 I'm Grifter. Nice to meet all of you. Let's go around and say our names. Let's start over here. Take a little bit of time in the talk. Obviously this talk is on dumpster diving. I'm glad to see so many people are interested in rooting around in garbage. Thanks for coming out early as well. I'm tired and irritable so if your cell phone is on shut it off unless it has a cool ringtone in which case we can all enjoy. So let's begin. The dumpster diver. Basically what this little section will cover is what dumpster diving is, who does it, things like that. What is dumpster diving? If you can't figure it out by the name, I'm sorry. It's climbing in and out of dumpsters, not literally diving for safety's sake. But basically there's different types of dumpster divers. I've run into people who like to eat out of the trash on numerous occasions telling me how wonderful it is that they can go to the supermarket and oh that's expired over there so they go and tell the manager and that night they go get it out of the trash. If that's your, you know, you're into that, go nuts. This talk will more cover finding things like documents, obviously, passwords, login accounts, things like that. Oh, before I even get started if you're going to start yelling at me from the back or something about how ethical this is and how I'm horrible and I'm promoting identity theft and you know, I don't want to hear it so shut up. I'm not promoting identity theft, I don't know anyone who's had their identity stolen. How many people know someone who's had their identity stolen? There's a couple of you. Because they're on, I guess that doesn't really count, you guys are all online. How many people know someone in real life, you know? Liars. Congratulations. Apparently he was at the Ninja Networks party last night. Well, let's see. I'll go soap. Why go dumpster diving? Because it's fun. It is quite enjoyable. I like doing it. It's a good time getting together with friends going out and seeing what you can find. Sometimes you do find cool stuff. I've found all kinds of cool things, weird stuff, things like that. But from a security standpoint, this should definitely be part of your security policies. Physical security, being that this is the physical security track, is extremely important. It doesn't matter how well configured your firewall is. It's like the jink shirt that says there's no patch for human stupidity, the social engineering one. Same deal. You throw away your passwords, it doesn't do you any good. You can configure your network. You turn blue in the face, but if you're leaving your root passwords on a sticky note and chucking them in the garbage, then you're leaving yourself wide open. Who does it? You, apparently. Yes, it's the first one. You gotta clap for that. One of many, I'm sure. For those of you who don't know what the hell that was, on the scavenger hunt list it says streak through grifters talk. So, good times. Lots of man ass today. You should do this with your, I'm like, oh, get it out of my head. He was removing them like here. All kinds of fun. You should check your own physical security, obviously. Make sure that you don't have these holes in your system, and they are indeed just that. All right. For those going out dumpster diving, whether you're going to your network, or, I mean, like your company or someone else's if that's what you're into, then this section will cover what you should wear. No brainer, dark clothing. Now, I have gotten several emails from people saying, oh, no, if you wear black, or you wear, you know, dark blue and try to blend in, then you're admitting that you're doing something wrong because you're trying to hide. If you want people seeing you climbing in and out of a dumpster at 2 a.m., wear white. But, you know, it's not only black because you don't want people to see you, but sometimes you get nasty stuff. So, dark clothing. No flashy logos. Things like, for example, I use as an example the DEF CON 9 shirt that has like silver print on it. I mean, it's silver. It's sparkles. It's reflective. You know, anything that's got something like that. Leave the WWF wrestling shirt at home, you know, because it's eye-catching. If, you know, somebody looks over and you're wearing just black, they might not notice you, but if you have, you know, some huge wrestler flexing on the back of your shirt, then they may take notice a little more. Something that I like to do on occasion is, it says, if you must have logos, support your police. You can get one of those like NYPD, you know, at post 9-11. You can find them anywhere for like five bucks. A cop stops you and you happen to be wearing, like, you're like, I love the police. You got, thank you for stopping. You know, like, I'm a cop groupie. Footwear. Obviously, you're getting in and out of dumpsters. You don't know what's going to be in there. There could be boards with nails, glass, rabid monkeys. So, wear something with thick soles in case you step on a nail. You know, hiking boots style, combat boots. Yeah, combat boots are