 at the Neurodiversity Matters Conference. We just had some great interviews with other organizations and now we have our next panel discussion which is featuring a number of playwrights who are currently working with STE on the Neurodiversity New Play Festival. This panel is being moderated by the amazing Gary Garrison who is so nice to come and help lead this discussion for us. So with that, I'm gonna hand it over to Gary. Thank you, Clay. Hi everybody. So before we get started talking about the kinds of things that we think might be of interest to you and certainly to any playwright that is working in the American people right now, I thought we should start by, if we could get you guys to introduce yourselves and also tell us a little bit about what you're doing with Spectrum. Dave? Hi, everyone. My name is Dave Osmondson. I'm a playwright and dramaturg and I am going to be a dramaturg in some pieces for Spectrum Theater Ensemble. And I may or may not have a play in their Neurodiversity Play Festival later this summer. Stay tuned for the announcement. Jeremy. Hi, it's good to be here. Hello to everybody. And I first worked with Spectrum in 2015, I think, 2016 and they had done a device theater project for a few weeks and then I joined for a week and did some workshops with it as we brought it to form. And then from there, I came back and developed a piece with seven Ensemble members over the course of the year, a play that we now call The Importance of Being. And that will be read also as part of this festival. And I'm writing a 10 minute play as part of this festival as well. Great. Hi, Amina, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. My name is Amina Henry and playwright and I am collaborating with members of the group to write a 10 minute play for the festival. Sure. Members of the Ensemble. Sure. Dean. Yeah, thanks for, I'm glad to be here and I'm a playwright and I'm working on a 10 minute play somewhere around aging and neurodiversity. And so right now we're in workshops having conversations with a bunch of actors about what aging is like. That's great. That's great. Well, listen again, thank you for joining us. So all of you are, as we said at the very top of the introduction are working with Spectrum. So I'm curious how Spectrum is feeding you or how you are feeding Spectrum. Like how does, tell me how it feels to have found this company or for this company to have found you and what it means to you as a playwright. Yeah. Well, as someone who has Asperger syndrome neurodiversity and theater is something that I've been thinking a lot about recently and kind of my relationship with my autism as a playwright and how that factors into my work. And I think it's really great that there is a theater company that's dedicated to having neurodiverse people, neurotypical and atypical people in collaboration to create works that revolve around people who are on the autism spectrum. And I think there's gonna be a lot of real ancient opportunity to tell like different stories about people on the autism spectrum. And I'm really excited for the potential of that. Right. I'm just really grateful to have the opportunity to collaborate with new people. So Spectrum has offered me that, I love that. And has trusted me with the task of developing a piece for the group. And I'm really excited to have the opportunity to learn more about autism. So that's been really great. And Amina, when we talked about this not so long ago and you were talking about your rehearsal process that you just, I think you'd just come from your rehearsal process. And I was saying, well, was that experience different for you or was there anything of particular note about it? And can you share what you shared with me then? Cause I thought it was really interesting. What did I share? I don't remember. I think I said that it felt like a pretty normal workshop process in the sense that I was just with actors and a director and a stage manager kind of sorting through what stories we want to tell and getting to know each other. We actually didn't talk about autism at all during my workshop. So that was kind of interesting. So in a way, it wasn't any different from a regular rehearsal process, but there was maybe a little bit of a difference because number one, it was the first time I've tried to have a workshop on Zoom or on my computer. So that was one thing. But then also the actresses that I'm working with there is a slight difference kind of, but it's hard for me to articulate what it is. So on the one hand it was the same and on the other hand it was different, but they were very eager and very humble and very just open and willing to play. So that was really great. Sure. By the way, that is exactly what you said. Okay, great. I just wanted to share that because I thought it was so interesting because it was your first rehearsal and you'd walked into it kind of looking to see what was gonna happen and what was going on. And as you reported, there wasn't really anything to report. I'm curious, has it changed over time or has it stayed pretty much the same? I mean, I'm at the point right now where I'm still trying to figure out what the play is gonna be. So I haven't really been communicating with the actresses. Cause I'm still looking for my, I'm still processing all of the stuff they gave me. Sure. Jeremy, anything that you wanna tell us about your relationship with Spectrum? Yeah. So just having it been four or five years now and I don't live in Providence, but I've made several trips there and spent a lot of time there. And on one level, maybe the basic level or maybe the, what it's all about is it's just building community and art is a form of building community and being able to do that an authentic way. I think there are a lot of inauthentic ways to build community. And I think this is being able to sit down and work together and listen to each other and make, create together is, they're just nothing like that. See how to do it to all the cynicism and all the sort of things out there, political and personal otherwise in our world today. And so, and I think the other idea that the other feeling I have is this like, this notion of inclusion, something that too implies a sense of power of who gets to include who doesn't and what's some. So