. Well, the money bag is back at 500 rounds in our competition. Yesterday we had our lucky winner, Puli Nankosi, winning that 4,000 rounds that was in the money bag. I know that we are broadcasting on YouTube. So you're watching us on YouTube. You can certainly get us. It is the other platforms of Facebook as well as Instagram, where there's minor glitches. But the show always continues, right here on private property. And of course, on the private property podcast with myself, Osama Domo, Milo. Well, to kick start our conversation this evening, we're talking about changing your marital property regime. I'm joined by a Kathleen's label, a director at Mulefe's label Incorporated. Kathleen, good evening and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening, Zama. And thank you for inviting me. And good evening to your listeners and your audience. And I think, Kathleen, before we even look at, you know, what happens when you change, things that you should be watching out for, what, when we talk about your marital property regime, what exactly is it that we are talking about? A marital property regime is a principle of how you get married. And it's regulated by the Madrid Manual Property Act of 88 of 1984. There were different property regimes before 1984. But the 1984 Act actually tried to conceptualize the marital regime in a sequence, you know? There are different types of marital regimes. As you know, marriage is an agreement between two people and you have to discuss how you want to get married because it affects the consequences and your consequences of your property and how everything about you changes once you get married. And I think let's look at the different types of property regimes then that we effectively get Kathleen. Okay, we've got the original marriage in community of property when both parties marry in community of property and they jointly own everything that they acquire. Then there's a marriage out of community of property with the application of the accrual system where you can, it's an out of community of property but you jointly own what you acquired after the marriage. But then there's a marriage out of community of property we call it out and out where yours is yours, mine is mine. But within a marriage out of community of property you have to sign a contract which is an anti-nuclear contract and regulate the relationship of your marriage, how you want it to be regulated. So you have to sign that contract just before you get married and it has to be registered before a notary and because once you get married without signing that contract that means you are married in community of property. And I think I want to pick up on that Kathleen because I think we often find so many people tend to not be aware that you need to sign it before you effectively get married. It's not something that you can kind of wake up two weeks after the wedding day or even the following day and say that you want to quickly sign it. If anything that process is a whole process when you look at the contract that you're going to sign that anti-neptial contract perhaps give us a few pointers on what you should be looking out for when you're now talking to your partner about the anti-neptial contract that both of you are looking to sign. Okay, the anti-neptial contract both as you know that now parties before they get married they come from somewhere they've acquired properties from wherever they come from. So some of them they've inherited some of them just donated. So an anti-neptial contract specifies what actually are you going to share if you get married and what you don't want to share what is yours and it is his. So we call it it is definitely a contract but you can't enter into it after the marriage until unless if you apply to court even if you enter into it in the money at seven then you are getting married at 10 but the anti-neptial contract will actually state that it was signed at seven on such and such a day and then you are getting married at 10. So it actually regulates all the consequences of the marriage and what is the reform pattern of a joint property. I am this evening in conversation with Kathleen Leipzig director at Milifert Leipzig Incorporated. We're looking at changing your marital property regime whether you're married in community or property or of course married out of community or property you've signed an anti-neptial contract whether you're looking at the cruel or not having the cruel system and looking at the ins and outs and of course how it affects you especially when you have things like actual property at stake and of course other assets or even children who are part of the equation I want to find out from you. When you look at your marital contract were you even aware of the different kinds of marital contracts that were available before you entered into your marriage that many people tend to almost automatically find themselves being married in community or property they weren't aware that there are different ways that you could enter into the institution of marriage. Were you aware what were some of the pointers that you learned along the way perhaps if you have an anti-neptial contract in place what were some of the things that were very important for you to be included in that contract. Now, Kathleen, when we look at the anti-neptial contract I think what are some of the mistakes that parties make when it comes to that anti-neptial contract and I want us to even look at black people in particular because I think sometimes when we look at the anti-neptial contract people often think oh, you know, I'm timby, do you think I don't love you when they want to justify whether or not we shouldn't be signing an anti-neptial contract when in effect we really are protecting the family's assets it's not even about individual trust but it really is about best protecting the family and the family's assets. What are some common mistakes that we sometimes make when it comes to anti-neptial contracts? I think it's about the common mistake before I go to the