 Welcome to the one March 2021 Town of Berlin Select Board meeting. I'm the new Town Administrator Vince Conti and we'll be hosting this meeting tonight with the assistance of Mr. Tom Badowski and I'd just like to thank you all for joining. With that I will turn it over to the Select Board Chair, Mr. Town. Interesting opening. Good evening everyone I'd like to call the March 1st 2021 regularly scheduled Select Board meeting for the Town of Berlin to order. With us is Flo Smith, John Quinn, Justin Lawrence, myself, also Vince Conti our Town Administrator, Tom Badowski, our Assistant Town Administrator, and Diane Isabel Town Treasurer. Additions or changes to the agenda, Vince? Yes I have two small changes. There's one additional liquor license to be added for Dollar General at 1755 U.S. Route 302 and I would like to remove the minutes from February 1st until we've, till I've completed the requested revisions and get that review out for review. Okay any public comment? I have a question or point of order. What's that Peter? Yes it is. Yeah I'm sorry I didn't identify myself my picture is not there but I am. My question is when we come to the item for vast Irish Hill will we have an opportunity will voters have an opportunity to speak? Well we try to take and keep lines of communications open I would think so. Okay I asked that question only because at the February 1st meeting I did comment along with a number of other people at the outset of the meeting and when it came time for the board to discuss the item my mic was off not on my end so I would like to think that there will be opportunity for people to comment if it's appropriate. Okay. Any other public comment? Yes this is Wynton Goodrich I'd like to weigh in on the snowmobile process with vast. That'll be at 745. Okay yeah all right I'll come back on at that time then. Oh you don't have to leave you can stay. Well I'll stay but I'll I'll mute my mic and yeah and my picture. Okay any other public comment? Very good hearing none. Treasurer's report I am. I don't have anything this time. Okay. Craig Collier's permit for working the right of way. He's looking for basically a curb cut permit out on the Jones Brook Road for construction project that he has in place. I believe I sent the document out to everyone. I move approval for the curb cut permit for Tre Collier on Jones Brook Road. And I second. Any further discussion? Hearing none all those in favor? Hi. Hi. Motion carried. You're all set then Tre. Let's see here. Liquor licenses then? We have one for Dollar General and CVS Pharmacy. Do I have a motion? I make the motion to approve Dollar General's 1755 U.S. Route 302. Liquor license and also CVS Pharmacy. You're second? I'll second that. Any further discussion? All those in favor? Motion carries. Okay Vince the CRS Community Rating System. Yes I'll talk a little bit about this and then Tom may want to jump in to add some more. This is basically the community rating system. We're currently at a class nine. We have the possibility to move up to a class eight. What that has to do with is the flood hazard insurance for the residents. And what that change in class would mean dollar wise to the residents is currently at a class nine going to a class eight it would give an additional $7,477 savings in their premiums overall. So that would result in about a $15,000 savings to our residents moving from a class nine to a class eight. In order to do that there was a document that was sent out as well that Tom had actually put together that's a roadmap on what's required for a timeline to get there for this year. Meaning May 3rd would be the deadline to be able to get there that we'd have to achieve. And the biggest probably portion and Tom jump in anytime at this point you're comfortable there would need to be from the town one change in the language in our zoning ordinance to help us qualify for that. That's correct Vincent. It was sent out in advance under section 2202H1G under the flood hazard overlay district. We would need to add language at least one foot above base flood elevation and how we become eligible is that the state of Vermont has GIS mapping capability and they've offered to map some of our areas that may show up in the flood prone area. But if there are no structures there we can get credit for having those as conservation areas. And so right now there are 34 structures participating in the program out of a excuse me yeah 34 out of 161. The whole idea behind community rating system is to try to make flood insurance more affordable and the end goal is to save the $7,500 that Vincent mentioned on the 34 properties but get more of the 161 properties to participate. So the what the select board would would really need to look at the planning commission has reviewed this and the planning commission is is agreeable to their upfront piece of this. The select board would have to hold a special meeting on what's the date April 12th uh hearing to to hear this that's in between your meetings so that's what the select board would need to commit to to make this May 3rd deadline. Tom what's the downside to doing this? I don't think of any John it's um the reason the the town doesn't have the software or the hardware to do the GIS mapping it's something that the state approached us on it's I think it's a win-win I don't think there's any downside for the town of Portland. Is this the agency of natural resources? It is yes Ned Swanberg from A&R. Okay what it does it have potential to negatively affect any of the Berlin residents depending on where and how their house sits? Not that I'm aware of participation in in flood insurance as a voluntary. I guess if you have a FEMA loan you're required to to put your to participate in flood insurance but if you're not participating in a you know federally funded loaning process you are you're not required to purchase flood insurance. The land that's going to be put into conservation you said? It's not conservation it's not conservation Brad it's it's uh showing to FEMA and and their insurance company ISO that there are no structures in the areas from our zoning regulations because we have setbacks to streams and such yes they did our zoning regulations it's those setbacks it's it's not it's not a conservation person. Oh well let's have a a motion to pursue the community rating system. Take the motion to proceed with the community rating system as presented tonight. Any further discussion? All those in favor? Motion carries uh Fisher Road Colbert Vins. Tom you're probably better equipped to speak to this one than I am as well at this point. It's just an update uh from the last meeting the town has applied to the state um insurance bank we so we're waiting for the final vote tally at tomorrow's town meeting may recall there's a valid initiative requesting town support of that project to replace that. Colbert again we have we have submitted the application to the state insurance bank but we haven't we haven't heard of David approved it or not yet. So all the paperwork's in just a matter of waiting for the vote? That is correct I'm assuming they're going to approve it they gave every indication they would. Yeah okay thank you um approval licenses permits vouchers and applications. We don't have anything tonight for this one. Um should have uh payable of the warrants. I have that in front of me I can do that. Sure. I make a motion to approve payroll warrants 21 G18 with checks 2936 to 2964 in the amount of $95,269. Here a second? I'll second it. Any further discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Vince would you mind having all of the participants or all the listeners here mute their microphones? I think paul uh at the moment has a bunch of noise coming out of his. Okay we'll take care of that. Okay I think everyone's muted now. Let's see here minutes from January 18th and February 1st. Brad just a point sorry this is Vince um at the beginning and the the changes to the agenda I removed the February 1st minutes. Yeah okay so the minutes