hard to find in this crap. You know, Doc Martin style stuff, soles about, yeah, thick. Things that are disposable. Old clothes. Things that you don't mind having somebody throw up on because some of the stuff that you run into while leaning over the edge, you know, if you go out and take a look at some of the edges of a dumpster, it's a science project right there. Any kids, yeah, anyone have kids in elementary school? You can have them take swabs of what's on the side of a dumpster. Put it in petri dishes, that would be interesting. They're like feces. So, you know, thick pants again. You don't want to go catching yourself on something sharp and tearing your leg open. I mean, it's fun to go in there and find, you know, all kinds of, you know, people's Docs and stuff like that and passwords and accounts. But if you walk away with a gash in the side of your leg, then, you know, it kind of takes a little bit of the fun out of it. What to bring. This will cover when you go. Obviously, he is holding a brain. Take your brain, common sense and a flashlight. So, different style flashlights. I personally use the compact one. I have a small one that's got a wrist strap on it. I put on the wrist strap. I'm good to go. I like that because if you're in the dumpster or something, sometimes things happen, you might drop your flashlight. Having the wrist strap helps. I know some people use mag lights. One thing that mag lights are good for, not that I'm condoning going into lock dumpsters or anything like that, but if you've ever seen the dumpsters that have the bars that go over the top of the plastic lids, like there's two lids that come down, well, you can pull those up pretty easily. But it's a bitch getting those things back down. Again, hypothetically, I have a dumpster in my backyard and I practice on it all the time. I'm an expert. Do not try this at home. You can get the lid usually going edge of it in and then you put the flashlight under the bar and under the lid and then slide it with a nice sturdy metal flashlight and it'll pop back into place and everything is fine. Let's see, what else does... I had somebody tell me that a head lamp is great because they don't have to use their hands. One of the big things that I obviously don't want to be seeing, most people probably don't want to be seeing, so I always say keep your flashlight below the rim. It's amazing how much it cuts down on the light just keeping it below the rim of the dumpster. So obviously having a head lamp on your head would put off quite a bit of light. Does anybody in here use head lamps while dumpster diving? Red filter. Red filter on a head lamp. There you go. And then military style flashlight. I'm sure you've seen them somewhere in your travels, but again, they come with red filters, so even better. But they're slightly hooked, so you can also use it not only as a flashlight, but if you need to grab something and pull it closer to you, you can use that. There's a couple of us who usually go out whenever we go dumpster diving and everybody... Oh my gosh. Oh man. Was he completely hairless? What was that? I swear I saw two bald heads. Trunk space, obviously, if you're not taking your car this doesn't apply to you, but having quite a bit of trunk space, sometimes you'll just hit a company or somewhere that decided to purge everything they had in filing cabinets going back to 1980s, whatever, and they've got their customer records for years in there, and you're like, I want to take this home and read it because I don't have a girlfriend. So trunk space, obviously, a good thing to have when carting large amounts of crap back to your house so that at some point later you can burn it. You laugh, but we really do. A duffel bag, if you're not using a car, then take a duffel bag with you. Actually, one of the bags that I brought my stuff to DEFCON with is a duffel bag that I found in a dumpster. It was brand new, it had the tags on it and it was full of porn. So it wasn't good porn, it was like scat porn. Thank you. A duffel bag, something to carry your stuff back with you when you're done. Obviously, if you're on foot, you're a little more stealthy because you don't have to worry about a car and you can walk around corners quickly without throwing headlight beams everywhere. A large stick, isn't that great? A large stick. I never bring a stick with me. What is the term for this call? Does anyone know what it, they're actually like, the what's what? There you go, I don't know what that is. There you go, an axe handle with no axe, something like that. It's something that you can hit bags with to make sure there's nothing sharp or poke them and prod them to see if it's just paper or whatever. If you have an axe handle lying around, take it with you. Some people take curtain rods or a broom handle with a nail through it so you can again hook things. Maybe you could tape your military style flashlight to the end of it. What's that? Wooden dowel from a hardware store. Wooden dowel from a hardware store. So, obviously, many types