common mistake I shouldn't, I must mention that there's another a customary marriage, you know especially when you enter into a customary marriage there is a contract also if you want to protect the property consequences maybe twice you can sign that contract but it has to be registered at the same time but one of the common mistakes that we do we tend to believe that when you are married out of community of property you don't love each other, you know and the contract actually regulates your proprietary consequences when you divorce or when you die, you know because that's basically where the problems start on the time of divorce. So if I'm having my family house then Mr. comes into my space then if we did not sign that contract we have to share that family house only to find we have other siblings and now the other siblings are outside of the whole equation so it's always important to say to put and to paper and say this is my family house I inherited it from my parents let me protect it by in a contract so that you found me with this family house it does not form patent parcel of the marriage. So those especially moveable property especially with our communities the family house has become such a sad issue when divorce is okay and death is okay because some of the people are being changed because you didn't indicate that it is a family house. And I think when we think about the politics of the family house even outside of marriage just within the siblings or the grandchildren who are supposed to essentially share the family home we already have so much drama and it gets highly contested. I can only imagine then the dynamic that it adds in if you're one of the heirs to that family home and then you get married and it's not adequately stipulated that this is actually one form part of what you go into a marriage with. I want us to go for a quick break and find out who the lucky winner of the competition that we're running on Facebook. I already know that on Facebook we're having a few issues. Unfortunately it's a Facebook issue the team has been trying to get us on Facebook but we are of course coming to you across our other social media platforms and we do apologize for that and of course after we come back from this break I'll also read through some of the incredible entries that we also received from some of you at home who posted there on the Facebook page but in the meantime let's see who the lucky winner of that 500 Rands in cash is. And that lucky winner is Unduduzo Clint. Unduduzo Clint, the lucky winner of the 500 Rands that is in the money bag. Remember you have to drop us a comment below and if anything I'd even say sliding to our DMs because I know that we are having a few issues with our Facebook page and of course do get in touch with us in order to claim that prize. As we continue the conversation with Kathleen Glebuz the director at UNIFIP Glebuz Incorporated looking at changing your marital property regime. Now Kathleen, I think we've looked at some of the mistakes that people also, you know people often make with international contracts what are the mistakes that people make when they enter into, you know marriages in community of property because I think that one is so common we already know some of the drama that you know sometimes tends to come up but what are some of those common mistakes certainly that attorneys end up having to deal with because of the mistakes that the two parties who've entered into their agreement have made? Okay at the same time the marriage and the anti-natural contracts get signed executed before a lottery. So the lottery has to explain in detail to say who, what do you want? It's your decision what needs to be in that contract. So if you don't put everything in maybe you're afraid of the other party so it's a problem but whatever goes into that paper is what both parties wish to be in that paper. The notary will actually explain what needs to be in that document but it's up to the parties if they really put it in. And I think Jaclyn then when we look at changing so you start when you got married you got married in community of property perhaps you weren't so clear about the different kinds of ways that one could get married and you've now certainly gotten slightly more chewed up about the implications of let's say being married in community of property and the potential threat to the family's assets when you then want to change the marital status to have that contract in place where you're now no longer married in community of property what are the active steps that you need to be taking? Any change in the marriage of status you have to go to court. You go to court and apply for the status of the marriage to be changed. A lot of them is changing from in community of property to out of community of property is accrual. Basically it happens because when you get married sometimes you get married when you are still young and you tend to become a business person. So you are trying to protect the other party from the obligations of the business and everything that will go wrong in that business so that whatever happens if they have to declare you insolvent it must be you alone and not affect the other party and if there are creditors it must be you alone and not affect the other party. So but before you you have to go to court we call it a section 21 application so it's an application it's an expert day you know application firstly you have to indicate to court why do you want to change their marital system nobody as I say a business person you've decided that you want to go into business you don't want it to be affected but if the property is bonded you have to inform all the creditors once you have to inform the creditors because the court will want to see that the creditors have consented to your changing of the marriage right? And the reason is why for that is that they don't want the creditors to be prejudiced you may find change the marriage system you can't even afford to pay that bond when you are alone you know so the creditors need