from January 18th. I make the motion to approve the minutes from January 18th 21 this evening. Second here. Here a second. Okay all those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Committee and board appointments and bylaw policies. Vince? Yep that was something that was requested a few meetings ago to review and look at. I made drafts of both those documents. I sent them out to the select to the select board for review. Hopefully you've got a chance to review them and just looking for approval to move forward with the adoption of those um board appointments and bylaw policies by the board. Here a motion on this? I have a chance to review them so I will um step back from making the motion. Yeah I unfortunately I didn't either. Well okay Vince we'll take in uh we'll take and move this next meeting. Very well got it. Thank you. No problem. Okay vast Irish Hill trail. Excuse me Brad. Yeah so uh at the request of the select board I placed some folks on mute so if they're having trouble unmuting themselves they could raise their hand and I will unmute them that way if you unraise your hand uh by going down to the participants at the bottom of your screen clicking on participants find your name there and hover over it and there is a raise your hand or you could do like Peter is doing now and and actually raise your hand on a video so um so uh so um Vince you will recognize if somebody's raising their hand on the video let me know if I need to unmute them. Sure Brad how would you like to do this is there a procedure that we're going to follow is everyone going to make their public comments and then the board's going to talk about it or is this going to be there uh if there's a motion out there someone makes one seconded and then we have discussion how are we going to do this I'd like there to be some kind of order to it yeah just just to keep everyone on the same page so we everyone knows what we're doing yeah well um why don't we take and um we'll we're running a little early here so what we'll do is we'll take and let the um let the uh public have their save for oh somewhere around 750 then we'll take and have a board we'll the board will discuss it so if everybody can keep their comments to about two to three minutes it'd be uh help so to that end Josh Walker has his hand up oh okay okay well I guess I'll uh start it off with um just what I would like to try to get accomplished tonight and that is that um we hope that the select board will approve making a trail so the snowmobile club can get from berlin corners to northfield working along with the conservation committee for the most feasible route we have already found and flagged in our eyes the most sensible route through with the least impact by using existing trails and log roads but we'll see what the conservation committee thinks of it we have also done a drawing material list and a cost to improve the bridge on Darling Road and have met with uh Jason Borg from the agency and natural resources for bridge approval and he's approved it we've done all this still without knowing if we can have a trail or not so hopefully we can navigate through this tonight of approving at least a trail not you know it doesn't have to be Darling Road it doesn't have to be ridgeline trail but I think we should be able to approve a trail and make one through and if um you I don't know if everybody is for me someone just put josh on mute did someone I can't hear any of that I didn't hear you you didn't hear any of it just the last 10 seconds josh I didn't hear yep also um I don't know why someone uh I didn't mute myself so um so I don't know where you left where I left off that meet with the agency and natural resources about the bridge and got a bridge approval from the natural resources you heard that and then about um making a trail through whether it be the ridgeline trail the Darling Road trail or us just going and cutting a trail through if there is um you know it's under my understanding that the Irish Hill management plan shows that snowmobiles are already approved there and there was one lot that got bought after and it got dropped through the cracks that this trail was not approved on this one loss in law um I think that instead of the um conservation board going and rewriting the whole management plan why can't they just send an addendum to Vermont Land Trust to have that's an existing road that everybody uses through this law already for us to use that and if not let us go on some other property and cut around this loss in law and and continue on is there any objections to that or uh you know I don't know if there's a select all the select board read the Irish Hill management plan yeah um is there any um when I read the the the deed to it there was the the caveat that there was no there was to be no motor vehicles up there when did that change that that's what I like to know because I remember going to the public hearing that everybody in town came to because it was uh pretty important to people to make sure that they could still do their outdoor activities up there and and I don't think it should have ever changed from having access for four-wheelers and dirt bikes and snowmobiles I never saw where that changed I excuse me so it's still if you read further below in the management plan it still states that there is uh that snowmobile it says motorized vehicles and then there's an exception where snowmobiles um are are allowed to be land that's in place absolutely allows for snowmobile usage on property um and as far as I can understand the Darling Trail is a class 4 trail that's currently also allowed to be in certain land based on all the conversations and dialogues that I've had with individuals the existing plan would actually be effective that's not to say that we shouldn't alter it to make it more suitable to the needs of the town and the residents but not currently if you read it it does say that it's an email from the conservation committee because one of my questions from the conservation commission but I was told that every ride is a snowmobile another point I'll make on that on the trail also when we when we went in base putting the snowmobile trail you know opening that trail back up we went with the approved trail that was already there where we had approval on Darling Road and the Ridgeline Trail so we went using the Darling Road and the Ridgeline Trail and then extending the Ridgeline Trail onto Burlington Forest land which is doesn't have any covenants no protection it's just the conservation board and the select board have to agree or just the select board actually has to agree to let us go through on that last piece of parcel that parcel of land that butts to the Northfield down line so that was the only parcel that we thought that we had to get permission for now it's you know after you know bringing this up with the conservation board we can't use any of it it seems it seems like they bought some law in the middle of the mountain that doesn't allow any motorized vehicles which which they shouldn't have and they they should have had that approved before they just went and bought this and make an agreement with Vermont Land Trust well they obviously had the approval of the select board because they can't spend money without approval yeah okay sorry we've got some other residents uh raising their hand that would like to speak to this Peter Peter you're on mute that was this can you hear me now there you go right yeah I wanted to commend the select board for their decision to entrust the study of this question too vast and the conservation commission I think that is the appropriate process the conservation commission was set up with Vermont state statutes title 24 chapter 118 which allows a town in this case a town of Berlin to establish a conservation commission and once that happens then vsa 4505 gives powers and duties to administer those lands to the conservation commission all of these are subject to approval by the select board of course and in addition to that