of large sticks. You're like, let's go through them all. I'm sure it is. Cardboard boxes. This is something that we'll touch on in a little bit, but cardboard boxes are good to bring with you in case you get stopped by, let's say you're in an industrial or business complex and the security or the police approach you and say, what are you doing? You can say, I'm helping my friend move and I am such a nice guy that he needed boxes and I'm out here looking for them. So, not only are you going out of your way for a friend, but you're not doing anything sketchy. Again, common sense. Don't be stupid. What do you say to that? Either you have it or you don't. So, going on. The rules. This slide, that's too bad. The slides aren't at the end of each section but that's supposed to be, like I'll talk about, like people say, oh yeah, I go dumpster diving alone. Well, okay, if leaning over the edge of a dumpster at two in the morning by yourself in some alleyway sounds safe and exciting to you, have a good time, you know, but really get a hobby and some friends. But that's supposed to be, I don't know, like Rufus from Bum Fights creeping up on somebody leaning over the side of a dumpster with his pants around his ankles, so. I'll let you absorb that for a minute. What's he going to do to him? The question was the type of ladders like that you would possibly throw out a window on a second store or something if you were trying to get away from a fire or something like that or a rope ladder, something that you could hook on the side of a dumpster and then climb up over the other side. Am I correct? In my experience, I've never not been able to get in a dumpster because it was too high up. I don't know, I am 6'2", so maybe I have a little bit of an advantage. But usually most dumpsters, they have, you know, where the dumpster, where the truck, where the garbage truck will come and put it in the forks and lift it up, good footholds. And some of the larger ones actually have ladders built on the side of them, so. Leave it as it was. So being that you're at DEF CON, I'm sure maybe like 10% of you are hackers. So you already know that leave it as it was. You don't want anyone knowing you were there. Don't go and, you know, obviously if the dumpster, hypothetically, damn it, hypothetically, if the dumpster was locked, make sure it's locked when you leave. Cutting a lock off or a chain off and not the best idea. Obviously someone is going to know you're there. Probably the person who comes to unlock it in the morning. Leaving the lids open when the lids were down. Some dumpsters are fenced in if you leave the fence open. Again, this probably goes in with common sense. It's just like, don't leave garbage around the outside of it because a place that could be, you know, a great source of information is now no longer that because they've decided if it wasn't locked up before, they're locking it now because they know someone has taken an interest in what they're throwing away. And there really is a lot of interesting things that people throw away. Again, don't make a mess. Go throwing stuff all over the place. You know, when someone's rooting in your trash outside your house, do you want them throwing it all over the place? Probably not. Again, going back to what I said before, keeping your flashlight below the rim, it really does put off an amazing amount of light if you're, you know, as soon as it comes up above the rim, next time you go out or if it's the first time you go out, just, you know, do a quick check. You'll know immediately what I'm talking about. Use handles when possible. A little bit of an article I did for 2600 on dumpster diving I put in there, you know, it's a lot harder to find someone, you know, like it's a lot easier to be like, yeah, some guy named, you know, Mike or Chris or whatever was in my dumpster last night and, you know, so we're looking for someone with this name that was wearing this, that was here at this time and then it is to try to find Super Ultra Ninja Killer unless, of course, you're aim-savvy with a handle like that. Don't just dive in. Again, please do not take the name literally. There is quite a bit of dangerous objects in dumpsters. Some dumpsters, you'll open them up and they'll be full of sheet metal. Not exactly something you want to be diving head-first into. Unbelievable amounts of broken glass, like just pools of broken glass laying at the, you know, a couple inches thick at the bottom of dumpsters. Don't just dive in. Again, I said earlier, thick sole shoes, things like that. When you throw yourself over the side, you don't want to come down on a nail and, you know, like, if you saw hackers and you saw them, like, they cut open the fence and they run up to it and they just hurl themselves over the side. What if there was a stick? What if a dumpster diver was there before you and left his large stick? You know, like, now you're in trouble. Like, my lung. You're going to have to go dumpster diving at a medical facility to get yourself another one. Again, if