to know and and sign consent forms to say we consent to the change of the marriage which we are not we are not going to be prejudiced in the changing of the marriage and when in that application you must attach the drafts of what you intend doing the intended anti-national contract the court will want to see that you are entering into a contract which is not it is proper there are those contracts we can't say to a person enter into a contract I can only marry you if you bear me children and all those things those things which are against the law we call them contract bonus mores in law so the court will want to see what you are going to intend doing so once the court has given you that court order you can go and register that contract then the marriage is changed so the court order and the contract are attached and the diss office has to be notified of that you serve that change because remember when you are married if you have property the diss office have record of your your immovable property as married in commit of property so if you want to change you have to serve on the share on the diss office also to say that I'm changing my marriage so that they can amend the contract and we are in conversation this evening with the captain jebel director et al jebel incorporated taking your questions and comments this evening we've got on our facebook on our youtube page rather tiatu muniay saying if I marry any community of property with someone who has children and their partner died and I obliged to take care of those children according to the contract so you know the partner dies you marry this person in community of property they have children and in the event where perhaps then the person that you married to also passes away are you now obligated to be the guardian of those children I don't know what you agreed upon if you adopted those children as yours you are obliged because they are your children once they are adopted once they change into your surname you are obliged to do that but the minor children obviously if the other spouse dies the the children will inherit a portion of that their mother or their dad who died so you've got half of the property and they inherit from the share of their mother or the the dead whoever has passed on but once you have adopted them then you are obliged to do that and I think then Kathleen when we look at the change of the marital property regime in the in the instance where people get divorced and and obviously now you know assets need to be you know split or people have to go there you know their separate ways depending on how people are married how does that process typically work and we can start with in the event where people are married in community of property and are now you know going through a divorce and then move on to when people had signed an anti-natural contract and are now in the process of getting divorced but when married people are married in community of a property then they get divorced they either do two things to enter into a settlement agreement to say who takes what out of the marriage but if they don't enter into a settlement agreement then you have to go to you have to go to court to apply for a receiver and liquidator somebody who will take charge of your property and divide the property for him right which is the most expensive one I always encourage couples to go enter into an agreement and specify but even if they've entered into an agreement sometimes things don't go the way they want so you still have to go to court and appoint a person called a receiver an independent person called a receiver and liquidator who will take charge and distribute on your behalf but when you are married out of community of property the ANC the anti-natural contract is your guide if it's with a cruel obviously you'll check at the commencement value if I'm married to Zama or somebody's married to Zama Zama had a 40,000 the other one at the commencement of marriage had 100,000 but when we divorce Zama has 50,000 and the other one has a million we have to equalize on the accrual but what you had extruded obviously it will be approved but when you are married out of community of property what we call out and out you cheap what you have in terms of the contract we've got to my question I am saying I don't on our on our YouTube page there saying I don't want to do this question please allow me to ask now so can we change the regime just before getting divorced not asking for a friend so in the event where and and and I hope I'm understanding it clearly Martha so before we actually get divorced suppose you are married in community of property and now you want to perhaps you know change the nature of the of the marriage before perhaps at some point getting divorced is that something that would be possible Kathleen I do not I don't think you get married with the intention of getting divorced but if you feel that the partner is not in control of the matrimonyal property well you can apply to court but I think it will be ingenious of you to say I'm changing now but the following year and divorcing that that's very ingenious but if you agree to do that there's nobody there's nothing that prevents you and then I think you know Kathleen divorces and we're even seeing of a divorcee thing is such an unpleasant experience to to go through and it's only one of those experiences that I know anybody who's even gone through it attorneys who deal with divorces wouldn't wish it on anybody but what are some common mistakes that people make when they're in the process of now divorcing when it comes to the splitting of particularly the assets and even perhaps the the liabilities just common mistakes that sometimes even you know drag up the divorce longer than it potentially should or even end up costing and you know either parties more money than it probably should have the common mistake is that you you haven't entered into a contractor on how to regulate your marriage but the problem is you know divorces take place at the worst start of people you know they