vsa 4506 gives the authority to for disposition of any of these properties that includes changes in use of any of these properties to the conservation commission having said that I just think I want to go back to February 1st the board's unanimous decision to request that vast study the question the request by vast with the conservation commission is the appropriate process to thrash this out and I don't think you have enough time in your meeting to thrash out the details here Peter I would agree with you 99% of what you said where I see the difference because I made the motion one we didn't have anyone from vast at that meeting and hadn't done the due diligence to know exactly how much time they needed in order to build bridges and do those types of things I still think that the vast and the conservation committee should be building the management plan together for how we're going to take care of the trails as far as whether or not it's approved I think that's a 100% a select board decision and I don't think that we need I think they can be parallel tracks I think you can do the management plan over here and make sure we're addressing and mitigating as many concerns as possible and over here give some kind of affirmation some kind of certainty to vast that we want this to happen so they can start building bridges and updating trail maps and doing all of those things that are needed to be done that's really what I was trying to do I agree with that too I think the question is whether the voters want it done and that's to be determined I think it should be given every opportunity and I think authorizing it before the study happens and before the public hearing happens that you folks voted on is letting the horse out of the barn and I think that the turnout that you've seen and the feedback that you've heard if you listen to it and weigh it you'll see that there's a pretty even balance a pretty fair balance of opinions on both sides and it requires a study now I gather from all the correspondents that I've seen that the select board and various people have been studying this for what has been characterized as a long time I haven't been in on that I'm not aware of that but the fact that you've been looking at it for a long time doesn't mean that now because there's snow on the ground and somebody wants to build a bridge that you need to make the decision precipitously I think your decision on the first was appropriate I think that study needs to happen before you reach a decision so it wasn't it wasn't a study that we were doing it was a management plan that that was part of that but it wasn't a study well you know we can't tell that because we haven't seen the minutes from that meeting you you you talked about it again on the 15th or the 18th the next meeting in February and perhaps you clarified it but at on the first the the decision was to have the conservation commission and vast study the question with a public hearing to follow on June 1st I believe I believe that that means there would be no decision prior to the public hearing I agree with that from my perspective in our meeting we helped rewrite the management we made we did want public involvement but it wasn't to do a study in any way so I apologize that the minutes aren't out in a probe for your review can I weigh in for a minute my state for that decision I listened to the wording I get in if you have a recording maybe you want to check it I think the message was clear the intent was clear to have those two groups crash out to see if a trail was feasible and to weigh in with the board your board before June 1st so you could have a public hearing on June 1st to discuss it publicly can I can I weigh in on a few yeah go ahead Phil uh let me just speaking on behalf of the conservation commission go over a few things and the steps we've taken in the past month to begin work on resolving this issue the conservation commission is meeting with members of vast on March 15th at six o'clock to discuss some of the outstanding issues in regards to criteria already stated in our easements and we have a list of questions that hopefully vast can answer to clarify these concerns second point is the uh the conservation commission plans to be at every select board meeting to answer questions and to be here for resource as needed I'm on tonight looks like Wendy's also listening in tonight uh the commission has agreed with the select board's suggestion of possibly finding a third party with experience in resolving land use issues and we've given Vince some leads on possible resources to do just that the fourth item is the conservation commission the process of creating a steering committee to include interested individuals who represent specific user groups we intend to meet the third week of March and the purpose of this community steering committee is to consider not only all the viewpoints concerning the vast trail but other outdoor activities that take place on irish hill now these user groups include vast members hunters dog walkers mountain bikers hikers birdwatchers skiers snowshoers and we've had berlin residents already expressed interest in being on the steering committee including peter shover josh walker win goodrich ron lions trevor whipple brad lockwood and connor peterson representing those groups so and so i've realized the conservation commission realizes there may need to be a multifaceted approach given time constraints for applying for grants and things like that we understand that but we're determined as a commission to ground truth all the trail proposals in hearing to the conservation criteria that is already validated and in our present plan so as the commission you know we're appointed kind of stewards of town forest and public lands and there may be some conditions that can't be fully vetted until the land begins to fully thaw vegetative growth begins in mid to late june now it's important to determine you know what the soil is growth of specific fauna and grasses and that may not happen as quickly as we would like given the uncertainty of spring conditions however i'm not sure may 15th we can determine all those things so this might be a multifaceted dual thing as we move forward and i'm not sure how the select board will do that but as a conservation commission we we believe it's really important to vet all those criteria as the ground thoughts and that may not be till july 1st if if this winter continues the way it is now in closing just several questions we'd like to ask the board as a commission what exactly is the board expecting from the commission by june 1st we were assuming it would be a recommendation with an amended management plan and secondly as we look forward or towards hiring someone to help us in this process who will be paying for that person we're uncertain on those two things so that's just kind of a quick synopsis of what's happened in the last month for the conservation commission uh we've got a lot of irons in the fire and wheels are moving so the conception or the the appearance that the conservation commission is dragging its feet or not doing due diligence and getting things done is not true at all we are as a volunteer board we put a lot of hours in and we're working very hard to come to some sort of resolution and as i said our first big step before we move on is we'd really like to get this vast meeting uh together we have a list of questions they're dave and mark are eager and willing to meet with us and i assume it's open but it'll be six o'clock on march 15th and thereafter i think things will even move more quickly as we get answers so phil i have a i have a couple things and i can answer your questions but first could you send me the minutes of these public meetings that you're having because by statue as peter showed us these are all public meetings and if you're deliberating and making decisions it has to be done in public forum with minutes there's no way around that yeah we have no we have we have minutes and i just have a question