maybe that's what you're into and you jump into a dumpster and there's needles in there, un-good. Going solo again. You saw Rufus sneaking up on the guy and the dumpster on the slide earlier. You don't want to be that guy. So I don't recommend it. I don't know. Maybe you're big like this guy over here and you can handle yourself, but I am not. The cops. It's inevitable. You're going to run into the police at some point. Is that cool or no? Stand up, sir. Come on. We can see you. I can see you. We heard it. Come on. Everybody clap for the ringtone. Think about it, sir. Everybody's like, holy shit. He wasn't kidding. Do not run. I don't know what laws are in every state in the country or maybe another country if you're somewhere else in the world, but in Utah I don't believe, at least I've never been arrested for it, so I'll just keep believing that until I have to post bail. But running away, not the best indicator of I'm not doing anything wrong. So just hang out, say how's it going, looking for cardboard boxes. If someone's pulling on the gelet I'm in, you're like, hey, I'm trying to give a speech here. Oh. We'll wait till they come in that door. Everybody get your cameras ready for when the next one comes through. You probably don't want to. So I apologize for making them stop. Honestly, whatever your political leanings are, if you hate the police and you want to make a statement, go ahead but you're going to jail, not because you were dumpster diving, but because you're an asshole and he can put you there. So you can just say, hey, oh, I'm sorry to stop you. I'm forgetting these cardboard boxes. Again, the best. Talk to them. They're normal people too. Most of them. And again, you're probably not breaking any laws. Find out in your state if you are. Don't call me up and be like, Grifter, you said that it was okay and I need bail money. Come and get me. Don't allow them to search your car. Again, you're probably not doing anything wrong. So if they're like, oh, can I look in your car and they look in your trunk and it's like, why do you have 8,000 social security numbers and all of these people's addresses? I thought that guy was going to streak through, sorry. I'm like, I'm all jumpy now. There's naked people everywhere. So just say no thanks. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just getting some cardboard boxes for my friends. So there's no reason for you to search the car if you want to get crazy go nuts. This comes out of the book, The Art and Science of Dumpster Diving by John Hoffman. I know my civil liberties and I don't believe I've done anything wrong. Therefore, I don't think it is necessary. While it sounds ridiculous, I don't know, you know, because then you're talking to him and he knows you're an idiot and then all of a sudden, boom, this quote comes out of your mouth. Boxes for my friend. Can I look in your car? I know my civil liberties and Grifter said it was all right. Call him. So, you know, just be cool and you probably won't end up in any trouble but if you need to, you can go ahead and use that. Good places to die. I will let you read. For those of you who will be listening to the MP3 of this on defconn.org later, it's a slide that says... No, I'm not doing that. But... So computer repair shops. Great places to go diving. You can find all kinds of machines. Like usually they're older, but, I mean, your nerds figure something out. I mean, we can figure stuff out to do with old computers. It's like, I've got it running my toaster. It's excellent. It's a Pentium 75 and 64 megs of RAM. So computer repair shops good. I mean, I found all kinds of stuff. We've gotten like, you know, four, five, six machines at a time. Sometimes they get a shipment and stuff and they'll rip through, like, you know, a pallet of boxes and maybe one or two of the boxes with a processor and it, you know, gets thrown away. Look for the shrink wrap still on it. But, and some parts aren't broken. Some computer repair shops are just lazy and they're like, hmm, I can fix it, but I'd rather have you upgrade. So it ends up in their dumpster or sitting back behind their building next to their basketball net that's been there for the last two years and you wonder who uses it. Hypothetically. Electronic stores, same reason. Found all kinds of good stuff behind electronic stores. Now, you know, you're not just talking about, you know, computers. There's like, television and things like that and if you're into shooting things, old TVs. Good times. Old monitors as well. Car audio shops, you know, speakers, amps, things like that. Again, more stuff. All of which we have found. Cellular suppliers. One of mine and several other favorite places to dive is behind a cellular distributor and a business complex and they have the habit of throwing away cases of cell phone faceplates and they do some satellite stuff too so they have, you know, smart cards just thrown in the dumpster and, you know, one particular place they threw away all of their customer records for the last year. Still in the