you suddenly hate the party who's next to you and you're being with that person for almost 20 years for me it's so it's so unfortunate and uncalled for and especially when they're children so as I tell you we normally try and make them see that they don't the divorce won't only affect them it will affect even the children so how I try and encourage them to come to a settlement which it will benefit both parties that's why I spoke about mediation sometimes to say mediation is a win-win situation you know but unfortunately people who sometimes want to get divorced they want to spite the other one you can't get anything what I've worked for but having forgotten that you stayed with this person for the past 20 years even if that person is not working he has contributed to have the marriage I see Marta Shahi saying clearly articulated thank you Zama so we definitely did get the righteous of what she was asking us you don't want to change the nature of your marriage knowing very well that you're going to divorce or you're going to institute divorce proceedings in the next few months I think that's definitely something that somebody wouldn't want to do we've got Pralina Angosa saying I'm afraid of marrying in community of property because all his debts will affect my credit score anyway I envy those brave souls who go that route I think you know Kathleen what are the perks if any of getting involved of getting married in community of property because I know that that's that's a very big fear that we tend to have so many people have stories of you know relatives who are married that way and ended up losing quite a bit when we look at the different kinds of you know married contracts that one could have are there any benefits of getting married in community of property from my personal view because there is an anti-marriage out of community of property with a court I've lately advised my client to do that because marriage or in community of property the experiences that I've had when things are bad it becomes very sour so you'd rather go into an anti-natural contract and say we will share what we achieve we get when we have achieved together you know and this is how we are going to share it because in an absolute confidential contract you can even do it through nations you can do anything because it's a contract but in community of property for me I think things are changing you know things are changing you find young women self-sustained and even young men having inherited so I'd rather go for a marriage in community of property out of community of property with a cruel system say that from the date we signed if we have signed on the 23rd then we start sharing from that date but remember this is meant for the day when things are bad when you are divorcing or when you die you know it's not like it happens while you are still happy there's nothing wrong with the community of property if you love each other and trust each other I don't have a problem but for me it's a better bet to maybe out of community of property with a cruel system because each party understands what they want you know yeah and who they are genuine they understand and they trust each other and Kathleen as you wrap up our conversation you know any final tips for our viewers at home when it comes to you know changing the the status of your of your you know marriage any tips that they should keep in mind in the event where they're already married or certainly for those at home who may want to get married in the future I think for me before you get married try and source advice you know because before I'll advise you the types of marriages that you can enter into so that by the time you get married you'll be very well informed there's no harm in doing that but go and consult an attorney or a social worker or anybody to say what type of marriages are out there you know so before because sometimes even as when we're young we just got excited and got married you only discover when you want to be a business person to say wow that was a mistake you know so then to change a marital system is quite expensive because we have to go to court and pay an attorney you know to do that and advertising the newspaper but we are changing our marital system yeah and I guess Kathleen that's why we sometimes see people divorcing and then remarrying is that some of them some sometimes the reason why you know some people up to to rather divorce even though they know that they're actually going to remarry at this time around sign that anti-neptal contract and stipulate where things should be going and how they should be going yes I've seen people doing that but it's quite risky because once you're divorced if the other party doesn't want to remarry then you are in problems I mean that would be the worst thing sitting down one evening saying okay we're going to divorce so you'd rather start with problems yeah I think that would be the worst I think that would actually be the worst when a party then decides no actually they say it's fine we don't need to do that again Kathleen we're going to leave it there this evening thank you so much for joining us on the show it's almost such a pleasure to have you with us oh thank you and thank you to your listeners thank you Zama thanks and that is Kathleen Leopold who is a director at Militia Leopold Incorporated talking about changing your marital property regime right here on the private property podcast with myself is Amandamwa Kamala well we have a roll over this evening so tomorrow evening you can expect 1000 rands in the money bag and we do apologize there for those technical glitches in the beginning end of the show but the show always continues and we're always going to make sure that we give you a daily dose of all things relating to property well that's it for myself is Amandamwa Kamala and the rest of the team we're going to be back on your screens tomorrow evening at 7 p.m. but do stay tuned for the farming podcast coming up at 8 with Ombali Mwagol until then hoping you're staying home and staying safe