 Exciting on a Thursday afternoon. This is Think Tech Hawaii, I'm Jay Fiedel. This is the military in Hawaii. We have Noa Lani-Kalipi and we have Greg Fleming. We're going to talk about Pahaka Loa, which is one of my favorite subjects because my heart lives on the Big Island, and I know Noa Lani that yours does too, doesn't it? Absolutely, yes. How about you, Greg? Are you a Big Island person deep down? I absolutely am. I love the Big Island and I've got family here with us, son and daughter-in-law, and grandchildren living on the island as well, so it is our home. I get it, Greg. You're association with Pahaka Loa training camp, training, training, what is it? PT. Training area. Training area. It sounds like the parents' teachers' association, but we're not going to go there. I get it, but can you give a short bio of where you've been in the army? I know you've been a lot of places for decades, so we're going to have to do this in like one or two minutes. Yeah, I came in in the late 1970s, joined the army, and I spent 24 years on active duty as an engineer officer. Then I retired and I moved over to the civilian side, so I'm an army civilian, all totaled about 40-plus years of professional experience working with the army, and right now I'm stationed and supporting US Army Garrison Pahaka Loa here at Pahaka Loa training area. It's in the center of the island, nestled between both Manilao and Mauna Kea. Under what, Colonel Boris is it? Yes, and I would just say on behalf of Lieutenant Colonel JR, Boris team Command Sergeant Major Will Gray. Thanks for having us. They were not able to be here today. They're Alf Island and they're over at Koalave, and looking at sites there on Koalave, and they're not available. Okay. I asked you before, if you could just give us a minute or two on what you don't do. That's funny. Thank you. Why don't you give us a minute or two on what you're doing these days, because I know you're doing a lot of things. Sure. In my capacity for this afternoon, I've been helping the Army with a community-based facilitation process for improving relationships between community and Army about Pahaka Loa training area. I have my own company, a consulting firm, Kalipea Enterprises, and then my full-time job is working in renewable energy for progression energy. You're a lawyer too. We know that. Let's talk about Pahaka Loa. I mean, it is a beautiful area there. I used to go hiking up in the saddle road. If you go in the south side of the saddle road, or walk right up to the top of Mono Loa, one of the most beautiful hikes in Hawai'ian, and up the top is 13,200 and some odd feet, and the outhouse there looks into the crater. It's the most fabulous outhouse in the world, with a view that you cannot miss. But that's not actually Pahaka Loa. You have to go down into the saddle road and over to the north side and up the hill, and there's Pahaka Loa. And it's been there for a long time. It's an Army training area. It's still there. It has a history. Greg, can you talk about the history of Pahaka Loa? Absolutely. It's a great summary though, Jay. The garrison itself was established in 1956 under the executive orders of then the territorial governor of Hawaii. It established the garrison, and the garrison was constructed using leftover Korean war materials. And we did that using troop construction, both Army soldiers and Marines built the quans. It had said, if you drive by today, you can still see them. So they're going on 70-plus years old and they're in need of replacement and repair. All total, we have 133,000 acres. We're a PTA that equates to about 210 square miles. Little known fact, 210 square miles is the size of Guam. So Pahaka Loa training area, as it sits here in the Uhumuulu region, the saddle region area is about the size of Guam. And you have a couple of hundred permanent staff up there. What is, what kind of a job is it for them? What do they do? We do. We only have five military, five uniform military as part of the garrison. They're permanently stationed here. We get the work done, the base support, through 230 civilians, whether that's our civilians or full-time contractors and cooperators that sit here at PTA and support garrison operations. And those people are generally from the community. So we're part of the local communities here on the island. You know, while the military will change out about every two years, the civilian workforce has been here. It's a permanent thing. Been here for years with a great deal of experience in professionalism and supporting PTA. So you're training what? All branches of all services. Who are you training in? And in what way are you training them? We do. So the folks that train at PTA are not just Army. We have other than Army or Marines, Air Force, some Navy and special forces come here to train. They do that here at PTA because at their home stations, particularly on Oahu, they just don't have the space and the ranges to fire the weapons systems that they have. They have to come here to PTA to fire the weapons as if they were in combat to the max range of the weapons systems, the max capacity. Just like with the aircraft, aircraft can fly on Oahu, but it lacks sufficient