FedEx envelope, you know, just the top was cut and they threw it in the trash and we were like, woohoo! So, all kinds of good stuff. Satellite stores, again. If there's old dishes back there, there's all kinds of things you can do with old dishes. I'm sure you have heard about, you know, making wireless antennas out of prime-star dishes and things like that or if you happen to catch old schools, satellite, TV, technology, you know, that there are several uses for satellite dishes, even if you don't have a receiver. Make your own. Flower shops, I know that seems odd, but, you know, if flowers even start to wilt the slightest bit, they either have to discount them greatly or just throw them away, so if you are a huge pimp and you have all kinds of girls running around and you just can't afford those flower bills anymore, I guess you're already with like eight girls and your morals won't keep you from giving them garbage flowers. I told you I was irritable. Bookstores. Hypothetically, if someone wants to jump behind a Barnes & Noble and get in the dumpster, they would find all kinds of books with their covers ripped off. You're not supposed to have those books, so don't go get them. But they're there. And magazines, for that matter. If you see them placing out new magazines, the odds are that all of those old magazines will be in the dumpster that night. Don't go get them. Business complexes. Did I spell that right? It just looks odd. So business complexes, like I said, that cellular place was in a business complex. There are, you know, office supply chains, things like that. It's great because that's where you'll find all your, you know, telling you every time someone walks past the door, I'm like, they're coming in. So that's where you're going to find most of your, you know, customer records, things like that. Again, I don't promote identity theft. What we do with the stuff that we find is usually that if there's an address and a phone number and stuff like that, you can call someone up and say, hi, you do business with so-and-so and they're like, who is this? And you're like, is this insert social security number here? And then say, yeah, that was in their trash. You should probably talk to them about that. Click. Now, you know, am I an asshole because I think they should shred their documents and personal information or should people know that their private data is just being thrown away where anyone wearing black clothes with a large stick and a flashlight can sign it and too much to do at one in the morning and a very understanding wife. Industrial areas, same thing, a lot of, you know, corporate documents, things like that and manufacturing plants or you'll find whatever it is they're manufacturing, there's a place in Utah that makes, you know, basketball hoops and rims and stuff like that and they have an entire dumpster that on occasion is full of basketball rims so if you want to just hang on rims all day then go there. So, obviously, you know, I was going to bring stuff up here and be like, look at all these people's docks but then I was like, that's probably not the best idea. But, um, post-it notes. One of my favorite things to find in dumpsters are post-it notes which is why I dedicate a section to them. They're easy to see. People write everything on them and I personally have never seen a shredded post-it note. So, sure they ball them up this big but their fluorescent pink or blue, you can see it. Oh. ADP payroll login. Excellent. So, again, often overlooked and rarely shredded. So, again, easy to see. All kinds of information, you know, I mean, when you're sitting at your desk and somebody calls you up on the phone, they're like, oh, I need you to do this or hey, we just changed the password on that but you write it down real quick and then you transfer it to whatever journal, log, your machine, whatever, and you take the post-it note and you crumble it and you throw it in the garbage. And it ends up in the dumpster where we get it. I already did that. Again, account names, passwords, like I said, like I have found companies payroll account and passwords on post-it notes and... Hypothetically. Hypothetically? No, I found them. I didn't use them. I found it, though. Phone numbers for important people like the CEO's cell phone number, something like that, if you want to call them up and tell them that you found the account name and password in the dumpster, go right ahead. Meetings, like, you know, if you were doing, you know, a security audit on the company and you needed to know when people were going to be all meeting in one room so that they weren't in their office so you could get in there and do whatever physical audit that you're doing or just, you know, hack them from their own machine and knowing that they're going to be in a meeting at 12 o'clock on Thursday. Good to know. Important dates. Again, things like if you're doing an audit, if you know that it's the CEO's birthday one day or their... Oh, God. I love you, Mr. I love you, baby, yeah! Go! All right, we