with vince today when we zoom and it's recorded the zoom recording is available to everybody as far as i know it should be posted on the website town website and i assume the select board meeting does the same if you could send me the last six months worth that would be great okay it should be on the website our minutes yeah they're on the website but the the recent meeting this week is recorded on zoom and we haven't submitted meetings on that uh minutes on that meeting yet okay because there was some confusion last week when wendy lenn said that your advisory only and you didn't take votes or do minutes so there seems to be some confusion on the committee and that that's fine as long as you haven't worked out sorry i'm going to weigh in john i did not say that we don't take minutes i said that we do not vote in the same way that you vote in other words your vote carries weight we've come to consensus when we usually discuss things which is a different thing than what you're presenting if you have minutes for all that then that's that's great yeah okay mr purley you're muted mr purley we can't hear you you're on mute still sorry about that um once the vast trail goes in it's there's no getting it out ever it's there forever so before the town makes the decision i'm hoping that certainly the conservation commission will be uh listened to and that they will have time to do the kind of studies on howard effects not only the trail and the land that the snowmobile uh the snowmobiles will traverse but uh adjacent property owners to the to the land the that the trail is on and how it will affect them and hopefully input from some of those people um if all of those things are done and do diligence as you people talk about is done um then that's the good process to rush this thing through to uh not give the conservation committee enough time uh and facilities whatever they need to make a decent study of this i think would be a mistake vast has a lot of trails they don't necessarily need this one if things about it are really counter to um what might happen to the town and the people near that trail thank you uh mr pearly on that uh once the trail if the trail is approved it's uh they have to um come back every year to get the approval again also um the conservation commission should be going up there in the spring to see what kind of damage if any was done so it if the vast gets the approval this this year doesn't necessarily mean it's an ongoing thing has it ever happened that vast trails were eliminated once they were installed in fact that whole mountain used to have trails going up and over and we've since eliminated them okay it's good to know yeah the the important thing is is that uh you can look at this as a trial or you or or however you want to look at it but it's a year to year approval and if there is damage or if there's something that they're they're not willing to uh the change we can have that discussion later okay um i think it's still bears not rushing it in without really examining everything what do you think what do you consider rushing because we've been talking about this since october so i'm just looking you know everyone has a different perspective on what russian rushing uh situation is well what is yours i mean is it is it one year is it five years what what's your time frame look like here as far as rushing uh my time frame i guess since they know much more about this than i do would be a time frame that would be suitable for the conservation commission so if they wanted a five-year study that would be suitable i'm sorry so if they suggested a five-year study that would be suitable that way you're going um yeah i mean if i believe that the people on the conservation commission are not trying to axe the trail that they want to find out enough stuff about it i mean the the there was a june for june for a deadline and i mean if the conservation i think they can the the commission feels that's reasonable then let's go with that i can weigh in on that also um i i think the important thing is not necessarily what the precise time is the important thing is are we getting answers to questions that we have given to vast um and there are multiple questions that are still open we have asked the questions to local representatives who are now moving it up the level so that we can talk to david relo and talk to mike mark reeves and see if we can get answers to questions um some of the questions that are important to us is um the ridge line trail is quite steep um how are we going to share that with pedestrians and motorized um a motorized vehicle and i know that people on snowmobiles don't necessarily feel like there's a problem but i believe that people who walk or ski or snowshoe may consider that a problem um so we're looking to get from vast examples of other public land with that type of use and how is that managed so we know how to manage that on our property that would be one thing um we still haven't got a written thing about what type of um what type of maintenance may be needed up front on the darlin trail the darlin trail goes to class two wetland um and if there's going to be any movement of land in other words if the drainage stitches are going to be widened if there's any woody vegetation that's going to be removed that requires that um somebody from department of environmental conservation at least looks at it to see if it needs permitting and if it needs permitting who pays for that permitting so that's another open question that we don't have any answer to um there's been conversations about connecting the communities along route 12 into the vast trail and i'm having a hard time seeing how those communities will be connected into the concurrently proposed trail so we are we have that question that we've given to vast so we've got a list about a page of questions that we've been already doing for low um and the meeting that we have with them is so we can precisely sit down and get answers so you know once we have answers to the questions so we can move forward but we don't have answers right now so some of those questions we've addressed in these meetings over and over like the steepness of the trail okay i guess i don't what is the answer to that it's not and in fact if you in a last meeting i believe we talked about several places including northfield and wooster and callus and all the surrounding towns and that's why i asked if any of you have ever been on a snow machine i asked that eight or nine months ago and i think uh maybe one of you had said you previously owned a snow machine back in the 70s or early 80s and the rest of you hadn't so you know i think all of these things are addressable and we have talked about them in in several different meetings um just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean we don't talk about them wendy and as far as i've seen i'm going to just counteract that for just a minute i've seen standards for snowmobiles that are published out on state websites that recommend a grade of less than 10 percent the average grade going from the darling trail to the ridge is 14 there are pitches in there multiple pitches that are 20 or more um there's no run out um so i as a pedestrian are not necessarily comfortable in that situation and we've had a lot of input from burlin residents who are also not comfortable with that so that would be a big question that needs to be resolved because what happens when people aren't comfortable is you displace them so all of a sudden the people who walk on those trails um are displaced off the trails because they're not comfortable and our easement um prioritizes non-motorized recreation so we do need to resolve those questions yeah so so as we said before again when when josh talked about it these trails are 10 foot feet wide and will be groomed right so when you think about a 10 foot 10 foot wide trail as we've discussed there's plenty of room if a snow machine's coming the other way doesn't can it make someone nervous probably you know