airspace to do what they need to do. It's just not enough of it on Oahu. So they come here and use the airspace above PTA to do those maneuvers with the MV-22 Ospreys and the helicopters that you'll see should drive by PTA. So this is infantry. Is it the Air National Guard involved? Coast Guard? Are they all involved in some way? Absolutely. And most importantly, the Army National Guard and Army Air National Guard that are from Hawaii, they come here to train. It's critically important that those young men and women learn how to fire their weapons systems, qualify with their weapons. What they do here will save lives in combat. This is where they train and develop those skills that they'll need later on. So it's important that we take care of those men and women before they deploy elsewhere in the world. Sure. It is a wide variety of the branches, Jay. So we do have infantry, armor, aviation, all branches. Engineers will come out here. The MPs are out here, military police. So it's across all branches, all segments of the military. Are you a trainer? I'm in the capacity I am now I'm the deputy garrison commander. So I'm really responsible for the civilians here working at the installation and supporting the commander and his objectives and goals and supporting the units as they deploy to PTA. And it is a deployment from Oahu or elsewhere in the world and making sure they get what they need to get here, train safely and go home. So that's what the garrison does. It supports the training that's going on here. So you have courses and classes and graduations and certificates and the like. No, it's not like that at all. It's really unit level training as well as some individuals. So soldiers or Marines will qualify with their individual weapons at our ranges. And then they'll gradually move up into squad level or larger organizations for training together as teams. And they can get up to a company level operations on some of our ranges and also involve different aspects of the military. So you might be an infantryman that's training with or alongside of artillerymen firing their artillery on objectives that are working with aviation or aircraft both rotary wing or helicopters and fixed wing aircraft that'll fly over and drop ordnance. And they learn how to use all of those in a concerted fashion to achieve an objective. So that's where this sort of combined arms training occurs is here at PTA. Well, let's turn to Noelani. Have you been up there, Noelani? Have you participated? Have you walked the perimeter, so to speak to see what's going on? Yes, I've been up there. When back when I was a military legislative assistant for Senator Akaka, I was when I was first given the tours at Pohakulua. And then as a resident back here, I've participated in some meetings on the installation. Well, when were you with Senator Akaka? I saw that in your bio, because I was in his office in 2000, 2001. You might have been there as a staffer. Were you there as a staffer then? Yeah, I staffed the meeting, Jay. Okay, I knew there was a certain magnetism between us. Yeah, I was there from 1999 to 2006. Yeah, perfect, perfect. We go back, don't we? Yes, we do. Yeah, we're having a moment if you don't mind, Greg. That's fun. So Noelani, what is going on between the community and Pohakulua? I mean, you suggest that maybe there was an issue, or there could be an issue, and you're there to avoid an issue, or at least to improve relationships to the extent, because it's not always, you know, the beautiful island of Big Island is beautiful. And yet there are controversies about so many things. It would not surprise me a lot to find that those controversies included Pohakulua. Has it ever happened? Well, definitely. I think there's always been longstanding issues for a number of things on the Big Island. And my involvement goes back, like I said, when I was working with Senator Akaka's office in DC, I was the legislative staffer who handled both the native Hawaiian issues, as well as the military issues. So I often had an opportunity to bridge the gap, if you would say, and speak to people on all sides of the many issues and concerns that were there. My involvement now is via the Military Affairs Council for the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii. For a number of years, we were talking about, notwithstanding the number of issues that just have been ongoing, how can we create a process for a community to just have talk story sessions with the Army on a, you know, outside of a regulatory process, outside of a permitting office, really to build relationship and just to have the time to ask the questions that you never get to ask and to have the dialogue that you never get to have when each participant is only given three minutes in a session as an example. So really that's what we have spent the last few years coming together and trying to figure out how to do. So I've been fortunate to be a part of a large number of people working to put that together. You know, it's very important. It's not only important on the Big Island, not only important, you know, between the people in the Big Island and the people at Pohakaloa. It's important in the country that