saw you. Ladies and gentlemen, hi, wizard. Oh, he touched me! I'm sorry, this speech is over. I have to go take a shower. Is there anything on my back? So, this section will cover ethics again. I do not, you know, condone in any way identity theft. I think it's a bunch of crap and people who do it annoy me. So, you're already kind of riding a fine line being in somebody else's. Now he's getting dressed in the back and sticking around. It sounded like it was interesting whatever it was he was talking about. So, you're already riding the fine line again. I've never been arrested for it, but you could be, so you don't know what the laws are in your area, then be careful with what you're doing. If you have all those documents in your trunk or if you have a log full of all the stuff that you've found, before I forget, I said log, if you wanted to get insane about your dumpster diving and going to different locations on certain days so that you know that they're, like if you know they emptied the trash on Tuesday, then you go Monday night so that you can go find all the stuff that's in there. So, if you wanted to keep like a small notebook in your glove box or something that says, the cellular place that doesn't know how to shred things, Tuesday, then go right ahead and do that. Again, I'd shoot. There's, there you go. This guy says, the question was, is there any way to find out when the, like when it is that they empty the garbage and this gentleman over here said, call the garbage disposal company and social engineer them. So, you can probably just call and say, when do you do this? Or you could call up and say, hey, I'm with this company and you guys didn't come empty. When are you coming to empty the dumpster? It's so full and they're like, we just emptied it yesterday and you're like, thank you. So, again, identity theft is crap, don't do it. Industrial espionage is crap, don't do it. You will go to jail for a long, long time and a man will hold on to you like that guy that grabbed me on stick. Hold on a second. I gotta get in my zen space again. So, what can you do about it? Basically, just educating people to the fact that you're not there to do, you're not there doing any damage, you're just there because you have an odd hobby and you maybe are a little bit voyeuristic or something, you want to see what it is that a company is doing or when the CEO's birthday is or his anniversary, so he's away from his desk. Protect your privacy. So how do you keep yourself from having your important documents taken from you and ended up in somebody's trunk or living room floor while they're reading through it? Basically, when it comes down to companies out there having your information, there really isn't much you can do about it unless, let's say, you go dumpster dive that company, which, I mean, I know that every place that you go and give them your credit card and they swipe it through, you're not going to jump in and be like, they shred that up, but maybe you do, maybe you have more time than I do. But, obviously, how to protect your privacy, shred it up, you burn it, whatever, just make it go away. And most people, I know myself, I see something shredded. I'm just like, all right, leave it alone. I'm not going to take some tape and try to put it together. Again, I don't have that much time. Also, something with shredding. Sometimes I have seen places that while they shred, and it's great that they're shredding stuff, they shred it so that it goes along like the lines with the, like not again. So it's like, I can read a sentence, like a full sentence and, oh, here's the continuation of that sentence and you can put that together a whole lot easier than you can a bunch of random letters. So shred it twice if you have to. There's shredding services out there for if you have the money for that or if you are the person in charge of getting rid of the documents. The security field is like, now we're in charge of spam and then once your boss hears about this, you're going to be in charge of the garbage too. I'm sorry, you and the janitor are hanging out. But you can hire shredding services that will actually come in with a big truck and they have a huge shredder in the back and they take all your paper and they just grind it all up and you're like, you guys are the best. Now some of them cart it away and take it back to a factory or a warehouse somewhere and they shred it up there and do whatever it is and recycle it. But I would say if you're looking for a shredding service or somebody, if you're really paranoid, get one of the services that does it right there because I have heard instances of people hiring shredding services that come and they get the stuff and they take it in the truck and they drive away and then they take it back and they go through it and see if there's anything cool. Maybe you don't want to be a dumpster diver, you just want to start a company like that. You're like, thanks. Yeah, there you go. So, magnetic media, you know, Floppies, does anyone use Floppies anymore? I