 Okay, welcome back. The second hour, we thought we will do something different. The topic is on common issues in marriage and family, which I think you could just probably go through your notes and look at what are the issues. It's just basically looking at what are the issues and also what are guidelines you need to do as a counsellor. And I just want to quickly touch upon that and probably we'll have like a practical session. So, when you are counselling couples or families, there's more than one member, right? And usually what will you see when a husband and wife or a family comes together for counselling? What are some things that you think would happen? No, no. We're not looking at what will happen. What are you noticing? Yeah, they're fighting. And what are they fighting about? Yeah, so usually you will have two different kinds of stories, right? Two perspectives or two stories. So what should you as a counsellor do there? Okay, okay. Mike, people need to hear you. First, we have to listen to both the perspectives. I mean, you are asking me what we have to do the final thing? No, no, not final. Final is a process. I'm saying what should be some things you should keep in mind when you're dealing with a couple or a family. Compassion towards them. Do not judge them. Okay, so one thing very important is you don't side one. Yeah, one-sidedly. Don't take anyone's side. Side one and bring down the other. It's a very dangerous thing to do there. You're not there as a judge. You're not there as an advocate for anybody. You're helping them to come to resolve a problem. That's one of the first and foremost things that you need to do. And how do you do that? You need to make sure that both can trust you. So you're not going to isolate or alienate any of them, but how both can actually trust you. The idea is to get, you are standing there, not as a mediator. You know who a mediator is? Who's a mediator? And in between who's saying, okay, wait, wait, I'll tell him. You're not there as a mediator. Remember that. You're there as a facilitator. The facilitator is you're helping them come to a place of conversation and understanding. Okay, so that's what you're basically doing in that. All right. So I thought better than going through this is let's take an example and we will have a session. Okay, so I'll give you the scenario. The scenario is that the husband had a affair. Okay, they had a affair. The wife found out and as a result, they have come for counseling. All right. Okay, online students. Okay, now I'm trying to figure out how we can do this. How do we, online students engaging will be very difficult. So y'all are going to be, so what I'd suggest is to whoever are going to be sit together on one computer. And the counselor can you, you can just switch on your camera. Okay, okay, switch on the camera. So who are the two people? Okay, so Francis is the husband who's had the affair. Okay. And you're the wife. Someone has to be the counselor also. Anyone among the online students willing to be a counselor? I can try. I can try. Ramali, did you say yes? I said I can try. Yeah, okay, wonderful. Great. Okay, so she's going to try. Okay, so who's the wife? No, no, no. Anand, be the wife. You just have to complain about him. Easy job. Your husband has had an affair. You found out. Okay. You don't know how to manage. So come, come, come. Anand is wife. Take a chair and sit and put on your cameras. You just complain that he's, he's, okay, ready? Okay, fine. All right, just put on your video so Ramali can see you. Because I think it's helpful to see. Okay, I'm going to switch off my... Who is the wife? Anand is the wife? Yeah, yeah, Anand is the wife. Anand is taking some time to come. Oh, Anand is the husband. He's still coming from his affair. Ramali, your councillors want to see you. Yeah, I'm trying to come on the video, yes. Okay, okay. Excuse me. You heard that, Ramali? No, I didn't hear anything. Okay, I told him not to complicate it. I said that the husband agreed that he has an affair. And because the wife found out, she said until you come for coun... If you don't come for counselling, I leave. So that's the scenario and that's how they've come to you. Okay? You can start, Ramali. You can start. Hello. Okay, give yourselves a name or for Anand. No, Anand then... Angel. Okay, Anand then Angel. Okay, start. Yeah, Anand. Hi, Angel. How are you doing? I thought Anand. You're Anand. Anand, you are Anand's boy. Anand, yes. Well, I have to put it on now. Oh, okay. All right. Can you hear them? Hello. No. Yes, I can. I can hear them. So, Anand, I'm going through a big trouble, big problem. My husband is gone from my hand. He has an affair, but I don't know what to do with that. Okay, okay. Okay, calm down. And let's send you your little attitude right now. Can you hear me? Yes, right. Can you hear me loud and clear? Yes. Yes. Speak again. Hello, my check one to three. Okay, speak. My check one to three. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So, Anand, I... Angel, Angel. Okay, guys, let's keep it formal. Okay. Okay, let's start. Angel, I understand your little attitude right now. So, let's just take a moment. So, I'm glad you and your husband, Anand, are here today to meet me. And I'm sure the way it started, there are some kind of things happening in between you guys. So, even before I want to speak, can I understand what's exactly happening between you? Maybe I can hear from you both. Angel, would you like to go first and you can try and explain me what is wrong? I want only one thing. I want my husband back. Okay. So, what happened, Angel? What happened? Is there any reason for you to be so... He have a childhood crush from his 50 year old. But after I got it, he can marry her in no way. He married me and my life became spoiled. Now, that person, his name is Anand. He is with that girl every night, every morning. I mean, he's not spending time with me, not coming to my house. Lot of things, lot of things. Okay. So, you're saying that your husband is having an affair with his childhood crush. Am I right? Can you come again? You're saying that your husband is having a crush with his childhood classmate. Am I right, Angel? Yes, she is now there but they are maintaining their relationship. They are avoiding me. Okay. I understand you might be going to a lot right now. So, Anand, do you have... do you want to say your side of the story? Both husband and wife are discussing to tell me this way. Yeah. Hi, Emily. Hi. Sorry. Yeah. I heard your wife is saying that you're having an affair with your childhood friend. Do you like to explain your side of the story if anything... No, she is still my friend. She is doubting me. I don't know what to do if she doubted on what I have to do. Anand, I said agree that you had. You're confronted? It is true. Don't do this because that kid is very complicated. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Ravali. She is my childhood friend. So, yeah, we are in a relationship. Okay. Okay. So, before even addressing the problem, Prince is raising his hand, right? Do you have question, Prince? Go ahead. So, now, we need divorce. What is the topic? How should the story go? No, I think you may not just go with it. We just have some... Yeah. Who is the main character? Husband want to divorce or not to divorce? So, wife want to divorce, not to divorce. What is the forwarding story? That you create. That we create. No need to come with the story. Is it from husband or is it from wife? Okay. You created. Okay. So, we will create the story as we go along. So, before even addressing the issue that you have shared, you both of you, and it's difficult for both of you to come to this place, but I'm glad you took a step which shows that you really respect and you really care about each other. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions if you don't mind. Can you tell me, it's been how many years you got married? I don't remember. Angel, how many years you got married? My tears are coming. He not remembering that one also. It's been 10 years. Okay. 10 years. Yeah, 10 years I think so. That's great. That's great. So, do you have any children out of this marriage? No, he don't have time for that. I assume there are no children because you guys have grown up. That's what they said. Okay. Yeah. So, how was your 10 years of marriage? Could you just summarize it in a few sentences? I know now we are going through a difficult time, but how was your marriage in the past before this all started? I circumcised myself like on the one day from there to today. Like first week and I think first month is okay. We are in a good relationship. Then he started separating from my life. Jeanne, you are on mute, so I can't hear what. I have to let them talk. Anand, can you please? Francis, can you talk? Now you can hear me? Yes, yes, yes. So, you are saying? Yeah. Okay. So, from the... Anand mute yourself. Fully, fully, fully. So, it's been like from the month we married, I think mostly one month he is with me. We are in a good relationship. We are like a friend, best buddies, but after one month, mostly three months, he started separating from me. He said he had a job, a lot of jobs, a lot of works happening. He started going out. I'm from my heart pure love. Okay, I trust she and me is saying the truth, but after six years only I got to know from one of my friends here. She is a CCTV on our villa. She said, okay, he is going not to that person, not to for a walk. He is going to another person. Like after I'm in the investigation, but recently I found out I talked to him. It's been one year. It's been one year, I caught him. So, actually, Angel, few details are not matching. You said you were married for 10 years. And then after six years, you found out after three months, he got separated from you. He's keeping separate from you. And after six years, you found out he had an affair. And so, what happened in these six years? Were you guys having good moments? Were you guys happy? Actually, he's not separating. We are not feeling separated. He'll come on the morning, like not in the proper talking. I will make food for him. He'll come and eat. And we will spend time sometime. It's been everything normally, but I felt somewhere. Now I am feeling somewhere. Okay, that is the reason he went. He's been a busy lifestyle, but we got the time to talk. We got the time to enjoy. He gave that freedom and all. Okay. Anand, how was your experience, your last past 10 years of your marriage life with Angel? Angel shared her story. Could you please share what was your experience? Do you have any happy moments or anything that could you highlight on it? If you ask about my wife, she's a very good girl. As far as I know, she's a loving girl. Whenever I come back home, she'll be waiting for me. She cooks a good food, Kerala food. She cooks so well. She's one of the best things I can say about