depending on how familiar people are with things like that but there's tons and tons of signage that vast has put all over the state for different situations and including in plainfield where it drives straight through the center of a state of vermont wetland and there's signs on both sides you know warning people to stay on the trail warning people that it is a wetland area all of these things so you know i'm looking between you vast in the state that is not a decision we make i'm looking so and it's not a decision that the conservation committee makes about what the trail access is for the route 12 corridor i guess my point is that i can't make a decision about the wetland but the state may have something to say about that yep um my second thing is i would like to see an example of public land with high pedestrian use on that type of slope um that has a snowmobile trail going through it and i know that there's a lot of private land like that we have it near my house but that's a whole different situation than a town that has pedestrians using the land a large number of pedestrians using the land with that type of slope in snowmobiles and i know most people are very careful on the snowmobiles um and i know under most conditions they're probably controllable but you know let's say you get ice let's say you've got slush let's say some of the rocks are exposed it's very eroded up there um the potential to have loss of control does exist yep for someone that's never been on a snow machine again the same loss of control can happen on a mountain bike Wendy yeah i don't like this much smaller i i ski i bad country ski i've ridden a through these quite a bit i'm i'm familiar with this there's a big difference between a skier losing control and a snowmobile losing control a mountain biker or a biker losing a comment uh uh let's see here john in all fairness i will tell you that i have owned a snowmobile and i have been on all of those trails many of them before they were trails um and the areas that i hear talked about tonight as being steep are extraordinarily steep they were made less so when the bulldozers went up there to build the road to the tower to build the tower but they're still steep so um you asked me a while back if i would walk those trails with josh in the spring i said yes i would be glad to do that i think that's appropriate i think um you may find that there's not width up there for the groomer but that's not for me to decide that's a vast question and it's a legitimate question but i think there are many questions that still have to be answered it is conversation may have been going on for months many of us are not aware that has been going on for months and we're just trying to get up to date now because we haven't seen the minutes from your last meeting and i think again you know your decision the board's unanimous decision on february 1st to wait for if i hate to put it that way but wait for the study the conversation the meetings whatever you want to call it with vast for their input and the conservation committee to represent the town in preparation for public hearing on june 1st is the way to go to to make a decision before that i think was irresponsible okay mr town sorry we've got two people two people with their hands up um josh walker and then mr paul pearly uh we also have mr winton uh mr winton also since you haven't we haven't heard from you winton why don't you start you're on mute all right can you hear me now yep uh so i'm i'm pleased to be able to weigh in on this like peter uh i'm a day late in a dollar short but i have some interest and i think i can add some uh some comment here we've lived on darling road on west berlin since 77 and that was back when darling road and the class four portion of it were snowmobile trails for six years i was a state trooper that did snowmobile patrol so i've not only been on snowmobiles i have policed snowmobiles and so i have a pretty good idea of what the good things are and the bad things are i also taught snowmobile safety courses for the state police uh so that's that's my background and i'm not opposed to snowmobiles i am very concerned about if the trail uh goes and the route that it does from berlin pond um rookfield street over and then hangs a left on top of the ridge what's going to prevent that from continuing back down darling road on class four and then eventually on class three because that's how the access happened uh in the 70s and 80s through pine ridge or pine hill and chandler road and i know there are folks that would like access from that direction i am concerned like peter and others have shared about the erosion in fact the erosion is so bad on the lower portion of of darling class four road that snowmobiles can't navigate up it they have to go outside the right of way and through the woods and that's all private land and also my neighbor um emily medley and pablo chirkov live within 30 feet of that intersection of class three and class four road my other concern is you'll allow snowmobiles or you're going to allow atvs and dirt bikes so that's kind of my background and my interest uh i volunteered to serve on the steering committee with the conservation commission i think they have a wonderful approach and for the next meeting i'm going to add um make a recommendation for another volunteer his name is bob capo bianco he's a horse logger a woodlot manager and an environmentalist he lives in weimstown but i think he might be able to add some insight that others may not have so that's that's what i wanted to share with the board tonight and again i reiterate uh if you allow it you can allow snowmobiles on the the path that the uh that you're looking at now i really don't want to see it come down over the hill and especially on darling road because it's a very windy road and very dangerous and i've experienced it for a good number of years until the select board shut that down i think that's a that was a great decision and i'll back off now and listen to other people thank you brad just to let you know josh ron and paul all have their hands up i just have a question for wenton wenton thank you i'm just curious what year uh did the did the select board shut down that trail do you remember by chance i don't but all of a sudden there just weren't any snowmobiles on it i i just attributed that to the there wasn't as popular as gas prices were high uh i would say that uh probably that stopped around the early 80s maybe 85 or so um because i don't remember much activity after that time okay josh thank you okay i just want uh let's see because i look so you can't hear me so um i just wanted to follow up on like with wendy on the steepness and you she can go right over to millstone there's uh a bunch of snowmobile trails in millstone where there's bikers hikers snowshoers skiers dog walkers frisbee players all on the same trail and the trails are well over a 20 grade so if you needed to talk to somebody see somebody other than talking with us on our on our meeting on the 15th there's close by trails that are shared by many people and they're on in the hills and i don't know if you've been into millstone but there's some steep hills over there and then um the other thing was about um accessing and it was about um maybe continuing and maybe getting a trail over onto darling road on the uh west burlin side you know that was just going to be for the future and for those people to work out how they'd be able to get snowmobiles up to the trail on the mountain um another thing was about you know you guys have we've already had a public hearing on this there's been a public hearing uh about a month ago on this so we've had the public hearing um the trail has already been approved on the irishill management plan and and i don't think it was ever shut down by the select board it was just stopped being used because of lack of snow and lack of interest in the town to keep it open yeah that's when the town of burlin had their own snowmobile club and let's see what else i