guess they do. Do they? I don't know. Optical media as well. Everyone has a CD burner now. Everyone has to have one in the office. So, the copy of the CD that I bought or the one that I downloaded off the Gazaga and it's the best and here I burned this for you and now that I have one, I need to give those files to so-and-so, so I'll burn it and I'll give it to them and they put it on their computer and they throw it in the garbage without snapping it into a million pieces. So, now you're like, wow, this is a lot lighter than all of the paper I would have had to carry. Thanks for buying that CD burner for them. You guys are the best. Again, this should definitely be part of your security policies. Like I said earlier, you can spend all the time in the world configuring your network to your heart's content, making sure everybody's doing what they should be when they're sitting behind their computer, but if when they get their password, they write it on a sticky note and you've told them you're not allowed to stick it to the bottom of your keyboard and cut the shit. So, they take it and they throw it in the garbage after they write it down and stick it somewhere else or whatever, they save it to their desktop. Then they walk away from the computer during lunch or when they're at that meeting that you found the note about. So, make sure that this part of physical security is in your security policies. You need it, whether you realize it or not. There are people out there that are just looking for expired milk and there's people out there who just want to read something better than a trash novel or something like that. People's personal information or company documents. Get them off. So, I'm ending my slides. Many thanks to Proto. Stand up, Proto! Stand up, fool. For drawing the slides for me, the pictures. And to geeksindicate.net of which Proto is part of. I have some of their stickers. What? Okay, look, I'll let you stand up. Do you want to come up here now? Do you want the microphone? Shut up! And thanks to all of these guys for helping out in various ways with DEF CON and getting things set up and for going dumpster diving with me and for telling me how ridiculous it is and that they're going to be the only ones here, but there's like, you know, some people I don't know, so that helps. So, I will just say if anybody has any questions about, you know, dumpster diving in general, actually I do consulting for numerous corporations and businesses throughout the Wasatch Front in Utah. Well, most of our clients are educated in the fact that they need to be shredding things and stuff like that, so originally, you know, when I got the whatever client, I didn't jump in their dumpster and then say, hey, you know, I'd like to offer my services because that would be, then you're not riding the fine line anymore. I didn't repeat his question. Anyway, I'll repeat the rest of them, but it was like, what is the success rate of, you know, finding things on my own clients and stuff like that. And like I said, they're more educated, so they tend to be better about their physical security. The question is, what do I do with the stuff after I found it? Some of it, you know, I just read it because it's interesting. It gives you an insight into the way that the company runs and I like to know how things work, so I want to know how the companies that I deal with or that are operating in my local area function. So after I'm done with it, though, this is like two years in a row, I mentioned trash fires, but there's a group of us that get together at one guy's house that usually on the weekends or whatever and we call them trash fires because that's basically what we do is, you know, we burn trash, it's all paper and like, you know, obviously wood, it's a bonfire, but then any of the document stuff and we do what the company didn't do in the first place, which is get rid of it, so. Any more questions? All right, hold on, this guy had one right here. You got Ohms, dude. Hold on a second, let's let this guy get one first. Okay, then it doesn't. I have not. Have you? Okay, the question was, have I ever experimented using like UV LEDs in my Maglight and I have not, but you were saying, and try to speak up so the microphone will lean towards you. Yeah, I've been playing with that for like half a couple months and I was like, would you like to play? And a lot of people say, would you stay a little closer? A good call. So he said, like he said, if anybody didn't hear him in the back or if the audio didn't pick up on it, using the UV light helps, you know, make certain things stick out. So, you know, posted notes and stuff like that or interns, sweaters. Oops. Sorry. Anyway, back there. The question was, how do you deal with a company that says that they remove your, that they do not, I didn't even know how to word it. What do they do, what do you do if they tell you that they're, that they do shred your data and then they don't because they don't want to pay for the shredding service or whatever and they just throw