her. Yeah, everything is good for me. She's a very good wife. I don't have any problem with my wife. So as you agreed that she's a good person and you had a good time with her as a wife, she's taken care of you and family. And also as you kind of agreed that you have an affair with your friend, could you please tell me since when this all started, is there any point where you decided that you had to look out? We understand everybody has some kind of a weakness. Is there something with you that you could explain to us as a reason? Yeah, she is my childhood friend. So we promised each other we'll be there for each other for life. So I can't break that promise. But my parents forced me to marry this girl. So I can't cheat that girl. I can't cheat my wife also. So yeah, I'm just justifying. I'm just being on both sides, balancing two families. Okay. As complicated as it sounds. So now you come to this position where it's hard for me to say but as you are hearing from Angel, both of you are in a difficult relationship. And Angel is so sad that she wants you for her sense and she doesn't want you to share you with any other person. So you came to this point where you have to choose between Angel and your childhood friend. So I would like you to think about it. I am not expecting an answer. I would like what you suggest is that you and Angel... I just want to tell you one thing, Raveli. My childhood friend didn't got married and she stayed for me. She has not married it. For me only she stayed like this. So you just tell me if I leave one, how it will be for her. If I stay only with my wife, I can't leave her because she stayed for me, right? I can't leave my wife also. I don't want to see it anymore. I want two families. I want both my wife and my childhood friend. So unfortunately, you are married to Angel Anand. So that is a covenant that you made with Angel and you haven't married your childhood friend. So there is no kind of a legal covenant that is attached with her. So it will be an illegal affair at any point of time. So I understand your feelings towards... I can understand your feelings towards her but as you see legally and morally or ethically Angel is your wedded wife and if you have to stay with her it is that you have to be true what you have promised to Angel as part of the legal or covenant process. So Angel, I would like to ask you this question as Anand is expressing his feelings for the other person as she is not able to leave her because of the promise he made for her. So after listening this, how do you feel about it? For Anand to live with me, you need to leave that black suit of yours that girl and you can't leave my house. Or else it's going to be forever. I'm going to kill Anand then his girlfriend and I'm going to change. I don't want this life without Anand. Looks like you've been through a lot Angel. Your voice also changed quite a bit. I would say we'll do this. Maybe I would like you guys, two of you, Angel and Anand, you just sit together and you can talk what you feel about each other and have a sit over a cup of coffee, leave everything aside. You can talk your heart out about each other and when we meet before the next session, you come with the points that you write down what you feel about each other and I would request you to come for the next session after doing this exercise. I hope that is okay. See, it is difficult. I want you to understand it is difficult to give an absolute solution for these kind of problems because there are two individuals involved with the third extra and decisions should not be taken in haste. We will take it slow. I understand both of you are in pain and a lot of complexities. It's like Angel might get an architect also. I would like you to do this exercise. We will meet in the next session with what you have. Thank you. Excellent. Is my mic on? Wonderful. I think you did such a great job, Ravali. I think let's look at what Ravali has done. The skills that she showed. We will get Angel and Anand to first respond. What did you think about the way that she... How did you all feel? Put yourself in the role. How did you all feel that she responded to you despite the situation being hard? Actually, she responded so good. Like a professional. And I appreciate her for not... She is not fed up of just listening to us. Yeah, she did a very good job. Okay. Be specific of your answer. What did you find her doing? It's been... For my side, it's a complicated thing. What we give to her. And how she... I liked how she wind up the section. She didn't went to... From her side, she did her best. And from... She became overflowing from her head. She said, okay, we will wind up this section now. Just you talk. And she didn't left also. She didn't like... What is that? She didn't give up on... And she didn't write extra something not wanted. She want to go forward. But take a break, okay. Like how to... She handled in a very well position. Okay. Any other thoughts? What did you think? How did you think Rabeli handled it? How do you think she handled it? Nicely. What... Give some specific... Give specifics to it. Even the other online students. She... What I felt it's like... She was very patient. And how she was giving... Like it's not like giving the solution. But... Coming into a point where they both can communicate to each other. I think... Yeah, Neena. Information she's given. You're legally married with one and not... Both wives, yeah. Nice. Good. Yeah. So