have on here in the steering committee i think that's a great idea but for us with vast we don't want to sit out what sit while you do this whole committee on dog walkers on hunters on whoever else that you know has an interest on the mountain we want to get the snowmobile trail we don't see where we have to change the plan for putting the snowmobile trail through there um i have no problem with sitting on a steering committee and working through that but i don't think that that should be the hinge point on the select board given us permission for the trail we will definitely want to work with the conservation commission and everybody in the town of burlin to make this work for everybody and also about the june 1st meeting i had missed that i didn't know anything about the june 1st meeting also so or about having this all come back to another public hearing on june 1st i heard nothing about that until these last couple meetings well with vast you know it's a club we have to get grant applications into vast so that we can get money for these trails for you know trail upgrades for bridge upgrades and for their budget for their next year's budget so that's why we kind of need to have this decision made before may so that we can get our applications in for what we need to have done and approved by vast for funding okay uh uh ron got unmuted here and there you go thank you i think that one of the things that going back to the february 1st meeting really felt very comfortable there were lots of people had different viewpoints on both sides and that's always the case of working these type of projects so professionally and you always have people that you know people want to get things done they're in a hurry and such and other people don't want things but i thought that was a great process it was put in place is that this uh very familiar with this ridge line and very familiar with the trail system and i think there are areas that the town really needs to but take the time to study and make a good decision the only way you make a good decision is really to understand the facts and i think that was where the we're very fortunate as a town have the conservation commission and other people jumped in on this to do that review it's something that if we can get good facts in front of us i think we can make good decisions that work well for most people you know and there always are compromises and mitigation measures and such but i think that getting that will give us a confidence in a town that we're not setting up something that's a problem for other users not a problem for possibly for vast in the future not a problem for traffic on the roadway system that's you know to go through the list and most of those things on the list were in that february 1st meeting so so taking the time to look at those and look at them when you have some spring weather and snow melt right now i walked up there you just uh it was an environmental reviewer you just can't see much up there now so you need spring weather and then i think you need some of these questions that go i've got great i guess a great uh respect for what vast has done over the years in the state i'm not much of a snowmobiler i got two 1970 waters i don't think one runs but but they've done a good job and i think that's one of the things that we can take some time we've got a good conservation commission we've got good people in vast that quite the things like jox jox said we have a concern let's let's look at some other things in the commission other areas that have been successful and then look at our during the town planning process seven years of doing the master plan there's one of the things we always said is you need to look at what we're doing with the ridge lines and conservation areas we've had habitat and we've got use issues and noise issues and erosion issues and all those are not unsolvable possibly but they do have to be looked at closely and it does take a little time once again we're very fortunate we have a group of people that are willing to put in that time and do it correctly i don't think rushing into this has any benefit to any of the parties involved to tell the truth um whether we need to build a bridge uh you know in construction you like to know your timetable you've got permits and everything but it's really important to make good decisions to back up that trail back up the bridge and um and if we get those decisions made by looking at them closely i think we'll get through those i guess i call them wider wider hurdles a bridge will come at a time that works if we to make good decisions so i'd strongly support going forward of what was decided in uh in uh the last meeting February 1st and giving people time to work through this so we do have answers out of lots of different things that we need answers on and uh once again uh pleased to understand pleased with who we've got working on this and pleased with vast knowledge that they have in the trails i think we could come up with with a good plan that works for the town and the residents and the users thank you that's not it okay thank you ron uh trevor hey brad brad i have a quick question i just i was researching the uh the minutes from the conservation commission and not to not to bring something up again that sounds maybe like it's counterproductive but transparency um just an understanding of from the community's perspective would be good and all i can see since 2019 is uh February 3rd and February 10th of this year for minutes posted so certainly certainly the conservation commission has spent several times i'm curious if they have those minutes they can share so that we can get those put on the website so that we can be better informed i mean it's difficult as an advanced to get information or make decisions from an advisory board or committee um if we can't we we do have those minutes i'm not sure why they're not posted but we can get them to you okay um when would you be able can we get them to the board we have them we can send them i you did well well we're looking on the website right now we see October 12th on there we can get them to you under the conservation commission i when i go to the boards and under the conservation commission for boards and agendas in minutes i only see those two so that's why i was asking no if you go way down to the bottom but just and we'll get those to you there's we don't need to take time up right now discussing that so we'll get you the minutes no problem okay trevor all right thanks thanks how's it going i'm all right thank you you know i need to hear my points i i think all over again you've got those they're on the record you know the the uh the additional i guess one additional concern i have or or thing i would just ask the board to make sure that you explore as this moves forward is uh and i'm sure that vast has a lot of experience with this but you know in talking with folks whom i work with is about potential uh you know legal exposure to the town so you know if the town is thinking about moving forward with a shared use path to include motorized recreation to just make sure that town attorney reviews the insurance policy from vast making sure that the town of berlin is indemnified uh we wouldn't want to get sued and then have the taxpayer have to pay for litigation as well as an mou uh about who takes care of the trail and and when uh you know one of the the things i heard is that you know there was a an agreement uh or there's a potential if you have an agreement uh who who maintains that if you get a call if our highway department gets a call that there's a tree down on the trail and we don't have a good mou in place and the highway doesn't go right up and take care of it somebody hits it and gets hurt then the town could be sued and potentially be liable so i would ask you to uh you know to explore the legal documents that are being proposed uh by vast uh as we move forward so that our town attorney has time to review those and just make sure that uh you know it's not