valuable to me about this, this company is like Dave was saying that it being a mix of neurodiverse, neuro-typical, the empowerment kind of shifts in a way and we're acting out, oh, okay. Thank you for inviting me in and we could actually build into like something of a true sense of what it means to include each other. The other thing I think is, well, two small things. I think other, I really appreciate that this company is also doing some of the work to, for the artists that are involved who did not get opportunities along the way. This company is doing it and producing professional work. So it was both, we are learning, we are growing as artists is very much up in the front and center, but also we're still doing it. We're not using that missed opportunity in the past as a reason to like wait, you have to do this training, you have to go through this channel. Now we're gonna create ourselves, we're gonna create our own channels. So I think that's really exciting to see from five years to see the ensemble grow as actors, as theater artists has been really exciting. And then the last thing, very on a personal level, I used to be, I was a third grade teacher and a middle school teacher for like eight years and having had this experience and all the conversations we had, it made me go back to all those years of me teaching and wondering what things I missed. I'm beating myself up, but also in a sense for like just a reminder and a personal push to always, always go beyond which just comes to you in life in whatever sort of things that make up one's identity externally or internally that looking back at that has actually like made me see the world a little bit a broader way again. That's terrific. Dean? I feel like a real newbie, you know, I think Spectrum Theater found me through Jeremy this year and I have an autistic nephew who's six. And so I felt like working with Spectrum was a way to be closer to him and understand his world better. But certainly I'm learning a lot as I go. And I, you know, these first workshop days that we're having feel a little bit more like we're just talking about ideas and life experience together and then we'll see what happens from that. But that I think similarly is not particularly remarkable. We're all just coming from various walks of life just like we often do in a rehearsal room and we're sharing what those are. Even in rehearsal rooms where I'm not with Spectrum, I'm always surprised by somebody's life experience that I wasn't expecting. So it feels somewhat similar in that way. And one thing that I think I feel like I should mention, I think I maybe was told, but maybe forgot or maybe was told after, but I thought that all of my actresses, all three of them were on the autistic spectrum and actually only two of them are, but I didn't know, like I didn't quite realize which one of which two. And so that was interesting to me and it just, it's got me really thoughtful about kind of the scope of human nature anyway because they just seems like and sort of thinking about the Spectrum because they really, maybe there are slight differences, but they really are different in the sense that we're all unique and different and being autistic was not all of who they were clearly or even the most interesting thing about them. So that was great for me to remember as I was working with them. Interesting. Well, actually, which kind of leads me to my next question, which is this panel today is called Around Table on Creating Neurodiverse Plays. So I, anybody tell me what that means or what that is or what it means to you. I don't know that there isn't a blanket answer for that, but what does it mean to you in particular? Yeah, but something that I think about a lot, I think about a lot as a few to go or end playwright is like there are a lot of really great plays about autism that are written by people who aren't on the Spectrum. And it gets me thinking a lot about how can we make room for playwrights who are on the Spectrum to tell these stories? And I think it starts a lot with hiring like autistic actors, autistic directors, centering stories about autistic people through an incident of dog and the night. So I think it's a very good example of this. And I think the definition of neurodiverse plays is, I feel like autism, there can be many definitions of neurodiverse plays because every autistic people experiences autism in a different way. And I think creating neurodiverse plays could be a really good way of kind of honoring that wide range of diversity of experience. And Dave, I know you also self-identify in other ways as well. So do those, particularly in our introductions, you had said that you also identify as a queer playwright, which I do as well. So do you find that you are marrying those two things together in this work or is it just, or there is no formula for it, it's just whatever happens when you go, sorry. I mean, I find that my queerness and my autism kind of seeps its way into all of my plays. Somehow there's only, I think I only have like a few plays where they are directly linked. But I wrote a play called Light Switch where that featured a queer autistic character because I'd never seen that experience for a trade before. I think the only other, I can be totally wrong, I think the only other story about queerness and disability being intersected that I've seen was the method series special, which if you haven't seen it, it's great. But I think a lot about how the idea of queerness is kind of going against a prescribed norm. And I may be totally out-based in saying this, but I feel like in many ways, autism kind of queers neurotypicality in many ways. I think one is since autistic people are often wired differently, it tends to look at the world, and at least in my experience, kind of a more questioning manner of, oh, why do people act this way? What kind of rules are they following? What will they get out of following these rules? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that's one way I think autism is kind of a clarification of neurotypicality. Okay, someone else? Well, I lost the question because I got so interested in Dave's answers. Yeah. But I was just gonna add that as a queer playwright, my room is like three queer men and one heterosexual man. That's how our workshop room is broken down right now anyway. And I think one is neurotypical and three, oh, neurodiverse. It's just, it's fun the way those things are breaking down. But I think the question was something like what is a neurodiverse play? Right. And I have no idea. I'm sorry, I've just, how is it defined for you? Or how are you defining it? Or are you defining it? Or anything like that? I think I'm not at this point. And I've also shifted artistically from writing plays that are more identity based to thinking more metaphorically and sort of in different ways. So I'm curious where those things overlap. Or like, you know, when I look at my nephew and he wants to put on his big earphones because everything is too loud, I think, oh yeah, me too. Like there's too much stimulation in the world. And so I guess I'm sort of curious as to the human experiences that are maybe have the details that are slightly different, but that are just so basically human and trying to see what comes from that. And Dean, what pulled you into this project or what was that kernel, that moment that you were pulled in and you thought, yeah, I want to do that. I want to explore that or I want to understand that or any of those things. I think what I was talking to Clay originally, I said, you know what I don't feel qualified to do because I'm not autistic is to write a play that's about that particular experience. And then I just think artistically where I am for this to be kind of also useful to me is I don't want to just write a story about here. This is who this person is and give it to you. I just, I'm more interested in, and I think as a person in their mid 40s, I'm between generations. So that is something that's a particular lens through which I'm looking at the world now. And Clay was excited by that too. And so I'm particularly also, I love working with older actors. I think the break times and the stories they have are just so fascinating that it makes all of it worth it just to spend time with them in the room. You bet. I mean, can I ask you that same question? What pulled you into this? What was that thing that hooked you in? And you said, yeah, I want to explore this or I want to attach myself to figure out X or to understand why are any of those things? I don't know if it was just, if it was one thing, I think it was a number of things. Jeremy initially pulled me into the project and I think I was really interested in the idea of being a playwright who performs a particular service because it's a commissioned piece and it's not actually about me or it's not like, oh, I'm going to sit down and write a play and then actors are going to come and be in it. It's really about, okay, how can I best articulate for me what the women that I'm working with want to articulate? Like, what is the story that we want to tell together about their experience is really interesting to me. I love working with women. So, and my room is women. I mean, it's interesting. I don't really know either necessarily what a neurodiverse play is but I also don't quite know all the time or I don't have a consistent answer about what a black play is or what a female play is. So, just kind of like, you know, it's a neurodiverse play because we're all neurodiverse who are involved, I suppose, but again. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, sure. Like, I'm a little bit hesitant to put the play that I put my play in that particular kind of box but at the same time, I think until it becomes very unconscious and very sort of all the time, I think you have to be really mindful about it and sort of say it. So, I don't know. Like, I get a little bit, which you washy and befuddled when we talk about point access points of identity because I'm like, because there are so many different ways that people identify because as I said, these women being neurodiverse was not the most interesting thing about them necessarily. We were all racially diverse and that came up a bit. We were all like, we're all just so different even as women. So, yeah. So, can I ask you then kind of, can you just detail a little bit of your process? Like, are you walking in asking questions or walking in having a discussion? Are you saying let's find common ground? So, what's been your approach to the process of creating? I asked a lot of questions and let them ask me questions. And I also, and it was very conversational and our director had them do a few, or not a few, had them do some physical exercises based on some of the answers to our question, to the questions. And then based on what they did physically, that gave me some thoughts to write down for notes and things that I'm kind of still processing for later. So, our pieces I think more devised than I usually deal with, but that's exciting to me. Sure, you bet. Cause I find devised theater actually really intimidating cause I'm super controlling. So, this is a good exercise for me. By the way, you and everybody else on this panel. Dave. Yeah, something that Amina said that really struck me was like she said she wasn't entirely sure how to define like a woman play or like a black play. And I feel like asking what is a neurodiverse play or what is a black play? What is a female play? Kind of runs the risk of having marginalized groups have like one representative playwrights. And I feel like in all and really any experience like there's capability for a wide range of stories to be told. Speaking for myself, I hope that my play about being queer and autistic doesn't become the play about being queer and autistic. I really hope it opens the door for like a variety of stories about queerness and autism and how they intersect. And I think it defining what is a neurodiverse play is acknowledging that there is room for all those experiences. Well, particularly if you had any work done in a festival before and you realize from whatever position you stand in or sit in that you are the queer playwright in the group, you are the female playwright in the group, you are the black playwright in the group. There's a weight on that that I don't think anybody wants on their shoulders, frankly. Jeremy, what about you? Are there things? Is there anything about in your work that you particularly respond to in this label of a neurodiverse