she... If you saw... I think your voice was... You didn't get perturbed when you heard... You know... The complexity of it. You did say it is a complex situation. But I do understand what where you are in both spaces. You were careful not to take sides. That's one thing that I really did see. Despite what maybe Anand said. That could have worked. Or could have bought about... You know, maybe a response of judgment. You were very, very clear of... Not doing that. I think you've got... You rephrased what was spoken. You were empathetic to both. To both of them. You actually showed a lot of empathy. You clarified. You asked one person the question. And the other person you said, What do you have to say about it? What do you think about it? What do you think about having to put in your... Ideas or thoughts? And you ended it well. You've probably said, Let's go back. We can't discuss this completely. But go talk about it and come back. I think overall you did an excellent job. Anyone else? Anyone else would like to bring about thoughts? What did you think? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Go ahead. For me, I felt like She was not being biased. Especially when we know when that other person legally accepts that that person was in an affair. We almost take the side for an affected person who get affected. But she's been so neutral towards each person also trying to make feel that she understands him also. She understands his situation also. That's a good thing I like. And also she was trying to be but she was not minimizing the problem of Anand. She was also like, I understand you also. I understand your perspective too. And actually I like the way she closed it up. Even I was just waiting how she will but she was so, I think she used wisdom for the end how to conclude further session telling you talk and come back with a point writing. She did a very good job actually. Okay. Anyone else? Anyone else wants to, before we have Ravali say what she felt. Ravali, you want to share what you thought. Actually it is a difficult situation because first thing is not a real scenario so they are not really speaking out of their heart and they are being very naughty and funny. So very tough. So for me to put in that place where I should not respond in the I thought I should not respond the way she approached me to give it a thought even though when I know that Anand is a wrong thing inside my heart he is saying I gave the promise to that girl I want to do justice to both my wife and that girl I felt very I am like one I will give you inside my heart I was thinking but so I wanted to put it across in such a way that you know I wanted to as you said I made sure that I am not biased to someone and I made sure I want to listen both sides of the story because both are together and I also felt the need of counseling them separately as well I wanted to say that in the end because when they are together there is a lot of promotion happening that Angel is like back and all of that and he is like you know trying to say his point so I felt even counseling together and also counseling separately to understand each other's perspective is important I felt and also one point where I said something and I kind of corrected it is when Anand is telling that you know I love her also I mean basically he likes the childhood and I said I understand your situation but I corrected that I am listening to whatever you see because I felt I might not understand his situation because I haven't been there at any point of time so I understood his emotion that he felt that way but I didn't know how to put it across in that case scenario where he is saying I gave a word for her and I am feeling bad that I am not able to do justice for both even though he didn't put it in this way but that is what he is seeing at that point of time so there I might not understand what he exactly sees but I just know that he is going through an emotional you know roller coaster having both and being in a place where he is not able to decide what he wants to do so I want to know how do we put it across where you really not been in that place I can't understand him being I mean having an affair or being in double relationship because I haven't been there so how do we channel that kind of tough situations question so one of the things that so what you are saying is I can't imagine being in a state like that and how do I understand him well enough to know where he is at so it is perfectly okay to say that you are not able to comprehend what it means to have this affair as well as your wife you are not able to comprehend because you may not know how he feels until you ask him so it is okay to say at this point of time I can't comprehend what it is for you to have a wife as well as have a lover and want to keeping both I am not able to comprehend that but I would like to understand a little bit more about what this means to you what does this mean to you having both of them in your life with the stress of knowing that your wife is unacceptable to this relationship but your desire of understanding her so actually asking him that will probably are you there so just doing that will open up a conversation that helps you to hear from Anand what it means so when you are coming to a place of understanding you are not understanding it for yourself but you are clarifying that understanding for Anand so you may be saying Anand I can't comprehend what it means