people appreciate that yes, we do have a military. Yes, we have a federal government. Yes, we should know them. They are us, we are them. They're all together in this country. And I think that's what you're doing. I mean, and that's what we're doing here on Think Tech, you know, to try to talk to the military and make people understand that, you know, they're part of us and we're part of them. So they should know what's going on. So what is going on in terms of the community and the Army at Pohakaloa and all the training? You have meetings, you have gatherings. I saw you had a big, may I say, party this spring. What was that like? Well, we didn't necessarily have a party in what we were doing. We had to do everything virtually because... A virtual party. Right, right. And so we actually kicked off something called the Kahoahoa process, which is a community-driven process. And we spent the first six weeks meeting only about how are we gonna talk story together? What is the process? What do we share in terms of values and what are our agreements? We all acknowledge that there are some issues that can be resolved relatively quickly and then there are some issues that will take a very long time, right? And there are some issues that we're super mad about and some issues that we're like, ah, okay, right. And so understanding that range and understanding the many people who could be a part of it, what do we share in terms of values and being there and what are our agreements? So the first six weeks were just about how do we engage as humans together, right? And then we moved into a stage of, let's start talking about some of the issues and let's use the agreements we came up with. So that's what we've been doing. It's super early in the process. And I'd say we're having the space to have some pretty good dialogue between military members and people within the community, all aspects, whether it's business, whether it's cultural practitioners, whether it's people who are just curious, educators, et cetera. You're kind of a facilitator then. Yes, I'm a team of us are facilitating, yes. You know, it's not too far from TMT. Now that I think about it, it's across the way. Is there a parallel there of any kind? I think in general there's a parallel throughout our country as you indicated, right? I think there's a lot of polarization, period that's happening, and we're becoming conditioned to having to pick sides. What the work that we're doing is trying to create that space that says, okay, you can have your positions, but let's be curious. Let's hold our positions. Nobody's making us change our T-shirt color, but let's find out what the deal is. Let's actually begin to talk and let's see if we can find some commonality and let's agree to disagree, but let's figure out are there anything, are there things we can agree upon together as we build relationship and then kind of scaffold that approach, right? As we build our trust, as we demonstrate to each other that we're not gonna slap each other down when nobody's looking, right? How do we move together, right? And a lot of the commonality is the love that Hoi Island people have for this island, for our Aina, for each other, for our family. We live on an island, we're all related to each other, right? So how do we acknowledge that and figure out how we move forward together? And that's really what this is about. So it was not really a party at all, was it? It was an engagement. It was a connection, so to speak. And would you say it was successful? Would you say that at the end, people were more Akamai about the together of it than they were at the beginning? I think we have a lot of people who are pleasantly surprised at the level of discussion that we're currently engaging in, right? But we're still only at the beginning. Like if this were kindergarten to senior year in high school, we're still in first grade, right? We're still just feeling each other out, figuring out when we get to talk and all of that. So I'd say people are pleasantly surprised in the amount of sharing, in the amount of space that's been given for the diversity of opinion. So that part has been good. Yeah, great. So how does this look from your end of it, Greg? I mean, would you prefer to be left alone? Would you prefer not to engage with the sort of the cultural aspects of the Big Island and just go do your army and military training thing? Why do this? And how well does it work on your side of it? Well, thanks for asking. We are engaged already. And I appreciate all the efforts that Noe and her group has done. I totally appreciate getting to know each other. I think here on this island, things work out in a very personal way and understanding who you're speaking with and understanding others out there. It goes a long way to dissolving differences and approaches to problem sets. When I say that we're already involved, that we are, we want to be good stewards of the environment. And we strive to do that. We have a great investment in both our cultural resources program and our natural resources program. Spend roughly three to $5 million annually on those two programs. We manage 26 threatened endangered species here at PTA. There