play if there's such a thing? I agree with mostly what people had said. I think maybe I'm interested in the question about what drew me in as me being someone who's not on the spectrum and then what that process was. I mean, for me, the adage of write what you know is only half the equation. I think it's where my story meets something outside. My story is where I tend to go as an artist. I think that writing for me has always been my way to travel, whether it be geographically or interpersonally, emotionally. And so when I, I find that the process of it was really forced, I mean, it was saying forced to a level of collaboration that or made visible a level of collaboration that should be there anyway. But I felt like the starting point had to be listening and not, I don't know what it is, but I notice not that I am like going to translate it that that felt wrong too. But listening and finding how like each piece of the story shaped by people's views, their own stories, who they are, that meeting point started to like coalesce into a story. And what was interesting is I ended up writing a play that I wanted to write anyway, but I didn't know who was in it or what happened in it or anything. But there was something that struck like, oh, that is an idea that I had. And then we kind of built it from there where I would write a scene based on some activities we did. And then we'd share those pages, get to have a long talk of it about it. And often the scene that would end up happening would be based on the talk about the scene rather than the scene. So it was great to be able to just kind of have that luxury of time, but also the premise of it itself was like ensemble true to the name of the company and its vision. And so that was exciting to work that way. And really to think about like Dean is talking about identity plays and such and myself moving into how can I collaborate as a writer and how can I, as much as I love playwrights and myself, how can I, how does that role look different not just in this circumstance of an ensemble, but even just in where we're going as a society instead of the playwright, you know, you cannot change that word and all those sorts of things. Like what does that look like? Where does the written word that I've been come up with meet something devised felt like an into this sort of project? Great. So we have four writers in the room. So I have to ask if, as you kind of carve your path forward, if you kind of go towards the end of that path, just for fun sake and looking back, if you could look back and see what you have created, what you think you might create, what's kind of in your future, something that you're dying to do, but just haven't done yet. What does that look like to you? What would you say you put forward into the universe? I'm just curious as writers, what is it that you particularly are trying to respond to and put forward for us to see or take a look at or understand or examine that? What are you writing is really what I'm asking. And what would you like us to do? We don't know yet. No, but you're asking. But you're asking for an astral project in like 70 years. How much pressure? My God. You have password though. So if you look at that password and you kind of look at where you think you might be in the future, what does that all look like in total? I'm curious, Dean? I think for me, I can see that like I'm always changing form or something like there's something about a newness of form. So I'm always a little terrified of the next day, right? Cause I don't really have a set way that I do it. I'm definitely exploring things about, I think both intergenerational miscommunications but also I think I try to inhabit the people that my community would say are the enemy and try and understand whether anything they're saying about me, it's true. And then I think there's a way we can have a different kind of conversation. So, and then there's something about metaphor that I think my place are getting more metaphorical and perhaps more absurd if that's the right word. I'm not really sure. And someday I would like to write for puppets but I don't know if that thing like skates me a little too far away just to see what that is like. Just to know what can I do. Do you know why you might be veering towards metaphor? For example, do you have any idea? Yeah, I think there's something I'm interested in about meaning that it's not like a linear thing but layered on top of each other and a very satisfying theatrical experience to me is I don't fully know what's happening and then the bottom drops out and then I'm still processing as I go home. I don't easily understand what the experience was for me. And I think a linear plot driven thing, I get it. And I can like it or not like it but it feels less profound to me than something that I don't know rips apart my world in some way that I don't even, it's I guess cause it can bypass some part of your logical thinking and get to some other part of you that we're understanding lives that's sort of apart from just logic. Right, good. Dave? I guess what this question is kind of making me think of is this past semester in my dramatic writers workshop we focused a lot on writing place for youth and I wrote a play called The Dummy Class about special needs children in like the early 2000s. And as I was writing it like I'm not just conversing with a wider audience but also with my inner child who unfortunately endured quite a bit of bullying in school both due to his autism and his queerness, that was fun. And I think for in this play I was kind of able to communicate I hope with this play I'm able to communicate with both autistic and non-autistic children is like it's okay to like just be angry obviously don't hurt anyone but like if you need to like cry or scream or just like have some kind of major emotional release of rage or some sort of or joy or alleviation like it's okay. Like your feelings are valid and you are okay. That's kind of where I am with my writing right now but that could change next week, I don't know. Of course. Amina or Jeremy? Can you repeat this? So it's like where do we see our apps going ever like in the future or is that what you're like if you look at your work that you've written that's behind you work at work of the