for you to have two women like this but what does it mean to you or what does it feel like for you to have your wife who is vehemently against this and to have your lover who wants all of you what does that feel like for you so you are actually helping him clarify something as well because he may come to understand okay I have not thought about this actually quite stressful this is not an easy job to have a wife and have a lover having one not accept maybe having the other pushing me towards it so while you are making the understanding for yourself you are actually also going to be helping Anand to discover that for himself that may help him see a little bit more light into his situation did you get that Ravali do you have any questions thoughts Ravali Ravali can't hear you okay Ravali we can't hear you okay I just wanted to probably also put some of the things you know some of the skills that we have learnt some things that Ravali put into practice what all do you think she put into practice did she attend well she saw Anand doing you know not Anand sorry Angel having heart attack and crying and all of that and she saw it okay and then she really bought about that right she was very keenly observing you alright did she listen well did she respond to your feelings you said I see that you are feeling really broken you are really upset right so she responded her questions did she ask questions well enough yeah that made you all to think or figure out a situation right okay so those were definitely and I know we didn't progress further into influencing and all of that but nevertheless I think she she did get this extremely well okay alright thank you thank you Angel for all the drama and Anand for making up the story and Ravali excellent job great okay alright we have another 10 minutes do you all have any questions if not we can close today any questions any thoughts so something maybe I think I will probably just add one or two things something that I may ask Angel and Anand is okay since you both came in here for counselling maybe that's something I would want to know from Anand since you both came in for counselling what is the best way what would you like me to do to help you right because it would it would help him think about what he would like right so that's maybe a question that that I'd ask you don't have to answer that's a question that I may ask the second thing that I may ask is I'd like maybe again to Anand is you know I do see you have a you really want to keep your wife and your girlfriend what do you think are some of the challenges that you may face as a result of keeping both of them in your life what do you think so I want him to come to a place of really understand what could be the positive or the negative he's not come to think of the negatives so what could be some challenges maybe I will bring about what do you think others around your family that is your parents what what opinion would they have of you keeping two women together right so these are things that would help him to think and also to Angel because she said if she keeps her I will die I will kill I will kill both of them he said I will kill both of them so maybe asking you know bringing about she may be saying it in that overwhelm and that emotion but when you when it comes down and or when it tones down probably asking some something like if you looked at the solution of dealing with this apart from killing Anand then her what would be another thing that you would do if Anand continues to want to stay with this girl and you right so you're what you're trying to help her is to look at another solution or something more rational rather than I will kill Anand then I will kill thing it may have come from an emotional state so once that is down I'll say apart from that thing that you said if there was another choice of doing something else what would you do Angel right so it gives them ways of how to think then maybe Angel will say I'm going to go tell his parents or I'm going to do something else so that that that's more a you're generating a solution to help them to come to terms come to a come to a practical solution okay rather than you know this thing this issue of dying or issue of killing right so these may be two additional questions of the hat that I can think of that you know I may ask anyone else things of another question that you could probably ask to engage them to think anybody else Shri Radha Nikhil Nina any other question okay there's nothing it's okay alright no other questions from anyone if not we'll just close with a word of prayer thank you actors alright let's just pray thank you Lord once again for where you've placed us Lord we truly need your wisdom and guidance to deal with people who are hurting father we pray that you will keep us sensitive you will keep us in love you will keep us not judgmental or biased towards others and their challenges but Lord you will give us a heart of compassion a heart Lord that really desires to see situations being changed Holy Spirit we pray that you will guide us through each of this build the skills within us even as we get talking to others get discussing I pray God that you will bring to our minds help us recall the things we've learned things we've studied thank you once again for your grace over each of our lives in Jesus name amen thank you thank you everybody here there is sorting out happening and love back in action okay I leave them bye bye see you