are six animal species that we manage and 20 plant species. Some of those plants are only found here on the island of Hawaii. And one was thought to be previously extinct. And we go through a conservation process to manage those, to protect them as we continue our training. However, we're very conscientious about doing that, but not in a way that would stop the training that we want to get done. We also manage approximately 1200 different historic sites that we look at and throughout PTA. So we're already involved in that. We want to be good members of the community. We live in the community, the folks that I mentioned previously, they live on all sides of the island and they're out in the communities and they're part of the community. So we want to work things out and the things that we talked about with Noe and her group, we want to come to a solution set. What's your role there? More than ever, the military had diplomats, they're not only diplomats here, they're diplomats everywhere. And I hope in the future, that becomes more and more the case. To fully understand the world as it is, you have to be a diplomat. Noe is certainly a diplomat. So, if I asked you, Alani, what do you want from Pohaka Loa? What do you want from them? Why do you spend the time talking to them? What's your goal, your purpose in facilitating these discussions? I think it's to shift the model. Instead of discussions only being when there's a regulatory action, if Pohaka Loa is to be a part of the community, let's really engage as community and let's put that in the hands of the community. There's a lot of change over that happens when military leaders move in and out and communities still talking about something and it becomes the third commander that you have to explain this to, right? Same thing with community members moving in and out. If we can have some continuity, that would really go a long way. Again, it's the bridging of the gap, right? It's creating a space to be able to have these sometimes difficult conversations and to know it's okay. It's not threatening, right? Because then, Jay, I think that in addition to Pohaka Loa, there are many other issues that we can talk about, but if we can empower community to work with government, to work with entities, we can find the pathway to move forward. Yeah, especially now. I think a lot of people walk around in the state of Hawaii and they say, we could have a bad storm, we could have extreme weather and don't worry because the military is here and they'll take care of us. Other people say, no, they got their own mission. They're gonna do their own mission first, but the answer is it's both missions and it would be a very important contribution to the community when there is an extreme situation and the military. You know, the Navy, the United States Navy came to Pearl Harbor in, guess what year, 1850. They were there with Pearl, the predecessor of Pearl Harbor today in 1850. They are as much a part of the culture of Hawaii, the economic development of Hawaii, the matrix of Hawaii, if you will, as anybody. I mean, they've been here. And so it's the same here. I think sometimes we forget that. And then the events, like the Massey case back in the 30s, that didn't help. And I suppose all the military that was assigned here in World War II, that might not have helped either because it did, it put a certain stress on the community at the time. So now the mission is to keep them together and I think it's very worthy. And the question, you know, one thing that I mentioned that I think is worth asking you about Greg, you know, the problem is that the military comes and goes. Everybody is on a rotation. Everybody soon enough is out of here. And so you don't have the kind of continuity where people are laying down personal roots. They're always on the move in and out. How do you, what do you answer to that? How do you, you know, how can you deal with the fact that it's a rotation? It's musical people. Just acknowledge that. That is the life of the military. I was part of that. No, he was part of it. Where you have to rotate from one unit to the next. However, what you have just below that, the level of the military, the civilian staff that I mentioned, I mentioned only five military uniform folks here at PTA. The rest are all civilians. And I'm the senior civilian here of the continuity between the command teams that rotate through. And those are the folks that have roots here that have continuity from one commander to the next over time. It can make sure that the programs that we've initiated from one commander carry on through to the next. So that's the civilian leadership that remains. Yeah, that's a really good point. The other thing is that, you know, you occupy a lot of land as what you said. As a matter of fact, the federal enclave in that area goes down to what KMC, a killer military camp, she gets to spend time there, it's beautiful there. It's just still as luscious as it used to be. No, you get there too. It's really nice, Oak Club Fabulous. Yes, it's the only bowling alley on the east side of the island. There you go. But you know, there's a lot of land and then at the same time, you know, you have