putting any potential litigation on the taxpayer for uh you know additional use of that trail or to to make sure that that we are covered uh by an insurance policy for any any litigation that could come out of that and and that also you know concerns me as well with the with the road we're going to put snow machines on a road uh an already road uh you know a road that gets a lot of mixed use uh we're going to add i think it's roughly about a mile of shared use between motor vehicles and and snow machines and bikers walkers you name it thank you the way i thank you trevor uh we are now we can't okay um so now we come to the slackboard part of the the vast irish hill trail um john would you like to start this john john you're muted i hear that like five times a day in all the season meetings that i do i tell you i forget that button all the time um you know for me it's about making progress and making sure that we're moving forward here um we've been going quite a while here with very little movement even though that we have held public hearings and we have heard from all of you on several occasions i also know that josh has been out there collecting signatures and has you know 150 signatures in support of the trail um and you know i i i don't know what the june first uh meeting is going to accomplish besides to hear all these uh same concerns again from the immediate landowners around the trail um and you know i i live on the pond as well um you know i deal with all the same cars that all of you do passing by on both sides of the road uh walkers four wide um and share the same concerns about you know making sure uh that we're looking to mitigate as many risks as possible if we are going to put snow machines on the road right how are we going to uh do that and what does it mean and i think i think that's the that's the big thing is making sure it's clear but we got to figure out a process here where we can accurately track and write these things down almost like a frequently asked questions because we keep going around in a circle over and over and over with these same exact things um and you know i think josh has pointed out a number of occasions um things that you know the vast would do he shared a management plan uh from other towns like this is all stuff that we've done and now um against the selects against i think the majority of the select board wishes the conservation committee isn't doing just an amendment for snow machines they've decided to take up the entire management plan again to address all the different things that they've missed in the past including mountain bikers including atvs that are up there um and you know it to me it feels like um the conservation committee is dead set against the snow machine trail and has been slow rolling it and i i don't mean uh um you know any offense to anyone when i say that but that's the way it feels to me and i'd like to see some progress the um at some point i can't remember the meeting but there was a there was an agreement or consensus between the select board and the conservation committee about um redoing the whole plan and then going to the uh going to um land trust to take and get the uh plan update um i don't know i was that john i just don't recall that i guess it was it was a while ago it was back when wane and pete myself uh were all on on the board we've been talking about this for a very very long time the the updating of the management plan was when the when bass started to uh ask about the trail because there was some concern about the covenants in the deed and it was so i had to be back about the time that started but i do remember hearing about that and that do you remember any of this uh bill bill uh i i i vaguely recall if i don't have a date i'm not sure are you thinking was a little over a year ago probably i'll have to i'll take and go through the i'll go through my minutes see what i can find um justin well i tend to uh agree with john there um i feel as though this has been ongoing and ongoing i also feel like um the the reality is that that maybe the current management plan already addresses snowmobiles um in that my understanding is it would be acceptable um and i maybe the town should get another perspective on that that doesn't change the idea that i think we should work with the community we should work with every demographic that's utilizing the property i think that every every i mean i i i certainly want everybody that that has access to that area enjoy it um you know if if i'm being told that the management plan already allows for uh disabled or accessibility in use where ATVs are already allowed to drive up to the tower and snowmobiles are already allowed to drive up to the tower um i don't understand where that changes that piece of it um is i don't understand how that i didn't see that in the management plan specifically but the conservation commission did send me an email to that effect um i think that the town could ask to move forward um in a parallel path i think there's two different paths that need to be taken here i think that it's very important that everybody understands that if if there were action taken it doesn't eliminate or bypass any process that was put into place already it doesn't change any of the consideration i'll you know i think that we we have the ability to move forward you know the i think i'm going to go with this right now i'm just going to say this you know to be clear with the board's intentions and for the purposes of planning i want to make a motion to approve vast use in the burlin town for us this doesn't change any direction that we've already started working on the motion simply works in a parallel path with our current course this is another piece that would be required prior to moving forward it's just a general approval the direction of writing the plan if required for use still stands along with working beside baston other members of the steering committee the commission has formed to plan the best routes signage and other items that we may need to mitigate by doing this we will allow enough time for vast plan for the bridge and updates on their end as required to assist us in this public-private partnership to maintain the integrity of our forest for here a second i'll second okay any further discussion on this well i i think you know what what justin just said and he's been in and out of service fortunately it was clear through that you know there can be a separation here between the management plan and the trail approval and i think you know i think we've heard the opinions of the people that really don't want it i think where we can do another public hearing and what my intention was all along was that we task vast and the conservation committee with doing that management plan and bringing it back to talk about not only the management plan but you know how we're going to mitigate the risks that everyone has brought up so you know i i just wanted to add that in there but that that's it is this discussion open to everyone brad or is it just the select board members uh as long as you can keep it short Phil well i'm just i guess i'm unclear about uh at the last meeting i thought there was some direction to examine the idea of having a facilitator or consultant or someone come in and help us in the process and what i'm hearing uh right now from at least two board members is more of the uh decision already being made in polarization instead of discovery and trying to work out uh some sort of you know moving forward how we're going to resolve the issues before us so i guess i'm asking is the select board now rescinding the idea of having a facilitator come in that would be kind of neutral or yeah so i can answer that phil because that that was uh something that i had brought up and it was really a third party to write the management plan for us um to to take input from the different groups to ensure um that when we write it that um after hearing from you all that you know well we never did an update for four-wheelers