past and work that you know that you want to write in the future not a specific story just the kind of work that you like to write in the future. And can you summarize all that and say this is the one I want to put out in the universe? I mean I feel like I try to approach all of my work from a place of empathy and like trying to understand people like us and the world in which we live because I'm deeply fascinated by people and I work really hard to provide space for people who have not had space to have their stories told because I feel like the more you hear from different people the more nuanced your understanding of the world is. So I mean my work is changing too. I mean I think I've already been in a kind of metaphorical abstract place and I don't even know if that's a good thing necessarily because now it's becoming even more metaphorical abstract but I think it might just be the quarantine it's just making my writing really weird but so that's the grain of salt. Or like now I'm trying to write really cheerful plays about happy things which I don't do a lot. But I think for the future I just wanna keep growing and like Dean said I don't know necessarily when I sit down to write a new play like how to do it sometimes or like even though you've written many plays so I just wanna keep adding to my toolbox of stuff and figuring out new and interesting ways to ask the questions that I have about the world that we live because I never provide answers. It's just kind of like well here's a thing here's an access point for a conversation. Here's what I'm obsessing over and let's have a chat about it through this play. Sure that's great Jeremy. I know we're wrapping so I'll be brief on mine. I think I'm in a little bit of a time where yesterday might've had a different answer and tomorrow I might have a different answer. So today's answer is that it's less about what I write about but how I'm thinking this experience in itself of how we can sort of use theater to cross boundaries. How we can use theater to bring together as opposed to some of the, I guess I found myself narrowed in what I think of what theater is and is function is for that it's supposed to be this theater where I submit to this place that this person does it than that success and I'm thinking a lot more really I may have lost a little bit of why I came to it in the beginning and Spectrum Theater Ensemble helped recover that in the sense that like where can we use, where does the professional meet the community instead of these two things being separate? Where can theater fulfill things that are relevant or needed by community as opposed to making it and saying come and see us and maybe we'll give you free ticket if you can't afford it. And also just opening up the process to not just be me alone in my attic and then here's the play but bringing in wherever the play is about to be in the room and then to be in the audience and I don't know where those places are there's some places that make some other places but I think that's something I'm more interested in moving towards going forward. Sure, so we have just a little bit of time left and I just want to say if we were all smart we would have invested in Zoom technology before this whole pandemic because we would be very wealthy people right now. But I do and that actually is part of my question to you which is, you know, look what we're doing we're having a conference through Zoom, right? And I don't know about you but every day I get another notice of a reading or a production of some sort that's gonna happen on Zoom and you will in part be creating these new plays or if not for Spectrum the next company you're working with will either be in rehearsal on Zoom or in production on Zoom or a reading on Zoom. How are you doing well with this or is this just founding to you? Oh, I'm ready, I'm ready fiction. I'm sorry. Stop, Terry. Any more fiction. I know, it sounds like a horror story. It's a horror story? Well, I think, I mean, it's hard because I think theater is, you know it's a form of storytelling so we're still telling stories. I just think theater people or people who are into theater or people who have an interest in theater they like being in the same room together and having like that kind of tactile thing and like what about dance and music and how does that translate into, I don't know I think it's very early for me to sort of wrap my mind around the future of theater and what that will be if it's going to be on Zoom. You bet. Which I hope not. I mean, it's fine, like Zoom is fine but I hope that we are not living on Zoom as a theatrical community forever. Yes, chef. I definitely agree in that I definitely don't think Zoom is a replacement for theater but I went to a reading that a colleague of mine did last weekend and knew we had a bunch of other colleagues come and see it and it was just so great to at least kind of feel like you're in the same room as everyone. Obviously it's not the same, it will never be the same but I do think that there is a capability of having plays on Zoom for people from all over the country to come together and watch a work in progress or a reading of something. So I do think there are opportunities to kind of foster and build like a tighter-knit community across the country through Zoom that I don't, geography kind of prevents in many ways but you're being in person. I mean I watched the 72 miles to go from roundabout theater company recently and since I'm in Arizona I wouldn't be able to go see that. So I think there is a silver lining to it but I do agree that I hope Zoom is not a permanent replacement. So listen you guys, I'm getting the wrap up. I just wanna say thank you all for caring. A small part of your story we certainly look forward to the work that you're doing for Spectrum and also the work well beyond that. So again, many thanks for sharing. Thank you Gary. You're welcome. Thank you Gary. You're welcome. Thank you Gary. Clay, are you with us? Hi. And yes, I did know what Gary said to all the playwrights. Thank you so much for engaging this conversation and thank you Gary for moderating it for us. So nice to see all your faces and I'll hopefully talk to you very soon. So we're going to take a quick break but be back at 340 with another spotlight