alternative uses of the land for energy. And there's a fellow named Don Thomas works in SOAS at the university who discovered water up way up there, not too far from Pohakaloa water in Monaca, inside the mountain. And you know, one of these days we may have to tap into that. It's another aquifer, an elevated aquifer. It's quite remarkable and good for him for finding it. But you know, if that happens and other people want that land, what happens to the, you know, the federal enclave, Greg? You think it's at risk over time? I can't speak to over time as to what will happen to the federal enclave, the property. But I do know Dr. Don Thomas very well. And oh, by the way, he found that water drilling here on PTA just a couple hundred feet from my office right now. Fabulous. Funded by the Army. So we saw the efficacy of what Don Thomas was doing at the high level water near Hilo in the wells there and followed his sort of theory on water being captured up here in the Huma Hula region. We funded that. Yes, there is water here. And it's good clean water. It's about 10,000 years old. So there's some issues that go along with that. And I understand it makes it better martini. Anything over 5,000 years old makes it better martini. Yeah, maybe I'm not sure about that. But, you know, again, for the Army's perspective, we want to be engaged with the local committees. We want to give back. So, you know, we wouldn't see it as being or owning the water necessarily solely for the Army use. That would be a shared shared use by the community. I know there's some thoughts on that by senior leaders about if we were to drill a well and have the water made available that would go out to local communities as well. I mean, that's sort of the technology we would use to do that, how we got there and then the water itself. So that's out there. But also, and I want to make a point of the engagement. You talked about the number of pieces of land here on the island of Hawaii. Kilauea military camp. Yes, great facility. Take advantage of that and use the facility there. In Kauaihai Harbor, you mentioned the harbor there. And that's how we bring in all the equipment from units deploying. But for outreach to the community, we have a really good hunting program. And we allow folks to come on to our lands, hunts. There's an active hunting community here on the island. So they'll come out and use bow and arrows against the mammals. And then also, right now, we've got the turkey season going on. And there's some use of shotguns for turkeys and things like that. So we open that up to the public and to the hunting community. So we bring those folks in here on the insulation to do that. Yeah, you mentioned turkey season. Some people feel that we have a turkey season going on in Washington too. And I just wonder, we spoke briefly before the show began. I wonder if you could comment on my comment, my concern about the army and the role it plays under the Constitution and under the rules of the army. The traditions, the patriotic and constitutional conditions of the army in these difficult times. Sure. We spoke about the change in leadership, change in administration in Washington, DC and the goings on there now. I think the military always understand that they take a note to defend and support the Constitution of the United States, not any one individual. And it doesn't matter that there's a change of leadership going on, change of administration in Washington, DC. It's the fact that we still support and defend the Constitution. And so that's a perspective that all members of the armed services come from. And so that really what's going on there does not affect what we do here to train. We have a responsibility to train those young men and women I talked about previously, particularly those from the state of Hawaii to be the most proficient they can in their craft. So when they are deployed and put in harm's way, they can come back to us whole. And that's really why we're here. How do you feel? I mean, different people would answer this differently, but how do you feel about the quality and capability of the American military force in today's world? Where other countries are trying real hard to build competitive forces? It has been for years. And I think it truly is the best professional military force in the world without question. You know, I've seen it, it's probably at its lowest point in the late 70s, just after Vietnam. And there were issues inside the military and our formations that has long since gone away. We have some of the most educated young people, some soldiers out there. And I'm very, very proud of what they do here and abroad. And I think it's just, it's a testimony to everyone all across the formations and all services that we have the best military without question. That's great. Yes, I totally agree. So, Noelle, are you ready to, you know, have another career? Maybe as a JAG officer? I can put you in touch with Greg, if you like. She's got a job. Been there, done that. Thank you. Oh, okay, okay. So, Noelle, what do you see is the future of all this? I mean, you know, it's part of our history. It's certainly part of the history of the Big Island. It's a lot