we never did an update on mountain bikes it you know it's gotten away from us and there's it's a big plan to write it's a big undertaking my intention was to assist the conservation committee in vast by adding someone there to do the actual writing for us uh it wasn't a third party mediator by any means it was really someone to help us get the work done because it is such a big task okay gotcha okay any other discussion i have one question uh i wonder if people i wonder if the board and uh josh and the snowmobile club are prepared to change a decision if you make it tonight and if you are prepared to um build a bridge not knowing for sure whether this third party will approve your hoped for trail i think that's a possibility regardless of who studies the trail and so that's my question i can't answer for vast but i can i can tell you that um with the research that i've done uh with a well-written plan i haven't seen where the vermont land trust has denied uh usage for snow machining trails if if if people have um examples of that i'd love to see them but i have yet to see one uh and josh you can speak for vast because it's not my it's not my area too i have a just one point of order i guess are we by moving ahead on this are you rescinding what you said on february 1st of directing us to work with vast and the select board to mitigate concerns and have a draft of the updated management plan by june 1st no no not at all it was just it was just in its motion so i'll let him speak no not at all we're not rescinding that in any way shape or form it's a parallel path in order for vast to move forward for us to to make progress at any time we would have to separately approve i mean it's a completely separate item to approve snowmobile use or vast usage in the berlin count for us uh so that being said the second part i said with the motion was that i want that it doesn't take away from the steering committee it doesn't take away from input it's to help mediate with the steering committee you guys will figure out the best route possible you guys will figure out what am i correct jessen agree agree i agree uh josh um this this third priority thing um i think that was just if we ran into you know i understood it as if just we ran into a roadblock where we couldn't agree between like vast the town and the conservation commission where we bring in somebody to kind of mitigate everybody's needs and thoughts and wants i don't think that where we really if we can we don't need to make this a big deal this this has been done all over the place snowmobile trails all over the place vast has insurance it's going to cover the town of berlin every snowmobile owner that has a registered machine on the trail has liability insurance at least a minimum of liability insurance so when they're on the road and anything was to happen which it very very seldom does they have insurance each personal rider has insurance and vast has insurance to cover the town of berlin for if anything was to happen on a snowmobile so now i was wondering so you bring that up about snowmobilers have an insurance and whether the town's liable well is the town liable if a mountain biker goes off and hits a tree or if a skier goes off the trail or runs into one of those rocks you stay stick up out of the trail that the snowmobilers are going to be having to avoid you know you guys are it seemed to me like you're dragging so much stuff into this that really doesn't need to be uh so brad brad i just want to come back to the fact that we still have a motion on the floor on the floor yeah uh well we're in the discussion phase of it now so any other uh any more discussion well just just a quick note from my perspective is that uh uh i think what win and peter and other people who alluded to is people are just getting up to speed i know that the select board member feels like we're beating a dead horse i know that people feel like we're dragging the reality is it is a big deal for a lot of people it is a big deal now josh it's gotten bigger more people have gotten involved and rightfully so this is information we're sharing with residents and towns people they're chiming in to you they might be chiming in late but to others it's important so to work this process through we're hearing from people you haven't seen on this call tonight on the call February 1st on the oak the call in January people are coming forward because they have real concerns and there's nothing wrong with that that we need to vet it that's what a public forum should be that's what's happening and i think in reality people are feeling a little perturbed by it when in course this is the way civics works and this is what we're all about and i you know when john what john was saying something about we've gone over and over it i know i know but some people aren't up to speed it's like it's like phil scott every time on tuesday and friday he has to repeat himself mark levine repeats themselves can you imagine their role after a year of doing that twice a week so yeah you might have to repeat yourself you might have to hear some people that i haven't been here before but that's what this process is about and all we're trying to do is do the right thing get the right information in front of us help the board make a good decision on behalf of all the townspeople in reality in the long run if we can't come to some sort of consensus maybe the select board should throw it up for a ballot for the town maybe it should be voted on i don't know i don't think it has to come to that but that's my two cents i agree still okay uh trevor and thanks brad and i only respond because i think i was uh personally responded back to by another speaker and i thought this was a board meeting not a not a community discussion so it's not personal it's about risk to the town it's about risk to me as a taxpayer and all i ask is that the town attorney review the legal documents that's all um you know i think i think it's different when i talk to the people that insured the town they tell me it's very different from a mountain biker on a on a woods trail versus a motorized piece of equipment they tell me that the liability that your protection clauses in your insurance policy are very different and i just simply ask that they be reviewed by the people that the town hires to protect all the taxpayers from undue liability and if they say it's good it's great if it's not then i would just ask that we that the board do your due diligence to protect all the tax base from undue liability thank you trevor anything else with the motion all those in favor hi hi motion carries um and next on the agenda is well yeah i i i do want to know and i think everyone else probably does too is this that is this a five oh vote or is this a three two vote or is the four one vote this is flow and i'm not voting in favor okay i guess it's a four one okay let's see here round table flow not tonight but thank you brad gone um after last week and the me bringing stuff up in the the round table i want to be cautious so all i'm going to say is i think at the next board meeting we ought to discuss the steering committee um and the composition of that steering committee and who appoints the people to the steering committee and how do we you know i'd like i'd just like to hear a little bit more about that minutes can't reflect every piece of every conversation and i understand that but i would like to understand how people get appointed to it and what the public outreach is and whether or not there's going to be any kind of select board representation or not i don't have a strong opinion one way or the other but those are just questions that i'd like to talk about at the next meeting that's a um justin nothing this evening thank you angelina nope just uh take care everybody thank you for your time on the board angelina welcome yes angelina thank you you're welcome the anything executive session tonight events no nothing tonight okay entertain a motion to adjourn i'll second all in favor