it away? Like you're asking, how do you deal with something? Well, I believe the question is like I said, like it's what do you do if they're saying that they're getting rid of it or their policy states that that's what they'll do and then they don't follow through on the policy? Most policies have, you know, an escalation type system worked out to deal with something like that. So, if you work for the company and you know that they're not following through on the practices and you're the security officer who's in charge of that, then obviously you escalate it through whatever means necessary to get those people educated or can. As a customer, stop going there. I don't, there's not really much you can do if they say, yeah, we're going to shred it and then they don't and you can, you know, let other people know that what they do with their, with your private data is, you know, not what they, they're misrepresenting themselves is what I'm trying to say. I'll get you next. So, again, like there are things where that are, oh wait, hold on one second. I'm going to answer that but who just answers, who just asks questions stand up real quick because I'm going to give you stuff like in a minute. So, you and that guy back there and you and then you didn't want it anymore so you don't get anything but. So, again, the laws are kind of, kind of sketchy on that being that yes it is and the question is like what, how do you deal with things like hardware? Let's say somebody, like a company throws away a bunch of machines, like I said a computer repair shop puts something in the dumpster and then you go get it. Well, there have been several cases I should have written down what they were where the police have used people's trash in order to help convict them. So, while, again, it may vary from geographical area to geographical area, it's, there has been precedent set that says it's okay to go and take things out of people's garbage. Again, if it's locked or in an enclosure of some kind and you go in there, you're obviously trespassing. So, but, again, you ride a fine line when you do anything like that. You just kind of have to be aware that, that, you know, there are risks involved in doing, in practicing dumpster diving or whatever and that you should just well educate yourself beforehand so you don't end up in jail. There was one guy behind me who I said I would go. The question is, if you go to a company that doesn't share information and stuff like that, would it, when you're saying that you, why not go ahead and make a website that says here's what I found. These people don't tread there. This is what was on there. Because that's rude. No, I don't know. Because you're obviously, if you're posting something and you're posting internal documents and things like that and you're, oh yeah, go right ahead. Yeah, like if you want to post the names of the companies. Oh, have I ever seen anyone injured while dumpster diving was the question? Again, I talked about safety and it is a large concern to remain safe. I don't know. You planted that question. Yeah, we were diving behind one of these, it wasn't a computer repair shop, but a hardware supplier and my buddy old schools was in the dumpster and one of the other guys we were with, was holding the lid for him and a car drove by and he freaked out and dropped the lid on his head. And he was like, blah! And I was like, oh, that's his neck. That you broke. No, he didn't break his neck, but obviously you don't want to drop the lid on your friend's head because then you'll be going solo and Rufus will get you. We're diving here, sir. All right. Okay, I will. I have to give stuff away. All right, I'm just going to start throwing stuff towards the people who ask questions. So, the question was, though, that was using gloves-wise, is it, you know, do I prefer latex or leather? And... Sheepskin. So, I mean, I don't wear gloves personally. I mean, there are people who do, you know, wear gloves, I'm sure. I'm pretty safe when I go, so I'm not worried about getting cut on things because I don't just grab stuff or I don't just dive in or whatever, but yeah, you do sometimes get crap on your hand. That's right. You don't know where that dumpster been and every time you jump... Hey, every time you jump in a dumpster, you're jumping in a dumpster with everyone else who's ever jumped in that dumpster. What are the worst places to go for drawing attention from the police or security? There you go. Precinct dumpsters. Anywhere that's really high-traffic and lit up is about the only thing. I mean, I guess when you pull up, when you're in a car, when you pull up, shut your headlights, you know. Common sense, again. You don't want to draw undue attention to yourself, so... I know I'm done. It's all right, dude. I got three more seconds, all right. So, okay, that's it. If you have any questions, I'll be over it in the vendor area after the talk, so... Okay, I'm throwing stuff. Jason, Jason. They want stickers. They're right. They want stickers. I'm just gonna throw them.