of land, a lot of activity. And it does need connection with the people around in the island, everyone in the island should know and have a kind of affinity for this particular, you know, localities. It's beautiful and it's also magnetic in its own way. It has a history. So the question is, you know, over time, do you see, what do you see in the future? Do you see people who will covet this land, people who will find this land sacred, people who will want this land for other purposes? Do you see that? What do you see in the future, in terms of the relationship of the state, the Big Island and Poa Haka Loa? Well, I think there's a lot of people who see the land as sacred now, right? And who have special affinity to that land, whether they're military members who have survived contingency situations because of their training there and they feel like, but for the mana that they had from when they were training and what they learned, you know, they wouldn't be walking around today to the cultural practitioners who see that area as a source, you know, and as a special place. I mean, there's a lot of affinity for that. I think the key thing is Poa Haka Loa is a microcosm, right? Of many parts of what we're talking about given the long-standing issues resulting from the overthrow, given some, a lot of the things we have to address as we move forward as a state, you know, Senator Haka talked about the reconciliation process. That was a big part of the apology resolution and bringing people together. And this is a continuation, you know, of that idea and that concept of being able to discuss, of being able to share information. I think human nature, lots of psychological reports will talk about the fact that when there's an absence or a vacuum of information, humans tend to think the worst, right? So as long as there's not information going both ways, we're gonna act based on the assumptions based on our, of what we believe, not necessarily based on the facts. If we can begin to share that information, it becomes that much more important so that we're moving forward, right? And that's what I really see as a future, Jay. I mean, we can either stay in our silos and move on what we believe without actually engaging or we can begin to engage and figure things out as we move forward. Everybody has a special affinity for every part of the island and for part of our state. And we all feel a large kuleana for what the future looks like for future generations. Just hold the road down. You know, the saddle road was improved a few years ago. There's no need to make it a six-lane highway, all right? Agreed, agreed. Well, we're almost out of time. In fact, we are out of time. And I want to ask you guys for final comments, messages that you'd like to leave with our viewers. You know, little pearls of wisdom or big ones would be appropriate. Greg, you first. I just want to let you know that everyone up here that works here, trains here, we are part of the local communities and we do have work that's ongoing to renovate those Quonset huts. So we do bring in folks to work our contracts we have one going on right now for 15 plus million dollars to take down the first two rows of Quonsets. In the past five years, since I've been here, we've put in at least $74 million with the projects. We're going to continue to do so as we modernize facilities and improve the throughput or the capacity of our ranges. It's a great thing to see that we have folks here on the island coming up and making their livelihoods at PTA and then going back home. We really, really see that as a positive thing. And also we do reach out. We have a mutual aid agreement between our police, PTA, or excuse me, fire, PTA fire and emergency services. They are responsible for responding to any accident or incident along Saddle Road, Daniel K. Inouye Highway, and they're responsible for responding to anything between the top of Manukae and the top of Manaloa. They cover 420 square miles of response areas. So if you have an accident or have an incident in that area, it's going to be PTA Army fire and emergency services that are going to respond. So I need to let folks know that, that we are part of the community. We're reaching outside the fence line. And we want to encourage and through the process that Inouye has worked those relationships and come to some neutral and agreed upon solutions. So thank you for having us. Thank you, Greg. And Inouye, could you give us your thoughts that you would like to leave with us? Pearls of wisdom will be accepted. I wish I had those. But in general, it's just that community can be empowered. We can have discussions. We can hold the space. And so often we're taught that you have to choose a side. And while it's important to have your beliefs, I know you can use curiosity. You can engage in discussions. And I think there's a big future forward for everyone through collaboration. Here and everywhere in the country, we have to come back together again. That's what you guys are saying. So really appreciate your efforts in that regard. Both sides of the coin and it's great what you're doing. Thank you, Inouye. Thank you, Greg. I hope we can do this show again. Aloha.